Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:27:31 -1000, pure kona >
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 12:11:45 -0500, Boron Elgar
> > wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:01:46 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Boron Elgar" wrote
> >>>ImStillMags wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>Ever heard of homeopathy? The same applies for homeopathic medicine,
> >>>>>use only the glass dropper, never touch the medicine
> >>>>>with the hands, it changes the chemistry and energy of the medicine.
> >>>>
> >>>> Homeopathy is a crock of shit....something else one should keep one's
> >>>> hands out of.
> >>>
> >snippage...
> >>
> >>And I have not criticized healthy eating, but I reiterate my utter
> >>disdain for homeopathy.
> >>
> >>Boron
> >>
> >>
> >>T
> >
> >You go girl! I am in total agreement.
> >
> >aloha,
> >cea
>
> I believe in good coffee!
>
> Boron


Pharmacology in action LOL.

On 2/2/2010 3:48 PM, Arri London wrote:
>
>
> dsi1 wrote:
>>
>> On 2/1/2010 5:22 AM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>>> There are elements in vegetables and herbs that ARE good for different
>>> elements of the body. All medicine is basically plant based.
>>>
>>
>> This is likely to be true. Plants have had millions of years to develop
>> powerful, complex, chemical compounds that they use as protection
>> against their enemies and to increase their chances of survival. Some of
>> these will mimic insect pheromones to attract useful bugs. That attack
>> to your eyes when you cut an onion is an example of the bulb trying to
>> protect itself.
>
>
> If it were not for plants most of our knowledge of
>> pharmacology might not exist.
>
>
> That discipline is called pharmacognosy. It was a hobby of mine for
> years

Thanks for the info. Pharmacognosy is a $5 word. Good thing I probably
won't ever have to use that one in this life. :-)

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> graham wrote:
>>
>> "Arri London" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > graham wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "blake murphy" > wrote in message
>> >>
>> > <snippage>
>> >
>> >> > some homeopathic doctors might recommend such, which keeps them from
>> >> > being
>> >> > total quacks. barely.
>> >> >
>> >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
>> >> themselves
>> >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't go
>> >> near
>> >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>> >> Graham
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one, was
>> > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific' medicine.
>> > That's common enough in Europe. He used whatever methodologies he
>> > thought would provide the best medical outcome. If he felt a patient
>> > would benefit more from homeopathy or herbalism, then that's what he
>> > used. If scientific medicine would work better, then he used that.
>> >
>> > The mind-body link in healing is well-documented. Our ancestors
>> > understood it quite well, without understanding why. Do a search on
>> > 'mind-body connection' plus 'evidence' to get plenty of sites. Some of
>> > those sites are from reputable medical organisations. Try this one for
>> > a
>> > start:
>> > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/m...nter08pg4.html
>> >
>> But none of that detracts from the fact that homeopathy is a crock of
>> shit,
>> whether you succuss it or not!
>> Graham
>>
>
> I *don't* believe in homeopathy or many other 'alternative' modalities.
> But other people do. If those things help them without causing harm,
> they are free to use them.
>
Quite so! And we are free to mock them!
Graham



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4829 (20100202) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:21:33 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
Pope) wrote:

>Boron Elgar > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:18:52 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
>
>>>Isn't it possible that, on a full moon, new age hippies emit
>>>a biological pheromone that wafts over the fields and is
>>>picked up by the plants and causes them to produce more?
>
>>Don't bogard that joint, my friend.
>
>Interesting. I've never seen this before. The spelling "bogard"
>is in Urban Dictionary but it's clearly not preferred according
>to Google:
>
> Results 1 - 10 of about 169 for "don't bogard that joint"
>
>vs.
>
> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,040,000 for "don't bogart that joint".
>
>I'll have to try using "bogard" in a Scrabble game sometime...
>
>
>Steve

It was just a typo....

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:37:00 -0700, Arri London >
wrote:

>
>
>Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:42:18 -0500, blake murphy
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:45:19 -0700, Arri London wrote:
>> >
>> >> graham wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> "blake murphy" > wrote in message
>> >>>
>> >> <snippage>
>> >>
>> >>>> some homeopathic doctors might recommend such, which keeps them from being
>> >>>> total quacks. barely.
>> >>>>
>> >>> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call themselves
>> >>> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't go near
>> >>> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>> >>> Graham
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one, was
>> >> equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific' medicine.
>> >> That's common enough in Europe. He used whatever methodologies he
>> >> thought would provide the best medical outcome. If he felt a patient
>> >> would benefit more from homeopathy or herbalism, then that's what he
>> >> used. If scientific medicine would work better, then he used that.
>> >>
>> >> The mind-body link in healing is well-documented. Our ancestors
>> >> understood it quite well, without understanding why. Do a search on
>> >> 'mind-body connection' plus 'evidence' to get plenty of sites. Some of
>> >> those sites are from reputable medical organisations. Try this one for a
>> >> start:
>> >> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/m...nter08pg4.html
>> >
>> >herbalism and the 'mind-body link' has ****-all to do with homeopathy,
>> >unless you want to argue that all effects of medicine are the placebo
>> >effect.
>> >
>> >your pal,
>> >blake
>>
>> And saying that the " mind-body link in healing is well-documented" by
>> quoting that particular article is a very serious misreading of the
>> article. Anyone who draws that conclusion from that quoted site does
>> not understand the findings, correlations in general, or the
>> implications of what is written.
>>
>> Boron
>
>Did you actually read it But it is easy to misinterpret what is
>there, as you may well have done.

Of course I read it, otherwise I would not have been able to say you
took away a conclusion that had nothing whatsoever to do with the
article.

Stress causes physical changes in the body. There is nothing
"mind-body" mystical about it. Fight or flight is an excellent example
of it in critters and in us. The body's chemistry changes based on
what happens to it. This hasn't a thing to do with the "mind" or
"healing." It is how the body works, that's all. This isn't mind
control, it is chemical reactions.

