In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:

> > What is your favorite brand of coffee and why do you like it?

> Fairtrade. It tastes good and the growers are paid fair prices for
> their produce.

Fairtrade is not a brand, but a program. Everything else you said is
correct. In general, fairtrade coffee is fairly good. Not the finest,
but fairly good.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

In article >,
wrote:

> In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
>
> > > What is your favorite brand of coffee and why do you like it?
>
> > Fairtrade. It tastes good and the growers are paid fair prices for
> > their produce.
>
> Fairtrade is not a brand, but a program.

Same diff, it says "Fairtrade" on the bag.

> Everything else you said is
> correct. In general, fairtrade coffee is fairly good. Not the finest,
> but fairly good.

And that's good enough for me. It's more important to me that the
growers are paid a fair price for their produce than I have "picked
today, roasted ten minutes ago, hand ground" wanky coffee.

Miche

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
-- Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:52:22 +1300, Miche wrote:

> In article >,
> wrote:

>> In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:

>>> > What is your favorite brand of coffee and why do you like it?

>>> Fairtrade. It tastes good and the growers are paid fair prices for
>>> their produce.

>> Fairtrade is not a brand, but a program.

> Same diff, it says "Fairtrade" on the bag.

>> Everything else you said is
>> correct. In general, fairtrade coffee is fairly good. Not the finest,
>> but fairly good.

> And that's good enough for me. It's more important to me that the
> growers are paid a fair price for their produce than I have "picked
> today, roasted ten minutes ago, hand ground" wanky coffee.

> Miche

"Waiter water, this coffee tastes like dirt!"
"Of course sir, it was only ground a minute ago".
Boom boom.

--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

"Tim Challenger" <"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at"> wrote in message
s.com...

> "Waiter water, this coffee tastes like dirt!"
> "Of course sir, it was only ground a minute ago".
> Boom boom.
>

Keep the day job, bub ;-P

Jack Comeek

In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
> In article >,
> wrote:

> > In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
> >
> > > > What is your favorite brand of coffee and why do you like it?
> >
> > > Fairtrade. It tastes good and the growers are paid fair prices for
> > > their produce.
> >
> > Fairtrade is not a brand, but a program.

> Same diff, it says "Fairtrade" on the bag.

Yep. But it comes from a bunch of different sources. It is a
certification, like "Organic".

Just as a point of interest, Fairtrade guarantees the farmers a minimum
price per pound, but farmers get greatly in excess of the Fairtrade price
for truly superior coffee at auction. So while Fairtrade offers a very
good program for farmers, they can do even better by improving their
quality to the point where they produce truly superior coffee.


> > Everything else you said is
> > correct. In general, fairtrade coffee is fairly good. Not the finest,
> > but fairly good.

> And that's good enough for me. It's more important to me that the
> growers are paid a fair price for their produce than I have "picked
> today, roasted ten minutes ago, hand ground" wanky coffee.

But the wanky coffee yields a better price to the farmer than Fairtrade.
One rfc poster gets $16.00/lb. for her truly wonderful coffee, while
Fairtrade pays farmers less than $2.00/lb.

Check out the Kenya auction price results. They are available online.
Panama auction prices are available as well. Wanky coffee routinely sells
for multiples of Fairtrade price.

And not that you are at all interested, but coffee lasts for a year or
more in its green state, and tastes best around 24 hours after roasting.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

In article >,
wrote:

> In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
> > In article >,
> > wrote:
>
> > > In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > What is your favorite brand of coffee and why do you like it?
> > >
> > > > Fairtrade. It tastes good and the growers are paid fair prices for
> > > > their produce.
> > >
> > > Fairtrade is not a brand, but a program.
>
> > Same diff, it says "Fairtrade" on the bag.
>
> Yep. But it comes from a bunch of different sources. It is a
> certification, like "Organic".

Ours says where it came from, generally.

> Just as a point of interest, Fairtrade guarantees the farmers a minimum
> price per pound, but farmers get greatly in excess of the Fairtrade price
> for truly superior coffee at auction. So while Fairtrade offers a very
> good program for farmers, they can do even better by improving their
> quality to the point where they produce truly superior coffee.

And some may do that. I don't know.

> > > Everything else you said is
> > > correct. In general, fairtrade coffee is fairly good. Not the finest,
> > > but fairly good.
>
> > And that's good enough for me. It's more important to me that the
> > growers are paid a fair price for their produce than I have "picked
> > today, roasted ten minutes ago, hand ground" wanky coffee.
>
> But the wanky coffee yields a better price to the farmer than Fairtrade.

