Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. I'd been
wanting one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing
with specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.

Is it just me, or is this a really messy business? I use my regular
chef's knife to dismember the fowl into the familiar components then use
the cleaver to hack them into smaller pieces.

The cleaver is sharp and heavy. Feels good in the hand. But trying to
chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller sections causes a certain
amount of splatter.

Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
safety glasses normal?

Kathleen wrote on Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:49:33 -0500:

> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business? I use my
> regular chef's knife to dismember the fowl into the familiar
> components then use the cleaver to hack them into smaller
> pieces.

> The cleaver is sharp and heavy. Feels good in the hand. But
> trying to chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller
> sections causes a certain amount of splatter.

>Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron
>and safety glasses normal?

Butchers do wear aprons you know!


--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Oct 24, 9:49*am, Kathleen > wrote:
> Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. *I'd been
> wanting one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing
> with specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>
> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business? *I use my regular
> chef's knife to dismember the fowl into the familiar components then use
> the cleaver to hack them into smaller pieces.
>
> The cleaver is sharp and heavy. *Feels good in the hand. *But trying to
> chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller sections causes a certain
> amount of splatter.
>
> Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
> safety glasses normal?

Nope, you're doing nothing wrong. A cleaver is the next best thing to
an axe. It's not designed for fine work, unless perhaps it's a Chinese
cleaver.

Check with your local butcher shop about the apron and glasses. I
beleive they even wear chainmail in some places but thats for the
boning knives not the cleavers.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

John Kane.

On Oct 24, 10:16*pm, John Kane > wrote:
> On Oct 24, 9:49*am, Kathleen > wrote:
>
> > Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. *I'd been
> > wanting one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing
> > with specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>
> > Is it just me, or is this a really messy business? *I use my regular
> > chef's knife to dismember the fowl into the familiar components then use
> > the cleaver to hack them into smaller pieces.
>
> > The cleaver is sharp and heavy. *Feels good in the hand. *But trying to
> > chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller sections causes a certain
> > amount of splatter.
>
> > Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
> > safety glasses normal?
>
> Nope, you're doing nothing wrong. *A cleaver is the next best thing to
> an axe. It's not designed for fine work, unless perhaps it's a Chinese
> cleaver.
>
> *Check with your local butcher shop about the apron and glasses. *I
> beleive they even wear chainmail in some places but thats for the
> boning knives not the cleavers.
>
> John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
>
> John Kane.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=sy6P3E84Dqs
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ5PjWf8hBM

Google may be your friend

Kathleen wrote:
> Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. �

Somebody hates you.

> The cleaver is sharp and heavy. �Feels good in the hand. �But trying to
> chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller sections causes a certain
> amount of splatter.
>
> Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
> safety glasses normal?

Most butchers place the cleaver exactly where they want to cleave and
use a wooden maul to whack the back of the cleaver. You really don't
need a cleaver for poultry, a heavy chefs knife works fine, or a
decent set of poultry shears will have s notch for severing ends of
poultry leg bones...there's never a reason to chop through the meaty
portion, really no reason to hack off the ends.... there's nothing
inside poultry bones that benefits stock, bird bones are hollow and
contain no fatty marrow. The home cook doesn't need a cleaver unless
actually dismembering whole carcasses... the meat that arrives at
butcher shops nowadays contains few bones requiring a cleaver, and for
the few that need cutting they use a band saw, because a cleaver won't
work on chine and marrow bones anyway... if you make roasts requiring
removal of the chine bone get yourself a hack saw... better to ask the
butcher to do it. Whenever sawing roasts or whacking poultry bones
rinse the particals away before cooking, same with meat from the
store. And get rid of that cleaver before you dismember yourself...
there's absolutely no need for a home cook to own a cleaver, other
than to show off (or whack up a spouse), are you going to show off
your left hand when a goodly portion is whacked off?

On Oct 24, 6:49*am, Kathleen > wrote:
> Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. *I'd been
> wanting one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing
> with specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>
> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business? *I use my regular
> chef's knife to dismember the fowl into the familiar components then use
> the cleaver to hack them into smaller pieces.
>
> The cleaver is sharp and heavy. *Feels good in the hand. *But trying to
> chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller sections causes a certain
> amount of splatter.
>
> Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
> safety glasses normal?

