When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.

The good news is that he is going to be working in a shop with some of
his friends and they will put me on their list for special orders.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:31:35 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
>had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
>do that.


Yes, modern logic is a wonderful thing <sarcasm>.
In many ways, the 'smarter' we get, the dumber we get as a society.

Taking personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions is
positively medieval (apparently) and must be placed in the hands of
faceless drones who know what's best for us.

On 2015-03-21 5:39 PM, wrote:

>
> Yes, modern logic is a wonderful thing <sarcasm>.
> In many ways, the 'smarter' we get, the dumber we get as a society.
>
> Taking personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions is
> positively medieval (apparently) and must be placed in the hands of
> faceless drones who know what's best for us.
>
>


The guy sells mostly pork and specializes in sausages and smoking. Who
in their right mind does not know that smoked pork products are high in
salt and fat? If they are too stupid to realize that they probably
aren't reading the nutritional information anyway.

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 2:31:38 PM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
> had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
> do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
> products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.

What if he made a brochure with all his products' nutritional information,
and put a stack at the checkout? He could probably even get people to
get the nutritional information just by analyzing the recipes (so much
fat, so much sugar, so much sodium, etc.)

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 15:06:31 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 2:31:38 PM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
>> had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
>> do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
>> products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.
>
>What if he made a brochure with all his products' nutritional information,
>and put a stack at the checkout?

Because that wouldn't satisfy Govco's requirements.
It would be a waste of his time and money.

>He could probably even get people to
>get the nutritional information just by analyzing the recipes (so much
>fat, so much sugar, so much sodium, etc.)

What 'people' could he get to do this that would satisfying Govco's
criteria - without spending a great deal of money?

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:46:58 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2015-03-21 5:39 PM, wrote:
>
>> Yes, modern logic is a wonderful thing <sarcasm>.
>> In many ways, the 'smarter' we get, the dumber we get as a society.
>>
>> Taking personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions is
>> positively medieval (apparently) and must be placed in the hands of
>> faceless drones who know what's best for us.
>>
>
>The guy sells mostly pork and specializes in sausages and smoking. Who
>in their right mind does not know that smoked pork products are high in
>salt and fat? If they are too stupid to realize that they probably
>aren't reading the nutritional information anyway.

Yes, a pointless amount of energy and money that achieves absolutely
nothing. But that is all the rage these days in westernised countries
everywhere.

On 3/21/2015 5:31 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
> had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
> do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
> products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.
>
> The good news is that he is going to be working in a shop with some of
> his friends and they will put me on their list for special orders.
>

It is important to know that bacon has sodium and fat. Without that
nutrition label we would not know that and could not decide if we should
eat it.

You'd think there would be some sort of exemption for small producers,
but the government knows what is best for us.

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 2:31:38 PM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
> had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
> do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
> products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.
>
> The good news is that he is going to be working in a shop with some of
> his friends and they will put me on their list for special orders.

Nutrition labels for meats are pretty standard.
I dont see how buying a bunch of printed stickers would put him out of business.

He could probably comply with the law by putting up posters with the nutrition information on them.

He needs to investigate further and not just give up.

Would you and his other customers be willing to pay a nickle more to pay for the labels??

That's about what they would cost.

On 2015-03-21 19:57, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/21/2015 5:31 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
>> had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
>> do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
>> products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.
>>
>> The good news is that he is going to be working in a shop with some of
>> his friends and they will put me on their list for special orders.
>>
>
> It is important to know that bacon has sodium and fat. Without that
> nutrition label we would not know that and could not decide if we should
> eat it.
>
> You'd think there would be some sort of exemption for small producers,
> but the government knows what is best for us.

There should be an exception for foods for people who who should know
better but don't care. There have been issues with some of the fast food
places. You would be hard pressed to convince me that the people who eat
McDonalds and similar crap don't know that it is no a healthy diet, or
that they would do anything useful with the information.

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 3:31:38 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
> had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
> do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
> products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.