Boron

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:35:39 -0700, Arri London >
wrote:


>If someone thinks a homeopathic remedy will cure them, it probably will.

Nonsense. All of this is overarching, exaggerated, minimally
anecdotal rubbish.

Let's see some stats to back up that claim, because were it true, we'd
have little to fear from cancer, or AIDS or resistant TB, now would
we? If all we need is belief to cure illness, then we could replace
hospitals with churches and stock pharmacies with voo-doo dolls.

Really, this is moronic. You should know better.

Boron

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:35:39 -0700, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
>
>>If someone thinks a homeopathic remedy will cure them, it probably will.
>
> Nonsense. All of this is overarching, exaggerated, minimally
> anecdotal rubbish.
>
> Let's see some stats to back up that claim, because were it true, we'd
> have little to fear from cancer, or AIDS or resistant TB, now would
> we? If all we need is belief to cure illness, then we could replace
> hospitals with churches and stock pharmacies with voo-doo dolls.
>
> Really, this is moronic. You should know better.
>
What really angers me about homeopaths is that they are pushing their
"remedies" as ALTERNATIVES to childhood tropical disease vaccination AND
malarial prophylaxis.
Graham



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4831 (20100203) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

"Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
...
> The message >
> from Arri London > contains these words:
>
> Graham wrote
>
>>
>> > >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
>> > >> themselves
>> > >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't go
>> > >> near
>> > >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>> > >> Graham
>
>> > > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one, was
>> > > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific' medicine.
>> > > That's common enough in Europe.
>
> My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
> homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
> who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training, she
> spent a further 2 years
> training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
> of several the NHS provides in Britain).
>
You don't need training to hand out little bottles of distilled water and
sugar pills!!



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4831 (20100203) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

"Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
...
> The message >
> from Arri London > contains these words:
>
> Graham wrote
>
>>
>> > >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
>> > >> themselves
>> > >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't go
>> > >> near
>> > >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>> > >> Graham
>
>> > > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one, was
>> > > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific' medicine.
>> > > That's common enough in Europe.
>
> My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
> homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
> who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training, she
> spent a further 2 years
> training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
> of several the NHS provides in Britain).
>
You don't need training to hand out little bottles of distilled water and
sugar pills!!



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4831 (20100203) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:06:13 -0800 (PST), ImStillMags wrote:

> On Feb 2, 11:56*am, Cindy Hamilton >
> wrote:
>> On Feb 2, 2:38*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
>>
>>> Oh for pity's sake. * Man has been farming by the phases of the moon
>>> for eons.
>>
>> Is there any evidence that it did any good?
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>
> well, mankind is still here, so I guess they did something right.

i think that's more a matter of luck than farming skill.

your pal,
stangelove

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:59:11 -0500, cshenk wrote:

> "Cindy Hamilton" wrote
> ImStillMags wrote:
>
>>> Oh for pity's sake. Man has been farming by the phases of the moon
>>> for eons.
>
>> Is there any evidence that it did any good?
>
> Not planting at moon rise, but watching the seasons with use of the moon to
> time things, is how our ancestors did it. IE: 2 weeks no frost then wait
> for next mid-moon and plant the seeds. Past frost.
>
> Some areas timed on next full moon or would increment '2 weeks no frost, add
> 1/2 a moon' to make it 2 weeks after last frost then plant the seeds.
>
> Generaly you are safe if no frost for 4 weeks. Thats all it is,

that's sort of my view, that it was more a calendar thing. the ancients
might have attributed 'forces' to the moon, but hopefully we've advanced
beyond that, if only by a few inches or so.

(and please, no gibberish about the effect of the moon's gravitational
forces on plants or i may scream.)

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:25:37 -0500, Boron Elgar wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:28:08 -0700, "graham" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
>>> graham wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you think that those who believe in homeopathy are stupid, you should
>>>> look at the latest craze in agricultu Biodynamic farming. They not
>>>> only
>>>> believe in homeopathy but do crazy things by the phases of the moon and
>>>> can
>>>> therefore rightly be called lunatics!
>>>
>>> Yes, they do crazy things, but they achieve record-breaking
>>> yield-per-acre and produce vegetables of outstanding quality.
>>> They were doing a form of soil science long before agricultural
>>> technology caught up with them. Some of their ideas about
>>> caring for the soil actually work, and work well.
>>>
>>But most aspects of their practices are NO different to standard organic
>>farming and confuse the issue. They are essentially organic farmers but add
>>mysticism to the mix.
>>
>
> Stop reading my mind, Graham!
>
> Boron

he's been eating them biodynamical vegetables. they give you mystical
powers!

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:26:49 -0700, graham wrote:

> "Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:28:08 -0700, "graham" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
>>>> graham wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think that those who believe in homeopathy are stupid, you
>>>>> should
>>>>> look at the latest craze in agricultu Biodynamic farming. They not
>>>>> only
>>>>> believe in homeopathy but do crazy things by the phases of the moon and
>>>>> can
>>>>> therefore rightly be called lunatics!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, they do crazy things, but they achieve record-breaking
>>>> yield-per-acre and produce vegetables of outstanding quality.
>>>> They were doing a form of soil science long before agricultural
>>>> technology caught up with them. Some of their ideas about
>>>> caring for the soil actually work, and work well.
>>>>
>>>But most aspects of their practices are NO different to standard organic
>>>farming and confuse the issue. They are essentially organic farmers but
>>>add
>>>mysticism to the mix.
>>>
>>
>> Stop reading my mind, Graham!
>>
> But I'm not psychic!!{;-) But then, no-one is!
> Graham

i am. i can sense that you think it's a boatload of shit.

