On 2012-09-11 17:25:03 +0000, Sqwertz said:

> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:00:02 -0700, gtr wrote:
>
>> TJ's products are made by TJ, or regional products that are re-labeled
>> or imported by TJ and various other approaches.
>
> As far as I know, TJ's - like most grocery stores - do not make any of
> their store-branded products.

I've read some things about their product labs, how they change this
flavor, add that spice and so forth until they had it the way they
wanted it. I can't say that a TJ factory produces and manufactures the
final product.

> They are all manufactured by other producers and co-branded with one of
> the TJ's brand names.

I think that would qualify as both potentially "re-labeled" and "other
approaches".

>> But for the most part they don't have products by Del Monte, General
>> Foods and Kraft. Their buyers and product-labs do their own thing
>> rather than sitting in an
>> office waiting to be contacted by major distributors. For this reason
>> most, though not all, of their products can't be found in national
>> chains supermarkets.
>
> Where do you get impression?

Because so many of their products say TJ's on the label I would assume
that the distributors that work with Safeway, Albertson's, Ralph's and
the rest aren't marketing or shipping the products to TJ's. Correct me
if you have information in this regard.

Certainly I'd assume that TJ's buys from some of the same producers of
"tomato sauce" and puts their own labels on it. I have my doubts that
these products are, for example, Del Monte, General Foods and Kraft,
with special labels from TJ's. Please correct me if you have specific
information to the contrary.

> No, you won't any Trader Joe's brands in any other supermarkets. Just
> like when you go to Korger you won't find Walmart Great Branded
> products. But there are identical products in the supermarkets.

I was referring to distribution, and continue to assume that TJ's is
doing their own distribution to their own stores. I figure that's part
of what makes some of their less expensive products less expensive.

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:08:19 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:

> On 9/11/2012 1:58 PM, sf wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:28:02 -0800, Mark Thorson >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> sf wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It sounded to me like he was stirring the pot, but NYC is well known
> >>> for wearing (or beating) people down. Those who can't adapt don't
> >>> make it. My SIL has lived in mid-town Manhattan (Greenwich Village
> >>> and Gramercy Park) for over 25 years. I think the reason she has
> >>> lasted so long is because she was born and raised in a big city on the
> >>> west coast and understands what big city living is all about; but
> >>> there were times when I thought she was going to throw in the towel
> >>> and leave.
> >>
> >> And move to Jersey. Yes, exactly.
> >
> > No. Any true New Yorker looks down their nose at the Bridge and
> > Tunnel crowd. She moved to Astoria for a couple of years.
>
> Also part of the bridge and tunnel set.
>

Yeah, but not as low on the totem pole as NJ, CT and Long Island.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 9/11/2012 2:44 PM, sf wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:08:19 -0400, Nancy Young
> > wrote:
>
>> On 9/11/2012 1:58 PM, sf wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:28:02 -0800, Mark Thorson >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> sf wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounded to me like he was stirring the pot, but NYC is well known
>>>>> for wearing (or beating) people down. Those who can't adapt don't
>>>>> make it. My SIL has lived in mid-town Manhattan (Greenwich Village
>>>>> and Gramercy Park) for over 25 years. I think the reason she has
>>>>> lasted so long is because she was born and raised in a big city on the
>>>>> west coast and understands what big city living is all about; but
>>>>> there were times when I thought she was going to throw in the towel
>>>>> and leave.
>>>>
>>>> And move to Jersey. Yes, exactly.
>>>
>>> No. Any true New Yorker looks down their nose at the Bridge and
>>> Tunnel crowd. She moved to Astoria for a couple of years.
>>
>> Also part of the bridge and tunnel set.
>>
>
> Yeah, but not as low on the totem pole as NJ, CT and Long Island.

Anyone who doesn't live on the island of Manhattan is subject to
disdain. Just driving over to Brooklyn is a bleak prospect.

nancy

On 9/11/2012 2:30 AM, George wrote:
> On 9/10/2012 11:49 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On 9/10/2012 5:03 PM, sf wrote:
>>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:31:40 -1000, dsi1
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'd rather not
>>>> have to stop at a gas station at all. Getting an electric car would
>>>> be a
>>>> big relief too.
>>>
>>> I think hybrid electric cars are perfect for island living!
>>>
>>
>> You're right. I don't really need a hybrid, a fully electric car would
>> suit my needs. I drive a mile and a half a day to work. My wife is even
>> closer. A long trip for me is to Honolulu, over the mountain. A round
>> trip would be less than 30 miles. It's gonna be great not having to go
>> get gas.
>
> A friend lives outside Philly. His wife has a 10 mile drive to her job
> and she has a Nissan Leaf and loves the car.
>
> http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index

When we can figure out how to increase the energy density of batteries
and how the heck we can support the electricity generation/distribution
needed to support a nation of electric cars, it's gonna be a no-brainer
- we'll all be driving electrics.

I've been working on cars for 40 years and the idea of not having to
deal with a cooling system, lubrication system, transmissions, clutches,
fuel systems, exhaust systems, timing belts, water pumps, valves, head
gaskets, and any number of things that's not included in the electric
car is tantalizing. It means that a home mechanic should be able to do
most repairs themselves including changing out the motors and
electric/electronic control systems. We will think that this era of
piston engines as akin to the steam era.

