"Billy" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Ozgirl" > wrote:
>
>> But you need a fair amount of protein at breakfast IMO, that's why I
>> choose eggs. You could have chicken, beef, fish etc if you prefer. More
>> rather than less protein can sometimes prevent a spike if there are any
>> carbs in the meal.
>>
>>
>> "Todd" wrote in message ...
>>
>> On 03/04/2013 08:18 PM, Ozgirl wrote:
>> > Well, my breakfasts mostly revolve around eggs. Two soft-boiled,
>> > scrambled or 2 fried with a bit of bacon, mushrooms and grilled
>> > tomatoes. This morning I had a slice of toasted Burgen brand soy-lin
>> > bread topped with tomato, FGBP and melted cheese. I am quite boring at
>> > breakfast.
>>
>> Mushroom, tomatoes, and some bacon. That has promise. Thank you!
>>
>> -T
>
> I thought bacon, and lunch meats were all on nutritionist's hit lists.

Who cares? Anyone can call themself a nutritionist. I eat bacon. Not a
lot of it and not often. Occasionally I eat sliced turkey but I don't
really like it that much. That's it for me and the lunch meat. Mostly its
the nitrates that you need to watch out for.
>
> Caught in the middle again. February 13, 2013, A new study from the
> University of Oxford finds vegetarians live longer than people who eat
> meat or fish.

Could be.
>
> Researchers followed 45,000 adults for nearly 20 years, and found that
> vegetarians had a 30 percent lower risk for heart disease.

Could be.
>
> They say vegetarians had lower blood pressure and cholesterol than those
> who ate meat, which could be contributing to their reduced risk for
> heart problems.
>
I must be the odd one out then. Got high BP at about age 25 and high
cholesterol by about age 35. I was a vegetarian.

> Doctors say cutting the amount of salt in the American diet could save
> hundreds of millions of lives. (heart failure)

Which Drs. say that?
>
> And then there is Dr. Mario Martinez, who says that there are no 100
> year old Vegans.

Dunno. Never heard of him. But he's wrong.

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc...18&pst=1441656
>
> What's a boy supposed to do?
>
> Oy.
>
> --
> Welcome to the New America.
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
> or
> E Pluribus Unum
> Next time vote Green Party
>

On 03/12/2013 11:15 PM, Billy wrote:
> Wait for the butter to bubble in a nice cast iron skillet before adding
> the wisked eggs, and cream.

Just eggs and cream? Any s & p?

On 03/12/2013 11:38 PM, Billy wrote:
> In article >,
> "Ozgirl" > wrote:
>
>> But you need a fair amount of protein at breakfast IMO, that's why I
>> choose eggs. You could have chicken, beef, fish etc if you prefer. More
>> rather than less protein can sometimes prevent a spike if there are any
>> carbs in the meal.
>>
>>
>> "Todd" wrote in message ...
>>
>> On 03/04/2013 08:18 PM, Ozgirl wrote:
>>> Well, my breakfasts mostly revolve around eggs. Two soft-boiled,
>>> scrambled or 2 fried with a bit of bacon, mushrooms and grilled
>>> tomatoes. This morning I had a slice of toasted Burgen brand soy-lin
>>> bread topped with tomato, FGBP and melted cheese. I am quite boring at
>>> breakfast.
>>
>> Mushroom, tomatoes, and some bacon. That has promise. Thank you!
>>
>> -T
>
> I thought bacon, and lunch meats were all on nutritionist's hit lists.
>
> Caught in the middle again. February 13, 2013, A new study from the
> University of Oxford finds vegetarians live longer than people who eat
> meat or fish.
>
> Researchers followed 45,000 adults for nearly 20 years, and found that
> vegetarians had a 30 percent lower risk for heart disease.
>
> They say vegetarians had lower blood pressure and cholesterol than those
> who ate meat, which could be contributing to their reduced risk for
> heart problems.
>
> Doctors say cutting the amount of salt in the American diet could save
> hundreds of millions of lives. (heart failure)
>
> And then there is Dr. Mario Martinez, who says that there are no 100
> year old Vegans.
>
> What's a boy supposed to do?
>
> Oy.
>


Hi Billy,

If this was correct, we would not have whole populations of
humans living on this planet that eat zero vegi's and zero fruit.
(Google the Inuit Enigma). Also they eat zero carbs. And they
have no diabetes, no heart disease, no cancer, and no "white man's
diseases".

And, bear in mind that everything they eat is wild caught. Nothing
comes from a disgusting stock yard. No hormones, antibiotics,
pesticides, weed killers, not covered in their own poop, yada,
yada, yada.

If the study is legit and not just political correctness, the
what is "in" the meat that is harming folks needs to be researched.

In my opinion, buy organic and CSA (community supported
agriculture) whenever possible. And find a friend that hunts.

I have a customer that got a moose the year before and it was
more than his family could eat. What a treat! An elk the year
before that. (I hate venison.)

-T

On 03/13/2013 12:39 AM, Julie Bove wrote:
> I must be the odd one out then. Got high BP at about age 25 and high
> cholesterol by about age 35. I was a vegetarian.

Hi Julie,

Not odd. The cholesterol thing is pure Bull S---. Take a look
at the following:

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/23/6/847.full.pdf

And, where it all started:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=xbFQc2kxm9c

Your liver creates what cholesterol you need. And every cell in your
body needs it. And, EVERY hormone (read insulin) uses it as a
precursor.

-T

In article >, Todd >
wrote:

> On 03/12/2013 11:38 PM, Billy wrote:
> > In article >,
> > "Ozgirl" > wrote:
> >
> >> But you need a fair amount of protein at breakfast IMO, that's why I
> >> choose eggs. You could have chicken, beef, fish etc if you prefer. More
> >> rather than less protein can sometimes prevent a spike if there are any
> >> carbs in the meal.
> >>
> >>
> >> "Todd" wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> On 03/04/2013 08:18 PM, Ozgirl wrote:
> >>> Well, my breakfasts mostly revolve around eggs. Two soft-boiled,
> >>> scrambled or 2 fried with a bit of bacon, mushrooms and grilled
> >>> tomatoes. This morning I had a slice of toasted Burgen brand soy-lin
> >>> bread topped with tomato, FGBP and melted cheese. I am quite boring at
> >>> breakfast.
> >>
> >> Mushroom, tomatoes, and some bacon. That has promise. Thank you!
> >>
> >> -T
> >
> > I thought bacon, and lunch meats were all on nutritionist's hit lists.
> >
> > Caught in the middle again. February 13, 2013, A new study from the
> > University of Oxford finds vegetarians live longer than people who eat
> > meat or fish.
> >
> > Researchers followed 45,000 adults for nearly 20 years, and found that
> > vegetarians had a 30 percent lower risk for heart disease.
> >
> > They say vegetarians had lower blood pressure and cholesterol than those
> > who ate meat, which could be contributing to their reduced risk for
> > heart problems.
> >
> > Doctors say cutting the amount of salt in the American diet could save
> > hundreds of millions of lives. (heart failure)
> >
> > And then there is Dr. Mario Martinez, who says that there are no 100
> > year old Vegans.

And now,
³A common assumption is that the rise in levels of atherosclerosis is
predominantly lifestyle-related, and that if modern humans could emulate
pre-industrial or even pre-agricultural lifestyles, that
atherosclerosis, or at least its clinical manifestations, would be
avoided,² Thompson added.

³Our findings seem to cast doubt on that assumption, and at the very
least, we think they suggest that our understanding of the causes of
atherosclerosis is incomplete, and that it might be somehow inherent to
the process of human aging.²
<http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...study-shows-cl
ogged-arteries-are-nothing-new?lite>
> >
Bummer!
Seems nature just wants us out of here so that the next possible set of
adaptations can try their tricks.

> > What's a boy supposed to do?
> >
Oy.
> >
>
>
> Hi Billy,
>
> If this was correct,

If what was correct?

> we would not have whole populations of
> humans living on this planet that eat zero vegi's and zero fruit.

How did we get here from no lunch meat, and not Vegan?

> (Google the Inuit Enigma).
> Also they eat zero carbs. And they
> have no diabetes, no heart disease, no cancer, and no "white man's
> diseases".
Do areas still exist without trading posts (white bread, canned
sausage, booze)?
Yes, meat needs to be eaten raw to preserve its vitamin C, but
do the Inuits have greater longevity? I'm sure this is a nature/nurture
thing, and as usual there isn't anything to be done about nature, so we
are left with nurturing longevity.

>
> And, bear in mind that everything they eat is wild caught. Nothing
> comes from a disgusting stock yard. No hormones, antibiotics,
> pesticides, weed killers, not covered in their own poop, yada,
> yada, yada.
>
> If the study is legit and not just political correctness, the
> what is "in" the meat that is harming folks needs to be researched.

As Pollan said (and I paraphrase), "Eat mostly plants, stay out of the
middle of supermarkets, and don't eat anything your grandmother wouldn't
recognize as food."
>
> In my opinion, buy organic and CSA (community supported
> agriculture) whenever possible. And find a friend that hunts.

Or grow a garden, and buy organic.
>
> I have a customer that got a moose the year before and it was
> more than his family could eat. What a treat! An elk the year
> before that. (I hate venison.)
>
> -T

Sadly, I still, occasionally, get the lust for salami.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Next time vote Green Party

Todd > wrote:
: On 03/12/2013 11:15 PM, Billy wrote:
: > Wait for the butter to bubble in a nice cast iron skillet before adding
: > the wisked eggs, and cream.

: Just eggs and cream? Any s & p?
That is up to you and your taste buds. For me I always put s&p in my
omeletes, scrambled or sunny side up eggs.

Wendy

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/13/2013 12:39 AM, Julie Bove wrote:
>> I must be the odd one out then. Got high BP at about age 25 and high
>> cholesterol by about age 35. I was a vegetarian.
>
> Hi Julie,
>
> Not odd. The cholesterol thing is pure Bull S---. Take a look
> at the following:
>
> http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/23/6/847.full.pdf

I don't know what that link has to do with anything. I did have high
cholesterol but when I quit smoking, I no longer did.
>
> And, where it all started:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=xbFQc2kxm9c

Sorry. Not into videos.
>
> Your liver creates what cholesterol you need. And every cell in your
> body needs it. And, EVERY hormone (read insulin) uses it as a
> precursor.

I didn't say that the body didn't need it.

On 03/13/2013 11:22 AM, Billy wrote:
>> Also they eat zero carbs. And they
>> have no diabetes, no heart disease, no cancer, and no "white man's
>> diseases".

> Do areas still exist without trading posts (white bread, canned
> sausage, booze)?
> Yes, meat needs to be eaten raw to preserve its vitamin C, but
> do the Inuits have greater longevity? I'm sure this is a nature/nurture
> thing, and as usual there isn't anything to be done about nature, so we
> are left with nurturing longevity.

Great point. When the trading posts came, things went to hell.

Here is a good article on it:
http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-p...se-and-cancer/

From the article:
Summing Up

Ok….got all that? Whew….Yes I know alot to read….but loads
important points. Let’s summarize:

The Inuit ate a diet high in meat and fat, low in fruits and
vegetables and still had low rates of heart disease and cancer
(sadly only recently when more modernization came to them in the
form of convenience stores, soda and other processed foods did you
see the illnesses start to increase. Once sugar came to them….
things went sour)

Their meat they ate was completely different from the meat you are
eating. Theirs was wild, fresh, sometimes raw, seal and other animals
that you are probably not going to eat. Not to mention they also ate
the organ meats, which again….most people are not going to do. Because
the animals were wild they were also not fed grains, contained good
amounts of Omega 3s and low amounts of Omega 6s…the opposite of
modern meats.


So I would say, it's is what is in the meat.

Think about the vegetarian lifestyle. If you go purely
vegetarian, the lack of animal nutrition will kill you.
(vitamin B12, etc.). This is not a more healthy anything.

In the third world it is not an issue as vegetarians get
their animal nutrition from all the bugs and bug eggs
in their grains. Also, a lot of them eat figs, which
are extremely high in animal nutrition (if you like and
can still eat figs, don't look at the internals of
a fig under a microscope).

In the west, very few vegetarians are actually true
vegetarians. I have made a habit of asking them
and almost all of them eat fish, eggs, milks and so
forth. Had an interesting conversation with one who
said she would not eat anything with a face. In other
words, nothing cuter than she was. She ate fish and
chicken. Ahem. Both have faces and I think chickens
are quite a bit cuter than she was. They are
also hysterical. (Don't get me started on how pretty
trout are.) With her, it was all about condescending.
What an idiot. I guess she cuts her fish heads off
so they can't stare up at her from her plate and
ask "why?"

Complete vegetarians, which are vary rare, get
very sick eventually. Brain damage and all from
lack of B12, etc.. The one true vegetarian I
have know, got so sick, her doctor told her
to either add a bit of chicken to her diet or
she was going to die. She did and recovered.
She was a really sweet lady too: no condescending
at all. I am glad she recovered.

So, if the study you cite is actually legitimate and
not vegetarian propaganda (pure vegetarian will kill
you where pure meat will not), than I do believe it
is what is in the meat, not the meat itself. We
are not carrion eaters. That is for vultures and ants.
If it moves, it is food. If it doesn't, step over it.
As a society, we eat some pretty discussing meat.

I would also posit that vegetarians tend to eat more
organic stuff than the general population. (Even if
they are not really true vegetarians.) They tend
to be more health conscientious.

>> In my opinion, buy organic and CSA (community supported
>> >agriculture) whenever possible. And find a friend that hunts.

