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To Tip - Or Not?
http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322
Why Tips Won Theyre outdated. Theyre discriminatory. And they arent going anywhere. By Nikita Richardson "In early 2015, Thad Vogler became an unwitting pioneer of the movement to eliminate tipping at restaurants. Vogler, who owns Bar Agricole and Trou Normand in San Francisco, had worked and traveled throughout Europe and Asia, where he loved the convenience and lack of pretense that came from restaurant pricing in which service was already included. Less than a year into his experiment, he found himself struggling with the consequences of a tip-free dining room: His staff was in a constant state of flux, and he would routinely attack anyone who expressed even the slightest bit of doubt about his new policy. I started to feel like Stalin, Vogler says. I was being a total ideologue. After nine months of being tip-free, he knew something needed to be done. I said to my managers, "If we could switch back tomorrow, would you want to do it? Vogler remembers. Literally, one of them started to cry, she was so relieved. When Danny Meyer announced in October 2015 that he would eliminate tipping at all of his restaurants, the idea was hailed as a move that would save the hospitality industry, and other big-name restaurateurs Tom Colicchio, David Chang adopted similar tip-free models at some of their own establishments. The moves made national headlines.. There was this idea that it was inevitable, and a huge groundswell, Vogler says. But that was bullshit it wasnt catching on, and it was very difficult. As much as I agree and I believe in the principle, it was too hard. The no-tipping policy lasted just six months at Changs Momofuku Nishi. Claus Meyer, a Noma co-founder, announced in February that he was ending the no-tipping policy at his own New York restaurant, Agern, after two years, citing slow business as a result of the higher menu prices. Gabe Stulman reversed course at his restaurant, Fedora, after four months without tips, telling Eater that guests were ordering less food than they had before. And last week, Andrew Tarlow the owner of Brooklyn restaurants like Romans and Diner revealed to his staff in an email that the no-tipping policies at his businesses had created new challenges that we are unable to sustainably resolve. Ultimately, we ended up serving an ideal at the expense of taking care of you, our staff, which is a trade-off I didnt fully anticipate and am unwilling to continue to make. Andrew was very disappointed, says an employee of Tarlows restaurant group, Marlow Collective, who asked to remain anonymous. But when we went to non-tipping, we pretty much lost our entire staff that had been there for ten years. He wanted to make it work, but it just became really difficult. Tip-free dining was supposed to be the future of dining in New York and beyond. Instead, many owners are now scrambling to revert to the old way of doing things. There are holdouts especially in the upper echelons of the fine-dining world but it has become clear in just over three years that, for the time being, they will remain the overwhelming exceptions, not the rule. Heres why. Staff turnover becomes too difficult to manage. Theres not a more important stakeholder to get right than our staff, Meyer told Eater in 2015. His tip-free model, called Hospitality Included, he said is absolutely going to be a win for cooks. Its going to be a win for entry-level managers. By eliminating tips, Meyer suggested he would be able to free front-of-house staff from kowtowing to the whims of finicky customers, better protect them from racism and sexual harassment among diners, and give them a sense of financial stability, since theyd get paid regardless of how busy the restaurant was. Meanwhile, by raising menu prices and thus revenues, the extra money would go toward higher wages for kitchen staff, who could start making $12 to $15 an hour at a time when the state minimum wage was $8.75. But, it turned out, many front-of-house staffers were more concerned with making money than with maintaining the moral high ground. This February, Meyer admitted that he had lost 30 to 40 percent of his legacy staffers since 2015. (One Meyer employee told Grub last year that her wages dropped from $60,000 per year to $50,000 under the new policy.) While he insisted that the employees that replaced them understand "Hospitality Included and are thrilled about it, added employee attrition in an industry where turnover is already 1.5 times that of the private sector average has to hurt. You just get a better, well-adjusted employee with tipping, said the anonymous Marlow Collective employee. Theyre more focused and they get that instant gratification. Before we even announced anything, there was buzzing about a return to tips. People were like, "Is it true, is it true? And, yes, people were very happy. Without widespread buy-in from other restaurants, its just too easy for front-of-house workers to leave to make more money elsewhere. About 40 percent of our servers were like, "Hey, this is awesome, but Im going to go to State Bird Provisions, where I can make 10 percent more, Vogler says. And who doesnt want to make 10 percent more? Theyre not freedom fighters. Without tips, prices look higher, and customers balk. When restaurants adopt tip-included pricing, they necessarily have to raise menu prices, often by 20 percent. Customers, in turn, struggle to adjust to the new gratuity-included prices. Even though the cost of the dinner is going to be the same at the end, or pretty close to it, that initial reaction makes it look like its going to be more expensive, says Amanda Cohen of Dirt Candy, the Lower East Side restaurant that remains tip-free. Ive found myself standing outside the restaurant when someone is looking at the menu and going, "Dont worry, tips included.. But you cant explain it to everybody. In a 2018 study published in The Journal of Hospitality Management, Michael Lynn, a professor of food and beverage management at Cornell, noted that tipping is a form of price-partitioning that reduces perceptions of expensiveness even when it does not affect the actual total costs of eating out, so replacing tipping with service inclusive pricing may decrease consumers perceptions of value. In other words: the food just feels more expensive. Cohen also believes this perception feeds into a bigger misconception among diners and restaurateurs about the real cost of running a restaurant, which is more expensive than ever before. Sticking with no tips is her way of planning for an inevitable future in which front-of-house staffers will legally have to be paid at least $15 an hour instead of the measly $10 to $11 an hour currently required by New York State law. (Federally, the tipped minimum wage is $2.13/hour.) The tipped minimum wage isnt going to stay where it is forever, she says. It was so crappy and thats how we were able to make these bigger profit margins and now were seeing it rise and our profit margins are getting smaller and smaller. We allowed that to happen because it was good for business and now all the big restaurant groups are like, "The minimum wage thing is really hurting us. Well, of course, it is. For better or worse, tips make customers feel empowered. Generally speaking, Americans hated the practice of tipping when it was first introduced in the late 19th century, perceiving it as a form of bribery for service workers who should simply do their jobs. But as weve adjusted to it, tipping has become undeniably intertwined with a sense of power. Short of walking into the kitchen and telling off the chef, tipping is the easiest way to express satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a dining experience. Without it, diners will look for another way to voice their opinions. Lynn published a study this year in which he analyzed restaurant reviews for 18 Joes Crab Shack locations that went tip-free in 2015. His finding: Shacks with a no-tipping policy received ratings on Google Reviews and Yelp that were 0.24 to 0.45 points lower than locations with tipping in place. Online consumer reviewers were happier with restaurant experiences when the restaurant had a tipping system than when it had a no-tipping, service-inclusive pricing system, Lynn wrote. Without the obligation to tip, a minor annoyance, like a partially-forgotten order or a drink thats slow to arrive, can feel like a wrong that cant be righted. Others still may view tips as the most direct form of showering praise, and restaurant operators who have eliminated tips tell Grub Street that diners will nevertheless try to leave tips on a regular basis. The habit of tipping in this country among customers is incredibly ingrained, says New York restaurant critic Adam Platt. People dont even trust places where they cant tip. And its a habit that for restaurant owners, too, is extremely hard to kick. Will there ever be a way to make no-tipping policies work? By and large, hospitality industry workers agree that the practice of tipping allows racism, sexism, and classism to flourish in restaurants, and there will always be operators who are willing to fight back. This is one of the hardest things Ive ever done in a restaurant, but Im sticking to it, Cohen says. I do not judge anybody for giving up on it and wanting to be more profitable or not close. We knew it was always going to be hard, but morally, for me, it was the right thing to do. But industry observers like Saru Jayaraman, the co-founder and co-director of the Restaurant Opportunities Centers United and the director of the Food Labor Research Center at UC Berkeley, hope this conversation will become moot once we get rid of the tipped minimum wage altogether. Danny Meyer and Andrew Tarlow wanted to go one step beyond and eliminate tipping altogether, Jayaraman says. But its challenging to do that on your own without a policy change that requires everyone to be paid a full minimum wage. That policy change has never been closer to fruition than it is now. In March 2018, President Trump signed the Consolidated Appropriations Act into law. It includes a provision that allows restaurant owners that pay front- and back-of-house employees full minimum wage to pool tips and split them between all employees. (Previously, tips were the sole property of front-of-house employees.) Meanwhile, eight U.S. states (MI, NV, CA, AK, MT, MN, WA, and OR) are now so-called One Fair Wage states, where tipped minimum wages have been eliminated. Twelve more states, including New Jersey, have similar bills in the works, and in New York, the Department of Labor held public hearings on the issue from April to June and will soon submit its findings to Governor Andrew Cuomo for consideration. Until then, restaurant owners are trying to find creative solutions to problems that have festered for too long. After Vogler brought tipping back, for example, he continued to pay back-of-house workers their higher wage and pared down front-of-house labor accordingly (he has one less manager than before). It was liberating to kind of eat a plate of shit and say, "Well, okay, were going back, Vogler explains, of returning to tipping. A friend of mine in the industry says, "Were in this business to innovate on the level of food, drink, and service, not to reinvent compensation. </> |