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:18:52 +0000 (UTC), Steve Pope wrote:

> Boron Elgar > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:56:29 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
>
> wrote:
>
>>>On Feb 2, 2:38*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
>
>>>> Man has been farming by the phases of the moon for eons.
>
>>>Is there any evidence that it did any good?
>
>>Moon phases were used before folks had cell phones with electronic
>>calendars to remind them that the risk of frost was over and it was
>>time to plant.
>
> Isn't it possible that, on a full moon, new age hippies emit
> a biological pheromone that wafts over the fields and is
> picked up by the plants and causes them to produce more?
>
> Steve

why not? it doesn't seem to be helping the new agers get laid.

your pal,
blake

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:55:54 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote:

>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:21:33 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
>> Pope) wrote:
>
>>>I'll have to try using "bogard" in a Scrabble game sometime...
>
> LOL, me too. I can just see the result.
>
> " Yes bogard IS a real word; I saw it on the internet".
>
> <usual scrabble argument follows>
>
> Janet

if you don't want to spring for the official scrabble® dictionary, this is
a pretty good site:

<http://www.morewords.com/>

....or even if you do. the site also gives anagrams and 'words contained
within' the search word.

your pal,
blake

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
.. .
> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:26:49 -0700, graham wrote:
>
>> "Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:28:08 -0700, "graham" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> graham wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that those who believe in homeopathy are stupid, you
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> look at the latest craze in agricultu Biodynamic farming. They
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> believe in homeopathy but do crazy things by the phases of the moon
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> therefore rightly be called lunatics!
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, they do crazy things, but they achieve record-breaking
>>>>> yield-per-acre and produce vegetables of outstanding quality.
>>>>> They were doing a form of soil science long before agricultural
>>>>> technology caught up with them. Some of their ideas about
>>>>> caring for the soil actually work, and work well.
>>>>>
>>>>But most aspects of their practices are NO different to standard organic
>>>>farming and confuse the issue. They are essentially organic farmers but
>>>>add
>>>>mysticism to the mix.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Stop reading my mind, Graham!
>>>
>> But I'm not psychic!!{;-) But then, no-one is!
>> Graham
>
> i am. i can sense that you think it's a boatload of shit.
>
> your pal,
> blake

And I get the sense that you agree with me{;-)
Graham

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:59:11 -0500, cshenk wrote:
>
>> "Cindy Hamilton" wrote
>> ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>>>> Oh for pity's sake. Man has been farming by the phases of the moon
>>>> for eons.
>>
>>> Is there any evidence that it did any good?
>>
>> Not planting at moon rise, but watching the seasons with use of the moon
>> to
>> time things, is how our ancestors did it. IE: 2 weeks no frost then wait
>> for next mid-moon and plant the seeds. Past frost.
>>
>> Some areas timed on next full moon or would increment '2 weeks no frost,
>> add
>> 1/2 a moon' to make it 2 weeks after last frost then plant the seeds.
>>
>> Generaly you are safe if no frost for 4 weeks. Thats all it is,
>
> that's sort of my view, that it was more a calendar thing. the ancients
> might have attributed 'forces' to the moon, but hopefully we've advanced
> beyond that, if only by a few inches or so.
>
> (and please, no gibberish about the effect of the moon's gravitational
> forces on plants or i may scream.)
>
> your pal,
> blake

Perish the thought!{:-)
Graham

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:25:37 -0500, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:28:08 -0700, "graham" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
>>>> graham wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think that those who believe in homeopathy are stupid, you
>>>>> should
>>>>> look at the latest craze in agricultu Biodynamic farming. They not
>>>>> only
>>>>> believe in homeopathy but do crazy things by the phases of the moon
>>>>> and
>>>>> can
>>>>> therefore rightly be called lunatics!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, they do crazy things, but they achieve record-breaking
>>>> yield-per-acre and produce vegetables of outstanding quality.
>>>> They were doing a form of soil science long before agricultural
>>>> technology caught up with them. Some of their ideas about
>>>> caring for the soil actually work, and work well.
>>>>
>>>But most aspects of their practices are NO different to standard organic
>>>farming and confuse the issue. They are essentially organic farmers but
>>>add
>>>mysticism to the mix.
>>>
>>
>> Stop reading my mind, Graham!
>>
>> Boron
>
> he's been eating them biodynamical vegetables. they give you mystical
> powers!
>
Some vignerons have been bitten by the biodynamic bug, or, as Shakespeare
put it so eloquently: "Or have...eaten on the insane root that takes the
reason prisoner."
I will not buy their wines as that will only encourage them!
Graham

James Silverton wrote:
> Jean wrote on Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:40:04 -0500:
>
>
>
>> Yes, but some folk medicine has proven to be valid.
>
> .Certainly, effective medicines are obtainable from natural sources,
> quinine for example. However, a major problem lies in knowing just what
> dose you get from a decoction of a natural product. The drug content can
> depend a lot on what the climate has been and what season the plants are
> collected and the extracts are not controlled and tested by government
> agencies. There are also known natural products that are highly
> effective against particular diseases but have undesirable side effects.
>
All true.

--
Jean B.