And no doubt have to be printed in both English and French thus increasing
the cost as well. Damned idiots.
>
> The good news is that he is going to be working in a shop with some of
> his friends and they will put me on their list for special orders.
===

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:11:34 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 2:31:38 PM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
>> had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
>> do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
>> products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.
>>
>> The good news is that he is going to be working in a shop with some of
>> his friends and they will put me on their list for special orders.
>
>Nutrition labels for meats are pretty standard.
>I dont see how buying a bunch of printed stickers would put him out of business.
>
>He could probably comply with the law by putting up posters with the nutrition information on them.

Fresh meats don't have nutrition labels, no need, there's nothing
added... it's only processed/cured meats that have nutrition labels.

On 3/21/2015 8:11 PM, ImStillMags wrote:

> He needs to investigate further and not just give up.
>
> Would you and his other customers be willing to pay a nickle more to pay for the labels??
>
> That's about what they would cost.
>


It is not just the cost of the label, it is getting whatever analysis
you need to certify the content.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:11:34 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 2:31:38 PM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him he
>> had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot afford to
>> do that. Dang. There is no one around who sells bacon and other pork
>> products as good and as cheaply as his stuff.
>>
>> The good news is that he is going to be working in a shop with some of
>> his friends and they will put me on their list for special orders.
>
>Nutrition labels for meats are pretty standard.

I don't think ordinary meat requires it?

>I dont see how buying a bunch of printed stickers would put him out of business.
>
>He could probably comply with the law by putting up posters with the nutrition information on them.
>
>He needs to investigate further and not just give up.

I would surely think somebody doesnt simply give up on their business
and career without a decent amount of investigation...

>Would you and his other customers be willing to pay a nickle more to pay for the labels??
>
>That's about what they would cost.

The lables themselves are the least of the problem - it's getting to
the point where you can put the lables on that's the problem.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 20:20:27 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> You would be hard pressed to convince me that the people who eat
> McDonalds and similar crap don't know that it is no a healthy diet, or
> that they would do anything useful with the information.

Agree! I'm interested by the information and often shocked, but never
surprised.

--
A kitchen without a cook is just a room

On 3/22/2015 1:54 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 20:20:27 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> You would be hard pressed to convince me that the people who eat
>> McDonalds and similar crap don't know that it is no a healthy diet, or
>> that they would do anything useful with the information.
>
> Agree! I'm interested by the information and often shocked, but never
> surprised.
>

I do look at that stuff at times, but it rarely changes my decision. If
I cannot decide between the Greasy Burger and the Sloppy Burger, a big
difference in content may way me, but if I really want that Greasy
Burger, I'm getting it.

On 3/21/2015 4:31 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him
> he had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot
> afford to do that.

I call bullshit on his claim. The government grants a small business
exemption for ground meat products:

"to qualify for the small business exemption for ground or chopped
products, a retail store must either be a single retail store or a
multi-retail
store operation that employs 500 or fewer people and produces no more
than 100,000 pounds of each ground product per year".

And as for intact meat cuts, the business has the option of putting a
label on the package *or* displaying a poster with the nutrition
information *or* providing pamphlets with that information.

So all this dude had to do was go to the gov's website where the
nutritional information posters are formatted, hit print, laminate it,
and hang it up.

If there's one thing I've learned in my life, it's that when people
have a problem that they brought on themselves, they blame somebody
else. The tale of woe is never "I screwed up". It's nearly always
"it's all the fault of <fill in the blank>".