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Posted to rec.food.cooking
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 2018-12-07 9:43 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> This whole 'tipping vs wage' seems like a solution looking for a > problem.* No one is forcing anyone to work in a restaurant like > indentured servants, and I've seen that when they leave, it's often > to go work at some other restaurant.* It's a bit like working on > commission.* Do your job well and you'll make more money. If only. I have known a few people who are almost guaranteed not to tip. Servers would have to hover over them and kiss their assesses to get 5% tip. One guy actually got caught sneaking back to the table and taking tips that the other guys had left. I am all for tacking the service onto the bill and not leaving the servers remuneration up to the generosity of the diner. |
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To Tip - Or Not? PING BRUCE
On 2018-12-06 6:24 p.m., GM wrote:
> http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 > Is there still a non-tipping culture in Australia? |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 12/7/2018 5:18 AM, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes wrote:
> > What annoys me is the establishments which deliberately pay only minimum > legal wages because they assume the staff will get tips. > > I do not leave a tip, unless I have been really pleased with the service; and > that doesnt mean staff coming over every 5 minutes to ask if everything is > ok with my meal. In fact that over-attentive attitude will put me off giving > a tip. > > I cant describe the exact service which will lead me to leave a tip, but > it comes from the overall ambience and the feeling that I am a valued > customer and not just another table to be waited upon. > > I do realise that many restaurant customers can be nothing but a pain and > make unreasonable demands on the staff. Some appear to be complaining on a > regular basis merely in order to try and get free meals; but we are not all > like that. > > In the US, may places pay a meager wage and tipping is minimal. I'm talking about a coffee shop type place where you go to a counter for service. It is OK not to tip there but many will leave the change. Sit down restaurants are all sub minimum wage for servers and tipping is expected. A tip of 15% to 20% is normal and expected for decent service. Staff can make a good living in the right places. To not tip at least a minimal amount for acceptable service would be ignorant. You should not go to a restaurant knowing a tip is part of the server's wage. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 12/7/2018 10:51 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2018-12-07 9:43 AM, Nancy Young wrote: > >> This whole 'tipping vs wage' seems like a solution looking for a >> problem.* No one is forcing anyone to work in a restaurant like >> indentured servants, and I've seen that when they leave, it's often >> to go work at some other restaurant.* It's a bit like working on >> commission.* Do your job well and you'll make more money. > > If only. I have known a few people who are almost guaranteed not to tip. > Servers would have to hover over them and kiss their assesses to get 5% > tip.* One guy actually got caught sneaking back to the table and taking > tips that the other guys had left.* I am all for tacking the service > onto the bill and not leaving the servers remuneration up to the > generosity of the diner. I have come across cheap tippers but not no tippers. Either way, it's good to work somewhere they have more than one customer so it comes out okay. nancy |
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Posted to rec.food.cooking
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 7 Dec 2018, Dave Smith wrote
(in article >): > On 2018-12-07 9:43 AM, Nancy Young wrote: > > > This whole 'tipping vs wage' seems like a solution looking for a > > problem. No one is forcing anyone to work in a restaurant like > > indentured servants, and I've seen that when they leave, it's often > > to go work at some other restaurant. It's a bit like working on > > commission. Do your job well and you'll make more money. > > If only. I have known a few people who are almost guaranteed not to tip. > Servers would have to hover over them and kiss their assesses to get 5% > tip. One guy actually got caught sneaking back to the table and taking > tips that the other guys had left. I am all for tacking the service > onto the bill and not leaving the servers remuneration up to the > generosity of the diner. In the UK, the complaints from the front of house staff to tacking a standard service charge on the bill, is that the staff rarely see that money as it goes straight through the company accounts and the restaurant owners were keeping it for themselves. |
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Posted to rec.food.cooking
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To Tip - Or Not? PING BRUCE
graham wrote:
> On 2018-12-06 6:24 p.m., GM wrote: > > http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 > > > > > Is there still a non-tipping culture in Australia? Well, I'm not in Oz, but I believe that is the case...Ozzies have a very "egalitarian" (e.g. "socialist"!) mindset and all...thus US -style tipping would be frowned upon, servers "Down Under" (as in much of the rest of the world) probably receive a "living wage", unlike the US... -- Best Greg On Friday, 7 December 2018 10:01:15 UTC-6, graham wrote: > On 2018-12-06 6:24 p.m., GM wrote: > > http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 > > > > > Is there still a non-tipping culture in Australia? On Friday, 7 December 2018 10:01:15 UTC-6, graham wrote: > On 2018-12-06 6:24 p.m., GM wrote: > > http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 > > > > > Is there still a non-tipping culture in Australia? On Friday, 7 December 2018 10:01:15 UTC-6, graham wrote: > On 2018-12-06 6:24 p.m., GM wrote: > > http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 > > > > > Is there still a non-tipping culture in Australia? |
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Posted to rec.food.cooking
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To Tip - Or Not? PING BRUCE
On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 09:01:12 -0700, graham > wrote:
>On 2018-12-06 6:24 p.m., GM wrote: >> http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 >> > > >Is there still a non-tipping culture in Australia? If it's a restaurant, where you pay at the end, we tip. If it's a pub, where you pay as you order, we don't. I don't think they raise an eyebrow if you don't tip, though. At least not that I can see. |
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Posted to rec.food.cooking
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To Tip - Or Not? PING BRUCE
On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 08:56:32 -0800 (PST), GM
> wrote: >graham wrote: > >> On 2018-12-06 6:24 p.m., GM wrote: >> > http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 >> > >> >> >> Is there still a non-tipping culture in Australia? > > >Well, I'm not in Oz, but I believe that is the case...Ozzies have a very "egalitarian" (e.g. "socialist"!) mindset and all...thus US -style tipping would be frowned upon, servers "Down Under" (as in much of the rest of the world) probably receive a "living wage", unlike the US... Australia's egalitarian in the sense that it's pretty classless, but I wouldn't call it socialist. It's a fairly right-wing capitalist country. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:04:07 GMT, Pamela >
wrote: >On 17:46 7 Dec 2018, Bruce > wrote in : > >> On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 17:14:47 GMT, Pamela > >> wrote: >> >>>Many years ago I was eating at Blooms Restaurant in London and after >>>we had eaten and left payment for the bill, one of the waiters came up >>>to the table and said to me my husband "It's customary for diners to >>>tip the waiting staff here, sir". >> >> "me my husband"? Are you starting to confuse yourself? > >It should read "my husband". Thanks. Although that isn't the point of >my post. I thought you were a guy. I still do, actually. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sat, 08 Dec 2018 05:06:59 +1100, Bruce >