J. Clarke wrote:
> Jean B. wrote:
>> Christine Dabney wrote:
>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:16:25 -0800, Mark Thorson >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But what really gets me is
>>>> the food quackery. She'll say this is food is good
>>>> for the joints, or that food is good for the muscles,
>>>> or this other stuff is good for your brain.
>>> No, it may sound like quackery to you, but it seems to me that your
>>> knowledge of Asian medicine/foods and chi, as is it called is
>>> deficit.
>>>
>>> I have heard this a lot from friends who practice Traditional Chinese
>>> Medicine and accupuncture. In that practice, certain foods have
>>> certain qualities, and ARE good for certain things. And a lot of
>>> Asians (and not only Asians) believe that the life force or chi is in
>>> everything.
>>>
>>> I suggest you start reading up on Asian culture and chi and things
>>> like traditional medicine there. A lot of folks scoff at it, but a
>>> lot of folks get a lot of benefit from things like accupuncture,
>>> which is based on chi and maniupulating it. And some folks find
>>> that the traditional medicine of Asian cultures can help when
>>> nothing else can.
>>>
>>> Christine
>> I have come to believe that complementary medicine is the best
>> approach (of course, not including quackery). It is arrogant to
>> believe that, e.g., Asian medicine has no basis.
>
> China has been civilized a long time--it would be surprising if in that time
> they didn't grow some kind of reasonably viable medical establishment. I
> understand that the Chinese medical community is now examining tradtional
> medicine scientifically to see what parts work and what parts don't.
> There's a lot of it and there's not a lot of funding so it's not going to
> happen fast. But Chinese traditional medicine is not anything at all like
> homeopathy.
>
Yes, that is about why I think we can't just dismiss Chinese etc.
medicine. Sure, we don't want to adopt it in toto, nor do we want
to dismiss all Western medicine. We should have an approach that
encompasses all valid forms or medicine.

--
Jean B.

Jean wrote on Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:04:32 -0500:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Jean B. wrote:
>>> Christine Dabney wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:16:25 -0800, Mark Thorson
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But what really gets me is
>>>>> the food quackery. She'll say this is food is good
>>>>> for the joints, or that food is good for the muscles,
>>>>> or this other stuff is good for your brain.
>>>> No, it may sound like quackery to you, but it seems to me
>>>> that your knowledge of Asian medicine/foods and chi, as is it
>>>> called is deficit.
>>>>
>>>> I have heard this a lot from friends who practice
>>>> Traditional Chinese Medicine and accupuncture. In that
>>>> practice, certain foods have certain qualities, and ARE
>>>> good for certain things. And a lot of Asians (and not only
>>>> Asians) believe that the life force or chi is
>>>> in everything.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest you start reading up on Asian culture and chi and
>>>> things like traditional medicine there. A lot of folks
>>>> scoff at it, but a lot of folks get a lot of benefit from
>>>> things like accupuncture, which is based on chi and
>>>> maniupulating it. And some folks find that the
>>>> traditional medicine of Asian cultures can help
>>>> when nothing else can.
>>>>
>>>> Christine
>>> I have come to believe that complementary medicine is the
>>> best approach (of course, not including quackery). It is
>>> arrogant to believe that, e.g., Asian medicine has no basis.
>>
>> China has been civilized a long time--it would be surprising if in
>> that time they didn't grow some kind of reasonably
>> viable medical establishment. I understand that the Chinese medical
>> community is now examining tradtional medicine
>> scientifically to see what parts work and what parts don't.
>> There's a lot of it and there's not a lot of funding so it's not
>> going to happen fast. But Chinese traditional medicine
>> is not anything at all like homeopathy.
> Yes, that is about why I think we can't just dismiss Chinese
> etc. medicine. Sure, we don't want to adopt it in toto, nor
> do we want to dismiss all Western medicine. We should have an
> approach that encompasses all valid forms or medicine.

Mostly Western and I don't include homeopathy or chiropractics (tho'
massage can be helpful). I won't argue against meditation even if its
mystical premises are unlikely. Apart from natural products most others
are manifestations of the placebo effect or plain nonsense.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Janet wrote on Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:57:13 GMT:

>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:55:54 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote:

> >>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:21:33 +0000 (UTC),
> >>> (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I'll have to try using "bogard" in a Scrabble game
> >>>> sometime...
> >>
> >> LOL, me too. I can just see the result.
> >>
> >> " Yes bogard IS a real word; I saw it on the internet".
> >>
> >> <usual scrabble argument follows>
> >>
> >> Janet

>> if you don't want to spring for the official scrabble®
>> dictionary, this is a pretty good site:

>> <http://www.morewords.com/>

>> ....or even if you do. the site also gives anagrams and
>> 'words contained within' the search word.

> Our family has scrabble fights about dictionaries ( "old
> edition") and electronic aids.
> It's supposed to be a game; but not many men know that.

We played Scrabble for many years and ignored the "Official" Scrabble
dictionary but agreed on a household dictionary that would be used. On
the rare occasions that I play Scrabble, the same agreement is used.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
> Jean wrote on Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:04:32 -0500:
>
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> Jean B. wrote:
>>>> Christine Dabney wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:16:25 -0800, Mark Thorson
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But what really gets me is
>>>>>> the food quackery. She'll say this is food is good
>>>>>> for the joints, or that food is good for the muscles,
>>>>>> or this other stuff is good for your brain.
>>>>> No, it may sound like quackery to you, but it seems to me
>>>>> that your knowledge of Asian medicine/foods and chi, as is it called
>>>>> is deficit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have heard this a lot from friends who practice
>>>>> Traditional Chinese Medicine and accupuncture. In that
>>>>> practice, certain foods have certain qualities, and ARE
>>>>> good for certain things. And a lot of Asians (and not only
>>>>> Asians) believe that the life force or chi is
>>>>> in everything.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suggest you start reading up on Asian culture and chi and
>>>>> things like traditional medicine there. A lot of folks
>>>>> scoff at it, but a lot of folks get a lot of benefit from
>>>>> things like accupuncture, which is based on chi and
>>>>> maniupulating it. And some folks find that the
>>>>> traditional medicine of Asian cultures can help
>>>>> when nothing else can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Christine
>>>> I have come to believe that complementary medicine is the
>>>> best approach (of course, not including quackery). It is
>>>> arrogant to believe that, e.g., Asian medicine has no basis.
>>>
>>> China has been civilized a long time--it would be surprising if in that
>>> time they didn't grow some kind of reasonably
>>> viable medical establishment. I understand that the Chinese medical
>>> community is now examining tradtional medicine
>>> scientifically to see what parts work and what parts don't.
>>> There's a lot of it and there's not a lot of funding so it's not going
>>> to happen fast. But Chinese traditional medicine
>>> is not anything at all like homeopathy.
>> Yes, that is about why I think we can't just dismiss Chinese
>> etc. medicine. Sure, we don't want to adopt it in toto, nor
>> do we want to dismiss all Western medicine. We should have an
>> approach that encompasses all valid forms or medicine.
>
> Mostly Western and I don't include homeopathy or chiropractics (tho'
> massage can be helpful). I won't argue against meditation even if its
> mystical premises are unlikely. Apart from natural products most others
> are manifestations of the placebo effect or plain nonsense.
>
I think it was best summarised by John Diamond, the late husband of Nigella
Lawson, who, when he was dying of cancer, received hundreds of
recommendations for quack "alternative" remedies. He maintained that there
is no such thing as Alternative Medicine! There is medicine that works and
that which doesn't.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Snake-Other-.../dp/0099428334
>

Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:37:00 -0700, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:42:18 -0500, blake murphy
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:45:19 -0700, Arri London wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> graham wrote:
>>>>>> "blake murphy" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>> <snippage>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> some homeopathic doctors might recommend such, which keeps them from being
>>>>>>> total quacks. barely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call themselves
>>>>>> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't go near
>>>>>> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one, was
>>>>> equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific' medicine.
>>>>> That's common enough in Europe. He used whatever methodologies he
>>>>> thought would provide the best medical outcome. If he felt a patient
>>>>> would benefit more from homeopathy or herbalism, then that's what he
>>>>> used. If scientific medicine would work better, then he used that.
>>>>>
>>>>> The mind-body link in healing is well-documented. Our ancestors
>>>>> understood it quite well, without understanding why. Do a search on
>>>>> 'mind-body connection' plus 'evidence' to get plenty of sites. Some of
>>>>> those sites are from reputable medical organisations. Try this one for a
>>>>> start:
>>>>> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/m...nter08pg4.html
>>>> herbalism and the 'mind-body link' has ****-all to do with homeopathy,
>>>> unless you want to argue that all effects of medicine are the placebo
>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>>> your pal,
>>>> blake
>>> And saying that the " mind-body link in healing is well-documented" by
>>> quoting that particular article is a very serious misreading of the
>>> article. Anyone who draws that conclusion from that quoted site does
>>> not understand the findings, correlations in general, or the
>>> implications of what is written.
>>>
>>> Boron
>> Did you actually read it But it is easy to misinterpret what is
>> there, as you may well have done.
>
> Of course I read it, otherwise I would not have been able to say you
> took away a conclusion that had nothing whatsoever to do with the
> article.
>
> Stress causes physical changes in the body. There is nothing
> "mind-body" mystical about it. Fight or flight is an excellent example
> of it in critters and in us. The body's chemistry changes based on
> what happens to it. This hasn't a thing to do with the "mind" or
> "healing." It is how the body works, that's all. This isn't mind
> control, it is chemical reactions.
>
> Boron

*I*, unfortunately, am altogether too aware of this phenomenon.

--
Jean B.

James Silverton wrote:
> Jean wrote on Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:04:32 -0500:
>
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> Jean B. wrote:
>>>> Christine Dabney wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:16:25 -0800, Mark Thorson
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But what really gets me is
>>>>>> the food quackery. She'll say this is food is good
>>>>>> for the joints, or that food is good for the muscles,
>>>>>> or this other stuff is good for your brain.
>>>>> No, it may sound like quackery to you, but it seems to me
>>>>> that your knowledge of Asian medicine/foods and chi, as is it
>>>>> called is deficit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have heard this a lot from friends who practice
>>>>> Traditional Chinese Medicine and accupuncture. In that
>>>>> practice, certain foods have certain qualities, and ARE
>>>>> good for certain things. And a lot of Asians (and not only
>>>>> Asians) believe that the life force or chi is
>>>>> in everything.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suggest you start reading up on Asian culture and chi and
>>>>> things like traditional medicine there. A lot of folks
>>>>> scoff at it, but a lot of folks get a lot of benefit from
>>>>> things like accupuncture, which is based on chi and
>>>>> maniupulating it. And some folks find that the
>>>>> traditional medicine of Asian cultures can help
>>>>> when nothing else can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Christine
>>>> I have come to believe that complementary medicine is the
>>>> best approach (of course, not including quackery). It is
>>>> arrogant to believe that, e.g., Asian medicine has no basis.
>>>
>>> China has been civilized a long time--it would be surprising if in
>>> that time they didn't grow some kind of reasonably
>>> viable medical establishment. I understand that the Chinese medical
>>> community is now examining tradtional medicine
>>> scientifically to see what parts work and what parts don't.
>>> There's a lot of it and there's not a lot of funding so it's not
>>> going to happen fast. But Chinese traditional medicine
>>> is not anything at all like homeopathy.
>> Yes, that is about why I think we can't just dismiss Chinese
>> etc. medicine. Sure, we don't want to adopt it in toto, nor
>> do we want to dismiss all Western medicine. We should have an
>> approach that encompasses all valid forms or medicine.
>
> Mostly Western and I don't include homeopathy or chiropractics (tho'
> massage can be helpful). I won't argue against meditation even if its
> mystical premises are unlikely. Apart from natural products most others
> are manifestations of the placebo effect or plain nonsense.
>
I am not into mystical.

--
Jean B.

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:23:42 -0500, "Jean B." > wrote:

>Boron Elgar wrote:

>> Stress causes physical changes in the body. There is nothing
>> "mind-body" mystical about it. Fight or flight is an excellent example
>> of it in critters and in us. The body's chemistry changes based on
>> what happens to it. This hasn't a thing to do with the "mind" or
>> "healing." It is how the body works, that's all. This isn't mind
>> control, it is chemical reactions.
>>
>> Boron
>
>*I*, unfortunately, am altogether too aware of this phenomenon.