But it's priced so that I can't afford to buy it.

Miche

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
-- Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

Miche wrote:
>
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
> > In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > What is your favorite brand of coffee and why do you like it?
> > > >
> > > > > Fairtrade. It tastes good and the growers are paid fair prices for
> > > > > their produce.
> > > >
> > > > Fairtrade is not a brand, but a program.
> >
> > > Same diff, it says "Fairtrade" on the bag.
> >
> > Yep. But it comes from a bunch of different sources. It is a
> > certification, like "Organic".
>
> Ours says where it came from, generally.
>
> > Just as a point of interest, Fairtrade guarantees the farmers a minimum
> > price per pound, but farmers get greatly in excess of the Fairtrade price
> > for truly superior coffee at auction. So while Fairtrade offers a very
> > good program for farmers, they can do even better by improving their
> > quality to the point where they produce truly superior coffee.
>
> And some may do that. I don't know.
>
> > > > Everything else you said is
> > > > correct. In general, fairtrade coffee is fairly good. Not the finest,
> > > > but fairly good.
> >
> > > And that's good enough for me. It's more important to me that the
> > > growers are paid a fair price for their produce than I have "picked
> > > today, roasted ten minutes ago, hand ground" wanky coffee.
> >
> > But the wanky coffee yields a better price to the farmer than Fairtrade.
>
> But it's priced so that I can't afford to buy it.
>
> Miche
>

And the last statement about standard coffee yielding a better price to
the farmer is generally not true. The brokers and people in the middle
take the largest cut; the farmers are often in debt year after year.
That is the basis for Fairtrade coffee: the people growing the coffee
get *more* money than they would through the usual channels. The coops
formed eliminate most of those brokers who would otherwise take most of
the profit.

Fairtrade coffee is never too expensive. I cut down my coffee
consumption in order to buy Fairtrade. In the UK it wasn't more
expensive than any other decent coffee and most of the supermarkets
feature it anyway.

While it is still considered a little 'exotic' here locally (In NM) it's
still worth it to me.

Coffee in the US is extremely cheap. Yet the brokers and the roaster and
the retailer make money off of that. The grower gets the smallest cut of
all, as with much agricultural produce.

In rec.food.cooking, Arri London > wrote:

> > > Just as a point of interest, Fairtrade guarantees the farmers a minimum
> > > price per pound, but farmers get greatly in excess of the Fairtrade price
> > > for truly superior coffee at auction. So while Fairtrade offers a very
> > > good program for farmers, they can do even better by improving their
> > > quality to the point where they produce truly superior coffee.
> >


> And the last statement about standard coffee yielding a better price to
> the farmer is generally not true.

Nobody here made any such statement. "Standard" coffee doesn't even yield
enough to the farmer to put food on his table. "Truly superior coffee",
OTOH, yields more to the farmer than Fairtrade coffee.


The brokers and people in the middle
> take the largest cut; the farmers are often in debt year after year.
> That is the basis for Fairtrade coffee: the people growing the coffee
> get *more* money than they would through the usual channels. The coops
> formed eliminate most of those brokers who would otherwise take most of
> the profit.

If you are comparing Fairtrade to commodity coffee production, you are
correct. But nobody here is discussing commodity coffee production.


> Fairtrade coffee is never too expensive. I cut down my coffee
> consumption in order to buy Fairtrade. In the UK it wasn't more
> expensive than any other decent coffee and most of the supermarkets
> feature it anyway.

My point is that "other decent coffee" can yield more to the farmer than
Fairtrade coffee, and "truly superior coffee" usually yields more.

> While it is still considered a little 'exotic' here locally (In NM) it's
> still worth it to me.

Good for you.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

wrote:
>
> In rec.food.cooking, Arri London > wrote:
>
> > > > Just as a point of interest, Fairtrade guarantees the farmers a minimum
> > > > price per pound, but farmers get greatly in excess of the Fairtrade price
> > > > for truly superior coffee at auction. So while Fairtrade offers a very
> > > > good program for farmers, they can do even better by improving their
> > > > quality to the point where they produce truly superior coffee.
> > >
>
> > And the last statement about standard coffee yielding a better price to
> > the farmer is generally not true.
>
> Nobody here made any such statement. "Standard" coffee doesn't even yield
> enough to the farmer to put food on his table. "Truly superior coffee",
> OTOH, yields more to the farmer than Fairtrade coffee.