On 9/11/2012 5:04 AM, sf wrote:
>
> Are they gentrifying the neighborhoods? I'm wondering how much pigeon
> is spoken these days. Back when my kids were young, one of my friends
> (the mother of a family with children) moved to Hawaii and they sent
> their kids went to public school. I lost track of her after a couple
> of years (way before email for ordinary people) - but before that
> happened, I know her kids were speaking pigeon with their friends and
> they were living the laid back life style of the islands.
>

I suspect that pidgin these days is mostly shaped by TV and hip-hop
culture so it's pretty diluted from it's Hawaiian-Chinese and whatevas
origins. The kids these days are more exposed to the outside world.
Back in my father's day, pidgin was the way most people talked. My
mother, however, didn't like me speaking pidgin at home so I never did
although I could if I needed to. I was pidgin bi-lingual as was most of
my friends. Our pidgin was colored by surf lingo and hippie-speak. It's
different from my father's pidgin. OTOH, I deal with old folks every
day. I use my father's pidgin when I talk to them.

On Monday, September 10, 2012 9:58:28 PM UTC-5, Cheri wrote:
> "Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> Oh, and your low IQ remark? **** you and the horse you rode in on,
>
> >> asshole.
>
> >
>
> > NJ is where the losers go that can't make it in NY.
>
> > Oregon serves the same function for California.
>

>
> BS
>
Really. Oregon is a lovely place. I can't think of one negative thing about that state. Mark obviously is blowing out his ass. He knows very little about Oregon. I wonder if he thinks that British Columbia is full of folks who couldn't "make it in" Washington?

There are a lot of states that I disparage, and for what I feel are good reasons, but Oregon?
>
> Cheri

--Bryan

On 11 Sep 2012 16:36:38 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2012-09-11, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>
>> That's kind of pricey for what is effectively a golf cart. The
>> typical golf cart costs like $3K and has a range of about 50 miles.
>
>Yep. Problem with golf carts is they got no heat! We gots lots
>golfcarts here in our lil' park, but they all go into hibernation when
>the snows fall. We gotta few motor golfcarts, but I don't think they
>have heaters, too. A few ATVs 2-strs /w motors. Some have heaters,
>but I hate them damn things. For some bizarre reason mfgr's like
>Can-Am, Kawy, etc, figured they'd skimp on mufflers and the damn
>things sound like undersized johhny-poppers. Make a horrible racket
>for their size.

It was supposed to be for relatively short trips, I'm sure folks can
dress appropriately for say thirty minutes, even an hour... folks are
out in fridgid temperatures all day and no wind protection, think
skiers. I rode a motorcycle in NY winters, with proper clothing I
didn't feel cold.

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:21:15 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:

> On 9/11/2012 2:44 PM, sf wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:08:19 -0400, Nancy Young
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> On 9/11/2012 1:58 PM, sf wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:28:02 -0800, Mark Thorson >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> sf wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It sounded to me like he was stirring the pot, but NYC is well known
> >>>>> for wearing (or beating) people down. Those who can't adapt don't
> >>>>> make it. My SIL has lived in mid-town Manhattan (Greenwich Village
> >>>>> and Gramercy Park) for over 25 years. I think the reason she has
> >>>>> lasted so long is because she was born and raised in a big city on the
> >>>>> west coast and understands what big city living is all about; but
> >>>>> there were times when I thought she was going to throw in the towel
> >>>>> and leave.
> >>>>
> >>>> And move to Jersey. Yes, exactly.
> >>>
> >>> No. Any true New Yorker looks down their nose at the Bridge and
> >>> Tunnel crowd. She moved to Astoria for a couple of years.
> >>
> >> Also part of the bridge and tunnel set.
> >>
> >
> > Yeah, but not as low on the totem pole as NJ, CT and Long Island.
>
> Anyone who doesn't live on the island of Manhattan is subject to
> disdain. Just driving over to Brooklyn is a bleak prospect.
>

Brooklyn has a whole 'nother reputation these days, but it's
interesting how NYers discriminate - even against each other. My SIL
said she once heard a 20-something YO say she wouldn't date anyone who
lived above 23rd or some number like that.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 9/11/2012 6:07 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> You talk big but nothing has been stopping you for many years, buy a
> golf cart.
>

Your naivete is simply adorable! My computer has an 80GB hard drive and
1GB of RAM and a broadband connection! Yoose probably think that's
"talking big." What can I say? I got it all. I don't have an electric
car - yet. They're way too expensive and the infrastructure to support
it is not yet developed. My bold prediction is that we'll all be driving
one in ten years. Yoose don't like it? Tough beans!

But come on, fess up. You're just jealous because I have my very own
water cooler! I can have hot or chilled water anytime I want and you
can't so pfffft!

No doubt a golf cart would be perfectly suited for a nasty old perv and
his cats but it don't make sense for a man and his wife and kids and
their boyfriends and girlfriends and a multitude of in-laws and by
golly, even a dog sometimes!

"Bryan" > wrote in message
...