What phenomenon?

Boron

Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
> There can be no placebo effect on babies; and I have personal experience
> of child homeopathy (by doctors) being swiftly, totally, permanently
> successful after all conventional treatments and specialists had
> failed.

The placebo effect is working on the parents, not the baby.

> Veterinary homeopathic medicine is very well established in the UK;
> especially popular among stockbreeders and farmers whose
> pedigree studs, racehorses etc are hugely valuable. Obviously, they find
> it works, and there's no placebo effect on animals. These are vets
> fully trained and qualified in conventional vet medicine, before
> additional training in homeopathy, at the same vet schools.

Again, the placebo is working on the trainers, farmers,
etc. And they are the ones evaluating whether it works
or not.

People who believe in homeopathy and want it to work
will tend to remember the "successes" and forget the
failures.

Arri London > wrote:

> I *don't* believe in homeopathy or many other 'alternative' modalities.

Isn't it something that shouldn't be a question of belief in the first
place?

It so happens that the cardinal principle of homeopathy, "similia
similibus curantur" (like cures like), has also come to be one of the
underlying principles of immunotherapy (hyposensitization) and also of
vaccination, both provinces of modern school medicine. This is hardly
surprising, considering the relevant historical and scientific
background. See, for example,
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1297514/pdf/neh141.pdf>.

ObFood: Choucroute soup, from Elizabeth David's _French Country
Cooking_.

Victor

Choucroute Soup
(An unusual soup with a pleasant smoky flavour)

1 lb choucroute (sauerkraut) or the equivalent of tinned choucroute, 2
medium potatoes, 2 rashes bacon, or a bacon bone, or rinds of bacon,
pepper, salt, bayleaf, 6 juniper berries, 2 lumps sugar, 1 oz dried
mushrooms, 1/4 lb uncooked salame sausage or 2 or 3 smoked Frankfurter
sausages, 2 pints stock or water, 2 oz cream.

Put the choucroute into a large pan; add the potatoes, peeled and cut
up small, the dried mushrooms, the bacon, or the bacon bone or rind, the
herbs and seasonings and the stock or water. Simmer for about 1 hour.
Put all through a sieve. Return to the pan.
Cut up the sausage, and cook it in the soup for 15 minutes. Before
serving, stir in the cream and, if you like, some grated cheese as well.

graham wrote:
>
> "Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The message >
> > from Arri London > contains these words:
> >
> > Graham wrote
> >
> >>
> >> > >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
> >> > >> themselves
> >> > >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't go
> >> > >> near
> >> > >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
> >> > >> Graham
> >
> >> > > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one, was
> >> > > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific' medicine.
> >> > > That's common enough in Europe.
> >
> > My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
> > homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
> > who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training, she
> > spent a further 2 years
> > training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
> > of several the NHS provides in Britain).
> >
> You don't need training to hand out little bottles of distilled water and
> sugar pills!!
>


Actually you do. There are times when placebo would be dangerous. The
training is to know when those times come up.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
> The message >
> from Arri London > contains these words:
>
> Graham wrote
>
> >
> > > >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
> > > >> themselves
> > > >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't go near
> > > >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
> > > >> Graham
>
> > > > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one, was
> > > > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific' medicine.
> > > > That's common enough in Europe.
>
> My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
> homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
> who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training, she
> spent a further 2 years
> training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
> of several the NHS provides in Britain).
>
> http://www.nhsggc.org.uk/content/def...62&loc_id=2533
>
> All the doctors there,
> are qualified in conventional medicine. That hospital , works in
> conjunction with the Beatson Institute ( world famous cancer treatment
> and research centre)
> to provide some of the latest homeopathic cancer treatments.
>
> > Many effects of medical practice (whether pharmaceuticals or procedures)
> > are indeed due to placebo. Any clinical trial runs up against that and
> > must make statistical allowances.
>
> http://www.adhom.com/adh_download/EV....0_Sept_06.pdf
>
> > If someone thinks a homeopathic remedy will cure them, it probably will.
>
> There can be no placebo effect on babies; and I have personal experience
> of child homeopathy (by doctors) being swiftly, totally, permanently
> successful after all conventional treatments and specialists had
> failed.

There it is. Healing is a complicated phenomenon and one size doesn't
always fit all.


> Veterinary homeopathic medicine is very well established in the UK;
> especially popular among stockbreeders and farmers whose
> pedigree studs, racehorses etc are hugely valuable. Obviously, they find
> it works, and there's no placebo effect on animals. These are vets
> fully trained and qualified in conventional vet medicine, before
> additional training in homeopathy, at the same vet schools.
>
> Janet (Scotland).
>

A Taiwanese former colleague of mine is a veterinarian. She trained in
acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine as well as the same training any
Western animal doctor would receive. She said the same thing, in that
there can be no placebo effect with animals. Had never thought about
acupuncture being used for animals, but it is common enough there.

>

Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:35:39 -0700, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
> >If someone thinks a homeopathic remedy will cure them, it probably will.
>
> Nonsense. All of this is overarching, exaggerated, minimally
> anecdotal rubbish.

A lot of medical research starts with anecdotes. Practitioners compare
notes about some condition or another and it grows from there.


>
> Let's see some stats to back up that claim, because were it true, we'd
> have little to fear from cancer, or AIDS or resistant TB, now would
> we? If all we need is belief to cure illness, then we could replace
> hospitals with churches and stock pharmacies with voo-doo dolls.
>
> Really, this is moronic. You should know better.
>
> Boron

I do know better LOL. Many years of working medical research with
patients in hospitals and spending a very long time going through
medical journals and patient records has given me a different
perspective. Clearly your experience in medical research hasn't.

People die anyway of cancers, resistant TB and AIDS despite advanced
'scientific' treatment. If other modalities help, why not use them?