I don't think so but don't have a cite to hand. It's the people in the
middle who get the most money.

>
> The brokers and people in the middle
> > take the largest cut; the farmers are often in debt year after year.
> > That is the basis for Fairtrade coffee: the people growing the coffee
> > get *more* money than they would through the usual channels. The coops
> > formed eliminate most of those brokers who would otherwise take most of
> > the profit.
>
> If you are comparing Fairtrade to commodity coffee production, you are
> correct. But nobody here is discussing commodity coffee production.
>
> > Fairtrade coffee is never too expensive. I cut down my coffee
> > consumption in order to buy Fairtrade. In the UK it wasn't more
> > expensive than any other decent coffee and most of the supermarkets
> > feature it anyway.
>
> My point is that "other decent coffee" can yield more to the farmer than
> Fairtrade coffee, and "truly superior coffee" usually yields more.

Not really certain of that. After all the growers (the people who do the
work) in most countries don't own the coffee plantations.

>
> > While it is still considered a little 'exotic' here locally (In NM) it's
> > still worth it to me.
>
> Good for you.
>
It's good for everyone

In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:

> > But the wanky coffee yields a better price to the farmer than Fairtrade.

> But it's priced so that I can't afford to buy it.

If you buy Fairtrade coffee, you pay at least as much, and likely more,
than non- Fairtrade coffees which yield more for the farmers. I am not
opposed to Fairtrade. Some other people are, because it does not pay the
farmers as much as they would get by improving quality. Generally, it is
used as a marketing thing. Dunkin Donuts, for example, is selling
Fairtrade coffee. By doing so, they pay less per pound than they would if
they were to buy true specialty coffee, and give the impression that they
are helping farmers. Indeed, they are helping farmers, and the coffee
they get is better than average. but alternatives exist which help the
farmers more, and provide better coffee (and a better value) to consumers.

If helping coffee farmers is something you feel strongly about, another
excellent organization is CoffeeKids.

But anytime you buy specialty coffee, Fairtrade or not, you help farmers,
and anytime you buy supermarket-type canned coffee, you hurt farmers.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 03:37:31 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

>In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
>
>> > But the wanky coffee yields a better price to the farmer than Fairtrade.
>
>> But it's priced so that I can't afford to buy it.
>
>If you buy Fairtrade coffee, you pay at least as much, and likely more,
>than non- Fairtrade coffees which yield more for the farmers. I am not
>opposed to Fairtrade. Some other people are, because it does not pay the
>farmers as much as they would get by improving quality. Generally, it is
>used as a marketing thing. Dunkin Donuts, for example, is selling
>Fairtrade coffee. By doing so, they pay less per pound than they would if
>they were to buy true specialty coffee, and give the impression that they
>are helping farmers. Indeed, they are helping farmers, and the coffee
>they get is better than average. but alternatives exist which help the
>farmers more, and provide better coffee (and a better value) to consumers.
>
>If helping coffee farmers is something you feel strongly about, another
>excellent organization is CoffeeKids.
>
>But anytime you buy specialty coffee, Fairtrade or not, you help farmers,
>and anytime you buy supermarket-type canned coffee, you hurt farmers.

That statement could be made about most farming the world over. Buy
pastured poultry (grass raised) and the farmer gets a bigger cut of
the profits. Buy most anything that eliminates more of the middle men
and the farmer gets more of the profits.

Of course, the price may be half-again, or double, or more, of what
you used to pay in the supermarket so you'll be spending a greater
portion of your discretionary income for it - IF you can afford to do
so.

For the folks who can afford luxury items like specialty coffees this
is all well and good. For the folks who can't or don't want to spend
their discretionary income on such things they'll stick with the
usual.

I think if you can produce a specialty item that commands a higher
premium go for it! I have done the same in the past with eggs and
will do so again in the future. Of course, it cost me more to produce
those eggs than the chicken factories, but they were worth it and to
my customers they were glad to pay it.

But it's a fairly small market relative to the mass produced stuff and
probably always will be. As much as I like Kona coffee (and I do) I'm
not going to pay $13.00-$16.00 a pound for it - which is what Sweet
Marias wants for their green Kona beans. The $4.00-$5.00 a pound
stuff has some possibilities since we don't drink more than about four
cups of coffee in a day. If I drank coffee like I used to when I was
still working graveyard shift even that would be beyond the pale.

......Alan.
--
Curiosity killed the cat -
lack of it is killing mankind.

