none wrote:

> And that, dear friends, is why I don't go to any sort of restaurant.
> The worst ones are under occupation by unwashed barbarian hordes, and
> the better ones expect their patrons to pay the staff directly so the
> management won't have to do so through wages.
> I want a restaurant that pays its staff well, and which posts a sign
> clearly stating "Please don't tip".
> Far more honest that way, I say.

On the contrary, and I have lived where tips were done as well as
countries where one didn't overtly tip. The price of the meal is going
to go up with out tips as the cost will have to cover the higher wage...
so it ends up being about the same I think. So it is just what you're
used to. I think that a lot of cheapskates complain about tips, yet
will also complain about paying higher prices directly too.
IMO-If one can't afford the "service" on a meal, one should stay home.

Goomba38 wrote:
>
>
> On the contrary, and I have lived where tips were done as well as
> countries where one didn't overtly tip. The price of the meal is going
> to go up with out tips as the cost will have to cover the higher wage...
> so it ends up being about the same I think. So it is just what you're
> used to. I think that a lot of cheapskates complain about tips, yet
> will also complain about paying higher prices directly too.
> IMO-If one can't afford the "service" on a meal, one should stay home.


It isn't just a matter of being cheap. I question the reason I am expected
to pay a larger tip for a more expensive dish, or a more expensive bottle
of wine. It doesn't make any more work for the server if I get a $25 bottle
of wine or a $50, but if I am expected to leave 15% either way I am getting
gouged. I also resent the income of serving staff depending on the
generosity of the customers. Some people are too cheap to tip, and when a
server gets stuck with a table or two of cheapskates they work all night
for next to nothing. If we expect people to pay something for service
chuck it into the menu price so the customers know what they are expected
to pay instead of leaving the payroll to the customers so that your prices
look more attractive. I prefer the common European practice of posting the
price that includes service and tax. What you see on the menu is what you
pay..... no surprises.

Dave Smith > wrote in
:

>I prefer the common European practice of posting the
> price that includes service and tax. What you see on the menu is what
> you pay..... no surprises.
>

Amen. The tipping system is barbaric IMO.

K

Amarantha wrote:
The tipping system is barbaric IMO.



Agreed. The next question is what, if anything, can be done about it.
I'd love to wake up tomorrow and discover that restaurant tipping was a
thing of the past, that every restaurant management paid its servers an
appropriate hourly wage as it does its cooks, and that customers weren't
figuring 20%. The trouble is that if one restaurant did this, the
public wouldn't get it. They'd still expect to tip. That's not
unreasonable when you consider a lifetime of doing it one way isn't
going to be undone when they see (or don't see) a small notice on the
menu. It would take a huge public education effort, and I can't imagine
that any restaurant or government agency would be willing to undertake
one. And why would they? From their point of view, there would be no
point.


--Lia

Julia Altshuler > wrote:

>Amarantha wrote:
>The tipping system is barbaric IMO.

>Agreed. The next question is what, if anything, can be done about it.
>I'd love to wake up tomorrow and discover that restaurant tipping was a
>thing of the past, that every restaurant management paid its servers an
>appropriate hourly wage as it does its cooks, and that customers weren't
>figuring 20%. The trouble is that if one restaurant did this, the
>public wouldn't get it. They'd still expect to tip. That's not
>unreasonable when you consider a lifetime of doing it one way isn't
>going to be undone when they see (or don't see) a small notice on the
>menu. It would take a huge public education effort, and I can't imagine
>that any restaurant or government agency would be willing to undertake
>one. And why would they? From their point of view, there would be no
>point.

From nearly anyone's point of view there is no point in getting
rid of the tipping system. If it were somehow eliminated by
fiat, some diners would decide to tip anyway in an effort to
gain better service. Within a short length of time, we'd
be back exactly where we are now. So it'd be a pointless
exercise.

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> From nearly anyone's point of view there is no point in getting
> rid of the tipping system. If it were somehow eliminated by
> fiat, some diners would decide to tip anyway in an effort to
> gain better service. Within a short length of time, we'd
> be back exactly where we are now. So it'd be a pointless
> exercise.