wrote: >On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:04:07 GMT, Pamela > >wrote: > >>On 17:46 7 Dec 2018, Bruce > wrote in m: >> >>> On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 17:14:47 GMT, Pamela > >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Many years ago I was eating at Blooms Restaurant in London and after >>>>we had eaten and left payment for the bill, one of the waiters came up >>>>to the table and said to me my husband "It's customary for diners to >>>>tip the waiting staff here, sir". >>> >>> "me my husband"? Are you starting to confuse yourself? >> >>It should read "my husband". Thanks. Although that isn't the point of >>my post. > >I thought you were a guy. I still do, actually. Oh, wait. Guys can have husbands too these days. Sorry  |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 3:24:54 PM UTC-10, GM wrote:
> http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 > > > Why Tips Won Theyre outdated. Theyre discriminatory. And they arent going anywhere. > > By Nikita Richardson > > "In early 2015, Thad Vogler became an unwitting pioneer of the movement to eliminate tipping at restaurants. Vogler, who owns Bar Agricole and Trou Normand in San Francisco, had worked and traveled throughout Europe and Asia, where he loved the convenience and lack of pretense that came from restaurant pricing in which service was already included. Less than a year into his experiment, he found himself struggling with the consequences of a tip-free dining room: His staff was in a constant state of flux, and he would routinely attack anyone who expressed even the slightest bit of doubt about his new policy. I started to feel like Stalin, Vogler says. I was being a total ideologue. After nine months of being tip-free, he knew something needed to be done. > > I said to my managers, "If we could switch back tomorrow, would you want to do it? Vogler remembers. Literally, one of them started to cry, she was so relieved. > > When Danny Meyer announced in October 2015 that he would eliminate tipping at all of his restaurants, the idea was hailed as a move that would save the hospitality industry, and other big-name restaurateurs Tom Colicchio, David Chang adopted similar tip-free models at some of their own establishments. The moves made national headlines. There was this idea that it was inevitable, and a huge groundswell, Vogler says. But that was bullshit it wasnt catching on, and it was very difficult. As much as I agree and I believe in the principle, it was too hard. > > The no-tipping policy lasted just six months at Changs Momofuku Nishi. Claus Meyer, a Noma co-founder, announced in February that he was ending the no-tipping policy at his own New York restaurant, Agern, after two years, citing slow business as a result of the higher menu prices. Gabe Stulman reversed course at his restaurant, Fedora, after four months without tips, telling Eater that guests were ordering less food than they had before. And last week, Andrew Tarlow the owner of Brooklyn restaurants like Romans and Diner revealed to his staff in an email that the no-tipping policies at his businesses had created new challenges that we are unable to sustainably resolve. Ultimately, we ended up serving an ideal at the expense of taking care of you, our staff, which is a trade-off I didnt fully anticipate and am unwilling to continue to make. > > Andrew was very disappointed, says an employee of Tarlows restaurant group, Marlow Collective, who asked to remain anonymous. But when we went to non-tipping, we pretty much lost our entire staff that had been there for ten years. He wanted to make it work, but it just became really difficult. > > Tip-free dining was supposed to be the future of dining in New York and beyond. Instead, many owners are now scrambling to revert to the old way of doing things. There are holdouts especially in the upper echelons of the fine-dining world but it has become clear in just over three years that, for the time being, they will remain the overwhelming exceptions, not the rule. Heres why. > > > Staff turnover becomes too difficult to manage. > > Theres not a more important stakeholder to get right than our staff, Meyer told Eater in 2015. His tip-free model, called Hospitality Included, he said is absolutely going to be a win for cooks. Its going to be a win for entry-level managers. By eliminating tips, Meyer suggested he would be able to free front-of-house staff from kowtowing to the whims of finicky customers, better protect them from racism and sexual harassment among diners, and give them a sense of financial stability, since theyd get paid regardless of how busy the restaurant was. > > Meanwhile, by raising menu prices and thus revenues, the extra money would go toward higher wages for kitchen staff, who could start making $12 to $15 an hour at a time when the state minimum wage was $8.75. > > But, it turned out, many front-of-house staffers were more concerned with making money than with maintaining the moral high ground. This February, Meyer admitted that he had lost 30 to 40 percent of his legacy staffers since 2015. (One Meyer employee told Grub last year that her wages dropped from $60,000 per year to $50,000 under the new policy.) While he insisted that the employees that replaced them understand "Hospitality Included and are thrilled about it, added employee attrition in an industry where turnover is already 1.5 times that of the private sector average has to hurt. > > You just get a better, well-adjusted employee with tipping, said the anonymous Marlow Collective employee. Theyre more focused and they get that instant gratification. Before we even announced anything, there was buzzing about a return to tips. People were like, "Is it true, is it true? And, yes, people were very happy. > > Without widespread buy-in from other restaurants, its just too easy for front-of-house workers to leave to make more money elsewhere. About 40 percent of our servers were like, "Hey, this is awesome, but Im going to go to State Bird Provisions, where I can make 10 percent more, Vogler says. And who doesnt want to make 10 percent more? Theyre not freedom fighters. > > > Without tips, prices look higher, and customers balk. > > When restaurants adopt tip-included pricing, they necessarily have to raise menu prices, often by 20 percent. Customers, in turn, struggle to adjust to the new gratuity-included prices. > > Even though the cost of the dinner is going to be the same at the end, or pretty close to it, that initial reaction makes it look like its going to be more expensive, says Amanda Cohen of Dirt Candy, the Lower East Side restaurant that remains tip-free. Ive found myself standing outside the restaurant when someone is looking at the menu and going, "Dont worry, tips included. But you cant explain it to everybody. > > In a 2018 study published in The Journal of Hospitality Management, Michael Lynn, a professor of food and beverage management at Cornell, noted that tipping is a form of price-partitioning that reduces perceptions of expensiveness even when it does not affect the actual total costs of eating out, so replacing tipping with service inclusive pricing may decrease consumers perceptions of value. In other words: the food just feels more expensive. > > Cohen also believes this perception feeds into a bigger misconception among diners and restaurateurs about the real cost of running a restaurant, which is more expensive than ever before. Sticking with no tips is her way of planning for an inevitable future in which front-of-house staffers will legally have to be paid at least $15 an hour instead of the measly $10 to $11 an hour currently required by New York State law. (Federally, the tipped minimum wage is $2.13/hour.) > > The tipped minimum wage isnt going to stay where it is forever, she says. It was so crappy and thats how we were able to make these bigger profit margins and now were seeing it rise and our profit margins are getting smaller and smaller. We allowed that to happen because it was good for business and now all the big restaurant groups are like, "The minimum wage thing is really hurting us. Well, of course, it is. > > > For better or worse, tips make customers feel empowered. > > Generally speaking, Americans hated the practice of tipping when it was first introduced in the late 19th century, perceiving it as a form of bribery for service workers who should simply do their jobs. But as weve adjusted to it, tipping has become undeniably intertwined with a sense of power. > > Short of walking into the kitchen and telling off the chef, tipping is the easiest way to express satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a dining experience. Without it, diners will look for another way to voice their opinions. Lynn published a study this year in which he analyzed restaurant reviews for 18 Joes Crab Shack locations that went tip-free in 2015. His finding: Shacks with a no-tipping policy received ratings on Google Reviews and Yelp that were 0.24 to 0.45 points lower than locations with tipping in place. > > Online consumer reviewers were happier with restaurant experiences when the restaurant had a tipping system than when it had a no-tipping, service-inclusive pricing system, Lynn wrote. Without the obligation to tip, a minor annoyance, like a partially-forgotten order or a drink thats slow to arrive, can feel like a wrong that cant be righted. Others still may view tips as the most direct form of showering praise, and restaurant operators who have eliminated tips tell Grub Street that diners will nevertheless try to leave tips on a regular basis. > > The habit of tipping in this country among customers is incredibly ingrained, says New York restaurant critic Adam Platt. People dont even trust places where they cant tip. And its a habit that for restaurant owners, too, is extremely hard to kick. > > > Will there ever be a way to make no-tipping policies work? > > By and large, hospitality industry workers