I doubt you're doing anything wrong unless you're swinging wildly from
great height. Have you tried placing the cleaver where you want the
cut and then leaning into it with some power? The shorter the swing,
the better control. Another technique used by a friend of ours is to
place the cleaver where you want the cut and then hit the top edge
with a wooden mallet. That said, a small amount of splatter is pretty
much unavoidable.

Perhaps most important, this is definitely a test of the need to keep
your cleaver sharp. The duller it is, the more splatter, so keep it
as sharp as you can. (There was a post a year or more ago from
someone who asked how to keep carrots from jumping off the board when
she sliced them. About a dozen fast replies said, "Sharpen your
knife!") -aem

Kathleen wrote:
>
> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business?


Yes, chopping up meat or fowl is a messy business! That's why real butchers
get paid the big bucks.

I always wear a full frontal apron when cooking. I learned my lesson the
hard way, grease "spatters" will fuse your silk blouse to your chest in an
instant. Ooops!

Jill

"jmcquown" wrote:
> Kathleen wrote:
>
> > Is it just me, or is this a really messy business?
>
> Yes, chopping up meat or fowl is a messy business! �That's why real butchers
> get paid the big bucks.
>

Nonsense! Real butchers get paid what they do because they possess
butchering SKILLS... were it just messy business they'd hire you to do
it for minimum wage.

Sheldon wrote:

> Most butchers place the cleaver exactly where they want to cleave and
> use a wooden maul to whack the back of the cleaver.

Oh, puh-leeez - spare us the bullshit. I have seen hundreds of hours of
butcher work in many types of establishments and not one of them cut
meat or bones this way.

What medication is appropriate for a compulsive liar? Certainly not
alcohol.

-sw

Sheldon wrote:
> "jmcquown" wrote:
>> Kathleen wrote:
>>
>>> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business?
>>
>> Yes, chopping up meat or fowl is a messy business! �That's why real
>> butchers get paid the big bucks.
>>
>
> Nonsense! Real butchers get paid what they do because they possess
> butchering SKILLS... were it just messy business they'd hire you to do
> it for minimum wage.

I wouldn't have the job. I'll gladly pay the butcher a few extra bucks to
do it.

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. I'd been wanting
> one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing with
> specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>
> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business? I use my regular
> chef's knife to dismember the fowl into the familiar components then use
> the cleaver to hack them into smaller pieces.
>
> The cleaver is sharp and heavy. Feels good in the hand. But trying to
> chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller sections causes a certain
> amount of splatter.
>
> Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
> safety glasses normal?
>

Give it to a man and let him do it. He'll walk around with raw chicken
hanging off his face until you mention it.

"cyberduracell" wrote:
> "Kathleen" wrote:
>
> > Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. �I'd been wanting
> > one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing with
> > specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>
>
> > Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
> > safety glasses normal?
>
> Give it to a man and let him do it. He'll walk around with raw chicken
> hanging off his face until you mention it.

Huh... the only man an old Synthroid addict like you knows is a giant
dildo.

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. I'd been wanting
> one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing with
> specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>
> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business? I use my regular
> chef's knife to dismember the fowl into the familiar components then use
> the cleaver to hack them into smaller pieces.
>
> The cleaver is sharp and heavy. Feels good in the hand. But trying to
> chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller sections causes a certain
> amount of splatter.
>
> Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
> safety glasses normal?


A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple sharp chef's knife
is all you need. Yes, cleavers are messy and chickens tend to be pretty
moist. I have two cleavers and never use them.

Paul

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> Sheldon wrote:
>
> > Most butchers place the cleaver exactly where they want to cleave and
> > use a wooden maul to whack the back of the cleaver.
>
> Oh, puh-leeez - spare us the bullshit. I have seen hundreds of hours of
> butcher work in many types of establishments and not one of them cut
> meat or bones this way.
>
> What medication is appropriate for a compulsive liar? Certainly not
> alcohol.

That depends on whether you're the writer or the reader. :-)

"Paul M. Cook" wrote:
>
> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple sharp
> chef's knife is all you need. Yes, cleavers are messy and chickens
> tend to be pretty moist. I have two cleavers and never use them.

But a cleaver has the advantage of also being
a scoop, when you need to transfer cut items
to a holding area or a cooking surface.