In rec.food.cooking, A.T. Hagan > wrote:

> That statement could be made about most farming the world over. Buy
> pastured poultry (grass raised) and the farmer gets a bigger cut of
> the profits. Buy most anything that eliminates more of the middle men
> and the farmer gets more of the profits.

Lately, I've been buyig directly from the farmers whenever possible. Then
they get 100%.


> For the folks who can afford luxury items like specialty coffees this
> is all well and good. For the folks who can't or don't want to spend
> their discretionary income on such things they'll stick with the
> usual.

The comparison is not between specialty coffee and commodity coffe, but
rather, between Fairtrade specialty coffee, which yields the farmer (IIRC)
$1.16/lb. and other specialty coffee, which yields the farmer, in some
cases, much more.

> But it's a fairly small market relative to the mass produced stuff and
> probably always will be. As much as I like Kona coffee (and I do) I'm
> not going to pay $13.00-$16.00 a pound for it - which is what Sweet
> Marias wants for their green Kona beans. The $4.00-$5.00 a pound
> stuff has some possibilities since we don't drink more than about four
> cups of coffee in a day.

I rarely spend more than 4 or 5 per pound. Fairtrade usually costs more,
but gives less to the farmers.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

wrote:
>
> In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
>
> > > But the wanky coffee yields a better price to the farmer than Fairtrade.
>
> > But it's priced so that I can't afford to buy it.
>
> If you buy Fairtrade coffee, you pay at least as much, and likely more,
> than non- Fairtrade coffees which yield more for the farmers.


That's probably not true. Few farmers own coffee plantations. At least
with Fairtrade, the people who grow the coffee have a chance to own the
land. If that's not possible, they get a larger share of the profit.

I am not
> opposed to Fairtrade. Some other people are, because it does not pay the
> farmers as much as they would get by improving quality. Generally, it is
> used as a marketing thing. Dunkin Donuts, for example, is selling
> Fairtrade coffee. By doing so, they pay less per pound than they would if
> they were to buy true specialty coffee, and give the impression that they
> are helping farmers.

But Dunking Donuts and similar places have never ever had
top-of-the-line specialty coffee. They never will sell such coffee, as
the profit margin to them would be lower. When people want truly
superior coffee they don't go to either Dunkin Donuts or to Starbuck's.
So it makes sense for those outlets to sell Fairtrade coffee. Everyone
benefits.



Indeed, they are helping farmers, and the coffee
> they get is better than average. but alternatives exist which help the
> farmers more, and provide better coffee (and a better value) to consumers.

You haven't yet provided one instance of this.

>
> If helping coffee farmers is something you feel strongly about, another
> excellent organization is CoffeeKids.
>
> But anytime you buy specialty coffee, Fairtrade or not, you help farmers,
> and anytime you buy supermarket-type canned coffee, you hurt farmers.

You haven't provided any instance that specialty coffee which is not
Fairtrade will help farmers.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:05:43 -0600, Arri London >
wrote:

wrote:
>>
>> In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
>>
>> > > But the wanky coffee yields a better price to the farmer than
Fairtrade.
>>
>> > But it's priced so that I can't afford to buy it.
>>
>> If you buy Fairtrade coffee, you pay at least as much, and likely
more,
>> than non- Fairtrade coffees which yield more for the farmers.
>
>
>That's probably not true. Few farmers own coffee plantations. At
least
>with Fairtrade, the people who grow the coffee have a chance to own
the
>land. If that's not possible, they get a larger share of the profit.
>
>I am not
>> o
>
>You haven't provided any instance that specialty coffee which is not
>Fairtrade will help farmers.

Fair Trade is not applicable to Kona Coffee.

I am a farmer and we have the land lease to 5 acres. We grow Kona a
specialty coffee. When you buy from us, it goes directly to the
farmer. That is who we are.

aloha,
Thunder..





http://www.smithfarms.com
Farmers & Sellers of 100%
Kona Coffee & other Great Stuff

In rec.food.cooking, Arri London > wrote:

> You haven't provided any instance that specialty coffee which is not
> Fairtrade will help farmers.

http://www.laminita.com/
http://www.businesswire.com/webbox/b.../213452051.htm

Hope you find these to be interesting. And as I've said repeatedly, I
have nothing against Fairtrade.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

In article >,
wrote:

> In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
>
> > > But the wanky coffee yields a better price to the farmer than Fairtrade.
>
> > But it's priced so that I can't afford to buy it.
>
> If you buy Fairtrade coffee, you pay at least as much, and likely more,
> than non- Fairtrade coffees which yield more for the farmers. I am not
> opposed to Fairtrade. Some other people are, because it does not pay the
> farmers as much as they would get by improving quality.