> Or grow a garden, and buy organic.

1+

I suck as a farmer. I will try again this year.

>> >
>> > I have a customer that got a moose the year before and it was
>> >more than his family could eat. What a treat! An elk the year
>> >before that. (I hate venison.)
>> >
>> >-T

> Sadly, I still, occasionally, get the lust for salami.

The hunter I mentioned has his own salami maker. He made
up a bunch of moose salami last year. It was *insanely good*.
No chemicals either. Smokes with with real wood or something,
I don't remember the exact process. He is thinking of going
for an elk this year.

Maybe you could look into your own salami maker?

I am babbling, aren't I?

-T

On 03/13/2013 02:08 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
> "Todd" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 03/13/2013 12:39 AM, Julie Bove wrote:
>>> I must be the odd one out then. Got high BP at about age 25 and high
>>> cholesterol by about age 35. I was a vegetarian.
>>
>> Hi Julie,
>>
>> Not odd. The cholesterol thing is pure Bull S---. Take a look
>> at the following:
>>
>> http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/23/6/847.full.pdf
>
> I don't know what that link has to do with anything. I did have high
> cholesterol but when I quit smoking, I no longer did.

That is because you did not read the link. No problem: no one
likes to be given a homework assignment.

I will summarize for you. The study was posted in the American
Heart Association's journal called Circulation. It is an "autopsy
study" on "Serum Cholesterol and Atherosclerosis in Man". Here is the
conclusion:

No correlation could be observed between the serum
cholesterol level and the amount and severity of
atheroselerosis in the arteries.

In other words, cholesterol and atherosclerosis is pure Bull S---.
And there are lots of other autopsy study with the same conclusion.

>>
>> And, where it all started:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=xbFQc2kxm9c
>
> Sorry. Not into videos.

Oh my goodness, you missed a good one. It is Senator McGovern
jumping chiming in to criticism of their being no evidence:

I can only argue that as I senator I do not have the
luxury that a research scientist has to wait for every last
shread of evidence to come in.

These wasn't and isn't any at all. This is of interest to me as
I wonder a lot if this monkey shine is not being pulled
on diabetics. (So far as I can tell, things are legitimate.
Although, I think a lot of the diabetes drugs will end their
life cycles in class action suites.) Statin-induced rhabdomyolysis
is a nasty way to die.


>>
>> Your liver creates what cholesterol you need. And every cell in your
>> body needs it. And, EVERY hormone (read insulin) uses it as a
>> precursor.
>
> I didn't say that the body didn't need it.

Lowering it is dangerous. Would you like a research article
on how cholesterol is actually protective against atherosclerosis?

-T

In article >, Todd >
wrote:

> On 03/13/2013 11:22 AM, Billy wrote:
> >> Also they eat zero carbs. And they
> >> have no diabetes, no heart disease, no cancer, and no "white man's
> >> diseases".
>
> > Do areas still exist without trading posts (white bread, canned
> > sausage, booze)?
> > Yes, meat needs to be eaten raw to preserve its vitamin C, but
> > do the Inuits have greater longevity? I'm sure this is a nature/nurture
> > thing, and as usual there isn't anything to be done about nature, so we
> > are left with nurturing longevity.
>
> Great point. When the trading posts came, things went to hell.
>
> Here is a good article on it:
> http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-p...disease-and-ca
> ncer/
>
> From the article:
> Summing Up
>
> OkŠ.got all that? WhewŠ.Yes I know alot to readŠ.but loads
> important points. Let¹s summarize:
>
> The Inuit ate a diet high in meat and fat, low in fruits and
> vegetables and still had low rates of heart disease and cancer
> (sadly only recently when more modernization came to them in the
> form of convenience stores, soda and other processed foods did you
> see the illnesses start to increase. Once sugar came to themŠ.
> things went sour)
>
> Their meat they ate was completely different from the meat you are
> eating. Theirs was wild, fresh, sometimes raw, seal and other animals
> that you are probably not going to eat. Not to mention they also ate
> the organ meats, which againŠ.most people are not going to do. Because
> the animals were wild they were also not fed grains, contained good
> amounts of Omega 3s and low amounts of Omega 6sŠthe opposite of
> modern meats.
>
>
> So I would say, it's is what is in the meat.
>
> Think about the vegetarian lifestyle. If you go purely
> vegetarian, the lack of animal nutrition will kill you.
> (vitamin B12, etc.). This is not a more healthy anything.
>
> In the third world it is not an issue as vegetarians get
> their animal nutrition from all the bugs and bug eggs
> in their grains. Also, a lot of them eat figs, which
> are extremely high in animal nutrition (if you like and
> can still eat figs, don't look at the internals of
> a fig under a microscope).
>
> In the west, very few vegetarians are actually true
> vegetarians. I have made a habit of asking them
> and almost all of them eat fish, eggs, milks and so
> forth. Had an interesting conversation with one who
> said she would not eat anything with a face. In other
> words, nothing cuter than she was. She ate fish and
> chicken. Ahem. Both have faces and I think chickens
> are quite a bit cuter than she was. They are
> also hysterical. (Don't get me started on how pretty
> trout are.) With her, it was all about condescending.
> What an idiot. I guess she cuts her fish heads off
> so they can't stare up at her from her plate and
> ask "why?"
>
> Complete vegetarians, which are vary rare, get
> very sick eventually. Brain damage and all from
> lack of B12, etc.. The one true vegetarian I
> have know, got so sick, her doctor told her
> to either add a bit of chicken to her diet or
> she was going to die. She did and recovered.
> She was a really sweet lady too: no condescending
> at all. I am glad she recovered.
>
> So, if the study you cite is actually legitimate and

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677008/>

> not vegetarian propaganda (pure vegetarian will kill
> you where pure meat will not),
A bit of an overstatement, B1 can be supplemented, or yeast can be added
to diet. Protein matching (corn & rice), or Quinoa can give essential
amino acids, and chocolate is a good source of tryptophan.

But,

Somewhere between 30 and 50 percent of the girls and women seeking
treatment for anorexia and bulimia are vegetarian. About a third of
the patients at the eating disorders program at Bloomington Hospital in
Bloomington, Indiana, are vegetarian. At the Harvard Eating Disorder
Clinic it's the same. Sheri Weitz, a nutrition therapist for the Radder
Institute in Los Angeles has fully half her clients identifying as
vegetarian.

The vegetarian women and girls who turn up at eating disorder
clinics in such huge numbers didn't start as anorexics who just hap-
pened to choose a vegetarian diet. It was the other way around. They
started by choosing vegetarianism, and the lack of tryptophan trig-
gered an eating disorder. Zinc deficiency also plays a role in mood dis-
orders and obsessive compulsive behavior, including eating disorders.
And a zinc deficiency is easy to court as a vegetarian.

And dieting produces its own biochemistry. Specifically, the lack
of tryptophan, zinc, and niacin can trigger a full-blown eating disor-
der. Adolescents are most vulnerable because their bodies and brains
are still growing and have higher nutritional needs. Julia Ross has
treated teenage girls who became anorexic while on their very first
diet. The precipitating incident is, essentially, living in this female-
hating culture. What begins as simple dieting ends in an addictive
cycle of either binging and purging or plain starvation.

p. 230 - 31
The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability by Lierre Keith
<http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myt...ability/dp/160
4860804/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281718588&sr=1-1>
(Available at better libraries near you)

> than I do believe it
> is what is in the meat, not the meat itself. We
> are not carrion eaters. That is for vultures and ants.
> If it moves, it is food. If it doesn't, step over it.
> As a society, we eat some pretty discussing meat.
>
> I would also posit that vegetarians tend to eat more
> organic stuff than the general population. (Even if
> they are not really true vegetarians.) They tend
> to be more health conscientious.
>
> >> In my opinion, buy organic and CSA (community supported
> >> >agriculture) whenever possible. And find a friend that hunts.
>
> > Or grow a garden, and buy organic.
>
> 1+
>
> I suck as a farmer. I will try again this year.
>
> >> >
> >> > I have a customer that got a moose the year before and it was
> >> >more than his family could eat. What a treat! An elk the year
> >> >before that. (I hate venison.)
> >> >
> >> >-T
>
> > Sadly, I still, occasionally, get the lust for salami.
>
> The hunter I mentioned has his own salami maker. He made
> up a bunch of moose salami last year. It was *insanely good*.
> No chemicals either. Smokes with with real wood or something,
> I don't remember the exact process. He is thinking of going
> for an elk this year.
>
> Maybe you could look into your own salami maker?
Thanks, but I usually avoid it.

>
> I am babbling, aren't I?
>
> -T

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Next time vote Green Party

On 03/16/2013 03:26 PM, Billy wrote:
> The precipitating incident is, essentially, living in this female-
> hating culture. What begins as simple dieting ends in an addictive
> cycle of either binging and purging or plain starvation.

<snip for brevity>

Wonderful exposition. You spent a lot of time writing
all that up. And, it explains a lot too. Thank you!

Fat bigotry affects both females and males. Employment,
medical, personal relationships, etc.. But, females do
take the brunt of it.

And that kind of non-sense only happened after the television.
We have calendars out here in Nevada filled with pictures
of the pioneer days. All, and I mean ALL, of the females
were fat babes. No one wanted a skinny one as they would
not last the winter. (Fat babes are also prettier, sweeter,
and more feminine. "And" they last through the winter.
Who wants a wife that looks like a 14 year old boy.)

Are you a girl or a guy? ("Billy" could be either.)

-T

Peppermint Patootie wrote:

> In article >, Todd >
> wrote:
>
>> What do you non-insulin T2's eat for breakfast? (I have developed
>> a distaste for ["my"] eggs. Rats!)
>
> Eggs: fried, scrambled, omelets. Sometimes with bacon (although I have
> to share that with the cats. One of my favorite omelets is with
> shredded "mexican" cheese and salsa. YUM!
>
> Accompanied by a big mug of hot tea with a spoon of sugar and a glug of
> milk in the winter and iced tea with sugar and lemon in the summer.
>
> PP

Same here, except my cats don't like bacon. They do like to "wash the dish"
afterwards, before it goes into the real dishwasher :-)

Chopped spinach or leaf parsley on the omelette, a lid of sliced cheese.
In summer, substitute garden greens. Pick'em when I go out to get the
newspaper.

Billy wrote:

> In article >, Todd >
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/11/2013 03:15 PM, Peppermint Patootie wrote:
>> > In article >, Todd >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> What do you non-insulin T2's eat for breakfast? (I have developed
>> >> a distaste for ["my"] eggs. Rats!)
>> >
>> > Eggs: fried, scrambled, omelets. Sometimes with bacon (although I
>> > have
>> > to share that with the cats. One of my favorite omelets is with
>> > shredded "mexican" cheese and salsa. YUM!
>> >
>> > Accompanied by a big mug of hot tea with a spoon of sugar and a glug of
>> > milk in the winter and iced tea with sugar and lemon in the summer.
>> >
>> > PP
>> >
>>
>> Hi PP,
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>> I am going to have to try my hand at omelets again.
>>
>> -T
>
> Get a heavy, non-stick, omelet pan.
>

and use butter, not oil. If I use butter there is no stick problem on the
cast-iron skillet I use. And lifting the skillet is strength exercise ...
I heard the eggs should be left out of the fridge overnight, for the
fluffiest omelette.

In article >, Todd >
wrote:

> On 03/16/2013 03:26 PM, Billy wrote:
> > The precipitating incident is, essentially, living in this female-
> > hating culture. What begins as simple dieting ends in an addictive
> > cycle of either binging and purging or plain starvation.
>
> <snip for brevity>
>
> Wonderful exposition. You spent a lot of time writing
> all that up. And, it explains a lot too. Thank you!
>
> Fat bigotry affects both females and males. Employment,
> medical, personal relationships, etc.. But, females do
> take the brunt of it.
>
> And that kind of non-sense only happened after the television.
> We have calendars out here in Nevada filled with pictures
> of the pioneer days. All, and I mean ALL, of the females
> were fat babes. No one wanted a skinny one as they would
> not last the winter. (Fat babes are also prettier, sweeter,
> and more feminine. "And" they last through the winter.
> Who wants a wife that looks like a 14 year old boy.)
>
> Are you a girl or a guy? ("Billy" could be either.)
>
> -T

My only point is that there is a certain set of concerns when you become
a vegetarian,including B12, tryptophan, or zinc.

Then there is the question of what drives a person to vegetarianism,
health, esthetics, ethics? Whereas a bald, pot-bellied, man may look in
a mirror and say, "not too bad", women who are held to more rigorous
level of perfection, commonly will see a greater divergence from the
norm. We are all affected by media ideal of what it is to be feminine,
masculine, ***, straight, or of indigenous, European, Asian, or African
heritage.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Next time vote Green Party

In article >,
Bjørn Steensrud > wrote:

> Billy wrote:
>
> > In article >, Todd >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/11/2013 03:15 PM, Peppermint Patootie wrote:
> >> > In article >, Todd >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> What do you non-insulin T2's eat for breakfast? (I have developed
> >> >> a distaste for ["my"] eggs. Rats!)
> >> >
> >> > Eggs: fried, scrambled, omelets. Sometimes with bacon (although I
> >> > have
> >> > to share that with the cats. One of my favorite omelets is with
> >> > shredded "mexican" cheese and salsa. YUM!
> >> >
> >> > Accompanied by a big mug of hot tea with a spoon of sugar and a glug of
> >> > milk in the winter and iced tea with sugar and lemon in the summer.
> >> >
> >> > PP
> >> >
> >>
> >> Hi PP,
> >>
> >> Thank you!
> >>
> >> I am going to have to try my hand at omelets again.
> >>
> >> -T
> >
> > Get a heavy, non-stick, omelet pan.
> >
>
> and use butter, not oil. If I use butter there is no stick problem on the
> cast-iron skillet I use. And lifting the skillet is strength exercise ...
> I heard the eggs should be left out of the fridge overnight, for the
> fluffiest omelette.