agree that the practice of tipping allows racism, sexism, and classism to flourish in restaurants, and there will always be operators who are willing to fight back. This is one of the hardest things Ive ever done in a restaurant, but Im sticking to it, Cohen says. I do not judge anybody for giving up on it and wanting to be more profitable or not close. We knew it was always going to be hard, but morally, for me, it was the right thing to do. > > But industry observers like Saru Jayaraman, the co-founder and co-director of the Restaurant Opportunities Centers United and the director of the Food Labor Research Center at UC Berkeley, hope this conversation will become moot once we get rid of the tipped minimum wage altogether. > > Danny Meyer and Andrew Tarlow wanted to go one step beyond and eliminate tipping altogether, Jayaraman says. But its challenging to do that on your own without a policy change that requires everyone to be paid a full minimum wage. > > That policy change has never been closer to fruition than it is now. In March 2018, President Trump signed the Consolidated Appropriations Act into law. It includes a provision that allows restaurant owners that pay front- and back-of-house employees full minimum wage to pool tips and split them between all employees. (Previously, tips were the sole property of front-of-house employees.) > > Meanwhile, eight U.S. states (MI, NV, CA, AK, MT, MN, WA, and OR) are now so-called One Fair Wage states, where tipped minimum wages have been eliminated. Twelve more states, including New Jersey, have similar bills in the works, and in New York, the Department of Labor held public hearings on the issue from April to June and will soon submit its findings to Governor Andrew Cuomo for consideration. > > Until then, restaurant owners are trying to find creative solutions to problems that have festered for too long. After Vogler brought tipping back, for example, he continued to pay back-of-house workers their higher wage and pared down front-of-house labor accordingly (he has one less manager than before). It was liberating to kind of eat a plate of shit and say, "Well, okay, were going back, Vogler explains, of returning to tipping. A friend of mine in the industry says, "Were in this business to innovate on the level of food, drink, and service, not to reinvent compensation. > > </> Ideally, a tip should be seen as simply the cost of dining out. It makes some folks feel godlike and omnipotent to bestow an award to some deserving person or to withhold and punish people that have slighted them or have not lived up to their expectations. It taints the server/diner relationship and lowers it down to one of a slave/master. That's not a good thing in this day and age. It is unhealthy for the soul. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 10:10:45 -0800 (PST), dsi1 >
wrote: >On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 3:24:54 PM UTC-10, GM wrote: >> http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 >> >> >> Why Tips Won Theyre outdated. Theyre discriminatory. And they arent going anywhere. >> >> By Nikita Richardson >> >> "In early 2015, Thad Vogler became an unwitting pioneer of the movement to eliminate tipping at restaurants. Vogler, who owns Bar Agricole and Trou Normand in San Francisco, had worked and traveled throughout Europe and Asia, where he loved the convenience and lack of pretense that came from restaurant pricing in which service was already included. Less than a year into his experiment, he found himself struggling with the consequences of a tip-free dining room: His staff was in a constant state of flux, and he would routinely attack anyone who expressed even the slightest bit of doubt about his new policy. I started to feel like Stalin, Vogler says. I was being a total ideologue. After nine months of being tip-free, he knew something needed to be done. >> >> I said to my managers, If we could switch back tomorrow, would you want to do it? Vogler remembers. Literally, one of them started to cry, she was so relieved. >> >> When Danny Meyer announced in October 2015 that he would eliminate tipping at all of his restaurants, the idea was hailed as a move that would save the hospitality industry, and other big-name restaurateurs Tom Colicchio, David Chang adopted similar tip-free models at some of their own establishments. The moves made national headlines. There was this idea that it was inevitable, and a huge groundswell, Vogler says. But that was bullshit it wasnt catching on, and it was very difficult. As much as I agree and I believe in the principle, it was too hard. >> >> The no-tipping policy lasted just six months at Changs Momofuku Nishi. Claus Meyer, a Noma co-founder, announced in February that he was ending the no-tipping policy at his own New York restaurant, Agern, after two years, citing slow business as a result of the higher menu prices. Gabe Stulman reversed course at his restaurant, Fedora, after four months without tips, telling Eater that guests were ordering less food than they had before. And last week, Andrew Tarlow the owner of Brooklyn restaurants like Romans and Diner revealed to his staff in an email that the no-tipping policies at his businesses had created new challenges that we are unable to sustainably resolve. Ultimately, we ended up serving an ideal at the expense of taking care of you, our staff, which is a trade-off I didnt fully anticipate and am unwilling to continue to make. >> >> Andrew was very disappointed, says an employee of Tarlows restaurant group, Marlow Collective, who asked to remain anonymous. But when we went to non-tipping, we pretty much lost our entire staff that had been there for ten years. He wanted to make it work, but it just became really difficult. >> >> Tip-free dining was supposed to be the future of dining in New York and beyond. Instead, many owners are now scrambling to revert to the old way of doing things. There are holdouts especially in the upper echelons of the fine-dining world but it has become clear in just over three years that, for the time being, they will remain the overwhelming exceptions, not the rule. Heres why. >> >> >> Staff turnover becomes too difficult to manage. >> >> Theres not a more important stakeholder to get right than our staff, Meyer told Eater in 2015. His tip-free model, called Hospitality Included, he said is absolutely going to be a win for cooks. Its going to be a win for entry-level managers. By eliminating tips, Meyer suggested he would be able to free front-of-house staff from kowtowing to the whims of finicky customers, better protect them from racism and sexual harassment among diners, and give them a sense of financial stability, since theyd get paid regardless of how busy the restaurant was. >> >> Meanwhile, by raising menu prices and thus revenues, the extra money would go toward higher wages for kitchen staff, who could start making $12 to $15 an hour at a time when the state minimum wage was $8.75. >> >> But, it turned out, many front-of-house staffers were more concerned with making money than with maintaining the moral high ground. This February, Meyer admitted that he had lost 30 to 40 percent of his legacy staffers since 2015. (One Meyer employee told Grub last year that her wages dropped from $60,000 per year to $50,000 under the new policy.) While he insisted that the employees that replaced them understand Hospitality Included and are thrilled about it, added employee attrition in an industry where turnover is already 1.5 times that of the private sector average has to hurt. >> >> You just get a better, well-adjusted employee with tipping, said the anonymous Marlow Collective employee. Theyre more focused and they get that instant gratification. Before we even announced anything, there was buzzing about a return to tips. People were like, Is it true, is it true? And, yes, people were very happy. >> >> Without widespread buy-in from other restaurants, its just too easy for front-of-house workers to leave to make more money elsewhere. About 40 percent of our servers were like, Hey, this is awesome, but Im going to go to State Bird Provisions, where I can make 10 percent more, Vogler says. And who doesnt want to make 10 percent more? Theyre not freedom fighters. >> >> >> Without tips, prices look higher, and customers balk. >> >> When restaurants adopt tip-included pricing, they necessarily have to raise menu prices, often by 20 percent. Customers, in turn, struggle to adjust to the new gratuity-included prices. >> >> Even though the cost of the dinner is going to be the same at the end, or pretty close to it, that initial reaction makes it look like its going to be more expensive, says Amanda Cohen of Dirt Candy, the Lower East Side restaurant that remains tip-free. Ive found myself standing outside the restaurant when someone is looking at the menu and going, Dont worry, tips included. But you cant explain it to everybody. >> >> In a 2018 study published in The Journal of Hospitality Management, Michael Lynn, a professor of food and beverage management at Cornell, noted that tipping is a form of price-partitioning that reduces perceptions of expensiveness even when it does not affect the actual total costs of eating out, so replacing tipping with service inclusive pricing may decrease consumers perceptions of value. In other words: the food just feels more expensive. >> >> Cohen also believes this perception feeds into a bigger misconception among diners and restaurateurs about the real cost of running a restaurant, which is more expensive than ever before. Sticking with no tips is her way of planning for an inevitable future in which front-of-house staffers will legally have to be paid at least $15 an hour instead of the measly $10 to $11 an hour currently required by New York State law. (Federally, the tipped minimum wage is $2.13/hour.) >> >> The tipped minimum wage isnt going to stay where it