As I said, I don't believe in many of those 'alternative' treatments.
But I'm not the one under treatment.

dsi1 wrote:
>
> On 2/2/2010 3:48 PM, Arri London wrote:
> >
> >
> > dsi1 wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2/1/2010 5:22 AM, ImStillMags wrote:
> >>
> >>> There are elements in vegetables and herbs that ARE good for different
> >>> elements of the body. All medicine is basically plant based.
> >>>
> >>
> >> This is likely to be true. Plants have had millions of years to develop
> >> powerful, complex, chemical compounds that they use as protection
> >> against their enemies and to increase their chances of survival. Some of
> >> these will mimic insect pheromones to attract useful bugs. That attack
> >> to your eyes when you cut an onion is an example of the bulb trying to
> >> protect itself.
> >
> >
> > If it were not for plants most of our knowledge of
> >> pharmacology might not exist.
> >
> >
> > That discipline is called pharmacognosy. It was a hobby of mine for
> > years
>
> Thanks for the info. Pharmacognosy is a $5 word. Good thing I probably
> won't ever have to use that one in this life. :-)


LOL. Play Scrabble much?

Arri London wrote:
>
> A Taiwanese former colleague of mine is a veterinarian. She trained in
> acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine as well as the same training any
> Western animal doctor would receive. She said the same thing, in that
> there can be no placebo effect with animals. Had never thought about
> acupuncture being used for animals, but it is common enough there.

When I took a neuroanatomy course in college,
the professor had just returned from China and
was gushing with enthusiasm for acupuncture.
I asked her how she knew it wasn't placebo
effect, and she admitted that there could be
a lot of that in there, but as counterevidence
she showed a photo of a row of chickens that
supposedly had been rendered unconscious by
acupuncture anaesthesia. That couldn't be
placebo effect, right?

Unfortunately, I did not know at that time
about the phenomenon of hypnotizing chickens,
otherwise I would have pointed out that this
is not evidence for the effectiveness of
acupuncture anaesthesia.

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> graham wrote:
>>
>> "Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > The message >
>> > from Arri London > contains these words:
>> >
>> > Graham wrote
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
>> >> > >> themselves
>> >> > >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't
>> >> > >> go
>> >> > >> near
>> >> > >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>> >> > >> Graham
>> >
>> >> > > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one,
>> >> > > was
>> >> > > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific'
>> >> > > medicine.
>> >> > > That's common enough in Europe.
>> >
>> > My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
>> > homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
>> > who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training,
>> > she
>> > spent a further 2 years
>> > training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
>> > of several the NHS provides in Britain).
>> >
>> You don't need training to hand out little bottles of distilled water and
>> sugar pills!!
>>
>
>
> Actually you do. There are times when placebo would be dangerous. The
> training is to know when those times come up.

Then why is it that homeopaths are pushing their quackery as an alternative
to vaccination against childhood and tropical diseases as well as a malarial
prophlaxis?
Graham

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> graham wrote:
>>
>> "Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > The message >
>> > from Arri London > contains these words:
>> >
>> > Graham wrote
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
>> >> > >> themselves
>> >> > >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't
>> >> > >> go
>> >> > >> near
>> >> > >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>> >> > >> Graham
>> >
>> >> > > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one,
>> >> > > was
>> >> > > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific'
>> >> > > medicine.
>> >> > > That's common enough in Europe.
>> >
>> > My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
>> > homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
>> > who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training,
>> > she
>> > spent a further 2 years
>> > training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
>> > of several the NHS provides in Britain).
>> >
>> You don't need training to hand out little bottles of distilled water and
>> sugar pills!!
>>
>
>
> Actually you do. There are times when placebo would be dangerous. The
> training is to know when those times come up.

Then why is it that homeopaths are pushing their quackery as an alternative
to vaccination against childhood and tropical diseases as well as a malarial
prophlaxis?
Graham

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> graham wrote:
>>
>> "Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > The message >
>> > from Arri London > contains these words:
>> >
>> > Graham wrote
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
>> >> > >> themselves
>> >> > >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't
>> >> > >> go
>> >> > >> near
>> >> > >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>> >> > >> Graham
>> >
>> >> > > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one,
>> >> > > was
>> >> > > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific'
>> >> > > medicine.
>> >> > > That's common enough in Europe.
>> >
>> > My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
>> > homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
>> > who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training,
>> > she
>> > spent a further 2 years
>> > training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
>> > of several the NHS provides in Britain).
>> >
>> You don't need training to hand out little bottles of distilled water and
>> sugar pills!!
>>
>
>
> Actually you do. There are times when placebo would be dangerous. The
> training is to know when those times come up.

Then why is it that homeopaths are pushing their quackery as an alternative
to vaccination against childhood and tropical diseases as well as a malarial
prophlaxis?
Graham

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> graham wrote:
>>
>> "Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > The message >
>> > from Arri London > contains these words:
>> >
>> > Graham wrote
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > >> There is no such thing as a homeopathic doctor! They might call
>> >> > >> themselves
>> >> > >> such but they are QUACKS!!! If an MD dabbles in it, I wouldn't
>> >> > >> go
>> >> > >> near
>> >> > >> him/her as they are bloody idiots!!
>> >> > >> Graham
>> >
>> >> > > Would beg to differ. Our family doctor, when I were a little one,
>> >> > > was
>> >> > > equally trained in homeopathy, herbalism and 'scientific'
>> >> > > medicine.
>> >> > > That's common enough in Europe.
>> >
>> > My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
>> > homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
>> > who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training,
>> > she
>> > spent a further 2 years
>> > training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
>> > of several the NHS provides in Britain).
>> >
>> You don't need training to hand out little bottles of distilled water and
>> sugar pills!!
>>
>
>
> Actually you do. There are times when placebo would be dangerous. The
> training is to know when those times come up.