Lastly, try to find "real" free range (pastured) eggs. The fresher the
eggs, and the butter are the better, said Mme. Annette Poulard.

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Next time vote Green Party

On 03/17/2013 04:01 PM, Billy wrote:
> In article >, Todd >
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/16/2013 03:26 PM, Billy wrote:
>> > The precipitating incident is, essentially, living in this female-
>> > hating culture. What begins as simple dieting ends in an addictive
>> > cycle of either binging and purging or plain starvation.
>>
>> <snip for brevity>
>>
>> Wonderful exposition. You spent a lot of time writing
>> all that up. And, it explains a lot too. Thank you!
>>
>> Fat bigotry affects both females and males. Employment,
>> medical, personal relationships, etc.. But, females do
>> take the brunt of it.
>>
>> And that kind of non-sense only happened after the television.
>> We have calendars out here in Nevada filled with pictures
>> of the pioneer days. All, and I mean ALL, of the females
>> were fat babes. No one wanted a skinny one as they would
>> not last the winter. (Fat babes are also prettier, sweeter,
>> and more feminine. "And" they last through the winter.
>> Who wants a wife that looks like a 14 year old boy.)
>>
>> Are you a girl or a guy? ("Billy" could be either.)
>>
>> -T
>
> My only point is that there is a certain set of concerns when you become
> a vegetarian,including B12, tryptophan, or zinc.

Don't forget Acetyl L-Carnitine and Carnosine. I think it is the height
of arrogance to think our science can tell us everything to supplement
with when you are doing something unnatural. Eventually we will be
able to, but, I would posit, not before we develop long term frame
space travel. (I pity the first victims. The space station may be
solving some of the riddle.)

>
> Then there is the question of what drives a person to vegetarianism,
> health, esthetics, ethics? Whereas a bald, pot-bellied, man may look in
> a mirror and say, "not too bad",

Okay, you got me there, although I have never said "not too bad". It
is more like "OH DUUUUUUUUDE!" :-)

> women who are held to more rigorous
> level of perfection,

No disagreement arguement there. It always rankles when I
see studies were they have a skinny girl apply for a job and
then put the exact same woman in a fat suite and apply for
the same job.

I worked at an aerospace company about 30 years ago where
all the raises and promotions went first to the pretty girls,
second to all the guys, and last to the ugly girls. It
was really irritating as I and other worked our asses off and
got no where. If a pretty girl broke her finger nail, everyone
swooped to her rescue (not me); if an ugly girl lay bleeding
on the floor, everyone (not me) would step over her. And,
fat was the kiss of death.


>> Are you a girl or a guy? ("Billy" could be either.)

You are killing me here!

-T

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/17/2013 04:01 PM, Billy wrote:
>> In article >, Todd >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/16/2013 03:26 PM, Billy wrote:
>>> > The precipitating incident is, essentially, living in this female-
>>> > hating culture. What begins as simple dieting ends in an addictive
>>> > cycle of either binging and purging or plain starvation.
>>>
>>> <snip for brevity>
>>>
>>> Wonderful exposition. You spent a lot of time writing
>>> all that up. And, it explains a lot too. Thank you!
>>>
>>> Fat bigotry affects both females and males. Employment,
>>> medical, personal relationships, etc.. But, females do
>>> take the brunt of it.
>>>
>>> And that kind of non-sense only happened after the television.
>>> We have calendars out here in Nevada filled with pictures
>>> of the pioneer days. All, and I mean ALL, of the females
>>> were fat babes. No one wanted a skinny one as they would
>>> not last the winter. (Fat babes are also prettier, sweeter,
>>> and more feminine. "And" they last through the winter.
>>> Who wants a wife that looks like a 14 year old boy.)
>>>
>>> Are you a girl or a guy? ("Billy" could be either.)
>>>
>>> -T
>>
>> My only point is that there is a certain set of concerns when you become
>> a vegetarian,including B12, tryptophan, or zinc.
>
> Don't forget Acetyl L-Carnitine and Carnosine. I think it is the height
> of arrogance to think our science can tell us everything to supplement
> with when you are doing something unnatural. Eventually we will be
> able to, but, I would posit, not before we develop long term frame
> space travel. (I pity the first victims. The space station may be
> solving some of the riddle.)

What's unnatural? Are you calling vegetarianism unnatural?
>
>>
>> Then there is the question of what drives a person to vegetarianism,
>> health, esthetics, ethics? Whereas a bald, pot-bellied, man may look in
>> a mirror and say, "not too bad",
>
> Okay, you got me there, although I have never said "not too bad". It
> is more like "OH DUUUUUUUUDE!" :-)
>
>> women who are held to more rigorous
>> level of perfection,
>
> No disagreement arguement there. It always rankles when I
> see studies were they have a skinny girl apply for a job and
> then put the exact same woman in a fat suite and apply for
> the same job.
>
What's a fat suite?

> I worked at an aerospace company about 30 years ago where
> all the raises and promotions went first to the pretty girls,
> second to all the guys, and last to the ugly girls. It
> was really irritating as I and other worked our asses off and
> got no where. If a pretty girl broke her finger nail, everyone
> swooped to her rescue (not me); if an ugly girl lay bleeding
> on the floor, everyone (not me) would step over her. And,
> fat was the kiss of death.

Guess you worked in the wrong industry then.

> >> Are you a girl or a guy? ("Billy" could be either.)
>
> You are killing me here!
>
> -T
>
>
>

On 03/17/2013 09:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
> What's unnatural? Are you calling vegetarianism unnatural?

Yes. Our eyes on the front of our heads, not the sides.
We can not eat grass. We are born virtually blind and
helpless. We can not run 30 minutes after being born.
We do not have two stomaches. Yada, Yada, Yada.

We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
then we are just like bears.

By the way, lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causes neuropathy.
See what I am getting at?

Vegetarianism is unnatural. We are not cows or horses.

> What's a fat suite?

It is a rubber suite that makes you look fat. Pretty
realistic looking too. Lots of bigotry against fat people
out there.

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/17/2013 09:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>> What's unnatural? Are you calling vegetarianism unnatural?
>
> Yes. Our eyes on the front of our heads, not the sides.
> We can not eat grass. We are born virtually blind and
> helpless. We can not run 30 minutes after being born.
> We do not have two stomaches. Yada, Yada, Yada.

We can eat grass. One of my customers bought bags of grass seed on a
regular basis to be used for sprouts. He ate them. Granted, most people
don't eat grass but we could. And no, we don't have two stomachs. Are you
comparing us to cows? Because cows can eat corn too. Are you saying that
we can't eat corn? These days cows eat all sorts of things. Well, some
cows anyway.
>
> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
> then we are just like bears.

No we're not. Just because we *can* eat things doesn't mean that we should.
>
> By the way, lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causes neuropathy.
> See what I am getting at?
>
Nope. Except that you seem very misguided on a lot of things. Cite for
lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causing neuropathy?

> Vegetarianism is unnatural. We are not cows or horses.

It's not unnatural for me or all of the other vegetarians and vegans on the
face of this earth.
>
>> What's a fat suite?
>
> It is a rubber suite that makes you look fat. Pretty
> realistic looking too. Lots of bigotry against fat people
> out there.

A rubber suite? Do you even know what a suite is?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suite?s=t&path=/

I'm pretty sure that you meant suit.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suit?s=t

Those fat suits that I have seen make the person look grossly obese. I have
never been grossly obese. I have been fat. I am fat. I have been thin. I
have been very thin. Some of the most cruel remarks that people made to and
about me came about when I was thin. As a fat person, I have only ever had
one person make comments about my weight. That person makes nasty comments
to and about any person who is overweight. He himself is very overweight.
More overweight than I am. This person has a lot of other issues and isn't
the most socially adept person. So his comments to me are meaningless.

Yes, I have seen those shows on TV and read magazine articles and such about
how the people in the fat suits were mistreated. But it could also be that
they were carrying themselves differently than normal. I just don't know.
I see plenty of fat people around here. People who are fatter than me.
I've yet to hear anyone make a disparaging comment about them.

My dad was and is fat. He had a very good career. Went far up in the
company. His weight didn't affect that at all.

Billy wrote:

> In article >,
> Bj�rn Steensrud > wrote:
>
>> Billy wrote:
>>
>> > In article >, Todd >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 03/11/2013 03:15 PM, Peppermint Patootie wrote:
>> >> > In article >, Todd >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> What do you non-insulin T2's eat for breakfast? (I have developed
>> >> >> a distaste for ["my"] eggs. Rats!)
>> >> >
>> >> > Eggs: fried, scrambled, omelets. Sometimes with bacon (although I
>> >> > have
>> >> > to share that with the cats. One of my favorite omelets is with
>> >> > shredded "mexican" cheese and salsa. YUM!
>> >> >
>> >> > Accompanied by a big mug of hot tea with a spoon of sugar and a glug
>> >> > of milk in the winter and iced tea with sugar and lemon in the
>> >> > summer.
>> >> >
>> >> > PP
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Hi PP,
>> >>
>> >> Thank you!
>> >>
>> >> I am going to have to try my hand at omelets again.
>> >>
>> >> -T
>> >
>> > Get a heavy, non-stick, omelet pan.
>> >
>>
>> and use butter, not oil. If I use butter there is no stick problem on the
>> cast-iron skillet I use. And lifting the skillet is strength exercise ...
>> I heard the eggs should be left out of the fridge overnight, for the
>> fluffiest omelette.
>
> Lastly, try to find "real" free range (pastured) eggs. The fresher the
> eggs, and the butter are the better, said Mme. Annette Poulard.
>

I always do. They are marked "ecological" here, the "free range" marking
just means that the hens are shut in a large barn instead of individual
cages. "Eco" means among other factors that weather permitting they can go
outside. Price is just a bit higher but quite affordable.

In article >, Todd >
wrote:

> In my opinion, buy organic and CSA (community supported
> agriculture) whenever possible. And find a friend that hunts.
>
> I have a customer that got a moose the year before and it was
> more than his family could eat. What a treat! An elk the year
> before that. (I hate venison.)

My version of this is to have an organic vegetable garden and to buy
organic vegetables, free-range organic eggs, and free-range grass fed
meat (domestic and wild) as much as possible. I also cook a lot, rarely
if ever buy processed food, and don't eat out much.

PP
--
"What you fail to understand is that criticising established authority by means
of argument and evidence is a crucial aspect of how science works."
- Chris Malcolm

On 03/18/2013 09:52 AM, Peppermint Patootie wrote:
> In article >, Todd >
> wrote:
>
>> In my opinion, buy organic and CSA (community supported
>> agriculture) whenever possible. And find a friend that hunts.
>>
>> I have a customer that got a moose the year before and it was
>> more than his family could eat. What a treat! An elk the year
>> before that. (I hate venison.)
>
> My version of this is to have an organic vegetable garden and to buy
> organic vegetables, free-range organic eggs, and free-range grass fed
> meat (domestic and wild) as much as possible. I also cook a lot, rarely
> if ever buy processed food, and don't eat out much.
>
> PP
>

Hi Peppermint,

100% agree.

Processed food will be the death of us all. Not real food,
but food like substances.

I stink as a farmer. But, that does not stop me from trying.
I was turning my soil over to kill the encroaching grass
in my organic garden last week. The soil looked and felt
better than I remember. So things are looking up.

I am so looking forward to fresh picked zucchini! Winter
is driving me nuts.

-T

On 03/18/2013 12:21 AM, Julie Bove wrote:
> "Todd" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 03/17/2013 09:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>>> What's unnatural? Are you calling vegetarianism unnatural?
>>
>> Yes. Our eyes on the front of our heads, not the sides.
>> We can not eat grass. We are born virtually blind and
>> helpless. We can not run 30 minutes after being born.
>> We do not have two stomaches. Yada, Yada, Yada.

> We can eat grass.

If you mean can we swallow grass, then yes. That is not what I meant.
We can not break down the cellulose like a real herbivore. We
need two stomaches for that.

> One of my customers bought bags of grass seed on a
> regular basis to be used for sprouts. He ate them.

Sprouts and full grown grass are two different things. We can
eat (digest) sprouts. They haven't developed the cellulose
to the point where they are just bran to us.

> Granted, most people
> don't eat grass but we could.

Yes we could swallow it. It is called "bran" to an omnivore.
We can't digest it.

> And no, we don't have two stomachs. Are you
> comparing us to cows?

Cow have two stomachs, so they can digest cellulose. We
can't. You missed the point.

> Because cows can eat corn too.

True. And it is really bad for them. It gives them ulcers [1]
[2] [3]. It is unnatural to feed them corn. That is why feed
lots have to race to fatten up cows before they kill them.
We are not carrion eaters.

> Are you saying that
> we can't eat corn?

We can. We shouldn't. It is like eating pure sugar. I
believed that stupid food pyramid and their healthy
carbohydrates monkey shine. I truly believe it is what
burned out my beta cells. I know we disagree on this subject.

> These days cows eat all sorts of things. Well, some
> cows anyway.