Really. Oregon is a lovely place. I can't think of one negative thing
about that state. Mark obviously is blowing out his ass. He knows very
little about Oregon. I wonder if he thinks that British Columbia is full of
folks who couldn't "make it in" Washington?

There are a lot of states that I disparage, and for what I feel are good
reasons, but Oregon?

--Bryan



I love Oregon, and still hope to make it back. Spent a lot of my childhood
in the Roseburg/Sutherlin area.

Cheri

On 2012-09-12, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
> It was supposed to be for relatively short trips, I'm sure folks can
> dress appropriately for say thirty minutes, even an hour...

But, they don't want to. All old retired geezers, here. At 64, I'm
the young kid on the block. We lose at least 4-5 per yr.

nb

--
Definition of objectivism:
"Eff you! I got mine."
http://www.nongmoproject.org/

In article >, lid
says...
>
> On 9/11/2012 2:30 AM, George wrote:
> > On 9/10/2012 11:49 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> >> On 9/10/2012 5:03 PM, sf wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:31:40 -1000, dsi1
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'd rather not
> >>>> have to stop at a gas station at all. Getting an electric car would
> >>>> be a
> >>>> big relief too.
> >>>
> >>> I think hybrid electric cars are perfect for island living!
> >>>
> >>
> >> You're right. I don't really need a hybrid, a fully electric car would
> >> suit my needs. I drive a mile and a half a day to work. My wife is even
> >> closer. A long trip for me is to Honolulu, over the mountain. A round
> >> trip would be less than 30 miles. It's gonna be great not having to go
> >> get gas.
> >
> > A friend lives outside Philly. His wife has a 10 mile drive to her job
> > and she has a Nissan Leaf and loves the car.
> >
> > http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index
>
> When we can figure out how to increase the energy density of batteries
> and how the heck we can support the electricity generation/distribution
> needed to support a nation of electric cars, it's gonna be a no-brainer
> - we'll all be driving electrics.
>
> I've been working on cars for 40 years and the idea of not having to
> deal with a cooling system, lubrication system, transmissions, clutches,
> fuel systems, exhaust systems, timing belts, water pumps, valves, head
> gaskets, and any number of things that's not included in the electric
> car is tantalizing. It means that a home mechanic should be able to do
> most repairs themselves including changing out the motors and
> electric/electronic control systems. We will think that this era of
> piston engines as akin to the steam era.

It'll basically be changing out the battery pack that is the biggest
project for an electric vehicle.

But I too am awaiting the high density batteries to come.

On 2012-09-11 22:34:19 +0000, Sqwertz said:

> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:37:55 -0700, gtr wrote:
>
>> On 2012-09-11 17:25:03 +0000, Sqwertz said:
>>
>>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:00:02 -0700, gtr wrote:
>>>
>>>> TJ's products are made by TJ, or regional products that are re-labeled
>>>> or imported by TJ and various other approaches.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, TJ's - like most grocery stores - do not make any of
>>> their store-branded products.
>>
>> I've read some things about their product labs, how they change this
>> flavor, add that spice and so forth until they had it the way they
>> wanted it. I can't say that a TJ factory produces and manufactures the
>> final product.
>
> Andy tweaking of the ingredients would have happened at the
> manufacturers facility since TJ's does not have any facilities in
> which to manufacture the product to be tweaked.
>
> And that would still be back pedaling from you originally said.
>
>>> They are all manufactured by other producers and co-branded with one of
>>> the TJ's brand names.
>>
>> I think that would qualify as both potentially "re-labeled" and "other
>> approaches".
>
> Notice I said "all". That was cointradicting your first statement
> that, "TJ's products are made by TJ".
>
> If you did hard enough you may find one made by Aldi or one of their
> German companies, but that still wouldn't be Trader Joes.
>
>> Because so many of their products say TJ's on the label I would assume
>> that the distributors that work with Safeway, Albertson's, Ralph's and
>> the rest aren't marketing or shipping the products to TJ's. Correct me
>> if you have information in this regard.
>
> It's a well known fact and practice that all these store brands are
> really coming from other companies. That Safeway or Walmart brand of
> green beans or cookies is the exact same product they sell at Kroger
> and Giant Eagle. Sometimes they are manufactured/packaged by brand
> names you'd recognize, and sometimes they are processed by companies
> that have no label of their own and they exist solely to supply
> grocery store brand name labels.
>
> In TJ's case it sounds like most of their products come from mostly
> name brand manufacturers. And to confuse matters even more confusing,
> in a lot of cases even the name brand manufacturers don't even
> manufacture their own products.
>
>> Certainly I'd assume that TJ's buys from some of the same producers of
>> "tomato sauce" and puts their own labels on it. I have my doubts that
>> these products are, for example, Del Monte, General Foods and Kraft,
>> with special labels from TJ's. Please correct me if you have specific
>> information to the contrary.
>
> Apparently you didn't read the articles. Nobody has access to this
> information unless you work or worked there. And you could face civil
> charges if you disclose the fact that TJ's gets XYZ from PQD company.
> But I would not be surprised at all if some of their common cheese
> comes from Kraft or their packaged oats ultimately from General Mills
> or the people who supply General Mills.
>
>>> No, you won't any Trader Joe's brands in any other supermarkets. Just
>>> like when you go to Korger you won't find Walmart Great Branded
>>> products. But there are identical products in the supermarkets.
>>
>> I was referring to distribution, and continue to assume that TJ's is
>> doing their own distribution to their own stores. I figure that's part
>> of what makes some of their less expensive products less expensive.
>
> Huh? I don't know what you're trying to throw out now.
>
> But this stuff is all Retail 101. All back pedaling aside, my point
> was that TJ's does not make any of their own products, contrary to
> what you said. You even implied that TJ's makes their own "Trader
> Jose/Fred/Joe/Giovana" products, and that is certainly not true in the
> least.

