I'd omit the ground beef and substitute a few beef marrow bones. Throw in
some pork - chops are ok. You're tomato-heavy - bag the tomato juice and
lighten up on the paste. I'd use fresh parsley and basil if available.

Paul


"Kswck" > wrote in message
et...
> 46 oz can tomatoe juice
> 12 oz can tomatoe paste
> 24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
> 2 cups onions-chopped
> 3-4 cloves garlic minced
> 6 tblsp dried parsley
> 2-3 tblsp oil
> 2-3 bls 90% ground beef
> 2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
>
> Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in separate
> pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
> stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
> dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
> serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
> Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
>
>

"Kswck" > wrote in message
et...
> 46 oz can tomatoe juice
> 12 oz can tomatoe paste
> 24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
> 2 cups onions-chopped
> 3-4 cloves garlic minced
> 6 tblsp dried parsley
> 2-3 tblsp oil
> 2-3 bls 90% ground beef
> 2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
>
> Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in separate
> pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
> stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
> dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
> serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
> Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
>
>

Well, you said that you wanted opinions ... I can't imagine why you are
using 46 oz of tomato juice. Ditto canned mushrooms. Ditto dried parsley or
dried basil. These are the herbs least conducive to drying successfully.
Where's the wine and the carrots and celery? The addition of a nice mild
Italian sausage would certainly help as would proscuitto or pancetta. I also
like to simmer the meats in milk after reducing them in wine and before
adding any tomatoes or tomato paste. Sauté sliced fresh mushrooms in olive
oil or butter and add towards the end of the simmering time.

I'd definitely take a pass on the recipe as written. I've posted my version
of a tomato meat sauce in the past and I've included a shortened version of
it below.

3 tbl EV olive oil
4 oz pancetta diced
2 medium yellow onions minced
2 stalks celery with leaves minced
2 carrots minced
3 to 5 cloves garlic minced
8 oz ground veal
8 oz boneless pork loin or mild Italian sausage (casings removed)
8 oz ground beef skirt steak
2 to 4 oz prosciutto di parma, diced
1 1/4 cup dry red wine
1 1/2 cups home made poultry/meat stock
2 cups milk
2 to 3 28 oz cans of whole plum tomatoes with juice

S & P
fresh or oregano and rosemary
3 to4 tbl double concentrate tomato paste

The tricks to making a nice bolognese is to take time and care in browning
the
meat, slowly adding the meat /poultry stock and simmering in milk which
sweetens the meat.

Heat a large skillet over medium high heat, add the olive oil and when hot
add
the diced pancetta, onions, celery, carrots and garlic and sauté until the
onions begin to color, stirring frequently. This should take about 10
minutes. At this point I stir in some fresh or dried herbs.

Lower the heat to medium and add the meat . The next step is fairly
critical you want to brown the meat stirring frequently and breaking it up.
Initially it will give off liquid and then turn an ugly shade of gray. Once
all of the liquid evaporates the meats will begin to brown and the meat will
begin to form a glaze on the bottom of the pan. You want a glaze to form but
not to burn so you need to scrap and stir the meat. Turn down the heat if
necessary. You need to brown the meat for about 15 minutes *after* all of
the
liquid has evaporated until the ground meats are a deep brown. Remove the
contents to a strainer and drain out excess fat if you want to lighten the
cholesterol load. Add the wine to the skillet
and deglaze the pan, scrapping the brown bits from the bottom of the pan.
Reduce the wine by half and add to a large pot along with the drained meats
and vegetables. Reduce until wine is almost completely evaporated.

Add 1/2 cup of the stock to the pot with the meats and simmer until the
stock
evaporates, stirring occasionally. Then add another 1/2 cup of stock and
simmer gently until this also evaporates. It should take about 10 minutes
per
half cup to disappear. Add the last half cup stock along with all of the
milk. Partially cover the pot and let simmer gently for at least one hour or
until almost all of the milk has been absorbed my the meat.
Checking occasionally to make sure the meats aren't sticking to the bottom
of
the pan. Add the tomatoes, crushing them as you put them in the pan, and
about half the juice. If you like tomato flavor add some concentrated tomato
paste as well. Reserve the remainder of the juice and add some to the pot if
things begin to look dry and simmer for about one more hour. Season with
salt
and pepper.