On 2015-03-23 7:47 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

> I call bullshit on his claim. The government grants a small business
> exemption for ground meat products:
>
> "to qualify for the small business exemption for ground or chopped
> products, a retail store must either be a single retail store or a
> multi-retail
> store operation that employs 500 or fewer people and produces no more
> than 100,000 pounds of each ground product per year".
>
> And as for intact meat cuts, the business has the option of putting a
> label on the package *or* displaying a poster with the nutrition
> information *or* providing pamphlets with that information.
>
> So all this dude had to do was go to the gov's website where the
> nutritional information posters are formatted, hit print, laminate it,
> and hang it up.
>
> If there's one thing I've learned in my life, it's that when people have
> a problem that they brought on themselves, they blame somebody else. The
> tale of woe is never "I screwed up". It's nearly always "it's all the
> fault of <fill in the blank>".
>


I don't know how different the laws are in the US. I am going by what he
told me. I don't think he was making a pile of money with that
business. It was just him and his father helping out part time. He had
an offer to come and work with some friends.

On 3/23/2015 7:47 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
> On 3/21/2015 4:31 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him
>> he had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot
>> afford to do that.
>
> I call bullshit on his claim. The government grants a small business
> exemption for ground meat products:
>
> "to qualify for the small business exemption for ground or chopped
> products, a retail store must either be a single retail store or a
> multi-retail
> store operation that employs 500 or fewer people and produces no more
> than 100,000 pounds of each ground product per year".
>
> And as for intact meat cuts, the business has the option of putting a
> label on the package *or* displaying a poster with the nutrition
> information *or* providing pamphlets with that information.

I wonder if he sells other than meats. My butcher makes all
kinds of prepared dinners and sides, besides meat and their
sausages. I think it must be a big part of their business as
it takes up half the counter space in the store. It can't be
easy to provide nutritional info for that stuff, never mind that
it's probably a rotating selection.

Just a thought.

nancy

On 2015-03-23 9:56 AM, Nancy Young wrote:

> I wonder if he sells other than meats. My butcher makes all
> kinds of prepared dinners and sides, besides meat and their
> sausages. I think it must be a big part of their business as
> it takes up half the counter space in the store. It can't be
> easy to provide nutritional info for that stuff, never mind that
> it's probably a rotating selection.
>
> Just a thought.


He specialized in pork products but had some beef and occasionally some
chicken. His main business was sausages, ham and bacon, and most of it
was wholesale. A few times when I was there I would run into one of the
other local butchers picking up their orders.

On 3/23/2015 8:56 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 3/23/2015 7:47 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
>> On 3/21/2015 4:31 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him
>>> he had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot
>>> afford to do that.
>>
>> I call bullshit on his claim. The government grants a small business
>> exemption for ground meat products:
>>
>> "to qualify for the small business exemption for ground or chopped
>> products, a retail store must either be a single retail store or a
>> multi-retail
>> store operation that employs 500 or fewer people and produces no more
>> than 100,000 pounds of each ground product per year".
>>
>> And as for intact meat cuts, the business has the option of putting a
>> label on the package *or* displaying a poster with the nutrition
>> information *or* providing pamphlets with that information.
>
> I wonder if he sells other than meats. My butcher makes all
> kinds of prepared dinners and sides, besides meat and their
> sausages. I think it must be a big part of their business as
> it takes up half the counter space in the store. It can't be
> easy to provide nutritional info for that stuff, never mind that
> it's probably a rotating selection.
>
> Just a thought.

The small business exemption covers that, too:

Small Business Nutrition Labeling Exemption

....One exemption, for low-volume products, applies if the person
claiming the exemption employs fewer than an average of 100 full-time
equivalent employees and fewer than 100,000 units of that product are
sold in the United States in a 12-month period. To qualify for this
exemption the person must file a notice annually with FDA.

Another type of exemption applies to retailers with annual gross sales
of not more than $500,000, or with annual gross sales of foods or
dietary supplements to consumers of not more than $50,000. For these
exemptions, a notice does not need to be filed with the Food and Drug
Administration (FDA).

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegu...elingNutrition
/ucm2006867.htm

If it is truly a small business (and 'small' is defined very
generously here), it is exempt from the nutrition labeling
requirements for its products.