They use to feed dead cows back to cows. Gross. Cows are
not cannibals. Gave them Mad Cow disease. Hmmm.
Really thought that one out really well, didn't they.

>>
>> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
>> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
>> then we are just like bears.
>
> No we're not.

Both humans and bears are omnivores. Neither one of us
are herbivores as neither one of us can digest grass
(cellulose). I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.

Their are four basic type of mammals:
herbivores
omnivores
carnivores
carrion eaters

We and bears are omnivores. Bears are also carrion eaters.
Unless you think hot dogs are carrion, then ...


> Just because we *can* eat things doesn't mean that we should.

100% agree.

>>
>> By the way, lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causes neuropathy.
>> See what I am getting at?
>>
> Nope. Except that you seem very misguided on a lot of things.

Play nice with the other children in the sand box.

> Cite for
> lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causing neuropathy?

Absolutely! [4] [5] Could this have been a contributing
factor to your neuropathy? Vegetarianism causes all kinds
of nerve damage if you are not careful to supplement
and/or cheat on your diet (or eat figs). [6] [7] [8] [9]

>
>> Vegetarianism is unnatural. We are not cows or horses.
>
> It's not unnatural for me or all of the other vegetarians and vegans on the
> face of this earth.

Oh yes, it is unnatural. So is space travel. It is up to the beholder
to judge whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. I am not
trying to offend you.

If you are a strict, true vegetarian, meaning you do not consume
any animal nutrition (insects or meat [and fish is meat]) or use
science to synthesize what you are missing, you will get very ill and
risk death. I would posit anything that hurts someone is a bad thing.

Some unnatural things are not bad things, like taking metformin.

We can survive as pure carnivores, as do the Inuits [11], but we can
not survive as pure vegetarians.

That being said, very few vegetarians really are. They are just
picky eaters. They eats bugs (figs [12] and bugs in their grains),
milk, eggs, fish, chicken and on and so forth.

"Some" vegetarians do it to condescend. Makes them feel good about
themselves without actually making the effort of being good people.
Most vegetarians I know are doing it for their health -- to each his
own. Hope they supplement and/or cheat on their diet. A lot of
the meat we consume (not me) is pretty unhealthy. Not because
meat is unhealthy, it is not, but because of what is in the meat
and the unhealthy conditions it is raised under.

>>
>>> What's a fat suite?
>>
>> It is a rubber suite that makes you look fat. Pretty
>> realistic looking too. Lots of bigotry against fat people
>> out there.

> Those fat suits that I have seen make the person look grossly obese. I have
> never been grossly obese. I have been fat. I am fat. I have been thin. I
> have been very thin. Some of the most cruel remarks that people made to and
> about me came about when I was thin.

Back before the television, I have seen adds for weight gain products
that made big fun of skinny girls [13]. They implied a skinny girl
could not get married, among other things.

> As a fat person, I have only ever had
> one person make comments about my weight. That person makes nasty comments
> to and about any person who is overweight. He himself is very overweight.
> More overweight than I am. This person has a lot of other issues and isn't
> the most socially adept person. So his comments to me are meaningless.

The proper response to folks like that is "Bite Me!" Ignore people
like that.

>
> Yes, I have seen those shows on TV and read magazine articles and such about
> how the people in the fat suits were mistreated. But it could also be that
> they were carrying themselves differently than normal. I just don't know.

Trust me, is because they are fat.

> I see plenty of fat people around here. People who are fatter than me.
> I've yet to hear anyone make a disparaging comment about them.

Keep those friends!

>
> My dad was and is fat. He had a very good career. Went far up in the
> company. His weight didn't affect that at all.

There is hope. Females suffer from fat bigotry far worse than
men. And since dieting makes you fat [10], guess what
happens to women when they give into to social pressure
and diet? (Should that have been a question mark or a period?)

Men suffer from being "success objects".

Our goal in society should be to judge people based on the
strength of their character. Not what they look like.

-T


1) http://vet.sagepub.com/content/18/2/143.full.pdf

2) http://www.johnrobbins.info/blog/grass-fed-beef/

3)
http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf

4)
http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.co...n=2&article=77

5) https://www.google.com/Acetyl+L-Carnitine+neuropathy

6) http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09324.html

7) http://www.medicinenet.com/vegetaria...diet/page2.htm

8) http://www.drnickcampos.com/health-n...deficiency.htm

9)
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-veganism.aspx

10) http://www.alternet.org/story/91890/..._makes_you_fat

11)
http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-p...se-and-cancer/

12) http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoo...s/fig-wasp.htm

13) http://www.retronaut.com/2011/11/vin...ight-gain-ads/

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/18/2013 12:21 AM, Julie Bove wrote:
>> "Todd" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 03/17/2013 09:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>>>> What's unnatural? Are you calling vegetarianism unnatural?
>>>
>>> Yes. Our eyes on the front of our heads, not the sides.
>>> We can not eat grass. We are born virtually blind and
>>> helpless. We can not run 30 minutes after being born.
>>> We do not have two stomaches. Yada, Yada, Yada.
>
>> We can eat grass.
>
> If you mean can we swallow grass, then yes. That is not what I meant.
> We can not break down the cellulose like a real herbivore. We
> need two stomaches for that.
>
>> One of my customers bought bags of grass seed on a
>> regular basis to be used for sprouts. He ate them.
>
> Sprouts and full grown grass are two different things. We can
> eat (digest) sprouts. They haven't developed the cellulose
> to the point where they are just bran to us.
>
>> Granted, most people
>> don't eat grass but we could.
>
> Yes we could swallow it. It is called "bran" to an omnivore.
> We can't digest it.
>
>> And no, we don't have two stomachs. Are you
>> comparing us to cows?
>
> Cow have two stomachs, so they can digest cellulose. We
> can't. You missed the point.

You do know that cellulose is added to a lot of food. Right? And what does
that have to do with vegetarianism? It doesn't!

>> Because cows can eat corn too.
>
> True. And it is really bad for them. It gives them ulcers [1]
> [2] [3]. It is unnatural to feed them corn. That is why feed
> lots have to race to fatten up cows before they kill them.
> We are not carrion eaters.

Cite that corn gives them ulcers? And we certainly can be carion eaters.
Ever watch Honey
Boo Boo? Seen those foreign films where the natives find a dead animal and
butcher it?
>
>> Are you saying that
>> we can't eat corn?
>
> We can. We shouldn't. It is like eating pure sugar. I
> believed that stupid food pyramid and their healthy
> carbohydrates monkey shine. I truly believe it is what
> burned out my beta cells. I know we disagree on this subject.

No. It's not like pure sugar at all. And yes, we very much do disagree.
>
>> These days cows eat all sorts of things. Well, some
>> cows anyway.
>
> They use to feed dead cows back to cows. Gross. Cows are
> not cannibals. Gave them Mad Cow disease. Hmmm.
> Really thought that one out really well, didn't they.

Oh really? Cite for that, then! You make all these off the wall claims and
just expect us to belive what you say!

>>> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
>>> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
>>> then we are just like bears.
>>
>> No we're not.
>
> Both humans and bears are omnivores. Neither one of us
> are herbivores as neither one of us can digest grass
> (cellulose). I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.

Cite that the definition of an herbivore means digesting grass?
>
> Their are four basic type of mammals:
> herbivores
> omnivores
> carnivores
> carrion eaters
>
> We and bears are omnivores. Bears are also carrion eaters.
> Unless you think hot dogs are carrion, then ...

I know what carion is and some humans do in fact eat it.

>> Just because we *can* eat things doesn't mean that we should.
>
> 100% agree.
>
>>>
>>> By the way, lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causes neuropathy.
>>> See what I am getting at?
>>>
>> Nope. Except that you seem very misguided on a lot of things.
>
> Play nice with the other children in the sand box.

Well, you're not really playing nice. Making all kinds of outlandish claims
as though they were fact.
>
>> Cite for
>> lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causing neuropathy?
>
> Absolutely! [4] [5] Could this have been a contributing
> factor to your neuropathy? Vegetarianism causes all kinds
> of nerve damage if you are not careful to supplement
> and/or cheat on your diet (or eat figs). [6] [7] [8] [9]

That's not a cite. You put a quote from some place and didn't even
attribute to where it came from. I was a vegetarian for many years and had
no nerve damage. I know plenty of vegetarians now with no nerve damage.
>
>>
>>> Vegetarianism is unnatural. We are not cows or horses.
>>
>> It's not unnatural for me or all of the other vegetarians and vegans on
>> the
>> face of this earth.
>
> Oh yes, it is unnatural. So is space travel. It is up to the beholder
> to judge whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. I am not
> trying to offend you.

Now you say that space travel is unnatural? This is really getting
laughable. And you really are offending my sensibilities with all of this
clap trap.
>
> If you are a strict, true vegetarian, meaning you do not consume
> any animal nutrition (insects or meat [and fish is meat]) or use
> science to synthesize what you are missing, you will get very ill and risk
> death. I would posit anything that hurts someone is a bad thing.

Totally untrue! Just freaking totally!
>
> Some unnatural things are not bad things, like taking metformin.
>
> We can survive as pure carnivores, as do the Inuits [11], but we can
> not survive as pure vegetarians.

We could not survive like the Intuits. Few people in this country would eat
what they ate. And it is not available to us.
>
> That being said, very few vegetarians really are. They are just
> picky eaters. They eats bugs (figs [12] and bugs in their grains),
> milk, eggs, fish, chicken and on and so forth.

Nonsenese! Please, please quit your lying! Please! Vegetarians can eat
dairy and eggs. Vegans do not. Vegans do not use any animal products. Not
even leather. Vegetarians can use leather. Not all do.
>
> "Some" vegetarians do it to condescend. Makes them feel good about
> themselves without actually making the effort of being good people.
> Most vegetarians I know are doing it for their health -- to each his own.
> Hope they supplement and/or cheat on their diet. A lot of
> the meat we consume (not me) is pretty unhealthy. Not because
> meat is unhealthy, it is not, but because of what is in the meat
> and the unhealthy conditions it is raised under.

You are really insulting a lot of people by saying that.

>>>> What's a fat suite?
>>>
>>> It is a rubber suite that makes you look fat. Pretty
>>> realistic looking too. Lots of bigotry against fat people
>>> out there.
>
>> Those fat suits that I have seen make the person look grossly obese. I
>> have
>> never been grossly obese. I have been fat. I am fat. I have been thin.
>> I
>> have been very thin. Some of the most cruel remarks that people made to
>> and
>> about me came about when I was thin.
>
> Back before the television, I have seen adds for weight gain products
> that made big fun of skinny girls [13]. They implied a skinny girl
> could not get married, among other things.

Uh huh.
>
>> As a fat person, I have only ever had
>> one person make comments about my weight. That person makes nasty
>> comments
>> to and about any person who is overweight. He himself is very
>> overweight.
>> More overweight than I am. This person has a lot of other issues and
>> isn't
>> the most socially adept person. So his comments to me are meaningless.
>
> The proper response to folks like that is "Bite Me!" Ignore people
> like that.

Uh huh.
>
>>
>> Yes, I have seen those shows on TV and read magazine articles and such
>> about
>> how the people in the fat suits were mistreated. But it could also be
>> that
>> they were carrying themselves differently than normal. I just don't
>> know.
>
> Trust me, is because they are fat.

No. I really don't think so.
>
>> I see plenty of fat people around here. People who are fatter than me.
>> I've yet to hear anyone make a disparaging comment about them.
>
> Keep those friends!

>> My dad was and is fat. He had a very good career. Went far up in the
>> company. His weight didn't affect that at all.
>
> There is hope. Females suffer from fat bigotry far worse than
> men. And since dieting makes you fat [10], guess what
> happens to women when they give into to social pressure
> and diet? (Should that have been a question mark or a period?)

Oh good grief!
>
> Men suffer from being "success objects".

Really good grief! Now you are insulting everyone and you yourself are
coming across as a bigot.
>
> Our goal in society should be to judge people based on the
> strength of their character. Not what they look like.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh... How about we don't judge them at all? Of course judging
is human nature too.


> 1) http://vet.sagepub.com/content/18/2/143.full.pdf

Something from 1981?
>
> 2) http://www.johnrobbins.info/blog/grass-fed-beef/

A blog?
>
> 3)
> http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf
>
> 4)
> http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.co...n=2&article=77

Something from 2004?
>
> 5) https://www.google.com/Acetyl+L-Carnitine+neuropathy

A Google search? Did that myself. No cite there said that lack of it
caused neuropathy. One cite said that it might.
>
> 6)
> http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf
>
2004?

> 7) http://www.medicinenet.com/vegetaria...diet/page2.htm

Damn, Skippy! Your own cite proved you wrong there!
>
> 8) http://www.drnickcampos.com/health-n...deficiency.htm
>
We weren't talking about vitamin B deficiencies. And most vegans do know to
eat nutritional yeast to prevent that.
> 9)
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-veganism.aspx

A cite from a quack? Not even going to read that.
>
> 10) http://www.alternet.org/story/91890/..._makes_you_fat

2008.
>
> 11)
> http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-p...se-and-cancer/

Not interested in that.
>
> 12)
> http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoo...s/fig-wasp.htm

Okay...
>
> 13) http://www.retronaut.com/2011/11/vin...ight-gain-ads/

Okay...

You threw up a bunch of crap links, wasting my time. And not one thing
proves what you said about lack of L Carnitine causing neuropathy.