If I am in a restaurant and notice that I am being neglected because one of
my waiter's other customers is throwing bigger tips I have the option of
throwing big tips myself or walking out and never coming back.

Dave Smith wrote:

> If I am in a restaurant and notice that I am being neglected because one of
> my waiter's other customers is throwing bigger tips I have the option of
> throwing big tips myself or walking out and never coming back.


Or complaining to management. If I got bad service in a supermarket, a
mechanic's garage, a doctor's office, a department store, a bookstore, a
drycleaner, pharmacy, or any of a hundred other sorts of stores and
services, I'd consider my options. Not returning with my business is
one. Considering if I'm just in a bad mood is another. And complaining
to management is a pretty good one. In many cases, they want to know.


I'm not sure I've ever been in a restaurant situation where I thought
someone else was getting better service because they were throwing
bigger tips. (I've had to think about this one.) Usually bad service
is a matter of an incompetent server or incompetent management which
puts the server in an impossible situation. I think this is why I'd do
away with the whole tipping business if I could wave my magic wand and
do it. As far as I can see, tipping is just a complicated and stupid
way of paying wages.


--Lia

Dave Smith > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>> From nearly anyone's point of view there is no point in getting
>> rid of the tipping system. If it were somehow eliminated by
>> fiat, some diners would decide to tip anyway in an effort to
>> gain better service. Within a short length of time, we'd
>> be back exactly where we are now. So it'd be a pointless
>> exercise.

>If I am in a restaurant and notice that I am being neglected because one of
>my waiter's other customers is throwing bigger tips I have the option of
>throwing big tips myself or walking out and never coming back.

I think you do have such an option, what you don't have
any option about (or very few easy options) is whether you live
in a culture where tipping is typical. My own view is that
a tipping culture inevitably develops in societies with
a large amount of wealth diversity because in such societies
(1) you have significant people with "excess" wealth who will
be trying to buy themselves better treatment and (2) in such
societies it's routine to pay some workers less than a living
wage. For most of the past century the U.S. has met this
definition of a wealth-diversity society much closer than
western Europe has. But with economic shifts wealth diversity
is on the rise in Europe also, and so is tipping at restaurants.
This is no coincidence.

I just read that in the U.S. one percent of households now have
a net worth exceeding $5 million ("pentamillionaires"). I'm
guessing that in restaurants above the mid-price level
the fractoin of pentamillionaire customers is 10% or more.
Do you think these people are going to refrain from tipping,
if they think it buys them something?

Steve

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> Agreed. The next question is what, if anything, can be done about it.
> I'd love to wake up tomorrow and discover that restaurant tipping was a
> thing of the past, that every restaurant management paid its servers an
> appropriate hourly wage as it does its cooks, and that customers weren't
> figuring 20%. The trouble is that if one restaurant did this, the
> public wouldn't get it. They'd still expect to tip. That's not
> unreasonable when you consider a lifetime of doing it one way isn't
> going to be undone when they see (or don't see) a small notice on the
> menu. It would take a huge public education effort, and I can't imagine
> that any restaurant or government agency would be willing to undertake
> one. And why would they? From their point of view, there would be no
> point.


We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. He seemed quite
content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than a
token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect for those,
usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are not
expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate being
treated like dancing monkeys.

"Dave Smith" > wrote

> We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
> working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. He seemed quite
> content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than a
> token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect for
> those,
> usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
> wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are
> not
> expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate being
> treated like dancing monkeys.

He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
Sounds like a jerk to me.

nancy

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Dave Smith" > wrote
>
>> We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
>> working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. He seemed quite
>> content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than a
>> token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect for
>> those,
>> usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
>> wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are
>> not
>> expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate being
>> treated like dancing monkeys.
>
> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
> Sounds like a jerk to me.
>
> nancy
>

Au contraire, Ms. N. It's your responsibility as a traveller to research the
customs in the countries you visit. It's not so hard to do, but since 54% of
the population here doesn't read....

Nancy Young wrote:
> "Dave Smith" > wrote
>
>> We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
>> working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. He seemed quite
>> content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than
>> a token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect
>> for those,
>> usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as
>> flaunting wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize
>> that tips are not
>> expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate
>> being treated like dancing monkeys.
>
> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
> Sounds like a jerk to me.