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:58 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:

>On 3/23/2015 7:47 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
>> On 3/21/2015 4:31 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him
>>> he had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot
>>> afford to do that.
>>
>> I call bullshit on his claim. The government grants a small business
>> exemption for ground meat products:
>>
>> "to qualify for the small business exemption for ground or chopped
>> products, a retail store must either be a single retail store or a
>> multi-retail
>> store operation that employs 500 or fewer people and produces no more
>> than 100,000 pounds of each ground product per year".
>>
>> And as for intact meat cuts, the business has the option of putting a
>> label on the package *or* displaying a poster with the nutrition
>> information *or* providing pamphlets with that information.
>
>I wonder if he sells other than meats. My butcher makes all
>kinds of prepared dinners and sides, besides meat and their
>sausages. I think it must be a big part of their business as
>it takes up half the counter space in the store. It can't be
>easy to provide nutritional info for that stuff, never mind that
>it's probably a rotating selection.
>
>Just a thought.
>
>nancy

In the US plain fresh meat needs no nutrition label, none
whatsoever... stupidmarket packaged fresh meat labels will indicate
the cut, the price, the weight and that it's USDA inspected, that's
it[period] If USDA Graded it will indicate such but grading is
voluntary. However butcher shops that sell meat to order, wrapped in
plain butcher paper and a paper bag require NO labeling, none
whatsoever. Only factory sealed processed/cured meats require
nutritive labeling, and typically very vague; like water added, saline
solution added, etc. Buy sliced to order bologna from the deli and
the only information on the label will be name of product, weight,
price, and date[period] Most stand alone delis use no labels
whatsoever, they tell you the price and hand you your change (if any)
is all... buy a ham n' cheese on rye at a deli and there will be NO
label, none required. That's in the US, I don't know the vaguaries of
the Canucks.

On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 11:31:56 AM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

> The small business exemption covers that, too:

Dave Smith and his butcher are in Canada. Are you quoting
Canadian regs?

Cindy Hamilton

On 3/23/2015 11:31 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
> On 3/23/2015 8:56 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>> On 3/23/2015 7:47 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
>>> On 3/21/2015 4:31 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>>>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>>>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him
>>>> he had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot
>>>> afford to do that.
>>>
>>> I call bullshit on his claim. The government grants a small business
>>> exemption for ground meat products:
>>>
>>> "to qualify for the small business exemption for ground or chopped
>>> products, a retail store must either be a single retail store or a
>>> multi-retail
>>> store operation that employs 500 or fewer people and produces no more
>>> than 100,000 pounds of each ground product per year".
>>>
>>> And as for intact meat cuts, the business has the option of putting a
>>> label on the package *or* displaying a poster with the nutrition
>>> information *or* providing pamphlets with that information.
>>
>> I wonder if he sells other than meats. My butcher makes all
>> kinds of prepared dinners and sides, besides meat and their
>> sausages. I think it must be a big part of their business as
>> it takes up half the counter space in the store. It can't be
>> easy to provide nutritional info for that stuff, never mind that
>> it's probably a rotating selection.
>>
>> Just a thought.
>
> The small business exemption covers that, too:
>
> Small Business Nutrition Labeling Exemption
>
> ...One exemption, for low-volume products, applies if the person
> claiming the exemption employs fewer than an average of 100 full-time
> equivalent employees and fewer than 100,000 units of that product are
> sold in the United States in a 12-month period. To qualify for this
> exemption the person must file a notice annually with FDA.
>
> Another type of exemption applies to retailers with annual gross sales
> of not more than $500,000, or with annual gross sales of foods or
> dietary supplements to consumers of not more than $50,000. For these
> exemptions, a notice does not need to be filed with the Food and Drug
> Administration (FDA).

The thing is, Dave's Canadian. Don't know what their 'FDA' is called
but I'm sure their rules are different.

nancy

On 3/23/2015 11:31 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

> The small business exemption covers that, too:
>
> Small Business Nutrition Labeling Exemption
>
> ...One exemption, for low-volume products, applies if the person
> claiming the exemption employs fewer than an average of 100 full-time
> equivalent employees and fewer than 100,000 units of that product are
> sold in the United States in a 12-month period. To qualify for this
> exemption the person must file a notice annually with FDA.