I don't usually cook large quantities, so I
can use my knife for that. But if I were cooking
for a large brood, I can see the cleaver as being
the general utility cutting instrument, over a
knife.

jmcquown wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
>> "jmcquown" wrote:
>>> Kathleen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business?
>>>
>>> Yes, chopping up meat or fowl is a messy business! �That's why real
>>> butchers get paid the big bucks.
>>>
>>
>> Nonsense! Real butchers get paid what they do because they possess
>> butchering SKILLS... were it just messy business they'd hire you to do
>> it for minimum wage.
>
> I wouldn't have the job. I'll gladly pay the butcher a few extra bucks
> to do it.
>

How long can you live on the money you are taking from your mother?

-dk

In article >,
"Paul M. Cook" > wrote:

> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple sharp chef's knife
> is all you need.
> Paul

I can disjoint a chicken with a chef's knife (and do) but I believe I
would want the cleaver for whacking the drums and/or thighs into smaller
pieces. For some reason, I don't want to use the same whacking move
with the chef's knife that I would use with the cleaver. Cleaver speaks
to me of sharp tool and brute whacking while chef's knife seems more
'refined.'

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller, Thelma and Louise
On the Road Again - It is Finished

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> In article >,
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote:
>
> > A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple sharp chef's knife
> > is all you need.
> > Paul
>
> I can disjoint a chicken with a chef's knife (and do) but I believe I
> would want the cleaver for whacking the drums and/or thighs into smaller
> pieces. For some reason, I don't want to use the same whacking move
> with the chef's knife that I would use with the cleaver. Cleaver speaks
> to me of sharp tool and brute whacking while chef's knife seems more
> 'refined.'

Yes, that's it! A cleaver is for people who want to exercise base,
brutal characteristics of the human soul. WHACK, WHACK, WHACK,
it makes us feel good! It makes us feel in common with our distant
ancestors who killed and ate animals without once considering the
possibility of transmissable spongiform encephalopathies. What
nobody eats is given to the dog.

Mark Thorson wrote:
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>>
>> In article >,
>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote:
>>
>>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple sharp
>>> chef's knife is all you need.
>>> Paul
>>
>> I can disjoint a chicken with a chef's knife (and do) but I believe I
>> would want the cleaver for whacking the drums and/or thighs into
>> smaller pieces. For some reason, I don't want to use the same
>> whacking move with the chef's knife that I would use with the
>> cleaver. Cleaver speaks to me of sharp tool and brute whacking
>> while chef's knife seems more 'refined.'
>
> Yes, that's it! A cleaver is for people who want to exercise base,
> brutal characteristics of the human soul. WHACK, WHACK, WHACK,
> it makes us feel good! It makes us feel in common with our distant
> ancestors who killed and ate animals without once considering the
> possibility of transmissable spongiform encephalopathies. What
> nobody eats is given to the dog.

Some of us use a cleaver to cut open and portion those bigger, tough-shelled
winter squash -- and we use a rubber mallet to assist. I just can't grip
with my right hand any more and a combination of cleaver and mallet is
handy.
Janet

"Paul M. Cook"
> "Kathleen" > wrote in message
>> Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. I'd been wanting
>> one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing with
>> specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.

> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. > Paul

It certainly is not if diving legs and thighs into 2-3 pieces as required by
some Asian recipes.

"Giusi" > wrote in message
...
> "Paul M. Cook"
>> "Kathleen" > wrote in message
>>> Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. I'd been
>>> wanting one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing
>>> with specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>
>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. > Paul
>
> It certainly is not if diving legs and thighs into 2-3 pieces as required
> by some Asian recipes.
>

You'll find he heel of your chef's knife makes quick work of the very
fragile bones of a chicken. We aren't talking beef bones here. If you like
a cleaver, fine.

Paul
>

Paul M. Cook wrote:

>
> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple sharp chef's knife
> is all you need. Yes, cleavers are messy and chickens tend to be pretty
> moist. I have two cleavers and never use them.
>
> Paul
>
>
It depends what you are trying to accomplish. Lots of Asian dishes are
prepared by cutting the bone in pieces into smaller pieces. Thats where
a cleaver shines.

"Paul M. Cook"
> "Giusi" wrote in message
> >> "Paul M. Cook"

>>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. > Paul
>>
>> It certainly is not if diving legs and thighs into 2-3 pieces as required
>> by some Asian recipes.
>>
>
> You'll find he heel of your chef's knife makes quick work of the very
> fragile bones of a chicken. We aren't talking beef bones here. If you
> like a cleaver, fine.
>
> Paul

You are not cutting the same chickens I am! I would not even try that on my
good knives, because I have already bent the edge of a big cleaver on
thighbones.