I will bet he doesn't refuse them either!

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> > usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
> > wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are
> > not
> > expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate being
> > treated like dancing monkeys.
>
> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
> Sounds like a jerk to me.


Sure he probably knows that it is customary to tip in the US, but he is not
in the US. If you expect him to understand that it is customary to tip in
the US, the USians should be equally aware that it is not customary there.
He wasn't really a jerk. He was very pleasant. His attitude was that if you
want to throw money at him go ahead, but don't expect to be respected for
it.

On May 16, 9:56�am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
> "Dave Smith" > wrote
>
> > We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
> > working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. *He seemed quite
> > content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than a
> > token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect for
> > those,
> > usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
> > wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are
> > not
> > expected, and not particularly appreciated. *They don't appreciate being
> > treated like dancing monkeys.
>
> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
> the opportunity to sniff a them for doing what they think is right.
> Sounds like a jerk to me.

And naturally the hipocritical jerk does not forego taking the tip.

The only ones I've ever known who don't like the concept of tipping
and don't are those who never frequent the same eatery more than
once... of course the cheap *******s wouldn't dare. People can have
all the reasons in the world but the only true reason certain
individuals (and even entire communities) don't tip is because they're
afflicted with CCBD (Chronic Cheap ******* Disease).

Sheldon

Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan wrote:
>
> When in Germany I would tip per German customs. When in the US tip as an
> American would. When traveling outside the US I have always researched the
> tipping norms in the location I will be traveling. Besides restaurants
> this includes tipping for cab/car fare, hotel maids etc.

Well, the thing is that is what you are going to pay anyway, so why do we
have to play these silly marketing games that disguise the actual cost. If
the hamburger on the menu is $8 you buy it thinking that it is going to
cost you $8, but when you get the bill you see that now there is tax that
has been added to the bill, and you are expected to leave a tip, and it is
likely to be rounded off at $10.50, so why not just list the price at
$10.50 and everyone knows that if they order a hamburger it will cost them
$10.50 and there won't be any surprises.



> I don't disagree with the gratuity being added to a check total. My
> questions would be how would it be done without escalating menu prices to
> unaffordable prices?

If you don't mind it being added to the check, then why should it be a
problem having it added to the menu price along with a note that service
and tax are included? What you see is what you pay. Having eaten in a
number of European countries where tipping was not expected, it was a
pleasant surprise to see a price on the menu and to get the bill and see
was all that I had to pay.

Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:

> Now that I think about it, I do mind gratuity being added to the check. It
> takes away my option to not tip for lousy service.


I mind it being added to the check too.


How often have you really had to tip less because of lousy service? It
hasn't happened to me too often. I'm wondering about others' experience
with this. (And separate out lousy service from something else wrong
with the restaurant like bad food or too loud music.)


--Lia

Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan wrote:

> One thing that irritates the shit out of me is dining out with people that
> need a calculator to subtract the tax on the check and then tip on the
> check total minus the sales tax. Gawd... we're talking pennies in most
> cases. There is a difference between being frugal and being just plain
> cheap. To me this type of tipping is just cheap.

I don't think it is cheap. The taxes here add up to 14%, and that is not
counting the exorbitant taxes on liquor and wine. The rule of thumb is 15%
of the cost of the meal. If you are treating another couple for dinner the
bill could easily run $200 plus tax...... another $28..... another $4.20 as
a bonus for the server who did absolutely nothing for that tax.


> I go out to enjoy dinner, not to agonize over the tip. Life is just too
> short to worry about it. If my check total is $50 I just tack on 20-25%,
> or between $10 and $15. To me it is just easier that way, and much less
> hassle.

Lucky for your server, but what happens if he had a table for 10 and some
tightwad is looking after the bill and leaves not tip, or just a few
dollars. My nephew once waited on a party of ten. The guy is a good waiter
and usually makes good money in tips. No one complained to him about the
food or the service. The big shot who was hosting the party went and spoke
to the manager and complained about the food..... the food that everyone
ate and never complained about to my nephew.... and the guy was comped.
After paying nothing for dinner for 10 in a nice (and expensive)
restaurant, the cheap SOB left a measly $5 tip. My understanding is that
when you get a freebie you should still tip on what the bill would have
been, and in that case, dinner for 10 would have run close to $1,000, hence
a $150 tip.