Enjoy!

Kate

thank you
"pjw" > wrote in message
...
> I'd omit the ground beef and substitute a few beef marrow bones. Throw in
> some pork - chops are ok. You're tomato-heavy - bag the tomato juice and
> lighten up on the paste. I'd use fresh parsley and basil if available.
>
> Paul
>
>
> "Kswck" > wrote in message
> et...
> > 46 oz can tomatoe juice
> > 12 oz can tomatoe paste
> > 24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
> > 2 cups onions-chopped
> > 3-4 cloves garlic minced
> > 6 tblsp dried parsley
> > 2-3 tblsp oil
> > 2-3 bls 90% ground beef
> > 2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
> >
> > Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in
separate
> > pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
> > stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
> > dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
> > serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
> > Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
> >
> >
>
>

"Kate B" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Kswck" > wrote in message
> et...
> > 46 oz can tomatoe juice
> > 12 oz can tomatoe paste
> > 24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
> > 2 cups onions-chopped
> > 3-4 cloves garlic minced
> > 6 tblsp dried parsley
> > 2-3 tblsp oil
> > 2-3 bls 90% ground beef
> > 2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
> >
> > Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in
separate
> > pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
> > stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
> > dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
> > serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
> > Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
> >
> >
>
> Well, you said that you wanted opinions ... I can't imagine why you are
> using 46 oz of tomato juice. Ditto canned mushrooms. Ditto dried parsley
or
> dried basil. These are the herbs least conducive to drying successfully.
> Where's the wine and the carrots and celery? The addition of a nice mild
> Italian sausage would certainly help as would proscuitto or pancetta. I
also
> like to simmer the meats in milk after reducing them in wine and before
> adding any tomatoes or tomato paste. Sauté sliced fresh mushrooms in olive
> oil or butter and add towards the end of the simmering time.
>
> I'd definitely take a pass on the recipe as written. I've posted my
version
> of a tomato meat sauce in the past and I've included a shortened version
of
> it below.
>
> 3 tbl EV olive oil
> 4 oz pancetta diced
> 2 medium yellow onions minced
> 2 stalks celery with leaves minced
> 2 carrots minced
> 3 to 5 cloves garlic minced
> 8 oz ground veal
> 8 oz boneless pork loin or mild Italian sausage (casings removed)
> 8 oz ground beef skirt steak
> 2 to 4 oz prosciutto di parma, diced
> 1 1/4 cup dry red wine
> 1 1/2 cups home made poultry/meat stock
> 2 cups milk
> 2 to 3 28 oz cans of whole plum tomatoes with juice
>
> S & P
> fresh or oregano and rosemary
> 3 to4 tbl double concentrate tomato paste
>
> The tricks to making a nice bolognese is to take time and care in browning
> the
> meat, slowly adding the meat /poultry stock and simmering in milk which
> sweetens the meat.
>
> Heat a large skillet over medium high heat, add the olive oil and when hot
> add
> the diced pancetta, onions, celery, carrots and garlic and sauté until the
> onions begin to color, stirring frequently. This should take about 10
> minutes. At this point I stir in some fresh or dried herbs.
>
> Lower the heat to medium and add the meat . The next step is fairly
> critical you want to brown the meat stirring frequently and breaking it
up.
> Initially it will give off liquid and then turn an ugly shade of gray.
Once
> all of the liquid evaporates the meats will begin to brown and the meat
will
> begin to form a glaze on the bottom of the pan. You want a glaze to form
but
> not to burn so you need to scrap and stir the meat. Turn down the heat if
> necessary. You need to brown the meat for about 15 minutes *after* all of
> the
> liquid has evaporated until the ground meats are a deep brown. Remove the
> contents to a strainer and drain out excess fat if you want to lighten the
> cholesterol load. Add the wine to the skillet
> and deglaze the pan, scrapping the brown bits from the bottom of the pan.
> Reduce the wine by half and add to a large pot along with the drained
meats
> and vegetables. Reduce until wine is almost completely evaporated.
>
> Add 1/2 cup of the stock to the pot with the meats and simmer until the
> stock
> evaporates, stirring occasionally. Then add another 1/2 cup of stock and
> simmer gently until this also evaporates. It should take about 10 minutes
> per
> half cup to disappear. Add the last half cup stock along with all of the
> milk. Partially cover the pot and let simmer gently for at least one hour
or
> until almost all of the milk has been absorbed my the meat.
> Checking occasionally to make sure the meats aren't sticking to the bottom
> of
> the pan. Add the tomatoes, crushing them as you put them in the pan, and
> about half the juice. If you like tomato flavor add some concentrated
tomato
> paste as well. Reserve the remainder of the juice and add some to the pot
if
> things begin to look dry and simmer for about one more hour. Season with
> salt
> and pepper.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Kate
>
>