"Giusi" > wrote in message
...
> "Paul M. Cook"
>> "Giusi" wrote in message
>> >> "Paul M. Cook"
>
>>>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. > Paul
>>>
>>> It certainly is not if diving legs and thighs into 2-3 pieces as
>>> required by some Asian recipes.
>>>
>>
>> You'll find he heel of your chef's knife makes quick work of the very
>> fragile bones of a chicken. We aren't talking beef bones here. If you
>> like a cleaver, fine.
>>
>> Paul
>
> You are not cutting the same chickens I am! I would not even try that on
> my good knives, because I have already bent the edge of a big cleaver on
> thighbones.

Are you cutting up a chicken or a T-Rex? Bird bones are more air than bone.
Bending a cleaver? On a chicken bone? I thought emus were extinct.

Paul

"George" > wrote in message
...
> Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
>>
>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple sharp chef's
>> knife is all you need. Yes, cleavers are messy and chickens tend to be
>> pretty moist. I have two cleavers and never use them.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
> It depends what you are trying to accomplish. Lots of Asian dishes are
> prepared by cutting the bone in pieces into smaller pieces. Thats where a
> cleaver shines.

So would a band saw. Me, I want a laser saber.

Paul

Melba's Jammin' > wrote:

> Cleaver speaks
> to me of sharp tool and brute whacking

I am not sure you are quite fluent in cleaver-speak, Barbabietola. Here
is the best description of the use of the cleaver given by Chuangtse
(4th century B.C.), as it appears in _The Art of Chinese Cuisine_ by
Hsiang Ju Lin and Tsuifeng Lin.

Bubba

Prince Huei's cook was cutting up a bullock. Every blow of his hand,
every heave of his shoulders, every tread of his foot, every thrust of
his knee, every _whshh_ of rent flesh, every _chhk_ of the chopper, was
in perfect rhythm - like the dance of the Mulberry Grove, like the
harmonious chords of Ching Shou.
"Well-done!" cried the Prince. "Yours is skill indeed!"
"Sire," replied the cook, laying down his chopper, "I have always
devoted myself to Tao, which is higher than mere skill. When I first
began to cut up bullocks, I saw before me whole bullocks. After three
years' practice, I no longer saw whole animals. And now I work with my
mind and not with my eye. My mind works without control of the senses.
Falling back on eternal principles, I glide through such great joints or
cavities as there may be, according to the natural constitution of the
animal. I do not even touch the convolution of the muscle and tendon,
still less attempt to cut through large bones.
"A good cook changes his chopper once a year - because he cuts. An
ordinary cook once a month - because he hacks. But I have had this
chopper for nineteen years, and although I have cut up many thousand
bullocks, its edge is as if fresh from the wetstone. For at the joints
there are always interstices, and the edge of the chopper being without
thickness, it remains only to insert that which is without thickness
into such an interstice. Indeed there is plenty of room for the blade
to move about. It is thus that I have kept my chopper for nineteen
years as though fresh from the wetstone.
"Nevertheless, when I come upon a knotty part which is difficult to
tackle, I am all caution. Fixing my eye on it, I stay my hand, and
gently apply my blade, until with a _hwah_ the part yields like earth
crumbling to the ground. Then I take my chopper, stand up and look
around with an air of triumph. Then, wiping my chopper, I put it
carefully away."
"Bravo!" cried the Prince. "From the words of this cook I have
learnt how to take care of my life."

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> "Paul M." wrote:
>
> > A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. �A simple sharp chef's knife
> > is all you need. �
>
> I can disjoint a chicken with a chef's knife (and do) but I believe I
> would want the cleaver for whacking the drums and/or thighs into smaller
> pieces. �For some reason, I don't want to use the same whacking move
> with the chef's knife that I would use with the cleaver. �Cleaver speaks
> to me of sharp tool and brute whacking while chef's knife seems more
> 'refined.'