The worst part is that income tax is based on sales, and he would have been
assessed $150 taxable income that he never got.

Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan wrote:
>
>
>
> I think what the public wouldn't comprehend is their hamburger is now
> $12.00 instead of $8.00.


Did you just pull that $12 or was there a rational accounting that came to
that amount?

Around here there is 7% federal tax and 7 % provincial tax do there goes
another $1.12 and then the 15% tip which seems to be expected whether it
arrives in 15 minutes with a sneer or 5 minutes with a smile... another
$1.20 So now my $8 hamburger is $10.32. If we expect servers to be paid
15% of their sales, and most jurisdictions assess them at 15% of sales at
tax time, then the restaurant should be charging that price, and if every
restaurant charges $10. 32 instead of making it $8 plus the 14% tax plus
the expectation of 15% tip they wouldn't be worrying about the menu price
as a way of hiding the true total cost of the meal.






>
> > They'd still expect to tip. That's not
> > unreasonable when you consider a lifetime of doing it one way isn't
> > going to be undone when they see (or don't see) a small notice on the
> > menu. It would take a huge public education effort, and I can't imagine
> > that any restaurant or government agency would be willing to undertake
> > one. And why would they? From their point of view, there would be no
> > point.
>
> IMO the government is alread entirely too involved in our every day lives.
> Last I heard the IRS taxed wait staff on their "sales" and not the actual
> money a server earns. Sooooo... technically a server could wind up losing
> money if they had a bad night. OTOH, if your theory were enacted, the
> server would make the same if they had a good or a bad night. I suppose
> there are pros and cons to each side of the debate.
>
> Michael
>
> --
> This is how it works in my house. Click the pic to enlarge it:
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=42ko0mf
> -remove "foodie" to email

"Goomba38" > wrote

> none wrote:
>
>> And that, dear friends, is why I don't go to any sort of restaurant.
>> The worst ones are under occupation by unwashed barbarian hordes, and the
>> better ones expect their patrons to pay the staff directly so the
>> management won't have to do so through wages.
>> I want a restaurant that pays its staff well, and which posts a sign
>> clearly stating "Please don't tip".
>> Far more honest that way, I say.
>
> On the contrary, and I have lived where tips were done as well as
> countries where one didn't overtly tip. The price of the meal is going to
> go up with out tips as the cost will have to cover the higher wage... so
> it ends up being about the same I think. So it is just what you're used
> to. I think that a lot of cheapskates complain about tips, yet will also
> complain about paying higher prices directly too.
> IMO-If one can't afford the "service" on a meal, one should stay home.

Well said, Goomba. I liked the part about this story is why they
don't go to restaurants. Yeah, sure, every time I go to a restaurant,
by gumby if a riot doesn't break out. Heh.

nancy

Goomba38 wrote:
> I think that a lot of cheapskates complain about tips, yet
> will also complain about paying higher prices directly too.
> IMO-If one can't afford the "service" on a meal, one should stay home.


Conversely, if the restaurant can't make enough money to pay their staff a
living wage they either need to raise their prices or get out of the
business. If servers can't afford to work the meagre wages paid by their
employer without relying on tips they should demand a raise or find work
elsewhere.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Goomba38 wrote:
>> I think that a lot of cheapskates complain about tips, yet
>> will also complain about paying higher prices directly too.
>> IMO-If one can't afford the "service" on a meal, one should stay home.
>
>
> Conversely, if the restaurant can't make enough money to pay their staff a
> living wage they either need to raise their prices or get out of the
> business. If servers can't afford to work the meagre wages paid by their
> employer without relying on tips they should demand a raise or find work
> elsewhere.


What percentage of restaurants do you believe pay enough to make tips
unimportant?

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

>
> What percentage of restaurants do you believe pay enough to make tips
> unimportant?

In Canada and the US none of them do. They all rely on the generosity of
customers to pay their staff.