Let me rephrase: Everything I said is wrong. I concede all points on
all topics intersecting TJ's.

On 9/11/2012 4:03 PM, T wrote:
> In article >, lid
> says...
>>
>> On 9/11/2012 2:30 AM, George wrote:
>>> On 9/10/2012 11:49 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2012 5:03 PM, sf wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:31:40 -1000, dsi1
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd rather not
>>>>>> have to stop at a gas station at all. Getting an electric car would
>>>>>> be a
>>>>>> big relief too.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think hybrid electric cars are perfect for island living!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're right. I don't really need a hybrid, a fully electric car would
>>>> suit my needs. I drive a mile and a half a day to work. My wife is even
>>>> closer. A long trip for me is to Honolulu, over the mountain. A round
>>>> trip would be less than 30 miles. It's gonna be great not having to go
>>>> get gas.
>>>
>>> A friend lives outside Philly. His wife has a 10 mile drive to her job
>>> and she has a Nissan Leaf and loves the car.
>>>
>>> http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index
>>
>> When we can figure out how to increase the energy density of batteries
>> and how the heck we can support the electricity generation/distribution
>> needed to support a nation of electric cars, it's gonna be a no-brainer
>> - we'll all be driving electrics.
>>
>> I've been working on cars for 40 years and the idea of not having to
>> deal with a cooling system, lubrication system, transmissions, clutches,
>> fuel systems, exhaust systems, timing belts, water pumps, valves, head
>> gaskets, and any number of things that's not included in the electric
>> car is tantalizing. It means that a home mechanic should be able to do
>> most repairs themselves including changing out the motors and
>> electric/electronic control systems. We will think that this era of
>> piston engines as akin to the steam era.
>
> It'll basically be changing out the battery pack that is the biggest
> project for an electric vehicle.
>
> But I too am awaiting the high density batteries to come.
>
>

I don't believe that we'll be changing out our own battery packs because
the disposal and recycling of these things is a big tricky job. What's
exciting is that getting high performance out of these motors is easy -
just add more batteries.

On 9/11/2012 10:02 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2012-09-12, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>
>> It was supposed to be for relatively short trips, I'm sure folks can
>> dress appropriately for say thirty minutes, even an hour...
>
> But, they don't want to. All old retired geezers, here. At 64, I'm
> the young kid on the block. We lose at least 4-5 per yr.
>
> nb
>
Why would any of that be necessary? It is a full featured car and looks
like and operates just like any other car including having heating and A/C.

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:30:56 -0400, George >
wrote:

> On 9/10/2012 11:49 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> > On 9/10/2012 5:03 PM, sf wrote:
> >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:31:40 -1000, dsi1
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'd rather not
> >>> have to stop at a gas station at all. Getting an electric car would be a
> >>> big relief too.
> >>
> >> I think hybrid electric cars are perfect for island living!
> >>
> >
> > You're right. I don't really need a hybrid, a fully electric car would
> > suit my needs. I drive a mile and a half a day to work. My wife is even
> > closer. A long trip for me is to Honolulu, over the mountain. A round
> > trip would be less than 30 miles. It's gonna be great not having to go
> > get gas.
>
> A friend lives outside Philly. His wife has a 10 mile drive to her job
> and she has a Nissan Leaf and loves the car.
>
> http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index

Just curious. With the cost of household electricity being so high...
how much does a full charge cost, how long does it last and how easy
is it to find a recharging station when they aren't at home?

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 12/09/2012 9:06 AM, sf wrote:

> Just curious. With the cost of household electricity being so high...
> how much does a full charge cost, how long does it last and how easy
> is it to find a recharging station when they aren't at home?
>

It is one thing to be re-charging from your home, but what about people
living in apartments and condos who are expecting their landlords or
fellow condo owners to pay for the power to run their electric vehicles.
Electric scooters are becoming more popular around here and I often
see them plugged in at various places. For instance, someone at the town
library rides to work on one and plus it in to charge all day. I don't
know how much it costs, but it isn't really fair. They don't get free
gasoline.

On 9/12/2012 9:19 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 12/09/2012 9:06 AM, sf wrote:
>
>> Just curious. With the cost of household electricity being so high...
>> how much does a full charge cost, how long does it last and how easy
>> is it to find a recharging station when they aren't at home?
>>
>
> It is one thing to be re-charging from your home, but what about people
> living in apartments and condos who are expecting their landlords or
> fellow condo owners to pay for the power to run their electric vehicles.
> Electric scooters are becoming more popular around here and I often
> see them plugged in at various places. For instance, someone at the town
> library rides to work on one and plus it in to charge all day. I don't
> know how much it costs, but it isn't really fair. They don't get free
> gasoline.