Refined-schmined... no whacking, you'll hurt yourself... use the rear
portion of a hefty chefs knife, simply press down with the heel of
your other hand. Thighs disjoint easily. And why would you want to
hack up poultry leg bones, what an awful presentation with all those
sharp splintery ends... don't want the bone, it's easy to debone a
shicken leg, or make em into drumettes... you know how to skin em
back. hehe

Paul M. Cook wrote:

> "Giusi" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Paul M. Cook"
>>
>>>"Kathleen" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>>Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. I'd been
>>>>wanting one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing
>>>>with specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>>
>>>A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. > Paul
>>
>>It certainly is not if diving legs and thighs into 2-3 pieces as required
>>by some Asian recipes.
>>
>
>
> You'll find he heel of your chef's knife makes quick work of the very
> fragile bones of a chicken.

Umm. Nope. Been there, tried that. You're telling me that I ought to
be able to press the blade of my expensive, well sharpened) chef's knife
through a chicken thigh bone using pressure applied by my hand?

We aren't talking beef bones here. If you like
> a cleaver, fine.

I'm not married to the concept of using a cleaver but I've tried most of
the alternatives suggested and found them less than satisfactory. I was
just surprised by the messiness involved with the cleaver. And to the
person who thought that hacked chicken parts would make an ugly
prenentation, go back and read the original post. I'm making a
concentrated stock from a whole chicken. The meat and bones will be
strained out and discarded.

In article >,
Kathleen > wrote:

> Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. I'd been
> wanting one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing
> with specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>
> Is it just me, or is this a really messy business? I use my regular
> chef's knife to dismember the fowl into the familiar components then use
> the cleaver to hack them into smaller pieces.
>
> The cleaver is sharp and heavy. Feels good in the hand. But trying to
> chop a drumstick, for instance, into smaller sections causes a certain
> amount of splatter.
>
> Am I doing something wrong or is the need for a full frontal apron and
> safety glasses normal?

It's all in how you use it. :-) Also known as a chinese chef's knife.
I've actually used mine for neatly deboning chops or chickens. I love
the weight and the way it feels.

Check Youtube for some demos. It's all in the way you hold it...

but don't discount the lowly sharp fillet' knife either. <g> All knives
have their uses!
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article
>,
John Kane > wrote:

> Nope, you're doing nothing wrong. A cleaver is the next best thing to
> an axe. It's not designed for fine work, unless perhaps it's a Chinese
> cleaver.

Which is what I have. The shape is subtly different and makes a LOT of
difference.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article
>,
Nemesis > wrote:

> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=sy6P3E84Dqs
>
> Google may be your friend

Note how he held the knife. That really does make a difference.

I love my Chinese chef's knife/cleaver. :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article >,
"Paul M. Cook" > wrote:

> "Giusi" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Paul M. Cook"
> >> "Giusi" wrote in message
> >> >> "Paul M. Cook"
> >
> >>>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. > Paul
> >>>
> >>> It certainly is not if diving legs and thighs into 2-3 pieces as
> >>> required by some Asian recipes.
> >>>
> >>
> >> You'll find he heel of your chef's knife makes quick work of the very
> >> fragile bones of a chicken. We aren't talking beef bones here. If you
> >> like a cleaver, fine.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >
> > You are not cutting the same chickens I am! I would not even try that on
> > my good knives, because I have already bent the edge of a big cleaver on
> > thighbones.
>
> Are you cutting up a chicken or a T-Rex? Bird bones are more air than bone.
> Bending a cleaver? On a chicken bone? I thought emus were extinct.
>
> Paul

He might be using free range chickens. They tend to have harder bones
than commercially raised meat birds.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

George wrote on Sat, 25 Oct 2008 07:22:43 -0400:

>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple
>> sharp chef's knife is all you need. Yes, cleavers are messy and
>> chickens tend to be pretty moist. I have two cleavers
>> and never use them.
>>
> It depends what you are trying to accomplish. Lots of Asian dishes
> are prepared by cutting the bone in pieces into smaller pieces. Thats
> where a cleaver shines.