Why would you put carrots and celery in spaghetti sauce?

This recipe look to me like the kind of cooking we did in my college
cafeteria, just scaled down. It doesn't strike me as one I'd like to make
and seems to be lacking in several areas.

I'd bag the tomato juice altogether, use fresh tomatoes or canned with
juice. I'd use maybe 4 tablespoons of paste at most. For liquid I'd use
any stock, vegetable, beef or even chicken. The dried parsley won't do a
thing for the recipe as it cooks so long the delicate flavor would be
overcome. If you have to have it, use fresh, whole parsley and simply
remove it from the sauce after about an hour of cooking. The large amount
of beef makes this more of a ragout not a sauce. Some nice spicy Italian
sausage would be so much better. Also, why use canned mushrooms? Try fresh
mushrooms. I like to throw them in whole. I call them mushballs.

Also, I'd use much more garlic but that is just my own taste.

Paul


"Kswck" > wrote in message
et...
> 46 oz can tomatoe juice
> 12 oz can tomatoe paste
> 24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
> 2 cups onions-chopped
> 3-4 cloves garlic minced
> 6 tblsp dried parsley
> 2-3 tblsp oil
> 2-3 bls 90% ground beef
> 2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
>
> Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in separate
> pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
> stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
> dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
> serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
> Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
>
>

Kswck wrote:

> Why would you put carrots and celery in spaghetti sauce?

Why would you not trim up all the extraneous bandwidth just to ask that
question? Geeesh.
Some folks believe celery and carrots add to a sauces flavor. I imagine your
sauce (as posted) is in need of it, for a start.
Goomba

Kswck wrote:
>
> "Kate B" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > "Kswck" > wrote in message
> > et...
> > > 46 oz can tomatoe juice
> > > 12 oz can tomatoe paste
> > > 24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
> > > 2 cups onions-chopped
> > > 3-4 cloves garlic minced
> > > 6 tblsp dried parsley
> > > 2-3 tblsp oil
> > > 2-3 bls 90% ground beef
> > > 2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
> > >
> > > Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in
> separate
> > > pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
> > > stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
> > > dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
> > > serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
> > > Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Well, you said that you wanted opinions ... I can't imagine why you are
> > using 46 oz of tomato juice. Ditto canned mushrooms. Ditto dried parsley
> or
> > dried basil. These are the herbs least conducive to drying successfully.
> > Where's the wine and the carrots and celery?

<snip>
> >
>
> Why would you put carrots and celery in spaghetti sauce?

Just another version, related to 'Bolognese' style pasta. Would
typically contain celery and carrots, along with the minced/chopped veal
(with red wine added and reduced) and bacon/pancetta.

Your original recipe might turn out very salty with canned mushrooms and
tomato juice.

One of my favourite spaghetti sauces is just fresh garlic and fresh
tomatoes warmed up in good olive oil, with a small scrap of unsalted
butter added at the last moment.
It works with tinned tomatoes as well, provided they are good quality.

"Kswck" > wrote in message
et...
> 46 oz can tomatoe juice
> 12 oz can tomatoe paste
> 24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
> 2 cups onions-chopped
> 3-4 cloves garlic minced
> 6 tblsp dried parsley
> 2-3 tblsp oil
> 2-3 bls 90% ground beef
> 2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
>
> Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in separate
> pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
> stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
> dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
> serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
> Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
>
>

I sure would encourage you to think about using fresh ingredients. The
difference is pretty noticeable. That means fresh parsley and no canned
tomato juice. Just leave out the juice and reduce the tomato paste to a
heaping tbsp. In keeping with its Italian roots, the oil should be olive
oil and, personally, I'd leave out the hamburger.