There are more implications than that. Most of the highway money comes
from road use tax applied on liquid fuels. So say you fill up your gas
tank and pay a bunch of taxes to maintain the roads and I plug my car in
and don't pay towards those same roads? And it even gets more bizarre
with the road use tax. In my state some of that money goes to subsidize
fares on SEPTA (Philly mass transit). I get that mass transit is a good
thing but why shouldn't its users pay the cost of a fare? Why should
someone who may never even go there pay for someone to use Philly mass
transit?

dsi1 wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> But I too am awaiting the high density batteries to come.

As the range on a single charge goes from 200 to 400 miles electric cars
go from not competing with gasoline power to direct competition. Below
the range of 200 miles per charge most car owners will only have one as
a second vehicle for a worker with a local commute. Above the range of
400 miles on a single charge the range advantage of gasoline gets very
low. When on long trips I'll drive 500 miles per day but I rarely do
trips that long as by that distance air travel starts to compete.

> I don't believe that we'll be changing out our own battery packs because
> the disposal and recycling of these things is a big tricky job.

When Volkswagon came out the idea was shops would stock engines. When
you took your car intot he shop they'd swap in one of the engines in
stock and then they'd be able to work on the engine after you left then
put it back into the cycle when their work was complete. Swapping out
engines did not work in the long run. I figure history will repeat on
this topic with batteries.

> What's
> exciting is that getting high performance out of these motors is easy -
> just add more batteries.

More batteries gets more range. It's only one part of performance.

Dave Smith wrote:

> It is one thing to be re-charging from your home, but what about people
> living in apartments and condos who are expecting their landlords or
> fellow condo owners to pay for the power to run their electric vehicles.

You must be talking about old-fashioned multiple dwelling bldgs. At
worst, an increase in electric vehicles will be an impetus to update
them to individual metering.

On 12/09/2012 9:47 AM, George wrote:


> There are more implications than that. Most of the highway money comes
> from road use tax applied on liquid fuels. So say you fill up your gas
> tank and pay a bunch of taxes to maintain the roads and I plug my car in
> and don't pay towards those same roads? And it even gets more bizarre
> with the road use tax.

This province has been known not to tax some alternative fuels as a way
of encouraging people to switch to more sustainable forms of transporttion.

Almost every major road reconstruction project around her lately has
seen bike lanes added to the roads. Bikes aren't paying anything for
road use, thought I imagine that most of the bike riders also own cars
and are already paying. Since the road taxes on fuel are based on the
use, those with fuel efficient cars are paying a lot less that those
with gas guzzlers.



> In my state some of that money goes to subsidize
> fares on SEPTA (Philly mass transit). I get that mass transit is a good
> thing but why shouldn't its users pay the cost of a fare? Why should
> someone who may never even go there pay for someone to use Philly mass
> transit?

Fares can put the transit authorities in a Catch 22 situation. In many
places the it would cost so much to run the transit system that fares
would be prohibitively high. Those that use public transit because they
cannot afford a car would not be able to afford the fares. Bear in mind
that most systems charge fares on the individuals and that can be a
consideration when travelling by transit. It costs the same to drive and
park a car with one person or with 6, but it costs 6 times as much for
that car load of people to go by transit.

One of the problems with car travel is gridlock. By taking a large
percentage of commuters out of cars and putting them in public transit,
there are a lot fewer cars on the road. That but carrying 40 passengers
could be doing the work of 40 cars, each of which would take up road
space and add to congestion. In theory, subsidizing the city transit
makes driving easier for the cars.

On 9/12/2012 4:30 AM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> dsi1 wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>
>>> But I too am awaiting the high density batteries to come.
>
> As the range on a single charge goes from 200 to 400 miles electric cars
> go from not competing with gasoline power to direct competition. Below
> the range of 200 miles per charge most car owners will only have one as
> a second vehicle for a worker with a local commute. Above the range of
> 400 miles on a single charge the range advantage of gasoline gets very
> low. When on long trips I'll drive 500 miles per day but I rarely do
> trips that long as by that distance air travel starts to compete.

Most electrics have not cracked the 200 miles per charge figure yet.
They might say it in their advertising but that's advertising. The best
you'll be able to get will be around 70 mile range on a charge.

>
>> I don't believe that we'll be changing out our own battery packs because
>> the disposal and recycling of these things is a big tricky job.
>
> When Volkswagon came out the idea was shops would stock engines. When
> you took your car intot he shop they'd swap in one of the engines in
> stock and then they'd be able to work on the engine after you left then
> put it back into the cycle when their work was complete. Swapping out
> engines did not work in the long run. I figure history will repeat on
> this topic with batteries.

There was at least one shop that swapped type 1 and type 2 engines
locally in the 80s. The procedure could be done in an hour if you knew
what you were doing - well, that's what I've heard, at least. The price
for a rebuilt swap was around $300. A great deal! Of course, most folks
were not driving air-cooled VWs back in the 80s.

>
>> What's
>> exciting is that getting high performance out of these motors is easy -
>> just add more batteries.
>
> More batteries gets more range. It's only one part of performance.