is forever, she says. It was so crappy and thats how we were able to make these bigger profit margins and now were seeing it rise and our profit margins are getting smaller and smaller. We allowed that to happen because it was good for business and now all the big restaurant groups are like, The minimum wage thing is really hurting us. Well, of course, it is. >> >> >> For better or worse, tips make customers feel empowered. >> >> Generally speaking, Americans hated the practice of tipping when it was first introduced in the late 19th century, perceiving it as a form of bribery for service workers who should simply do their jobs. But as weve adjusted to it, tipping has become undeniably intertwined with a sense of power. >> >> Short of walking into the kitchen and telling off the chef, tipping is the easiest way to express satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a dining experience. Without it, diners will look for another way to voice their opinions. Lynn published a study this year in which he analyzed restaurant reviews for 18 Joes Crab Shack locations that went tip-free in 2015. His finding: Shacks with a no-tipping policy received ratings on Google Reviews and Yelp that were 0.24 to 0.45 points lower than locations with tipping in place. >> >> Online consumer reviewers were happier with restaurant experiences when the restaurant had a tipping system than when it had a no-tipping, service-inclusive pricing system, Lynn wrote. Without the obligation to tip, a minor annoyance, like a partially-forgotten order or a drink thats slow to arrive, can feel like a wrong that cant be righted. Others still may view tips as the most direct form of showering praise, and restaurant operators who have eliminated tips tell Grub Street that diners will nevertheless try to leave tips on a regular basis. >> >> The habit of tipping in this country among customers is incredibly ingrained, says New York restaurant critic Adam Platt. People dont even trust places where they cant tip. And its a habit that for restaurant owners, too, is extremely hard to kick. >> >> >> Will there ever be a way to make no-tipping policies work? >> >> By and large, hospitality industry workers agree that the practice of tipping allows racism, sexism, and classism to flourish in restaurants, and there will always be operators who are willing to fight back. This is one of the hardest things Ive ever done in a restaurant, but Im sticking to it, Cohen says. I do not judge anybody for giving up on it and wanting to be more profitable or not close. We knew it was always going to be hard, but morally, for me, it was the right thing to do. >> >> But industry observers like Saru Jayaraman, the co-founder and co-director of the Restaurant Opportunities Centers United and the director of the Food Labor Research Center at UC Berkeley, hope this conversation will become moot once we get rid of the tipped minimum wage altogether. >> >> Danny Meyer and Andrew Tarlow wanted to go one step beyond and eliminate tipping altogether, Jayaraman says. But its challenging to do that on your own without a policy change that requires everyone to be paid a full minimum wage. >> >> That policy change has never been closer to fruition than it is now. In March 2018, President Trump signed the Consolidated Appropriations Act into law. It includes a provision that allows restaurant owners that pay front- and back-of-house employees full minimum wage to pool tips and split them between all employees. (Previously, tips were the sole property of front-of-house employees.) >> >> Meanwhile, eight U.S. states (MI, NV, CA, AK, MT, MN, WA, and OR) are now so-called One Fair Wage states, where tipped minimum wages have been eliminated. Twelve more states, including New Jersey, have similar bills in the works, and in New York, the Department of Labor held public hearings on the issue from April to June and will soon submit its findings to Governor Andrew Cuomo for consideration. >> >> Until then, restaurant owners are trying to find creative solutions to problems that have festered for too long. After Vogler brought tipping back, for example, he continued to pay back-of-house workers their higher wage and pared down front-of-house labor accordingly (he has one less manager than before). It was liberating to kind of eat a plate of shit and say, Well, okay, were going back, Vogler explains, of returning to tipping. A friend of mine in the industry says, Were in this business to innovate on the level of food, drink, and service, not to reinvent compensation. >> >> </> > >Ideally, a tip should be seen as simply the cost of dining out. It makes some folks feel godlike and omnipotent to bestow an award to some deserving person or to withhold and punish people that have slighted them or have not lived up to their expectations. It taints the server/diner relationship and lowers it down to one of a slave/master. That's not a good thing in this day and age. It is unhealthy for the soul. Do I understand correctly that, for a Google Grouper, it's not as clear that there's a huge wall of text above this post? |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:22:01 GMT, Pamela >
wrote: >On 18:08 7 Dec 2018, Bruce > wrote in : > >> On Sat, 08 Dec 2018 05:06:59 +1100, Bruce > >> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:04:07 GMT, Pamela > >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On 17:46 7 Dec 2018, Bruce > wrote in m: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 17:14:47 GMT, Pamela > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Many years ago I was eating at Blooms Restaurant in London and >>>>>>after we had eaten and left payment for the bill, one of the >>>>>>waiters came up to the table and said to me my husband "It's >>>>>>customary for diners to tip the waiting staff here, sir". >>>>> >>>>> "me my husband"? Are you starting to confuse yourself? >>>> >>>>It should read "my husband". Thanks. Although that isn't the point >>>>of my post. >>> >>>I thought you were a guy. I still do, actually. >> >> Oh, wait. Guys can have husbands too these days. Sorry > >In contrast to Blooms, I was at a Japanese restaurant in central London >which had a sign on the entrance door that said: > > "Our staff do not expect tips. If they smile it is because they are > pleased to serve you." > >How different! I understand you find it a difficult subject. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sat, 08 Dec 2018 05:37:27 +1100, Bruce >
wrote: >On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:22:01 GMT, Pamela > >wrote: > >>On 18:08 7 Dec 2018, Bruce > wrote in m: >> >>> On Sat, 08 Dec 2018 05:06:59 +1100, Bruce > >>> wrote: >>> >>>>On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:04:07 GMT, Pamela > >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>On 17:46 7 Dec 2018, Bruce > wrote in om: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 17:14:47 GMT, Pamela > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Many years ago I was eating at Blooms Restaurant in London and >>>>>>>after we had eaten and left payment for the bill, one of the >>>>>>>waiters came up to the table and said to me my husband "It's >>>>>>>customary for diners to tip the waiting staff here, sir". >>>>>> >>>>>> "me my husband"? Are you starting to confuse yourself? >>>>> >>>>>It should read "my husband". Thanks. Although that isn't the point >>>>>of my post. >>>> >>>>I thought you were a guy. I still do, actually. >>> >>> Oh, wait. Guys can have husbands too these days. Sorry >> >>In contrast to Blooms, I was at a Japanese restaurant in central London >>which had a sign on the entrance door that said: >> >> "Our staff do not expect tips. If they smile it is because they are >> pleased to serve you." Nonsense... Oriental waitstaff exhibit a perpetual grin regardless how they feel.... even when you speak to them they grin, of course they don't comprehend English, they simply grin. They are neither pleased nor unpleased... they perpetualy (grin) like robotic idiots... we have one of those (grinning) ninnies here... reminds me of George C. Tilyou... note the iconic grin: https://www.pinterest.com/heavypoopo...plechase-park/ >>How different! > >I understand you find it a difficult subject. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 12/7/2018 12:14 PM, Pamela wrote:
> On 14:43 7 Dec 2018, Nancy Young > wrote in > : >> We've eaten at restaurants a lot over the years. The vast majority of >> the time, the service is just fine to really excellent. The worst >> examples are along the line of lack of attention. No one's been >> surly. And no one's bowing and scraping. > Many years ago I was eating at Blooms Restaurant in London and after we > had eaten and left payment for the bill, one of the waiters came up to > the table and said to me my husband "It's customary for diners to tip the > waiting staff here, sir". > > Blimey! Such chutzpah, even for a Jewish resurant. > > I later learned the waiters at Blooms were known for their rudeness. It > was actually said in a sort of polite way, if rudeness can ever be > polite. Here are some newspaper comments about the waiters. > > -------- > > "the sadly defunct Bloom's of Whitechapel, a restaurant of > spectacularly rude waiters " > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodandd...r-cuisine.html > > -------- > > "You didn't go to Bloom's for the food..... You went for the > pantomime rudeness of the staff." > > "Of course, the staff were terribly rude but that was the point. It > was a completely un-English experience."" > > https://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/feat...e-past-1.16195 There are restaurants in the US that do the same schtick, people get a kick out of it for whatever reason. The food would have to be Really Good for me to bother with that particular form of dinner theater. nancy |
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To Tip - Or Not?