Julie Bove > wrote:

: "Todd" > wrote in message
: ...
: > On 03/18/2013 12:21 AM, Julie Bove wrote:
: >> "Todd" > wrote in message
: >> ...
: >>> On 03/17/2013 09:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
: >>>> What's unnatural? Are you calling vegetarianism unnatural?
: >>>
: >>> Yes. Our eyes on the front of our heads, not the sides.
: >>> We can not eat grass. We are born virtually blind and
: >>> helpless. We can not run 30 minutes after being born.
: >>> We do not have two stomaches. Yada, Yada, Yada.
: >
: >> We can eat grass.
: >
: > If you mean can we swallow grass, then yes. That is not what I meant.
: > We can not break down the cellulose like a real herbivore. We
: > need two stomaches for that.
: >
: >> One of my customers bought bags of grass seed on a
: >> regular basis to be used for sprouts. He ate them.
: >
: > Sprouts and full grown grass are two different things. We can
: > eat (digest) sprouts. They haven't developed the cellulose
: > to the point where they are just bran to us.
: >
: >> Granted, most people
: >> don't eat grass but we could.
: >
: > Yes we could swallow it. It is called "bran" to an omnivore.
: > We can't digest it.
: >
: >> And no, we don't have two stomachs. Are you
: >> comparing us to cows?
: >
: > Cow have two stomachs, so they can digest cellulose. We
: > can't. You missed the point.

: You do know that cellulose is added to a lot of food. Right? And what does
: that have to do with vegetarianism? It doesn't!

: >> Because cows can eat corn too.
: >
: > True. And it is really bad for them. It gives them ulcers [1]
: > [2] [3]. It is unnatural to feed them corn. That is why feed
: > lots have to race to fatten up cows before they kill them.
: > We are not carrion eaters.

: Cite that corn gives them ulcers? And we certainly can be carion eaters.
: Ever watch Honey
: Boo Boo? Seen those foreign films where the natives find a dead animal and
: butcher it?
: >
: >> Are you saying that
: >> we can't eat corn?
: >
: > We can. We shouldn't. It is like eating pure sugar. I
: > believed that stupid food pyramid and their healthy
: > carbohydrates monkey shine. I truly believe it is what
: > burned out my beta cells. I know we disagree on this subject.

: No. It's not like pure sugar at all. And yes, we very much do disagree.
: >
: >> These days cows eat all sorts of things. Well, some
: >> cows anyway.
: >
: > They use to feed dead cows back to cows. Gross. Cows are
: > not cannibals. Gave them Mad Cow disease. Hmmm.
: > Really thought that one out really well, didn't they.

: Oh really? Cite for that, then! You make all these off the wall claims and
: just expect us to belive what you say!

: >>> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
: >>> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
: >>> then we are just like bears.
: >>
: >> No we're not.
: >
: > Both humans and bears are omnivores. Neither one of us
: > are herbivores as neither one of us can digest grass
: > (cellulose). I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.

: Cite that the definition of an herbivore means digesting grass?
: >
: > Their are four basic type of mammals:
: > herbivores
: > omnivores
: > carnivores
: > carrion eaters
: >
: > We and bears are omnivores. Bears are also carrion eaters.
: > Unless you think hot dogs are carrion, then ...

: I know what carion is and some humans do in fact eat it.

: >> Just because we *can* eat things doesn't mean that we should.
: >
: > 100% agree.
: >
: >>>
: >>> By the way, lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causes neuropathy.
: >>> See what I am getting at?
: >>>
: >> Nope. Except that you seem very misguided on a lot of things.
: >
: > Play nice with the other children in the sand box.

: Well, you're not really playing nice. Making all kinds of outlandish claims
: as though they were fact.
: >
: >> Cite for
: >> lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causing neuropathy?
: >
: > Absolutely! [4] [5] Could this have been a contributing
: > factor to your neuropathy? Vegetarianism causes all kinds
: > of nerve damage if you are not careful to supplement
: > and/or cheat on your diet (or eat figs). [6] [7] [8] [9]

: That's not a cite. You put a quote from some place and didn't even
: attribute to where it came from. I was a vegetarian for many years and had
: no nerve damage. I know plenty of vegetarians now with no nerve damage.
: >
: >>
: >>> Vegetarianism is unnatural. We are not cows or horses.
: >>
: >> It's not unnatural for me or all of the other vegetarians and vegans on
: >> the
: >> face of this earth.
: >
: > Oh yes, it is unnatural. So is space travel. It is up to the beholder
: > to judge whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. I am not
: > trying to offend you.

: Now you say that space travel is unnatural? This is really getting
: laughable. And you really are offending my sensibilities with all of this
: clap trap.
: >
: > If you are a strict, true vegetarian, meaning you do not consume
: > any animal nutrition (insects or meat [and fish is meat]) or use
: > science to synthesize what you are missing, you will get very ill and risk
: > death. I would posit anything that hurts someone is a bad thing.

: Totally untrue! Just freaking totally!
: >
: > Some unnatural things are not bad things, like taking metformin.
: >
: > We can survive as pure carnivores, as do the Inuits [11], but we can
: > not survive as pure vegetarians.

: We could not survive like the Intuits. Few people in this country would eat
: what they ate. And it is not available to us.
: >
: > That being said, very few vegetarians really are. They are just
: > picky eaters. They eats bugs (figs [12] and bugs in their grains),
: > milk, eggs, fish, chicken and on and so forth.

: Nonsenese! Please, please quit your lying! Please! Vegetarians can eat
: dairy and eggs. Vegans do not. Vegans do not use any animal products. Not
: even leather. Vegetarians can use leather. Not all do.
: >
: > "Some" vegetarians do it to condescend. Makes them feel good about
: > themselves without actually making the effort of being good people.
: > Most vegetarians I know are doing it for their health -- to each his own.
: > Hope they supplement and/or cheat on their diet. A lot of
: > the meat we consume (not me) is pretty unhealthy. Not because
: > meat is unhealthy, it is not, but because of what is in the meat
: > and the unhealthy conditions it is raised under.

: You are really insulting a lot of people by saying that.

: >>>> What's a fat suite?
: >>>
: >>> It is a rubber suite that makes you look fat. Pretty
: >>> realistic looking too. Lots of bigotry against fat people
: >>> out there.
: >
: >> Those fat suits that I have seen make the person look grossly obese. I
: >> have
: >> never been grossly obese. I have been fat. I am fat. I have been thin.
: >> I
: >> have been very thin. Some of the most cruel remarks that people made to
: >> and
: >> about me came about when I was thin.
: >
: > Back before the television, I have seen adds for weight gain products
: > that made big fun of skinny girls [13]. They implied a skinny girl
: > could not get married, among other things.

: Uh huh.
: >
: >> As a fat person, I have only ever had
: >> one person make comments about my weight. That person makes nasty
: >> comments
: >> to and about any person who is overweight. He himself is very
: >> overweight.
: >> More overweight than I am. This person has a lot of other issues and
: >> isn't
: >> the most socially adept person. So his comments to me are meaningless.
: >
: > The proper response to folks like that is "Bite Me!" Ignore people
: > like that.

: Uh huh.
: >
: >>
: >> Yes, I have seen those shows on TV and read magazine articles and such
: >> about
: >> how the people in the fat suits were mistreated. But it could also be
: >> that
: >> they were carrying themselves differently than normal. I just don't
: >> know.
: >
: > Trust me, is because they are fat.

: No. I really don't think so.
: >
: >> I see plenty of fat people around here. People who are fatter than me.
: >> I've yet to hear anyone make a disparaging comment about them.
: >
: > Keep those friends!

: >> My dad was and is fat. He had a very good career. Went far up in the
: >> company. His weight didn't affect that at all.
: >
: > There is hope. Females suffer from fat bigotry far worse than
: > men. And since dieting makes you fat [10], guess what
: > happens to women when they give into to social pressure
: > and diet? (Should that have been a question mark or a period?)

: Oh good grief!
: >
: > Men suffer from being "success objects".

: Really good grief! Now you are insulting everyone and you yourself are
: coming across as a bigot.
: >
: > Our goal in society should be to judge people based on the
: > strength of their character. Not what they look like.

: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh... How about we don't judge them at all? Of course judging
: is human nature too.


: > 1) http://vet.sagepub.com/content/18/2/143.full.pdf

: Something from 1981?
: >
: > 2) http://www.johnrobbins.info/blog/grass-fed-beef/

: A blog?
: >
: > 3)
: > http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf
: >
: > 4)
: > http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.co...n=2&article=77

: Something from 2004?
: >
: > 5) https://www.google.com/Acetyl+L-Carnitine+neuropathy

: A Google search? Did that myself. No cite there said that lack of it
: caused neuropathy. One cite said that it might.
: >
: > 6)
: > http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf
: >
: 2004?

: > 7) http://www.medicinenet.com/vegetaria...diet/page2.htm

: Damn, Skippy! Your own cite proved you wrong there!
: >
: > 8) http://www.drnickcampos.com/health-n...deficiency.htm
: >
: We weren't talking about vitamin B deficiencies. And most vegans do know to
: eat nutritional yeast to prevent that.
: > 9)
: > http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-veganism.aspx

: A cite from a quack? Not even going to read that.
: >
: > 10) http://www.alternet.org/story/91890/..._makes_you_fat

: 2008.
: >
: > 11)
: > http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-p...se-and-cancer/

: Not interested in that.
: >
: > 12)
: > http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoo...s/fig-wasp.htm

: Okay...
: >
: > 13) http://www.retronaut.com/2011/11/vin...ight-gain-ads/

: Okay...

: You threw up a bunch of crap links, wasting my time. And not one thing
: proves what you said about lack of L Carnitine causing neuropathy.

On 03/18/2013 02:35 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
> "Todd" > wrote in message

>> Cow have two stomachs, so they can digest cellulose. We
>> can't. You missed the point.
>
> You do know that cellulose is added to a lot of food. Right? And what does
> that have to do with vegetarianism? It doesn't!

"cellulose" is called "bran" in humans. They derive no nutritious
from. Grass is cellulose.

>
>>> Because cows can eat corn too.
>>
>> True. And it is really bad for them. It gives them ulcers [1]
>> [2] [3]. It is unnatural to feed them corn. That is why feed
>> lots have to race to fatten up cows before they kill them.
>> We are not carrion eaters.
>
> Cite that corn gives them ulcers?

I already did. That was the "[2] [3]" in my sentence.

> And we certainly can be carion eaters.
> Ever watch Honey Boo Boo?

No

> Seen those foreign films where the natives find a dead animal and
> butcher it?

Oh that can't be good. I have heard of American Indians that
will leave a dead diseased animal to rot.

>>
>>> Are you saying that
>>> we can't eat corn?
>>
>> We can. We shouldn't. It is like eating pure sugar. I
>> believed that stupid food pyramid and their healthy
>> carbohydrates monkey shine. I truly believe it is what
>> burned out my beta cells. I know we disagree on this subject.
>
> No. It's not like pure sugar at all. And yes, we very much do disagree.

Corn:

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/carbcounts/a/corn.htm

Glycemic Index for Corn Glycemic index studies of
corn report averages of anywhere from 37 to 62.
An average GI of 54 is commonly used.

Table sugar:

http://www.sugar-and-sweetener-guide...weeteners.html

Sucrose Sugar 65



>>
>>> These days cows eat all sorts of things. Well, some
>>> cows anyway.
>>
>> They use to feed dead cows back to cows. Gross. Cows are
>> not cannibals. Gave them Mad Cow disease. Hmmm.
>> Really thought that one out really well, didn't they.
>
> Oh really? Cite for that, then! You make all these off the wall claims and
> just expect us to belive what you say!

Not off the wall at all. I had 13 cites in the last letter
I wrote you. Missed this one. Sorry.

http://praisemoves.com/2012/04/cattl...d-cow-disease/


>
>>>> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
>>>> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
>>>> then we are just like bears.
>>>
>>> No we're not.
>>
>> Both humans and bears are omnivores. Neither one of us
>> are herbivores as neither one of us can digest grass
>> (cellulose). I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.
>
> Cite that the definition of an herbivore means digesting grass?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore

Sorry I did not cite this as I thought you took biology in
college.


>>
>> Their are four basic type of mammals:
>> herbivores
>> omnivores
>> carnivores
>> carrion eaters
>>
>> We and bears are omnivores. Bears are also carrion eaters.
>> Unless you think hot dogs are carrion, then ...
>
> I know what carion is and some humans do in fact eat it.

Hot Dogs!

Eating carrion is really not a good idea.

>
>>> Just because we *can* eat things doesn't mean that we should.
>>
>> 100% agree.
>>
>>>>
>>>> By the way, lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causes neuropathy.
>>>> See what I am getting at?
>>>>
>>> Nope. Except that you seem very misguided on a lot of things.
>>
>> Play nice with the other children in the sand box.
>
> Well, you're not really playing nice. Making all kinds of outlandish claims
> as though they were fact.
>>
>>> Cite for
>>> lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causing neuropathy?
>>
>> Absolutely! [4] [5] Could this have been a contributing
>> factor to your neuropathy? Vegetarianism causes all kinds
>> of nerve damage if you are not careful to supplement
>> and/or cheat on your diet (or eat figs). [6] [7] [8] [9]
>
> That's not a cite. You put a quote from some place and didn't even
> attribute to where it came from. I was a vegetarian for many years and had
> no nerve damage. I know plenty of vegetarians now with no nerve damage.

Then you got your animal nutrition from somewhere. Did you suppliment
or eat dairy, fish, etc.?