Please explain how a Canadian business can be exempt using US laws.

On 2015-03-23 1:00 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 11:31:56 AM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
>
>> The small business exemption covers that, too:
>
> Dave Smith and his butcher are in Canada. Are you quoting
> Canadian regs?
>
I checked the site with the federal regulations about nutition
information labels. There are some exemptions, but there is nothing
about one based on the size of the operation. There is an exemption for
very small operation, like those sold at places like road side stands,
craft shows, farmers markets that are sold by the people who made them.

On 3/23/2015 12:00 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 11:31:56 AM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
>
>> The small business exemption covers that, too:
>
> Dave Smith and his butcher are in Canada. Are you quoting
> Canadian regs?
>

Whoops, you got me there. I made the USA-centric assumption that he
was in the US. I have no idea what Canada requires of its food
industries. Lessee what Google says:

5.3 Exemptions [B.01.401(2)]
The following products are exempt from displaying a Nutrition Facts table:

....raw, single ingredient meat, meat by-product, poultry meat, and
poultry meat by-product;

NOTE: prepackaged ground meat, ground meat by-product, ground poultry meat
and ground poultry meat by-product must always carry a Nutrition Facts
table
[B.01.401(3)(d)].

....foods sold only in the retail establishment where the product is
prepared and
processed, including products made from a pre-mix when an ingredient
other than water is added to the pre-mix;


So Dave's butcher was correct - in Canada, he has to provide nutrition
labeling for his ground meat products. Also, according this guide to
US vs Canadian Labeling Regulations, "In Canada, there are no
exemptions for small businesses."
http://www.aamp.com/documents/Sillik...egulations.pdf

My apologies to Dave and his butcher.

On 3/23/2015 9:56 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 3/23/2015 7:47 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
>> On 3/21/2015 4:31 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> When I went in to my local Dutch butcher this morning to pick up my
>>> weekly order I was told that bad news that they are closing down. They
>>> are victims of bureaucracy. He told me that the government told him
>>> he had to put nutrition labels on all his products, and he cannot
>>> afford to do that.
>>
>> I call bullshit on his claim. The government grants a small business
>> exemption for ground meat products:
>>
>> "to qualify for the small business exemption for ground or chopped
>> products, a retail store must either be a single retail store or a
>> multi-retail
>> store operation that employs 500 or fewer people and produces no more
>> than 100,000 pounds of each ground product per year".
>>
>> And as for intact meat cuts, the business has the option of putting a
>> label on the package *or* displaying a poster with the nutrition
>> information *or* providing pamphlets with that information.
>
> I wonder if he sells other than meats. My butcher makes all
> kinds of prepared dinners and sides, besides meat and their
> sausages. I think it must be a big part of their business as
> it takes up half the counter space in the store. It can't be
> easy to provide nutritional info for that stuff, never mind that
> it's probably a rotating selection.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> nancy
>
It's a good thought, too. There's a meat market in town. Nice
selection. But for some reason the owner's wife thinks she's a great
cook so they also sell things she's made. Like cottage pie and lasagna.
She packages it herself. There's no telling what the heck is in it.
We bought some once after some urging when we were paying for steaks.
Perhaps if they'd been forced to have labels they would have read, "Some
nasty food my wife made."

Jill

Moe DeLoughan > wrote:
>
>
> The small business exemption covers that, too:
> [...]

Perhaps I missed it someplace, but WHERE is the butcher from the
OP located? I get indications it isn't in the United States.

Mike Beede

On 3/27/2015 8:04 PM, Mike Beede wrote:
> Moe DeLoughan > wrote:
>>
>>
>> The small business exemption covers that, too:
>> [...]
>
> Perhaps I missed it someplace, but WHERE is the butcher from the
> OP located? I get indications it isn't in the United States.
>
> Mike Beede
>
Dave lives in Canada.

Jill