"Bruce" wrote in message ... On Sat, 08 Dec 2018 05:06:59 +1100, Bruce > wrote: >On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 18:04:07 GMT, Pamela > >wrote: > >>On 17:46 7 Dec 2018, Bruce > wrote in m: >> >>> On Fri, 07 Dec 2018 17:14:47 GMT, Pamela > >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Many years ago I was eating at Blooms Restaurant in London and after >>>>we had eaten and left payment for the bill, one of the waiters came up >>>>to the table and said to me my husband "It's customary for diners to >>>>tip the waiting staff here, sir". >>> >>> "me my husband"? Are you starting to confuse yourself? >> >>It should read "my husband". Thanks. Although that isn't the point of >>my post. > >I thought you were a guy. I still do, actually. Oh, wait. Guys can have husbands too these days. Sorry == lol |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 14:34:06 -0500, Nancy Young >
wrote: >On 12/7/2018 12:14 PM, Pamela wrote: >> On 14:43 7 Dec 2018, Nancy Young > wrote in >> : > >>> We've eaten at restaurants a lot over the years. The vast majority of >>> the time, the service is just fine to really excellent. The worst >>> examples are along the line of lack of attention. No one's been >>> surly. And no one's bowing and scraping. > >> Many years ago I was eating at Blooms Restaurant in London and after we >> had eaten and left payment for the bill, one of the waiters came up to >> the table and said to me my husband "It's customary for diners to tip the >> waiting staff here, sir". >> >> Blimey! Such chutzpah, even for a Jewish resurant. >> >> I later learned the waiters at Blooms were known for their rudeness. It >> was actually said in a sort of polite way, if rudeness can ever be >> polite. Here are some newspaper comments about the waiters. >> >> -------- >> >> "the sadly defunct Bloom's of Whitechapel, a restaurant of >> spectacularly rude waiters " >> >> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodandd...r-cuisine.html >> >> -------- >> >> "You didn't go to Bloom's for the food..... You went for the >> pantomime rudeness of the staff." >> >> "Of course, the staff were terribly rude but that was the point. It >> was a completely un-English experience."" >> >> https://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/feat...e-past-1.16195 > >There are restaurants in the US that do the same schtick, people get >a kick out of it for whatever reason. The food would have to be >Really Good for me to bother with that particular form of dinner >theater. > >nancy And of course there is no such thing as a Jewish restaurant. It would be properly refered to as "kosher" or "kosher style". Anyone who refers to a Jewish restaurant is an anti semite. I wonder how they'd refer to a Cathelic restaurant. There's not one Jewish restaurant in all of Israel, nor is there one Cathelic restaurant in all of Italy. The rudest servers I've encountered were in Naples and in Paris. The most sincere servers/people were in Jamaica.... I loved visiting Jamaica. |
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To Tip - Or Not? PING BRUCE
On 2018-12-07 11:01 AM, graham wrote:
> On 2018-12-06 6:24 p.m., GM wrote: >> http://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/re...051.1526831322 >> >> > > > Is there still a non-tipping culture in Australia? Could that be rephrased to ask if Australian restaurants pay their employees enough that the customers won't be obligated to supplement their pay? |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 2018-12-07 11:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/7/2018 5:18 AM, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes wrote: >> I do realise that many restaurant customers can be nothing but a pain and >> make unreasonable demands on the staff. Some appear to be complaining >> on a >> regular basis merely in order to try and get free meals; but we are >> not all >> like that. >> >> > In the US, may places pay a meager wage and tipping is minimal.* I'm > talking about a coffee shop type place where you go to a counter for > service.* It is OK not to tip there but many will leave the change. I have to wonder about tipping for counter service. It is not at all like table service. They aren't coming to take your order and delivering your food and beverages. When they put a tip jar out people feel that they should be tipping, but they would not expect to have to tip at a convenience store, the dry cleaners, the self service gas stations...... > Sit down restaurants are all sub minimum wage for servers and tipping is > expected.* A tip of 15% to 20% is normal and expected for decent > service.* Staff can make a good living in the right places.* To not tip > at least a minimal amount for acceptable service would be ignorant.* You > should not go to a restaurant knowing a tip is part of the server's wage. Where did this 20% thing happen? It used to be 15% for good service, and that does not include the tax. You are already paying a percentage with the tax and should not have to pay a tip on the tax as well. I have heard waiters suggest that 20% is more appropriate because prices have gone up. If prices are higher that same 15% translates to a bigger tip. FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for those serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 2018-12-07 1:14 PM, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes wrote:
> That doesnt seem simple, just cowardly. > > If I purchase items from a store and they end up being substandard I take > them back for a refund, > > Why must that not apply to catering outlets? You can't take back food that you have eaten. It could not be too bad if you ate it. Restaurants do sometimes bend over backwards to placate idiot customers. My nephew is a chef and when he was at one of the local winery restaurants one person sent back pate foie gras because she thought it was too fatty. Another sent back sweetbreads because she was a vegetarian and didn't know it was meat. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 2018-12-07 2:46 PM, Pamela wrote:
> On 02:21 7 Dec 2018, Ed Pawlowski > wrote in ing to pay that as a wage. >> >> I image there are exceptions that go the opposite way. > > My friend's daughter works as a waitress in country club near Dallas, TX > and her tips for a busy shift are often greater than you mention. > > She probably won't earn that much in a full time job once she > graduates. > I have a nephew who worked as a waiter to pay his way through university where he was studying hotel management. As it turned out, he could make a hell of a lot more as a waiter than he could in hotel management. He is now in his mid 40s and still waiting on tables.... and making good money. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 2018-12-07 4:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/7/2018 1:14 PM, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes wrote: >> If I purchase items from a store and they end up being substandard I take >> them back for a refund, >> >> Why must that not apply to catering outlets? >> >> > It can apply, but complain to the manager or cook.* Don't blame the > server for an over cooked steak.* He just carried it from the kitchen. To be fair.... if the steak was perfectly cooked it would be the waiter getting the tip that reflects the customer's enjoyment. > If I don't like the food I will send it back or just not return, but I > don't stiff the waiter, though it may be not as generous. It's a tough call. The tipping culture leads to a lot of corruption in the kitchen. Wait staff can be expected to pay off the kitchen staff to expedite orders. Kitchen staff can really screw servers. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 12:24:17 PM UTC-10, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2018-12-07 2:46 PM, Pamela wrote: > > On 02:21 7 Dec 2018, Ed Pawlowski > wrote in > ing to pay that as a wage. > >> > >> I image there are exceptions that go the opposite way. > > > > My friend's daughter works as a waitress in country club near Dallas, TX > > and her tips for a busy shift are often greater than you mention. > > > > She probably won't earn that much in a full time job once she > > graduates. > > > > I have a nephew who worked as a waiter to pay his way through university > where he was studying hotel management. As it turned out, he could make > a hell of a lot more as a waiter than he could in hotel management. He > is now in his mid 40s and still waiting on tables.... and making good > money. My daughter's ex-boyfriend was a chef but most of those guys would rather be getting a the money the wait staff was getting. It's a classy joint in a rainforest type setting and my guess is that the tabs are high and so is the tips. In this joint tips are serious business. Here's a shot off of the lanai dining room. https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...f23XUsXVDd6oWk |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 2018-12-07 5:49 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 12:24:17 PM UTC-10, Dave Smith wrote: >> I have a nephew who worked as a waiter to pay his way through >> university where he was studying hotel management. As it turned >> out, he could make a hell of a lot more as a waiter than he could >> in hotel management. He is now in his mid 40s and still waiting on >> tables.... and making good money. > > My daughter's ex-boyfriend was a chef but most of those guys would > rather be getting a the money the wait staff was getting. It's a > classy joint in a rainforest type setting and my guess is that the > tabs are high and so is the tips. In this joint tips are serious > business. Here's a shot off of the lanai dining room. Yep. Here we are worrying about the poor waiters and waitresses and feeling that we have to give them huge tips, and they are often making more money than the people who are managing them and who are preparing the food that we are enjoying. I have none a couple of waitresses who got promoted to head waitress and ended up with a lower income. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 1:18:18 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