The truth is that more power can be achieved simply by increasing the
voltage - more batteries is the simplest way to do this. More batteries
can also be used for more range too. Large capacitors will also be used
like a turbo to boost power during acceleration. They'll also be used to
slow the car down during braking. It's all very exciting.

>

In article >, says...
>
> dsi1 wrote:
> > T wrote:
> >
> >> But I too am awaiting the high density batteries to come.
>
> As the range on a single charge goes from 200 to 400 miles electric cars
> go from not competing with gasoline power to direct competition. Below
> the range of 200 miles per charge most car owners will only have one as
> a second vehicle for a worker with a local commute. Above the range of
> 400 miles on a single charge the range advantage of gasoline gets very
> low. When on long trips I'll drive 500 miles per day but I rarely do
> trips that long as by that distance air travel starts to compete.
>
> > I don't believe that we'll be changing out our own battery packs because
> > the disposal and recycling of these things is a big tricky job.
>
> When Volkswagon came out the idea was shops would stock engines. When
> you took your car intot he shop they'd swap in one of the engines in
> stock and then they'd be able to work on the engine after you left then
> put it back into the cycle when their work was complete. Swapping out
> engines did not work in the long run. I figure history will repeat on
> this topic with batteries.

Interestingly the way modern cars are built you could do a powertrain
swap with relatively little effort. You do need a special lift but other
than that it's a few bolt and some connections to sever but drop out,
lift in.

> > What's
> > exciting is that getting high performance out of these motors is easy -
> > just add more batteries.
>
> More batteries gets more range. It's only one part of performance.

Yes indeed. The other thing about electric motors is that they are at
100% torque on power-up. Gasoline engines on the other hand has an
optimal power band where maximum torque is available.

In article >,
says...
>
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:30:56 -0400, George >
> wrote:
>
> > On 9/10/2012 11:49 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> > > On 9/10/2012 5:03 PM, sf wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:31:40 -1000, dsi1
> > >> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I'd rather not
> > >>> have to stop at a gas station at all. Getting an electric car would be a
> > >>> big relief too.
> > >>
> > >> I think hybrid electric cars are perfect for island living!
> > >>
> > >
> > > You're right. I don't really need a hybrid, a fully electric car would
> > > suit my needs. I drive a mile and a half a day to work. My wife is even
> > > closer. A long trip for me is to Honolulu, over the mountain. A round
> > > trip would be less than 30 miles. It's gonna be great not having to go
> > > get gas.
> >
> > A friend lives outside Philly. His wife has a 10 mile drive to her job
> > and she has a Nissan Leaf and loves the car.
> >
> > http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index
>
> Just curious. With the cost of household electricity being so high...
> how much does a full charge cost, how long does it last and how easy
> is it to find a recharging station when they aren't at home?

Define high. I pay a combined rate of 14 cents per kWh here which I
consider just slightly obscene.

In article >,
says...
>
> On 12/09/2012 9:06 AM, sf wrote:
>
> > Just curious. With the cost of household electricity being so high...
> > how much does a full charge cost, how long does it last and how easy
> > is it to find a recharging station when they aren't at home?
> >
>
> It is one thing to be re-charging from your home, but what about people
> living in apartments and condos who are expecting their landlords or
> fellow condo owners to pay for the power to run their electric vehicles.
> Electric scooters are becoming more popular around here and I often
> see them plugged in at various places. For instance, someone at the town
> library rides to work on one and plus it in to charge all day. I don't
> know how much it costs, but it isn't really fair. They don't get free
> gasoline.

Pretty simple matter to wire it up on a building circuit with access
cards and meters.

In article >, lid says...
>
> On 9/12/2012 9:19 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> > On 12/09/2012 9:06 AM, sf wrote:
> >
> >> Just curious. With the cost of household electricity being so high...
> >> how much does a full charge cost, how long does it last and how easy
> >> is it to find a recharging station when they aren't at home?
> >>
> >
> > It is one thing to be re-charging from your home, but what about people
> > living in apartments and condos who are expecting their landlords or
> > fellow condo owners to pay for the power to run their electric vehicles.
> > Electric scooters are becoming more popular around here and I often
> > see them plugged in at various places. For instance, someone at the town
> > library rides to work on one and plus it in to charge all day. I don't
> > know how much it costs, but it isn't really fair. They don't get free
> > gasoline.
>
> There are more implications than that. Most of the highway money comes
> from road use tax applied on liquid fuels. So say you fill up your gas
> tank and pay a bunch of taxes to maintain the roads and I plug my car in
> and don't pay towards those same roads? And it even gets more bizarre
> with the road use tax. In my state some of that money goes to subsidize
> fares on SEPTA (Philly mass transit). I get that mass transit is a good
> thing but why shouldn't its users pay the cost of a fare? Why should
> someone who may never even go there pay for someone to use Philly mass
> transit?

I know that here in RI they debated using a mileage tax but get this,
they were still going to keep the tax on the gasoline too. So if you had
a gasoline engine you pay twice, electrics pay once.

Needless to say this one never saw the light of day.