Actually, there is a special Japanese cleaver with a properly angled
edge. The only trouble is that the steel of a Japanese knife can be
brittle.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
> In article >,
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote:
>
>> "Giusi" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "Paul M. Cook"
>> >> "Giusi" wrote in message
>> >> >> "Paul M. Cook"
>> >
>> >>>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. > Paul
>> >>>
>> >>> It certainly is not if diving legs and thighs into 2-3 pieces as
>> >>> required by some Asian recipes.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> You'll find he heel of your chef's knife makes quick work of the very
>> >> fragile bones of a chicken. We aren't talking beef bones here. If you
>> >> like a cleaver, fine.
>> >>
>> >> Paul
>> >
>> > You are not cutting the same chickens I am! I would not even try that
>> > on
>> > my good knives, because I have already bent the edge of a big cleaver
>> > on
>> > thighbones.
>>
>> Are you cutting up a chicken or a T-Rex? Bird bones are more air than
>> bone.
>> Bending a cleaver? On a chicken bone? I thought emus were extinct.
>>
>> Paul
>
> He might be using free range chickens. They tend to have harder bones
> than commercially raised meat birds.
> --

I could hack of my foot and not bend either of my cleavers. But then I buy
the best, these are the Jeffrey Dahlmer signature series cleavers. QVC
specials, ya know.

Paul

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
>> "Giusi" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>"Paul M. Cook"
>>>
>>>>"Kathleen" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>Okay, so I got this cleaver as an X-Mas gift last year. I'd been
>>>>>wanting one because some of the chicken stock recipes I'd been playing
>>>>>with specified hacking up a chicken to extract maximum yumminess.
>>>
>>>>A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. > Paul
>>>
>>>It certainly is not if diving legs and thighs into 2-3 pieces as required
>>>by some Asian recipes.
>>>
>>
>>
>> You'll find he heel of your chef's knife makes quick work of the very
>> fragile bones of a chicken.
>
> Umm. Nope. Been there, tried that. You're telling me that I ought to be
> able to press the blade of my expensive, well sharpened) chef's knife
> through a chicken thigh bone using pressure applied by my hand?
>

Yep. I do it all the time wth my seriously expensive knives. No chicken
bone evr dulled a knife. Using a granote countr top as a cutting board,
yeah that will do it. If you think case hardened steel can't hold up to a
porous little spongy chicken bone you're wrong.

> We aren't talking beef bones here. If you like
>> a cleaver, fine.
>
> I'm not married to the concept of using a cleaver but I've tried most of
> the alternatives suggested and found them less than satisfactory. I was
> just surprised by the messiness involved with the cleaver. And to the
> person who thought that hacked chicken parts would make an ugly
> prenentation, go back and read the original post. I'm making a
> concentrated stock from a whole chicken. The meat and bones will be
> strained out and discarded.
>

I can cut chicken bone with a butter knife. Use whatever you like. A
cleaver was made for chopping through very heavy bones like beef ribs, not
some porous matrix of soft calcium.

The ouble with chopping up leg and thigh bones for stock is the dark color
of the marow will make for a muddy looking stock. I never cut up bones, in
fact I often use whole uncut chickens for stock then use the meat in another
dish,

Paul

"James Silverton" > wrote in message
news
> George wrote on Sat, 25 Oct 2008 07:22:43 -0400:
>
>>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple
>>> sharp chef's knife is all you need. Yes, cleavers are messy and
>>> chickens tend to be pretty moist. I have two cleavers
>>> and never use them.
>>>
>> It depends what you are trying to accomplish. Lots of Asian dishes
>> are prepared by cutting the bone in pieces into smaller pieces. Thats
>> where a cleaver shines.
>
> Actually, there is a special Japanese cleaver with a properly angled edge.
> The only trouble is that the steel of a Japanese knife can be brittle.
>

Japanese and Chinse cleavers are very light and thin and not meant for heavy
chopping. I do have a set of several Chinese cleavers which I love. They
are typically high carbon steel and can be brought to razor sharpness very
easily. I was under the idea we were discussing the much heavier butcher's
cleaver which is more like an axe than a knife.

Paul

Paul wrote on Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:10:55 -0700:


> "James Silverton" > wrote in
> message news
>> George wrote on Sat, 25 Oct 2008 07:22:43 -0400:
>>
>>>> A cleaver is overkill for cutting up a chicken. A simple
>>>> sharp chef's knife is all you need. Yes, cleavers are
>>>> messy and chickens tend to be pretty moist. I have two
>>>> cleavers and never use them.
>>>>
>>> It depends what you are trying to accomplish. Lots of Asian dishes
>>> are prepared by cutting the bone in pieces into
>>> smaller pieces. Thats where a cleaver shines.
>>
>> Actually, there is a special Japanese cleaver with a properly
>> angled edge. The only trouble is that the steel of a Japanese
>> knife can be brittle.
>>
> Japanese and Chinse cleavers are very light and thin and not
> meant for heavy chopping. I do have a set of several Chinese cleavers
> which I love. They are typically high carbon steel
> and can be brought to razor sharpness very easily. I was
> under the idea we were discussing the much heavier butcher's cleaver
> which is more like an axe than a knife.