I lived in Campana for a while many years ago and the Neopolitans sometimes
threw a hunk of pork into the tomato sauce and simmered it for hours until
the meat fell apart. You could do the same with a hunk of beef and the
results would be more satisfying than hamburger. Or you could add some
flavor with a hearty herb such as basil or maybe a little wine.

Keep experimenting. I think recipe development is one of the most
enjoyable parts of cooking. Who knows, you might come up with something
really special. All those famous pasta sauces like marinara, pesto,
carbonara, alfredo etc. came from some inventive cook experimenting in the
kitchen. Good cooking.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

"Kswck" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kate B" > wrote in message
<mega mega mega snip>
> Why would you put carrots and celery in spaghetti sauce?
>
>
Carrots because they add sweetness and flavor and celery because it adds
flavor. They are fairly traditional to meat and tomato based pasta sauces.
The sauce I posted is not a traditional Bolognese because it contains much
more tomato than you would see in a true Bolognese but absolutely nothing
like the tomato juice and tomato paste overwhelmed recipe that you posted
and requested comment on. I've already noted my fairly serious objections
to what was posted so I won't belabor the point. Try my recipe or utilize
some of the other suggestions made. You can *only* improve your sauce by
*any* of them.

Kate

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 20:09:50 GMT, "Kswck" > wrote:

>46 oz can tomatoe juice
>12 oz can tomatoe paste
>24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
>2 cups onions-chopped
>3-4 cloves garlic minced
>6 tblsp dried parsley
>2-3 tblsp oil
>2-3 bls 90% ground beef
>2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
>
>Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in separate
>pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
>stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
>dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
>serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
>Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
>

Not sure about the tomato juice. Maybe some beef stock, as another
respondant mentioned? I also agree about the fresh mushrooms instead
of canned.. Adding fresh parsley at the end of cooking would preserve
it's flavor better, I think. Better color for sure. You might also
try adding some fennel seeds to the sauce with the liquids. Since
it's a major flavor in Italian sausage, it does nice things to a
tomato-based spaghetti sauce if you don't put any sausage in it.


modom

"Kswck" > wrote in message
et...
> 46 oz can tomatoe juice
> 12 oz can tomatoe paste
> 24 oz can whole tomatoes-fresh tomatoes if in season
> 2 cups onions-chopped
> 3-4 cloves garlic minced
> 6 tblsp dried parsley
> 2-3 tblsp oil
> 2-3 bls 90% ground beef
> 2-3 4oz cans mushrooms
>
> Combine oil, onions, garlic. Fry till translucent. Brown meat in separate
> pan, drain. Add everything to pot and bring to boil. Lower to simmer,
> stirring frequently. At each stir, cover the top of the pot with either
> dried basil or oregano(both home dried). An hour and a half later,
> serve-although it tastes better the next day-over pasta.
> Works well with sausage as well, if taken from the casings.
>
>

I think you'd have more of the meat flavor if you cook the meat with the
garlic, oil, and onions. Add a big pinch of salt when you add the meat and
you'll get a good amount of juice. Also, I think fresh mushrooms might make
for a better sauce.
Mia

"Kate B" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Kswck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Kate B" > wrote in message
> <mega mega mega snip>
> > Why would you put carrots and celery in spaghetti sauce?
> >
> >
> Carrots because they add sweetness and flavor and celery because it adds
> flavor. They are fairly traditional to meat and tomato based pasta
sauces.
> The sauce I posted is not a traditional Bolognese because it contains much
> more tomato than you would see in a true Bolognese but absolutely nothing
> like the tomato juice and tomato paste overwhelmed recipe that you posted
> and requested comment on. I've already noted my fairly serious
objections
> to what was posted so I won't belabor the point. Try my recipe or utilize
> some of the other suggestions made. You can *only* improve your sauce by
> *any* of them.
>
> Kate
>

I've used carrots, celery, zucchini and spinach in my spaghetti sauce. It's
all good!

Kili