>
>> On 2012-09-11, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>
>>> That's kind of pricey for what is effectively a golf cart. The
>>> typical golf cart costs like $3K and has a range of about 50 miles.
>>



But it's not street legal and can't be registered or insured in most
(all?) states.

gloria p

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 21:43:27 -0400, T >
wrote:

>
> Define high. I pay a combined rate of 14 cents per kWh here which I
> consider just slightly obscene.

I'm impressed! But you could be making it up.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sep 12, 9:08*am, Dave Smith > wrote:
> On 12/09/2012 9:47 AM, George wrote:
>
> > There are more implications than that. Most of the highway money comes
> > from road use tax applied on liquid fuels. So say you fill up your gas
> > tank and pay a bunch of taxes to maintain the roads and I plug my car in
> > and don't pay towards those same roads? And it even gets more bizarre
> > with the road use tax.
>
> This province has been known not to tax some alternative fuels as a way
> of encouraging people to switch to more sustainable forms of transporttion.

gloria p wrote:
>
>>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>>That's kind of pricey for what is effectively a golf cart. The
>>typical golf cart costs like $3K and has a range of about 50 miles.
>
>But it's not street legal and can't be registered or insured in most
>(all?) states.

It's very easy to make a golf cart street legal, in fact they can be
purchased street legal, as street legal as a moped. My tractors are
street legal, so long as the farm vehical triangle is affixed at the
rear and I use the flashers when on the road... I have headlights,
tail lights, directionals, fog lights, windshield wiper/washer, window
defoggers, power steering, heat, A/C, 4WD ... actually tractors today
come better equipped than any automobile. The only feature an
automobile has over my tractor is a higher top speed. Hey, ordinary
bicycles are street legal.

On 9/12/2012 9:45 PM, T wrote:
> In article >, lid says...
>>
>> On 9/12/2012 9:19 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> On 12/09/2012 9:06 AM, sf wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just curious. With the cost of household electricity being so high...
>>>> how much does a full charge cost, how long does it last and how easy
>>>> is it to find a recharging station when they aren't at home?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is one thing to be re-charging from your home, but what about people
>>> living in apartments and condos who are expecting their landlords or
>>> fellow condo owners to pay for the power to run their electric vehicles.
>>> Electric scooters are becoming more popular around here and I often
>>> see them plugged in at various places. For instance, someone at the town
>>> library rides to work on one and plus it in to charge all day. I don't
>>> know how much it costs, but it isn't really fair. They don't get free
>>> gasoline.
>>
>> There are more implications than that. Most of the highway money comes
>> from road use tax applied on liquid fuels. So say you fill up your gas
>> tank and pay a bunch of taxes to maintain the roads and I plug my car in
>> and don't pay towards those same roads? And it even gets more bizarre
>> with the road use tax. In my state some of that money goes to subsidize
>> fares on SEPTA (Philly mass transit). I get that mass transit is a good
>> thing but why shouldn't its users pay the cost of a fare? Why should
>> someone who may never even go there pay for someone to use Philly mass
>> transit?
>
> I know that here in RI they debated using a mileage tax but get this,
> they were still going to keep the tax on the gasoline too. So if you had
> a gasoline engine you pay twice, electrics pay once.

The other one that comes is requiring a mandatory GPS in every vehicle
which would effectively turn every road into a turnpike.

>
> Needless to say this one never saw the light of day.
>

On 9/12/2012 12:07 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 12/09/2012 9:47 AM, George wrote:
>
>
>> There are more implications than that. Most of the highway money comes
>> from road use tax applied on liquid fuels. So say you fill up your gas
>> tank and pay a bunch of taxes to maintain the roads and I plug my car in
>> and don't pay towards those same roads? And it even gets more bizarre
>> with the road use tax.
>
> This province has been known not to tax some alternative fuels as a way
> of encouraging people to switch to more sustainable forms of transporttion.
>
> Almost every major road reconstruction project around her lately has
> seen bike lanes added to the roads. Bikes aren't paying anything for
> road use, thought I imagine that most of the bike riders also own cars
> and are already paying. Since the road taxes on fuel are based on the
> use, those with fuel efficient cars are paying a lot less that those
> with gas guzzlers.
>
>
>
>> In my state some of that money goes to subsidize
>> fares on SEPTA (Philly mass transit). I get that mass transit is a good
>> thing but why shouldn't its users pay the cost of a fare? Why should
>> someone who may never even go there pay for someone to use Philly mass
>> transit?
>
> Fares can put the transit authorities in a Catch 22 situation. In many
> places the it would cost so much to run the transit system that fares
> would be prohibitively high. Those that use public transit because they
> cannot afford a car would not be able to afford the fares. Bear in mind
> that most systems charge fares on the individuals and that can be a
> consideration when travelling by transit. It costs the same to drive and
> park a car with one person or with 6, but it costs 6 times as much for
> that car load of people to go by transit.
>
> One of the problems with car travel is gridlock. By taking a large
> percentage of commuters out of cars and putting them in public transit,
> there are a lot fewer cars on the road. That but carrying 40 passengers
> could be doing the work of 40 cars, each of which would take up road
> space and add to congestion. In theory, subsidizing the city transit
> makes driving easier for the cars.
>

I am all for everyone paying their own way.