There can be confusion because the typical Japanese or Chinese knife
looks like a cleaver.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

In article >,
"Paul M. Cook" > wrote:

> >> Are you cutting up a chicken or a T-Rex? Bird bones are more air than
> >> bone.
> >> Bending a cleaver? On a chicken bone? I thought emus were extinct.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >
> > He might be using free range chickens. They tend to have harder bones
> > than commercially raised meat birds.
> > --
>
> I could hack of my foot and not bend either of my cleavers. But then I buy
> the best, these are the Jeffrey Dahlmer signature series cleavers. QVC
> specials, ya know.
>
> Paul

Whatever works for you babe. :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

"Victor Sack" > wrote in message
...
> Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>
>> Cleaver speaks
>> to me of sharp tool and brute whacking
>
> I am not sure you are quite fluent in cleaver-speak, Barbabietola. Here
> is the best description of the use of the cleaver given by Chuangtse
> (4th century B.C.), as it appears in _The Art of Chinese Cuisine_ by
> Hsiang Ju Lin and Tsuifeng Lin.
>
> Bubba
>
> Prince Huei's cook was cutting up a bullock. Every blow of his hand,
> every heave of his shoulders, every tread of his foot, every thrust of
> his knee, every _whshh_ of rent flesh, every _chhk_ of the chopper, was
> in perfect rhythm - like the dance of the Mulberry Grove, like the
> harmonious chords of Ching Shou.
> "Well-done!" cried the Prince. "Yours is skill indeed!"
> "Sire," replied the cook, laying down his chopper, "I have always
> devoted myself to Tao, which is higher than mere skill. When I first
> began to cut up bullocks, I saw before me whole bullocks. After three
> years' practice, I no longer saw whole animals. And now I work with my
> mind and not with my eye. My mind works without control of the senses.
> Falling back on eternal principles, I glide through such great joints or
> cavities as there may be, according to the natural constitution of the
> animal. I do not even touch the convolution of the muscle and tendon,
> still less attempt to cut through large bones.
> "A good cook changes his chopper once a year - because he cuts. An
> ordinary cook once a month - because he hacks. But I have had this
> chopper for nineteen years, and although I have cut up many thousand
> bullocks, its edge is as if fresh from the wetstone. For at the joints
> there are always interstices, and the edge of the chopper being without
> thickness, it remains only to insert that which is without thickness
> into such an interstice. Indeed there is plenty of room for the blade
> to move about. It is thus that I have kept my chopper for nineteen
> years as though fresh from the wetstone.
> "Nevertheless, when I come upon a knotty part which is difficult to
> tackle, I am all caution. Fixing my eye on it, I stay my hand, and
> gently apply my blade, until with a _hwah_ the part yields like earth
> crumbling to the ground. Then I take my chopper, stand up and look
> around with an air of triumph. Then, wiping my chopper, I put it
> carefully away."
> "Bravo!" cried the Prince. "From the words of this cook I have
> learnt how to take care of my life."
>

You rock, Victor.

On Oct 24, 5:19*pm, Melba's Jammin' >
wrote:
>
> I can disjoint a chicken with a chef's knife (and do) but I believe I
> would want the cleaver for whacking the drums and/or thighs into smaller
> pieces. *For some reason, I don't want to use the same whacking move
> with the chef's knife that I would use with the cleaver. *Cleaver speaks
> to me of sharp tool and brute whacking while chef's knife seems more
> 'refined.'

I think it's more a matter of your skills and preferences than the
tool itself. Since my start to serious cooking focused on Chinese
cuisine I learned my knife skills as much with the cleaver as the
chef's knife. They really aren't that different. I can do just as
much 'refined' and 'delicate' work with the cleaver as with other
knives, and I probably reach for the cleaver 6 or 8 times as often as
I reach for the chef's knife. Whichever you have the most practice
with will seem the most efficient.

As to chickens, I actually use the skinny boning knife most often if
I'm just cutting it into the usual eight pieces. I find removing the
wishbone easier with the narrow blade. But a number of Chinese dishes
call for the legs and breasts to be cut into smaller pieces and for
that it's always the cleaver. -aem