>>
>>>
>>>> Vegetarianism is unnatural. We are not cows or horses.
>>>
>>> It's not unnatural for me or all of the other vegetarians and vegans on
>>> the
>>> face of this earth.
>>
>> Oh yes, it is unnatural. So is space travel. It is up to the beholder
>> to judge whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. I am not
>> trying to offend you.
>
> Now you say that space travel is unnatural? This is really getting
> laughable. And you really are offending my sensibilities with all of this
> clap trap.
>>
>> If you are a strict, true vegetarian, meaning you do not consume
>> any animal nutrition (insects or meat [and fish is meat]) or use
>> science to synthesize what you are missing, you will get very ill and risk
>> death. I would posit anything that hurts someone is a bad thing.
>
> Totally untrue! Just freaking totally!

I gave you lots of cites to nerve damage. Did you find them
to be lying?


>>
>> Some unnatural things are not bad things, like taking metformin.
>>
>> We can survive as pure carnivores, as do the Inuits [11], but we can
>> not survive as pure vegetarians.
>
> We could not survive like the Intuits. Few people in this country would eat
> what they ate. And it is not available to us.
>>
>> That being said, very few vegetarians really are. They are just
>> picky eaters. They eats bugs (figs [12] and bugs in their grains),
>> milk, eggs, fish, chicken and on and so forth.
>
> Nonsenese! Please, please quit your lying! Please! Vegetarians can eat
> dairy and eggs. Vegans do not. Vegans do not use any animal products. Not
> even leather. Vegetarians can use leather. Not all do

First, play nice with the other kids in the sandbox.

Second. Vegan is a particular type of vegetarian. I am
using the term vegetarian as the master set of different
types of vegetarians. Some Vegi's eat the things you
cite and other do not. I was very clear what I was
talking about. Stop reading offense were their is none.
I am your friend, not your enemy.

..
>>
>> "Some" vegetarians do it to condescend. Makes them feel good about
>> themselves without actually making the effort of being good people.
>> Most vegetarians I know are doing it for their health -- to each his own.
>> Hope they supplement and/or cheat on their diet. A lot of
>> the meat we consume (not me) is pretty unhealthy. Not because
>> meat is unhealthy, it is not, but because of what is in the meat
>> and the unhealthy conditions it is raised under.
>
> You are really insulting a lot of people by saying that.

Who am I insulting? The condescending ones? I guess I am
insulting them by calling their behavior condescending.
They are condescending.

By the way, there are lots of nice vegetarians that don't
condescend. In my humble experience, they way outnumber
the condescending ones.


>> Trust me, is because they are fat.
>
> No. I really don't think so.

We will have to disagree as friends

>>
>>> I see plenty of fat people around here. People who are fatter than me.
>>> I've yet to hear anyone make a disparaging comment about them.
>>
>> Keep those friends!
>
>>> My dad was and is fat. He had a very good career. Went far up in the
>>> company. His weight didn't affect that at all.
>>
>> There is hope. Females suffer from fat bigotry far worse than
>> men. And since dieting makes you fat [10], guess what
>> happens to women when they give into to social pressure
>> and diet? (Should that have been a question mark or a period?)
>
> Oh good grief!
>>
>> Men suffer from being "success objects".
>
> Really good grief! Now you are insulting everyone and you yourself are
> coming across as a bigot.

Women as sex objects and men a as success objects. That is a common
observation. It does not make me a bigot. But, your observation
does make you come across as looking to pick fights were there
are none.

>>
>> Our goal in society should be to judge people based on the
>> strength of their character. Not what they look like.
>
> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh... How about we don't judge them at all? Of course judging
> is human nature too.

You must make judgments to survive. The point is to make
proper judgments.

>
>
>> 1) http://vet.sagepub.com/content/18/2/143.full.pdf
>
> Something from 1981?
>>
>> 2) http://www.johnrobbins.info/blog/grass-fed-beef/
>
> A blog?
>>
>> 3)
>> http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf
>>
>> 4)
>> http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.co...n=2&article=77
>
> Something from 2004?
>>
>> 5) https://www.google.com/Acetyl+L-Carnitine+neuropathy
>
> A Google search? Did that myself. No cite there said that lack of it
> caused neuropathy. One cite said that it might.
>>
>> 6)
>> http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf
>>
> 2004?
>
>> 7) http://www.medicinenet.com/vegetaria...diet/page2.htm
>
> Damn, Skippy! Your own cite proved you wrong there!
>>
>> 8) http://www.drnickcampos.com/health-n...deficiency.htm
>>
> We weren't talking about vitamin B deficiencies. And most vegans do know to
> eat nutritional yeast to prevent that.
>> 9)
>> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-veganism.aspx
>
> A cite from a quack? Not even going to read that.
>>
>> 10) http://www.alternet.org/story/91890/..._makes_you_fat
>
> 2008.
>>
>> 11)
>> http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-p...se-and-cancer/
>
> Not interested in that.
>>
>> 12)
>> http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoo...s/fig-wasp.htm
>
> Okay...
>>
>> 13) http://www.retronaut.com/2011/11/vin...ight-gain-ads/
>
> Okay...
>
> You threw up a bunch of crap links, wasting my time. And not one thing
> proves what you said about lack of L Carnitine causing neuropathy.

That is because you did not read them. You just want to pick fights.

On 03/18/2013 03:18 PM, W. Baker wrote:

Hi W.,

The way the quotes came up, I can not tell
what you wrote me.

I think you said something about Nutritional Yeast
and B vits. I hope you find a hole in the conversation
with any vegi's that you know so you can let them know.

Also, I did a search on Nutritional Yeast and got
a lot back on it being an excytotoxin (free glutamic acid).
Can you verify this?

-T

On 03/18/2013 02:35 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
> Nonsenese! Please, please quit your lying! Please! Vegetarians can eat
> dairy and eggs. Vegans do not. Vegans do not use any animal products. Not
> even leather. Vegetarians can use leather. Not all do.


Hi Julie,

I am not lying. We are using different definitions. Since
I did not know what your personal one was, I was using what I
thought was the common definition.

This is the definition I am using. Egg and dairy eaters
would fall under the definition of "Semi-vegetarians".
Apparently the "Vegetarian Society" (see below) doesn't
think they are vegetarians at all.

-T

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism


Vegetarianism:

Vegetarianism is the practice of abstaining from the
consumption of meat – red meat, poultry, seafood and
the flesh of any other animal; it may also include
abstention from by-products of animal slaughter, such
as animal-derived rennet and gelatin.

...

Semi-vegetarian diets consist largely of vegetarian
foods, but may include fish or poultry, or sometimes
other meats, on an infrequent basis. Those with diets
containing fish or poultry may define "meat" only as
mammalian flesh and may identify with vegetarianism.
A pescetarian diet has been described as "fish but
no other meat". *The common use association between
such diets and vegetarianism has led vegetarian groups
such as the Vegetarian Society to state that diets
containing these ingredients are not vegetarian, due
to fish and birds being animals.*

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/18/2013 03:18 PM, W. Baker wrote:
>
> Hi W.,
>
> The way the quotes came up, I can not tell
> what you wrote me.
>
> I think you said something about Nutritional Yeast
> and B vits. I hope you find a hole in the conversation
> with any vegi's that you know so you can let them know.

I said that! And it's not up to us to tell any vegetarians or any other
people how to eat! Yes, I know vegetarians who don't eat properly. But I
know a heck of a lot of other people who aren't vegetarians who don't eat
right. And what is right anyway? The food pyramid? You say that's not
right!
>
> Also, I did a search on Nutritional Yeast and got
> a lot back on it being an excytotoxin (free glutamic acid).
> Can you verify this?

Nope. Don't even what that means. Only know that it's loaded with B
vitamins.

W. Baker > wrote:
: Julie Bove > wrote:


Something went wrong here with my post and all my material seems to not
have come throughat all. It was a rather complicated series of comments ,
mostly to Julie about , not cites, but where I learned much of hte
material about homnivores, Mad COw disease and feeding animals downed
animals, etc from reading Newspapers and listening to news on teh TV and
Radio(Mostly NPR) as well as material I remember learning some 60 years
ago in HS biology. I also learned about the harm that corn, actually a
perfectly good food for non-diabetics if eaten within reason, is a
terrible food that cannot be digested by cows. It tears up their guts.
this information I read , in both Omnivore's dilemma by Polard and Michael
S---? book on the cattle industry, but i forget the name(senior moment-it
will come to me in the middle of the night, causing me to lose sleep:-)

I interleafed it, but none of it seems to have gotten through. No idea
why.

Wendy

: : "Todd" >
wrote in message : : ...
: : > On 03/18/2013 12:21 AM, Julie Bove wrote:
: : >> "Todd" > wrote in message
: : >> ...
: : >>> On 03/17/2013 09:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
: : >>>> What's unnatural? Are you calling vegetarianism unnatural?
: : >>>
: : >>> Yes. Our eyes on the front of our heads, not the sides.
: : >>> We can not eat grass. We are born virtually blind and
: : >>> helpless. We can not run 30 minutes after being born.
: : >>> We do not have two stomaches. Yada, Yada, Yada.
: : >
: : >> We can eat grass.
: : >
: : > If you mean can we swallow grass, then yes. That is not what I meant.
: : > We can not break down the cellulose like a real herbivore. We
: : > need two stomaches for that.
: : >
: : >> One of my customers bought bags of grass seed on a
: : >> regular basis to be used for sprouts. He ate them.
: : >
: : > Sprouts and full grown grass are two different things. We can
: : > eat (digest) sprouts. They haven't developed the cellulose
: : > to the point where they are just bran to us.
: : >
: : >> Granted, most people
: : >> don't eat grass but we could.
: : >
: : > Yes we could swallow it. It is called "bran" to an omnivore.
: : > We can't digest it.
: : >
: : >> And no, we don't have two stomachs. Are you
: : >> comparing us to cows?
: : >
: : > Cow have two stomachs, so they can digest cellulose. We
: : > can't. You missed the point.

: : You do know that cellulose is added to a lot of food. Right? And what does
: : that have to do with vegetarianism? It doesn't!

: : >> Because cows can eat corn too.
: : >
: : > True. And it is really bad for them. It gives them ulcers [1]
: : > [2] [3]. It is unnatural to feed them corn. That is why feed
: : > lots have to race to fatten up cows before they kill them.
: : > We are not carrion eaters.

: : Cite that corn gives them ulcers? And we certainly can be carion eaters.
: : Ever watch Honey
: : Boo Boo? Seen those foreign films where the natives find a dead animal and
: : butcher it?
: : >
: : >> Are you saying that
: : >> we can't eat corn?
: : >
: : > We can. We shouldn't. It is like eating pure sugar. I
: : > believed that stupid food pyramid and their healthy
: : > carbohydrates monkey shine. I truly believe it is what
: : > burned out my beta cells. I know we disagree on this subject.

: : No. It's not like pure sugar at all. And yes, we very much do disagree.
: : >
: : >> These days cows eat all sorts of things. Well, some
: : >> cows anyway.
: : >
: : > They use to feed dead cows back to cows. Gross. Cows are
: : > not cannibals. Gave them Mad Cow disease. Hmmm.
: : > Really thought that one out really well, didn't they.

: : Oh really? Cite for that, then! You make all these off the wall claims and
: : just expect us to belive what you say!

: : >>> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
: : >>> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
: : >>> then we are just like bears.
: : >>
: : >> No we're not.
: : >
: : > Both humans and bears are omnivores. Neither one of us
: : > are herbivores as neither one of us can digest grass
: : > (cellulose). I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.

: : Cite that the definition of an herbivore means digesting grass?
: : >
: : > Their are four basic type of mammals:
: : > herbivores
: : > omnivores
: : > carnivores
: : > carrion eaters
: : >
: : > We and bears are omnivores. Bears are also carrion eaters.
: : > Unless you think hot dogs are carrion, then ...

: : I know what carion is and some humans do in fact eat it.

: : >> Just because we *can* eat things doesn't mean that we should.
: : >
: : > 100% agree.
: : >
: : >>>
: : >>> By the way, lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causes neuropathy.
: : >>> See what I am getting at?
: : >>>
: : >> Nope. Except that you seem very misguided on a lot of things.
: : >
: : > Play nice with the other children in the sand box.

: : Well, you're not really playing nice. Making all kinds of outlandish claims
: : as though they were fact.
: : >
: : >> Cite for
: : >> lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causing neuropathy?
: : >
: : > Absolutely! [4] [5] Could this have been a contributing
: : > factor to your neuropathy? Vegetarianism causes all kinds
: : > of nerve damage if you are not careful to supplement
: : > and/or cheat on your diet (or eat figs). [6] [7] [8] [9]

: : That's not a cite. You put a quote from some place and didn't even
: : attribute to where it came from. I was a vegetarian for many years and had
: : no nerve damage. I know plenty of vegetarians now with no nerve damage.
: : >
: : >>
: : >>> Vegetarianism is unnatural. We are not cows or horses.
: : >>
: : >> It's not unnatural for me or all of the other vegetarians and vegans on
: : >> the
: : >> face of this earth.
: : >
: : > Oh yes, it is unnatural. So is space travel. It is up to the beholder
: : > to judge whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. I am not
: : > trying to offend you.

: : Now you say that space travel is unnatural? This is really getting
: : laughable. And you really are offending my sensibilities with all of this
: : clap trap.
: : >
: : > If you are a strict, true vegetarian, meaning you do not consume
: : > any animal nutrition (insects or meat [and fish is meat]) or use
: : > science to synthesize what you are missing, you will get very ill and risk
: : > death. I would posit anything that hurts someone is a bad thing.