On Sep 13, 10:12*am, Andy > wrote:

> The green pebble'd lawns, no lawn mowing, were the standard
> landscaping. You can't grow a lawn in 100 F. year round. That's
> no way to be retired and no place to retire to for that matter,
> imho.
> I got red sun-burned in 10 minutes at 9 AM.
>
> Never did see a golf course!
>
> Screw Ariona!!! *Year round air conditioning? Goodbye social
> security checks!

I was on a business trip to Phoenix one October, at the right time to
see seasonal lawns being installed. Maybe golf courses there are only
open through the winter.

On 9/13/2012 12:06 AM, gloria p wrote:
>
>>
>>> On 2012-09-11, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That's kind of pricey for what is effectively a golf cart. The
>>>> typical golf cart costs like $3K and has a range of about 50 miles.
>>>
>
>
>
> But it's not street legal and can't be registered or insured in most
> (all?) states.
>
> gloria p

Not to mention that the Leaf as an example is an actual car that happens
to be fitted with an electric propulsion system.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:30:48 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
> wrote:



>
>When Volkswagon came out the idea was shops would stock engines. When
>you took your car intot he shop they'd swap in one of the engines in
>stock and then they'd be able to work on the engine after you left then
>put it back into the cycle when their work was complete. Swapping out
>engines did not work in the long run. I figure history will repeat on
>this topic with batteries.

I bet some readers here think that is nuts to do. They never worked
on a VW engine. I've seen them swapped in less than 30 minutes and I
know it has been done even faster. Much faster. How about 1 minute 4
seconds? Out, in, driven away.
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-engine-r...d-speed-video/

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 06:06:50 -0700, sf > wrote:



>>
>> A friend lives outside Philly. His wife has a 10 mile drive to her job
>> and she has a Nissan Leaf and loves the car.
>>
>> http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index
>
>Just curious. With the cost of household electricity being so high...
>how much does a full charge cost, how long does it last and how easy
>is it to find a recharging station when they aren't at home?

I did the numbers on a Chevy Volt. It is cheaper with electric even
at our high rates in New England. The extra cost of an electric car
over a similar gas powered car can be recouped in about 15 years if
you drive enough.

It may happen some day, just not so good yet.

I've never seen a remote charging station, but some are being
installed. Eventually, I Can see parking garages with a plug-in. They
do have them for car heaters in some of the very cold areas of the
country. I used to plug in my Mercedes diesel in the very cold months.
Aside from starting easily, the heater was working quickly too.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:19:39 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:


>
>It is one thing to be re-charging from your home, but what about people
>living in apartments and condos who are expecting their landlords or
>fellow condo owners to pay for the power to run their electric vehicles.
> Electric scooters are becoming more popular around here and I often
>see them plugged in at various places. For instance, someone at the town
>library rides to work on one and plus it in to charge all day. I don't
>know how much it costs, but it isn't really fair. They don't get free
>gasoline.

The scooter can be charged for about a dime or two a day. They are
little more than deep cycle car batteries. If the person lives close,
it is probably ness than a nickel.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:47:02 -0400, George >
wrote:



>
>There are more implications than that. Most of the highway money comes
>from road use tax applied on liquid fuels. So say you fill up your gas
>tank and pay a bunch of taxes to maintain the roads and I plug my car in
>and don't pay towards those same roads?

That time will come. Some states are considering a road use tax on
electrics based on reported mils, others a flat fee every year.
Probably not a good political move yet though as you'd be accused of
stifling non-gas powered cars, etc.


> And it even gets more bizarre
>with the road use tax. In my state some of that money goes to subsidize
>fares on SEPTA (Philly mass transit). I get that mass transit is a good
>thing but why shouldn't its users pay the cost of a fare? Why should
>someone who may never even go there pay for someone to use Philly mass
>transit?

They shouldn't, but most public transportation is subsidized. OTOH,
if you don't drive at all, should any of your tax dollars go to road
building? The loose interpretation is that the roads are used for the
benefit of everyone. Granny has no car, but her groceries are
delivered to the store by truck, etc.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 21:08:48 -0700, sf > wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 21:43:27 -0400, T >
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Define high. I pay a combined rate of 14 cents per kWh here which I
>> consider just slightly obscene.
>
>I'm impressed! But you could be making it up.

Doubt it, we pay 17¢ here.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 07:56:00 -0400, George >
wrote:

>On 9/11/2012 10:02 PM, notbob wrote:
>> On 2012-09-12, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>
>>> It was supposed to be for relatively short trips, I'm sure folks can
>>> dress appropriately for say thirty minutes, even an hour...
>>
>> But, they don't want to. All old retired geezers, here. At 64, I'm
>> the young kid on the block. We lose at least 4-5 per yr.
>>
>> nb
>>
>Why would any of that be necessary? It is a full featured car and looks
>like and operates just like any other car including having heating and A/C.
>

From what I've read, the heat is not all that great. I can't see it
coming close to the BTU availability of a cooling system of a gas
powered car. AC takes a lot of power too. Can you imagine the
batteries needed to power your bedroom AC?

I'd certainly want to see how it works in extremes before putting out
money.