Then why is it that homeopaths are pushing their quackery as an alternative
to vaccination against childhood and tropical diseases as well as a malarial
prophlaxis?
Graham

Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:23:42 -0500, "Jean B." > wrote:
>
>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>>> Stress causes physical changes in the body. There is nothing
>>> "mind-body" mystical about it. Fight or flight is an excellent example
>>> of it in critters and in us. The body's chemistry changes based on
>>> what happens to it. This hasn't a thing to do with the "mind" or
>>> "healing." It is how the body works, that's all. This isn't mind
>>> control, it is chemical reactions.
>>>
>>> Boron
>> *I*, unfortunately, am altogether too aware of this phenomenon.
>
> What phenomenon?
>
> Boron

The mind-body connection, particularly in the case of stress/anxiety.

--
Jean B.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:55:15 -0700, "graham" > wrote:

>
>"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> graham wrote:
>>>
>>> "Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
>>
>>> >
>>> > My NHS GP /family doctor, is also a fully trained and qualified
>>> > homeopathic doctor. Its one of the services she offers to her patients
>>> > who want it. After her medical training, and specialist GP training,
>>> > she
>>> > spent a further 2 years
>>> > training at the Homeopathic hospital which the NHS runs in Glasgow (one
>>> > of several the NHS provides in Britain).
>>> >
>>> You don't need training to hand out little bottles of distilled water and
>>> sugar pills!!
>>>
>>
>>
>> Actually you do. There are times when placebo would be dangerous. The
>> training is to know when those times come up.
>
>Then why is it that homeopaths are pushing their quackery as an alternative
>to vaccination against childhood and tropical diseases as well as a malarial
>prophlaxis?
>Graham


There are those in Britain who are not happy with the NHS blowing
money on homeopathy foolishness, and the main defense is that patients
seem to like it. That's swell, I bet some of them would like bon-bons
and pole dancers, too, so perhaps the NHS could fund that.

The reason that homeopathy is given any official consideration on that
side of the pond is Prince Charles, who is even arguing agains
proposed EU rules that would close up shop for alternative med quacks.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ew-eu-rules.do

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...cine-nhs-more4

Homeopathy, which many doctors argue has an effect only in the mind of
the believer, cost the cash-strapped NHS £12m over three years,
according to figures released under the Freedom of Information Act.

Homeopathic treatments have been described as "biologically
implausible" by the UK's only professor of complementary medicine,
Edzard Ernst of Exeter University. They are highly diluted solutions
that may contain no discernible trace of the original ingredients. In
2005, The Lancet, one of the world's leading medical journals,
published a major review of homeopathy and concluded its cures were no
better than placebos. Some doctors have since called for the NHS to
stop funding it.

But a response to a freedom of information request by More4 News
revealed that the NHS is spending millions on what Professor Ernst and
others say are the equivalent of sugar pills. The total cost to the
NHS of homeopathic treatment between 2005 and 2008 was £11.89m.

Over the three years, there were 68,647 treatment "episodes" – each
episode is treatment for one patient but some patients may have been
treated more than once. The average cost per episode was £173, which
breaks down to £151 for each outpatient treated and £3,066 for each
inpatient.

The biggest spenders on homeopathy are some of the London primary care
trusts (PCTs), which may be partly explained by the presence of the
Royal London Homeopathic hospital in Camden. The hospital has been
part of University College London hospitals trust since 2002,
coinciding with a government move to integrate complementary and
conventional medicine in the NHS. The hospital also offers other
alternative therapies for which there is more robust scientific
evidence.

The total spend on homeopathy by Camden PCT was £1.86m, followed by
Barnet PCT with £863,625 and Islington with £815,918. Kensington and
Chelsea and City and Hackney PCTs both spent more than £500,000 on
homeopathic treatments.

Evan Harris MP, a doctor and science spokesman for the Liberal
Democrats in the House of Commons, said the NHS should not be spending
money on unproven treatments.

"It is fundamentally wrong that a treatment that's known not to be
effective, that's known not to work in any meaningful way beyond the
placebo effect, is being given some form of stamp of approval, even
for the modest claims that are made of this product by an organisation
that is founded on scientific tests of effectiveness," he said.

But Dr Peter Fisher of the Royal London Homeopathic hospital defended
the use of the treatment, claiming the benefits seen by some patients
were not just imaginary. "There is strong evidence that patients
benefit in the long term," he said. "There is also an issue of
democracy ... I wouldn't do it for two minutes if I thought it was a
placebo."

David Peters, director of integrated medicine at the University of
Westminster, argued that NHS money was being spent on treatment that
patients chose.

"The overarching question is what is the NHS prepared to pay for? The
people who go to the homeopathic hospital go there because they want
to and they like it. They say it makes them better, it makes them feel
better. If they didn't go to the homeopathic hospital, they would go
elsewhere. And they cost money to look after. So how do you square
that circle?" he asked.

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:00:33 -0500, "Jean B." > wrote:

>Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:23:42 -0500, "Jean B." > wrote:
>>
>>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>>>> Stress causes physical changes in the body. There is nothing
>>>> "mind-body" mystical about it. Fight or flight is an excellent example
>>>> of it in critters and in us. The body's chemistry changes based on
>>>> what happens to it. This hasn't a thing to do with the "mind" or
>>>> "healing." It is how the body works, that's all. This isn't mind
>>>> control, it is chemical reactions.
>>>>
>>>> Boron
>>> *I*, unfortunately, am altogether too aware of this phenomenon.
>>
>> What phenomenon?
>>
>> Boron
>
>The mind-body connection, particularly in the case of stress/anxiety.


That has nothing to do with "mind-body" other than brain is part of
your body.

If there is some sort of mind-body healing connection, why don't folks
use their super powers to cure themselves of AIDS, TB or cancer, or
maybe something even simpler, a run of the mill strep infection.

Boron