: : Totally untrue! Just freaking totally!
: : >
: : > Some unnatural things are not bad things, like taking metformin.
: : >
: : > We can survive as pure carnivores, as do the Inuits [11], but we can
: : > not survive as pure vegetarians.

: : We could not survive like the Intuits. Few people in this country would eat
: : what they ate. And it is not available to us.
: : >
: : > That being said, very few vegetarians really are. They are just
: : > picky eaters. They eats bugs (figs [12] and bugs in their grains),
: : > milk, eggs, fish, chicken and on and so forth.

: : Nonsenese! Please, please quit your lying! Please! Vegetarians can eat
: : dairy and eggs. Vegans do not. Vegans do not use any animal products. Not
: : even leather. Vegetarians can use leather. Not all do.
: : >
: : > "Some" vegetarians do it to condescend. Makes them feel good about
: : > themselves without actually making the effort of being good people.
: : > Most vegetarians I know are doing it for their health -- to each his own.
: : > Hope they supplement and/or cheat on their diet. A lot of
: : > the meat we consume (not me) is pretty unhealthy. Not because
: : > meat is unhealthy, it is not, but because of what is in the meat
: : > and the unhealthy conditions it is raised under.

: : You are really insulting a lot of people by saying that.

: : >>>> What's a fat suite?
: : >>>
: : >>> It is a rubber suite that makes you look fat. Pretty
: : >>> realistic looking too. Lots of bigotry against fat people
: : >>> out there.
: : >
: : >> Those fat suits that I have seen make the person look grossly obese. I
: : >> have
: : >> never been grossly obese. I have been fat. I am fat. I have been thin.
: : >> I
: : >> have been very thin. Some of the most cruel remarks that people made to
: : >> and
: : >> about me came about when I was thin.
: : >
: : > Back before the television, I have seen adds for weight gain products
: : > that made big fun of skinny girls [13]. They implied a skinny girl
: : > could not get married, among other things.

: : Uh huh.
: : >
: : >> As a fat person, I have only ever had
: : >> one person make comments about my weight. That person makes nasty
: : >> comments
: : >> to and about any person who is overweight. He himself is very
: : >> overweight.
: : >> More overweight than I am. This person has a lot of other issues and
: : >> isn't
: : >> the most socially adept person. So his comments to me are meaningless.
: : >
: : > The proper response to folks like that is "Bite Me!" Ignore people
: : > like that.

: : Uh huh.
: : >
: : >>
: : >> Yes, I have seen those shows on TV and read magazine articles and such
: : >> about
: : >> how the people in the fat suits were mistreated. But it could also be
: : >> that
: : >> they were carrying themselves differently than normal. I just don't
: : >> know.
: : >
: : > Trust me, is because they are fat.

: : No. I really don't think so.
: : >
: : >> I see plenty of fat people around here. People who are fatter than me.
: : >> I've yet to hear anyone make a disparaging comment about them.
: : >
: : > Keep those friends!

: : >> My dad was and is fat. He had a very good career. Went far up in the
: : >> company. His weight didn't affect that at all.
: : >
: : > There is hope. Females suffer from fat bigotry far worse than
: : > men. And since dieting makes you fat [10], guess what
: : > happens to women when they give into to social pressure
: : > and diet? (Should that have been a question mark or a period?)

: : Oh good grief!
: : >
: : > Men suffer from being "success objects".

: : Really good grief! Now you are insulting everyone and you yourself are
: : coming across as a bigot.
: : >
: : > Our goal in society should be to judge people based on the
: : > strength of their character. Not what they look like.

: : Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh... How about we don't judge them at all? Of course judging
: : is human nature too.


: : > 1) http://vet.sagepub.com/content/18/2/143.full.pdf

: : Something from 1981?
: : >
: : > 2) http://www.johnrobbins.info/blog/grass-fed-beef/

: : A blog?
: : >
: : > 3)
: : > http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf
: : >
: : > 4)
: : > http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.co...n=2&article=77

: : Something from 2004?
: : >
: : > 5) https://www.google.com/Acetyl+L-Carnitine+neuropathy

: : A Google search? Did that myself. No cite there said that lack of it
: : caused neuropathy. One cite said that it might.
: : >
: : > 6)
: : > http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wbc/...sionsimple.pdf
: : >
: : 2004?

: : > 7) http://www.medicinenet.com/vegetaria...diet/page2.htm

: : Damn, Skippy! Your own cite proved you wrong there!
: : >
: : > 8) http://www.drnickcampos.com/health-n...deficiency.htm
: : >
: : We weren't talking about vitamin B deficiencies. And most vegans do know to
: : eat nutritional yeast to prevent that.
: : > 9)
: : > http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-veganism.aspx

: : A cite from a quack? Not even going to read that.
: : >
: : > 10) http://www.alternet.org/story/91890/..._makes_you_fat

: : 2008.
: : >
: : > 11)
: : > http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-p...se-and-cancer/

: : Not interested in that.
: : >
: : > 12)
: : > http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoo...s/fig-wasp.htm

: : Okay...
: : >
: : > 13) http://www.retronaut.com/2011/11/vin...ight-gain-ads/

: : Okay...

: : You threw up a bunch of crap links, wasting my time. And not one thing
: : proves what you said about lack of L Carnitine causing neuropathy.

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/18/2013 02:35 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>> "Todd" > wrote in message
>
>>> Cow have two stomachs, so they can digest cellulose. We
>>> can't. You missed the point.
>>
>> You do know that cellulose is added to a lot of food. Right? And what
>> does
>> that have to do with vegetarianism? It doesn't!
>
> "cellulose" is called "bran" in humans. They derive no nutritious
> from. Grass is cellulose.

So? Cellulose is still put in a lot of food that people eat. We don't
derive any nutrition from Aspartame either. And I'll bet a lot of people
consume there here! And Splenda too.
>
>>
>>>> Because cows can eat corn too.
>>>
>>> True. And it is really bad for them. It gives them ulcers [1]
>>> [2] [3]. It is unnatural to feed them corn. That is why feed
>>> lots have to race to fatten up cows before they kill them.
>>> We are not carrion eaters.
>>
>> Cite that corn gives them ulcers?
>
> I already did. That was the "[2] [3]" in my sentence.

I don't want your sentence. I want the actual cite that shows where this is
true.
>
> > And we certainly can be carion eaters.
>> Ever watch Honey Boo Boo?
>
> No

Well, they eat road kill. So do apparently a lot of other people in this
country. Mainly in the South I think.
>
>> Seen those foreign films where the natives find a dead animal and
>> butcher it?
>
> Oh that can't be good. I have heard of American Indians that
> will leave a dead diseased animal to rot.

As I said above. Lots of people do it. And I never said they were
diseased.

>>>> Are you saying that
>>>> we can't eat corn?
>>>
>>> We can. We shouldn't. It is like eating pure sugar. I
>>> believed that stupid food pyramid and their healthy
>>> carbohydrates monkey shine. I truly believe it is what
>>> burned out my beta cells. I know we disagree on this subject.
>>
>> No. It's not like pure sugar at all. And yes, we very much do disagree.
>
> Corn:
>
> http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/carbcounts/a/corn.htm
>
> Glycemic Index for Corn Glycemic index studies of
> corn report averages of anywhere from 37 to 62.
> An average GI of 54 is commonly used
>
> Table sugar:
>
> http://www.sugar-and-sweetener-guide...weeteners.html
>
> Sucrose Sugar 65

I don't care what the GI of any food is. I don't go by that. And corn has
nutrients and fiber. Sugar only provides energy.

>>>> These days cows eat all sorts of things. Well, some
>>>> cows anyway.
>>>
>>> They use to feed dead cows back to cows. Gross. Cows are
>>> not cannibals. Gave them Mad Cow disease. Hmmm.
>>> Really thought that one out really well, didn't they.
>>
>> Oh really? Cite for that, then! You make all these off the wall claims
>> and
>> just expect us to belive what you say!
>
> Not off the wall at all. I had 13 cites in the last letter
> I wrote you. Missed this one. Sorry.
>
> http://praisemoves.com/2012/04/cattl...d-cow-disease/
>
That's some sort of religous Chistian site. Not gonna read that!
>
>>
>>>>> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
>>>>> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
>>>>> then we are just like bears.
>>>>
>>>> No we're not.
>>>
>>> Both humans and bears are omnivores. Neither one of us
>>> are herbivores as neither one of us can digest grass
>>> (cellulose). I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.
>>
>> Cite that the definition of an herbivore means digesting grass?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore
>
> Sorry I did not cite this as I thought you took biology in
> college.

Oh. Putting me down again then? I dropped out of college after the first
Semester or Trimester or whatever it was in those days. I did get an A+ in
both my regular and advances Algebra in Hish School. And your link did not
say anyting of the sort. I will quote:

"
A herbivore is an organism anatomically and physiologically adapted to plant
material, for example foliage, as the main component of its diet." Foliage.
You know, cabbage, lettuce, stuff like that. AFAIK there is no one animal
that can and does eat all leaves.


>
>>>
>>> Their are four basic type of mammals:
>>> herbivores
>>> omnivores
>>> carnivores
>>> carrion eaters
>>>
>>> We and bears are omnivores. Bears are also carrion eaters.
>>> Unless you think hot dogs are carrion, then ...
>>
>> I know what carion is and some humans do in fact eat it.
>
> Hot Dogs!
>
> Eating carrion is really not a good idea.
>
>>
>>>> Just because we *can* eat things doesn't mean that we should.
>>>
>>> 100% agree.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causes neuropathy.
>>>>> See what I am getting at?
>>>>>
>>>> Nope. Except that you seem very misguided on a lot of things.
>>>
>>> Play nice with the other children in the sand box.
>>
>> Well, you're not really playing nice. Making all kinds of outlandish
>> claims
>> as though they were fact.
>>>
>>>> Cite for
>>>> lack of Acetyl L-Carnitine causing neuropathy?
>>>
>>> Absolutely! [4] [5] Could this have been a contributing
>>> factor to your neuropathy? Vegetarianism causes all kinds
>>> of nerve damage if you are not careful to supplement
>>> and/or cheat on your diet (or eat figs). [6] [7] [8] [9]
>>
>> That's not a cite. You put a quote from some place and didn't even
>> attribute to where it came from. I was a vegetarian for many years and
>> had
>> no nerve damage. I know plenty of vegetarians now with no nerve damage.
>
> Then you got your animal nutrition from somewhere. Did you suppliment
> or eat dairy, fish, etc.?

When I was a vegetarian I ate small amounts of dairy and egg. When I ate a
vegan diet it was entirely plant based. No animal whatever. I am
intolerant to dairy and eggs. I can not eat them now at all ever. I do use
leather products so for that reason can not call myself vegan. But I ate a
vegan diet. I had to stop this due to my gastroparesis. I do not digest
most vegetables, meats, fruits or fats very well. That leaves me with a
very limited diet. And because of this, I take tons of supplements.

>>>>> Vegetarianism is unnatural. We are not cows or horses.
>>>>
>>>> It's not unnatural for me or all of the other vegetarians and vegans on
>>>> the
>>>> face of this earth.
>>>
>>> Oh yes, it is unnatural. So is space travel. It is up to the beholder
>>> to judge whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. I am not
>>> trying to offend you.
>>
>> Now you say that space travel is unnatural? This is really getting
>> laughable. And you really are offending my sensibilities with all of
>> this
>> clap trap.
>>>
>>> If you are a strict, true vegetarian, meaning you do not consume
>>> any animal nutrition (insects or meat [and fish is meat]) or use
>>> science to synthesize what you are missing, you will get very ill and
>>> risk
>>> death. I would posit anything that hurts someone is a bad thing.
>>
>> Totally untrue! Just freaking totally!
>
> I gave you lots of cites to nerve damage. Did you find them
> to be lying?

You gave me no cites whatever that said lack of L Carnitine causes nerve
damage. Do you even read those cites that you post?
>
>
>>>
>>> Some unnatural things are not bad things, like taking metformin.
>>>
>>> We can survive as pure carnivores, as do the Inuits [11], but we can
>>> not survive as pure vegetarians.
>>
>> We could not survive like the Intuits. Few people in this country would
>> eat
>> what they ate. And it is not available to us.
>>>
>>> That being said, very few vegetarians really are. They are just
>>> picky eaters. They eats bugs (figs [12] and bugs in their grains),
>>> milk, eggs, fish, chicken and on and so forth.
>>
>> Nonsenese! Please, please quit your lying! Please! Vegetarians can eat
>> dairy and eggs. Vegans do not. Vegans do not use any animal products.
>> Not
>> even leather. Vegetarians can use leather. Not all do
>
> First, play nice with the other kids in the sandbox.
>
> Second. Vegan is a particular type of vegetarian. I am
> using the term vegetarian as the master set of different
> types of vegetarians. Some Vegi's eat the things you
> cite and other do not. I was very clear what I was
> talking about. Stop reading offense were their is none.
> I am your friend, not your enemy.

Vegan is *not* vegetarian. There are three types of vegetarian. Lacto,
meaning that they only eat dairy and not eggs. Ovo, meaning that they only
eat eggs and no dairy. And Lacto/Ovo meaning that they eat both. Vegans do
not use any animal products of any kind. And you do not seem to be my
friend at all. If they eat fish they are Pescatarians. If people are
claiming to be vegetarian and then eating other things, they are not really
vegetarians. True vegetarians and vegans really do take offense to others
who do this! Do what you want but call it what it is!