> Do I understand correctly that, for a Google Grouper, it's not as > clear that there's a huge wall of text above this post? Maybe. I can see it and readily delete it on my desktop browser. If dsi1 is using a mobile device, perhaps not. Although I think someone else here uses google groups on a mobile device occasionally, and that interface doesn't automatically quote at all, leaving us to wonder what the heck the context was. Cindy Hamilton |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 5:04:47 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2018-12-07 11:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote: > > On 12/7/2018 5:18 AM, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes wrote: > > >> I do realise that many restaurant customers can be nothing but a pain and > >> make unreasonable demands on the staff. Some appear to be complaining > >> on a > >> regular basis merely in order to try and get free meals; but we are > >> not all > >> like that. > >> > >> > > In the US, may places pay a meager wage and tipping is minimal.* I'm > > talking about a coffee shop type place where you go to a counter for > > service.* It is OK not to tip there but many will leave the change.. > > I have to wonder about tipping for counter service. It is not at all > like table service. They aren't coming to take your order and delivering > your food and beverages. When they put a tip jar out people feel that > they should be tipping, but they would not expect to have to tip at a > convenience store, the dry cleaners, the self service gas stations...... > > > > > Sit down restaurants are all sub minimum wage for servers and tipping is > > expected.* A tip of 15% to 20% is normal and expected for decent > > service.* Staff can make a good living in the right places.* To not tip > > at least a minimal amount for acceptable service would be ignorant.* You > > should not go to a restaurant knowing a tip is part of the server's wage. > > > Where did this 20% thing happen? It used to be 15% for good service, and > that does not include the tax. You are already paying a percentage with > the tax and should not have to pay a tip on the tax as well. I have > heard waiters suggest that 20% is more appropriate because prices have > gone up. If prices are higher that same 15% translates to a bigger tip. > > FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for those > serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here. I lunch weekly at a restaurant. I tip 30-40%. The tab is so small it scarcely is more than 15-20%. I get treated like royalty when I go there. Cindy Hamilton |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 1:28:28 PM UTC-6, Sheldon wrote:
.... > > Nonsense... Oriental waitstaff exhibit a perpetual grin regardless how > they feel.... even when you speak to them they grin, of course they > don't comprehend English, they simply grin. They are neither pleased > nor unpleased... they perpetualy (grin) like robotic idiots... we have > one of those (grinning) ninnies here... reminds me of George C. > Tilyou... note the iconic grin: > https://www.pinterest.com/heavypoopo...plechase-park/ .... Ok Sailor Boy! How many ASIANS (not "orientals") have you LIVED WITH? IOW do you KNOW? Me: several in the past 30 years! You respond to STEREOTYPES!! False perverted STEREOTYPES like cinema imagery of the 19th and 20th Century!! Yesteryears! Are you even Aware that Bollywood exists? https://www.bollywood.com/ There is a LOT more to OUR WORLD than your little sequestered New England White Supremacist TERRORIST Colonial Remnant! John Kuthe, KutheChocolates.com... |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-6, Sheldon wrote:
.... > > The rudest servers I've encountered were in Naples and in Paris. > The most sincere servers/people were in Jamaica.... I loved visiting > Jamaica. Do you have ANY IDEA of the political history of Jamaica? U.S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica Typical EUROPEAN CONQUERING WHITE SUPREMACIST COLONIAL TRADE TERRORISTS!! Typical a White Supremacist ******* ASSHOLE like YOU would like getting their ass kissed! :-( John Kuthe... |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 03:31:30 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote: >On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 5:04:47 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote: >> On 2018-12-07 11:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote: >> > On 12/7/2018 5:18 AM, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes wrote: >> >> >> I do realise that many restaurant customers can be nothing but a pain and >> >> make unreasonable demands on the staff. Some appear to be complaining >> >> on a >> >> regular basis merely in order to try and get free meals; but we are >> >> not all >> >> like that. >> >> >> >> >> > In the US, may places pay a meager wage and tipping is minimal.* I'm >> > talking about a coffee shop type place where you go to a counter for >> > service.* It is OK not to tip there but many will leave the change. >> >> I have to wonder about tipping for counter service. It is not at all >> like table service. They aren't coming to take your order and delivering >> your food and beverages. When they put a tip jar out people feel that >> they should be tipping, but they would not expect to have to tip at a >> convenience store, the dry cleaners, the self service gas stations...... >> >> >> >> > Sit down restaurants are all sub minimum wage for servers and tipping is >> > expected.* A tip of 15% to 20% is normal and expected for decent >> > service.* Staff can make a good living in the right places.* To not tip >> > at least a minimal amount for acceptable service would be ignorant.* You >> > should not go to a restaurant knowing a tip is part of the server's wage. >> >> >> Where did this 20% thing happen? It used to be 15% for good service, and >> that does not include the tax. You are already paying a percentage with >> the tax and should not have to pay a tip on the tax as well. I have >> heard waiters suggest that 20% is more appropriate because prices have >> gone up. If prices are higher that same 15% translates to a bigger tip. >> >> FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for those >> serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here. > >I lunch weekly at a restaurant. I tip 30-40%. The tab is so small it >scarcely is more than 15-20%. I don't get this. I'm assuming tab is American for bill. The bill is so small that a 30-40% tip is only 15-20%? |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 06:36:32 -0800 (PST), John Kuthe
> wrote: >On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-6, Sheldon wrote: >... >> >> The rudest servers I've encountered were in Naples and in Paris. >> The most sincere servers/people were in Jamaica.... I loved visiting >> Jamaica. > >Do you have ANY IDEA of the political history of Jamaica? U.S. > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica > >Typical EUROPEAN CONQUERING WHITE SUPREMACIST COLONIAL TRADE TERRORISTS!! > >Typical a White Supremacist ******* ASSHOLE like YOU would like getting their ass kissed! :-( If it wasn't for white takeover, they'd all be starving in front of a hut made of cow shit. Who said that again? |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 03:26:27 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote: >On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 1:18:18 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > >> Do I understand correctly that, for a Google Grouper, it's not as >> clear that there's a huge wall of text above this post? > >Maybe. I can see it and readily delete it on my desktop browser. If >dsi1 is using a mobile device, perhaps not. Although I think someone >else here uses google groups on a mobile device occasionally, and that >interface doesn't automatically quote at all, leaving us to wonder what >the heck the context was. On the one hand, GG seems to be made for the clueless user. But if you want to use it well, you actually have to think a bit more than with a normal news reader. See for instance the diarrhea posts of dsi1 and Greg Someting (GM). |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sun, 09 Dec 2018 04:37:57 +1100, Bruce >
wrote: >On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 06:36:32 -0800 (PST), John Kuthe > wrote: > >>On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-6, Sheldon wrote: >>... >>> >>> The rudest servers I've encountered were in Naples and in Paris. >>> The most sincere servers/people were in Jamaica.... I loved visiting >>> Jamaica. >> >>Do you have ANY IDEA of the political history of Jamaica? U.S. >> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica >> >>Typical EUROPEAN CONQUERING WHITE SUPREMACIST COLONIAL TRADE TERRORISTS!! >> >>Typical a White Supremacist ******* ASSHOLE like YOU would like getting their ass kissed! :-( > >If it wasn't for white takeover, they'd all be starving in front of a >hut made of cow shit. > >Who said that again? If it hadn't been for white people interfering, their lives would have been far better. Those natives who killed the missionary recently have really shown great intelligence |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sat, 08 Dec 2018 13:51:39 -0400, wrote:
>On Sun, 09 Dec 2018 04:37:57 +1100, Bruce > >wrote: > >>On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 06:36:32 -0800 (PST), John Kuthe > wrote: >> >>>On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-6, Sheldon wrote: >>>... >>>> >>>> The rudest servers I've encountered were in Naples and in Paris. >>>> The most sincere servers/people were in Jamaica.... I loved visiting >>>> Jamaica. >>> >>>Do you have ANY IDEA of the political history of Jamaica? U.S. >>> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica >>> >>>Typical EUROPEAN CONQUERING WHITE SUPREMACIST COLONIAL TRADE TERRORISTS!! >>> >>>Typical a White Supremacist ******* ASSHOLE like YOU would like getting their ass kissed! :-( >> >>If it wasn't for white takeover, they'd all be starving in front of a >>hut made of cow shit. >> >>Who said that again? > >If it hadn't been for white people interfering, their lives would have >been far better. Those natives who killed the missionary recently >have really shown great intelligence I think it depends where. Famine stricken Africa could do with some western interference. Black Americans would have to go their entire lives without rap music. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sat, 08 Dec 2018 13:51:39 -0400, wrote:
>On Sun, 09 Dec 2018 04:37:57 +1100, Bruce > >wrote: > >>On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 06:36:32 -0800 (PST), John Kuthe > wrote: >> >>>On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-6, Sheldon wrote: >>>... >>>> >>>> The rudest servers I've encountered were in Naples and in Paris. >>>> The most sincere servers/people were in Jamaica.... I loved visiting >>>> Jamaica. >>> >>>Do you have ANY IDEA of the political history of Jamaica? U.S. >>> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica >>> >>>Typical EUROPEAN CONQUERING WHITE SUPREMACIST COLONIAL TRADE TERRORISTS!! >>> >>>Typical a White Supremacist ******* ASSHOLE like YOU would like getting their ass kissed! :-( >> >>If it wasn't for white takeover, they'd all be starving in front of a >>hut made of cow shit. >> >>Who said that again? > >If it hadn't been for white people interfering, their lives would have >been far better. Those natives who killed the missionary recently >have really shown great intelligence By the way, I think it's admirable that a barbaric country like India has decided to keep their hands off that island. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 12:36:46 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 03:31:30 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton > > wrote: > > >On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 5:04:47 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote: > >> On 2018-12-07 11:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote: > >> > On 12/7/2018 5:18 AM, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes wrote: > >> > >> >> I do realise that many restaurant customers can be nothing but a pain and > >> >> make unreasonable demands on the staff. Some appear to be complaining > >> >> on a > >> >> regular basis merely in order to try and get free meals; but we are > >> >> not all > >> >> like that. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In the US, may places pay a meager wage and tipping is minimal.* I'm > >> > talking about a coffee shop type place where you go to a counter for > >> > service.* It is OK not to tip there but many will leave the change. > >> > >> I have to wonder about tipping for counter service. It is not at all > >> like table service. They aren't coming to take your order and delivering > >> your food and beverages. When they put a tip jar out people feel that > >> they should be tipping, but they would not expect to have to tip at a > >> convenience store, the dry cleaners, the self service gas stations....... > >> > >> > >> > >> > Sit down restaurants are all sub minimum wage for servers and tipping is > >> > expected.* A tip of 15% to 20% is normal and expected for decent > >> > service.* Staff can make a good living in the right places.* To not tip > >> > at least a minimal amount for acceptable service would be ignorant.* You > >> > should not go to a restaurant knowing a tip is part of the server's wage. > >> > >> > >> Where did this 20% thing happen? It used to be 15% for good service, and > >> that does not include the tax. You are already paying a percentage with > >> the tax and should not have to pay a tip on the tax as well. I have > >> heard waiters suggest that 20% is more appropriate because prices have > >> gone up. If prices are higher that same 15% translates to a bigger tip. > >> > >> FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for those > >> serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here. > > > >I lunch weekly at a restaurant. I tip 30-40%. The tab is so small it > >scarcely is more than 15-20%. > > I don't get this. I'm assuming tab is American for bill. The bill is > so small that a 30-40% tip is only 15-20%? A 15-20% tip would be $1.50 to $2.00. A 30-40% tip would be $3-$4. The difference is not worth worrying about in the grand scheme of things. I leave $3 or $4 for the tip, depending on how many $1 bills I have in my wallet. Cindy Hamilton |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 12:12:00 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote: >On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 12:36:46 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: >> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 03:31:30 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton >> > wrote: >> >> >On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 5:04:47 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote: >> >> On 2018-12-07 11:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote: >> >> > On 12/7/2018 5:18 AM, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes wrote: >> >> >> >> >> I do realise that many restaurant customers can be nothing but a pain and >> >> >> make unreasonable demands on the staff. Some appear to be complaining >> >> >> on a >> >> >> regular basis merely in order to try and get free meals; but we are >> >> >> not all >> >> >> like that. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > In the US, may places pay a meager wage and tipping is minimal.* I'm >> >> > talking about a coffee shop type place where you go to a counter for >> >> > service.* It is OK not to tip there but many will leave the change. >> >> >> >> I have to wonder about tipping for counter service. It is not at all >> >> like table service. They aren't coming to take your order and delivering >> >> your food and beverages. When they put a tip jar out people feel that >> >> they should be tipping, but they would not expect to have to tip at a >> >> convenience store, the dry cleaners, the self service gas stations...... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Sit down restaurants are all sub minimum wage for servers and tipping is >> >> > expected.* A tip of 15% to 20% is normal and expected for decent >> >> > service.* Staff can make a good living in the right places.* To not tip >> >> > at least a minimal amount for acceptable service would be ignorant.* You >> >> > should not go to a restaurant knowing a tip is part of the server's wage. >> >> >> >> >> >> Where did this 20% thing happen? It used to be 15% for good service, and >> >> that does not include the tax. You are already paying a percentage with >> >> the tax and should not have to pay a tip on the tax as well. I have >> >> heard waiters suggest that 20% is more appropriate because prices have >> >> gone up. If prices are higher that same 15% translates to a bigger tip. >> >> >> >> FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for those >> >> serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here. >> > >> >I lunch weekly at a restaurant. I tip 30-40%. The tab is so small it >> >scarcely is more than 15-20%. >> >> I don't get this. I'm assuming tab is American for bill. The bill is >> so small that a 30-40% tip is only 15-20%? > >A 15-20% tip would be $1.50 to $2.00. A 30-40% tip would be $3-$4. The >difference is not worth worrying about in the grand scheme of things. >I leave $3 or $4 for the tip, depending on how many $1 bills I have >in my wallet. Ah, yes, I get it now. |
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To Tip - Or Not?
On 12/8/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Dec 2018 04:37:57 +1100, Bruce > > wrote: > >> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 06:36:32 -0800 (PST), John Kuthe >> > wrote: >> >>> On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-6, Sheldon wrote: >>> ... >>>> >>>> The rudest servers I've encountered were in Naples and in Paris. >>>> The most sincere servers/people were in Jamaica.... I loved visiting >>>> Jamaica. >>> >>> Do you have ANY IDEA of the political history of Jamaica? U.S. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica >>> >>> Typical EUROPEAN CONQUERING WHITE SUPREMACIST COLONIAL TRADE TERRORISTS!! >>> >>> Typical a White Supremacist ******* ASSHOLE like YOU would like getting their ass kissed! :-( >> >> If it wasn't for white takeover, they'd all be starving in front of a >> hut made of cow shit. >> >> Who said that again? > > If it hadn't been for white people interfering, their lives would have > been far better. Those natives who killed the missionary recently > have really shown great intelligence > Just because they were happy for the past 2000 years, just think how much happier they would be having a white man tell them about Jesus. I hope the government just leaves his body there and does not mess up any more than what that idiot did. Tough on the parents they raised a fool. |
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