They're free to grow what they want and sell it on the open market,
though, right? If they think Fairtrade _isn't_ giving them a fair price
for their produce.

And one thing Fairtrade does is give them a guaranteed minimum price.

> Generally, it is
> used as a marketing thing. Dunkin Donuts, for example, is selling
> Fairtrade coffee. By doing so, they pay less per pound than they would if
> they were to buy true specialty coffee, and give the impression that they
> are helping farmers. Indeed, they are helping farmers, and the coffee
> they get is better than average. but alternatives exist which help the
> farmers more, and provide better coffee (and a better value) to consumers.
>
> If helping coffee farmers is something you feel strongly about, another
> excellent organization is CoffeeKids.

URL?

> But anytime you buy specialty coffee, Fairtrade or not, you help farmers,
> and anytime you buy supermarket-type canned coffee, you hurt farmers.

Yes.

Miche

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
-- Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:

> They're free to grow what they want and sell it on the open market,
> though, right? If they think Fairtrade _isn't_ giving them a fair price
> for their produce.

> And one thing Fairtrade does is give them a guaranteed minimum price.

Yes. And the amount paid is MUCH higher than what the commodity price, or
the price paid by "coyotes" would be. Not only that, but Fairtrade has
certain minimum quality standards, so the coffee tends to be at least
pretty good.

That being said, one can get better coffee, cheaper, and with more going
to the farmer, by other buying methods.

I don't want to make the better be the enemy of the good, however.
Fairtade is good.

> >
> > If helping coffee farmers is something you feel strongly about, another
> > excellent organization is CoffeeKids.

> URL?

http://www.coffeekids.org/

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:52:22 +1300, Miche >
wrote:

>In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> In rec.food.cooking, Miche > wrote:
>>
>> > > What is your favorite brand of coffee and why do you like it?
>>
>> > Fairtrade. It tastes good and the growers are paid fair prices
for
>> > their produce.
>>
>> Fairtrade is not a brand, but a program.
>
>Same diff, it says "Fairtrade" on the bag.
>
>> Everything else you said is
>> correct. In general, fairtrade coffee is fairly good. Not the
finest,
>> but fairly good.
>
>And that's good enough for me. It's more important to me that the
>growers are paid a fair price for their produce than I have "picked
>today, roasted ten minutes ago, hand ground" wanky coffee.
>
>Miche

The Fair Trade demarcation is not available for farmers in the US,
such as we Kona farmers. When you live in the US as we do in Hawaii,
it is assumed correctly that we pay taxes, pay our laborers a fair and
equitable wage, we also follow all US Department of Agriculture rules-
which means that Kona Coffee has never been touched by pesticides
which is not necessarily true of other coffees etc. We also want
Health insurance and the regular middle class America stuff.

I agree with EskWIRED. Fair Trade is not the be-all or end-all
although it is a beginning.

Out to pick coffee all day again.
Aloha,
Thunder
http://www.smithfarms.com
Farmers & Sellers of 100%
Kona Coffee & other Great Stuff

In rec.food.cooking, Smithfarms Pure Kona > wrote:

> I agree with EskWIRED. Fair Trade is not the be-all or end-all
> although it is a beginning.

And if all you got for your coffee was the fair-trade price, you'd be
better off tearing out the coffee trees and building condos...

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

In article >,
Smithfarms Pure Kona > wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:52:22 +1300, Miche >
> wrote:

> >And that's good enough for me. It's more important to me that the
> >growers are paid a fair price for their produce than I have "picked
> >today, roasted ten minutes ago, hand ground" wanky coffee.
>
> The Fair Trade demarcation is not available for farmers in the US,
> such as we Kona farmers.
> When you live in the US as we do in Hawaii,
> it is assumed correctly that we pay taxes, pay our laborers a fair and
> equitable wage, we also follow all US Department of Agriculture rules-
> which means that Kona Coffee has never been touched by pesticides
> which is not necessarily true of other coffees etc. We also want
> Health insurance and the regular middle class America stuff.

Good. I'm glad to hear it.

> I agree with EskWIRED. Fair Trade is not the be-all or end-all
> although it is a beginning.

I never said it was the be-all and end-all. It's just the way I choose
to buy coffee most of the time.

Miche

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
-- Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"