>>> "Some" vegetarians do it to condescend. Makes them feel good about
>>> themselves without actually making the effort of being good people.
>>> Most vegetarians I know are doing it for their health -- to each his
>>> own.
>>> Hope they supplement and/or cheat on their diet. A lot of
>>> the meat we consume (not me) is pretty unhealthy. Not because
>>> meat is unhealthy, it is not, but because of what is in the meat
>>> and the unhealthy conditions it is raised under.
>>
>> You are really insulting a lot of people by saying that.
>
> Who am I insulting? The condescending ones? I guess I am
> insulting them by calling their behavior condescending.
> They are condescending.

By calling them that you are being rude. Even by saying what you are saying
is rude. There is no cheating on a vegetarian or vegan diet. You either
are or you aren't. I can't say that I am now. I do eat some meat. But I
follow a mostly vegetarian diet.
>
> By the way, there are lots of nice vegetarians that don't
> condescend. In my humble experience, they way outnumber
> the condescending ones.

Whatever.

>>>> Trust me, is because they are fat.
>>
>> No. I really don't think so.
>
> We will have to disagree as friends

Well we can disagree.

>>>> I see plenty of fat people around here. People who are fatter than me.
>>>> I've yet to hear anyone make a disparaging comment about them.
>>>
>>> Keep those friends!
>>
>>>> My dad was and is fat. He had a very good career. Went far up in the
>>>> company. His weight didn't affect that at all.
>>>
>>> There is hope. Females suffer from fat bigotry far worse than
>>> men. And since dieting makes you fat [10], guess what
>>> happens to women when they give into to social pressure
>>> and diet? (Should that have been a question mark or a period?)
>>
>> Oh good grief!
>>>
>>> Men suffer from being "success objects".
>>
>> Really good grief! Now you are insulting everyone and you yourself are
>> coming across as a bigot.
>
> Women as sex objects and men a as success objects. That is a common
> observation. It does not make me a bigot. But, your observation
> does make you come across as looking to pick fights were there
> are none.

OMG! You would never be my friend. Never! You just can't see yourself for
the bigot that you are.

>>> Our goal in society should be to judge people based on the
>>> strength of their character. Not what they look like.
>>
>> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh... How about we don't judge them at all? Of course
>> judging
>> is human nature too.
>
> You must make judgments to survive. The point is to make
> proper judgments.

Whatever that means...

Todd > wrote:
: On 03/18/2013 02:35 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
: > "Todd" > wrote in message

: >> Cow have two stomachs, so they can digest cellulose. We
: >> can't. You missed the point.

Actually they have 4!

: >
: > You do know that cellulose is added to a lot of food. Right? And what does
: > that have to do with vegetarianism? It doesn't!

: "cellulose" is called "bran" in humans. They derive no nutritious
: from. Grass is cellulose.

Well it keeps things moving along and for some folks that is a desirable
effect while for others it can be a disaster!


: >

: > Seen those foreign films where the natives find a dead animal and
: > butcher it?

: Oh that can't be good. I have heard of American Indians that
: will leave a dead diseased animal to rot.

There were tribes in New Guinea that ate the brains of their ancestors
when they died and it led to unexplained sicknesses until it was found
that some diseases were being past on(like Mad COw)

there have been cannibals too.
: Glycemic Index for Corn Glycemic index studies of
: corn report averages of anywhere from 37 to 62.
: An average GI of 54 is commonly used.

: Table sugar:

: http://www.sugar-and-sweetener-guide...weeteners.html

: Sucrose Sugar 65

Corn in reasonable quantities is fine for non-diabeticsas part of a diet.
some cultures use it as their main grain because that is what grew there.
Look at Central America, home of the tortilla, originally only corn,now
you can get corn anor wheat one, but that is only since Europeans
introduces wheat to the Western Hemisphere.

: >>>> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
: >>>> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
: >>>> then we are just like bears.
: >>>
: >>> No we're not.
How is our omnivoreness different from the bears? We both eat both
vegetable and flesh foods. The native people and the bears in Julie's
part of the country both look for the big salmon runs for sutenance
through the winter, the bears by pigging out to get fat for hibernation
and the naitive people to smoke the fish on alderwood to preserve it.

: >> Both humans and bears are omnivores. Neither one of us
: >> are herbivores as neither one of us can digest grass
: >> (cellulose). I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.


This is not all that I wrote, but I hope this, at least comes through.

Wendy

On 03/18/2013 06:18 PM, W. Baker wrote:
> . > wrote:
> : Julie > wrote:
>
>
> Something went wrong here with my post and all my material seems to not
> have come throughat all. It was a rather complicated series of comments ,
> mostly to Julie about , not cites, but where I learned much of hte
> material about homnivores, Mad COw disease and feeding animals downed
> animals, etc from reading Newspapers and listening to news on teh TV and
> Radio(Mostly NPR) as well as material I remember learning some 60 years
> ago in HS biology. I also learned about the harm that corn, actually a
> perfectly good food for non-diabetics if eaten within reason, is a
> terrible food that cannot be digested by cows. It tears up their guts.
> this information I read , in both Omnivore's dilemma by Polard and Michael
> S---? book on the cattle industry, but i forget the name(senior moment-it
> will come to me in the middle of the night, causing me to lose sleep:-)
>
> I interleafed it, but none of it seems to have gotten through. No idea
> why.
>
> Wendy

Hi Wendy,

Rats. I adore your writing.

The mad cow thing is disgusting. What made them think they
could turn herbivores into cannibals? Bad enough they
stand in their own scat (poop) in feed lots. Herbivore's
are conveyor belts: they walk and the grass (cellulose)
goes in one end and the scat goes out the other. They
never stand in their own scat. (Then birds eat the bugs
and then it decomposes into the soil and the grass
grows back. Full circle.)

About three years ago, before I knew about T2, I grew some
hybridized (for sugar content) corn. The crop bombed, but
I did get about one meal out of it. It was very tasty,
as is anything out of an organic garden. But, I do remember
it was so sweet it was like eating candy. Nice if they
hybridized it for protein and fat. Fat chance. Not as
addictive.

Senior moments have an upside. Every morning you get to eat new
food, watch new movies, meet new people ... :-)

-T

On 03/18/2013 06:12 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>> I think you said something about Nutritional Yeast
>> >and B vits. I hope you find a hole in the conversation
>> >with any vegi's that you know so you can let them know.


> I said that! And it's not up to us to tell any vegetarians or any other
> people how to eat! Yes, I know vegetarians who don't eat properly. But I
> know a heck of a lot of other people who aren't vegetarians who don't eat
> right. And what is right anyway? The food pyramid? You say that's not
> right!

Hi Julie,

It was hard to tell.

The way I see it there are three types of friends:

1) those who won't tell you your fly is unzipped

2) those who will

and

3) those who won't tell you, but will tell everyone
else.

I never said not to be tactful.

-T

On 03/18/2013 06:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>> Women as sex objects and men a as success objects. That is a common
>> >observation. It does not make me a bigot. But, your observation
>> >does make you come across as looking to pick fights were there
>> >are none.

> OMG! You would never be my friend. Never! You just can't see yourself for
> the bigot that you are.
>

I never said that the above assumptions about men and women were
a good thing. And quit jumping to conclusions about others.
I am no more a bigot than you are a toad. If you disagree
with others or don't understand them, it does not mean they
are wrong or that they are lying or that. It just makes
you disagreeable.

On 03/18/2013 06:30 PM, W. Baker wrote:
> Todd > wrote:
> : On 03/18/2013 02:35 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
> : > "Todd" > wrote in message
>
> : >> Cow have two stomachs, so they can digest cellulose. We
> : >> can't. You missed the point.
>
> Actually they have 4!

I stand corrected!

>
> : >
> : > You do know that cellulose is added to a lot of food. Right? And what does
> : > that have to do with vegetarianism? It doesn't!
>
> : "cellulose" is called "bran" in humans. They derive no nutritious
> : from. Grass is cellulose.
>
> Well it keeps things moving along and for some folks that is a desirable
> effect while for others it can be a disaster!

My point was that we did not get nutrition from cellulose
as do mammals with four stomaches. I think I remember somewhere
that some vitamins comes from friendly bacteria feasting on
bran. But, my memory is short on that one.

>
> : >
>
> : > Seen those foreign films where the natives find a dead animal and
> : > butcher it?
>
> : Oh that can't be good. I have heard of American Indians that
> : will leave a dead diseased animal to rot.
>
> There were tribes in New Guinea that ate the brains of their ancestors
> when they died and it led to unexplained sicknesses until it was found
> that some diseases were being past on(like Mad COw)
>
> there have been cannibals too.

Eeeew!

> : Glycemic Index for Corn Glycemic index studies of
> : corn report averages of anywhere from 37 to 62.
> : An average GI of 54 is commonly used.
>
> : Table sugar:
>
> : http://www.sugar-and-sweetener-guide...weeteners.html
>
> : Sucrose Sugar 65
>
> Corn in reasonable quantities is fine for non-diabeticsas part of a diet.
> some cultures use it as their main grain because that is what grew there.
> Look at Central America, home of the tortilla, originally only corn,now
> you can get corn anor wheat one, but that is only since Europeans
> introduces wheat to the Western Hemisphere.

I wonder if the original corn was lower glycemic? There has been
a lot of hybridizing going on.


> : >>>> We are "omnivores", like bears. Except that bears are
> : >>>> carrion eaters, unless you think hot dogs are carrion,
> : >>>> then we are just like bears.
> : >>>
> : >>> No we're not.

> How is our omnivoreness different from the bears? We both eat both
> vegetable and flesh foods. The native people and the bears in Julie's
> part of the country both look for the big salmon runs for sutenance
> through the winter, the bears by pigging out to get fat for hibernation
> and the naitive people to smoke the fish on alderwood to preserve it.

Oh, easy. They eat everything we eat, except they also eat
carrion (dead, stinky, rotting flesh). But, then again
we do eat hot dogs. And the stinkier the better. Hot dogs
don't smell too good ... Hmmmmm

>
> : >> Both humans and bears are omnivores. Neither one of us
> : >> are herbivores as neither one of us can digest grass
> : >> (cellulose). I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.
>
>
> This is not all that I wrote, but I hope this, at least comes through.
>
> Wendy


Great read. Thank you for rewriting!

-T

On 03/18/2013 06:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
> Well, they eat road kill. So do apparently a lot of other people in this
> country. Mainly in the South I think.


Road kill is just fine if you butcher it up right after
you hit it.

Now if you drag it off the road and let it putrefy for
a few days, then it is bear, vulture, ant, maggot food.

I would just leave flat skunks for the vultures. :-)

On 03/18/2013 06:29 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>> Sorry I did not cite this as I thought you took biology in
>> >college.

> Oh. Putting me down again then? I dropped out of college after the first
> Semester or Trimester or whatever it was in those days. I did get an A+ in
> both my regular and advances Algebra in Hish School

Actually I remember you telling me you got an A+ in college Biology.
There was no insult intended. I certainly did not mean one.

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/18/2013 02:35 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>> Nonsenese! Please, please quit your lying! Please! Vegetarians can eat
>> dairy and eggs. Vegans do not. Vegans do not use any animal products.
>> Not
>> even leather. Vegetarians can use leather. Not all do.
>
>
> Hi Julie,
>
> I am not lying. We are using different definitions. Since
> I did not know what your personal one was, I was using what I
> thought was the common definition.

That's not *my* personal definition. As I said before, there are three
distinct types of vegetarians and one type of vegan. Granted of the vegans,
some eat raw foods and some do not. Even some vegetarians only eat raw
foods. But that's a different matter.
>
> This is the definition I am using. Egg and dairy eaters
> would fall under the definition of "Semi-vegetarians".
> Apparently the "Vegetarian Society" (see below) doesn't
> think they are vegetarians at all.

Oh nonsense! Just nonsense! Egg and dairy eaters (who abstain from eating
flesh) are VEGERTARIANS!

A semi-vegetarian would be a person who eats a vegetarian diet most of the
time but occasionally eats flesh, be it chicken, beef, pork, lamb, fish,
whatever...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism
>
> -T
>
> From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism
>
>
> Vegetarianism:
>
> Vegetarianism is the practice of abstaining from the
> consumption of meat – red meat, poultry, seafood and
> the flesh of any other animal; it may also include
> abstention from by-products of animal slaughter, such
> as animal-derived rennet and gelatin.
>
Yes! We both put up the same link. But apparently you took the information
that they put and changed it into something else. A vegetarain abstains
from the consumption of meat! And by-products of animal slaughter. But you
failed to quote the egg and dairy part. In fact you failed to actually
quote what you did put. Let me quote it for ya.

" There are varieties of the diet as well: an ovo-vegetarian diet includes
eggs but not dairy products, a lacto-vegetarian diet includes dairy products
but not eggs, and an ovo-taco vegetarian diet includes both eggs and dairy
products."

Then it does on to say:

" A vegan , or strict vegetarian, diet excludes all animal products,
including eggs, dairy, beeswax and honey. Vegans also avoid animal products
such as leather for clothing and goose-fat for shoe polish."
> ...
>
> Semi-vegetarian diets consist largely of vegetarian
> foods, but may include fish or poultry, or sometimes
> other meats, on an infrequent basis. Those with diets
> containing fish or poultry may define "meat" only as
> mammalian flesh and may identify with vegetarianism.
> A pescetarian diet has been described as "fish but
> no other meat". *The common use association between
> such diets and vegetarianism has led vegetarian groups
> such as the Vegetarian Society to state that diets
> containing these ingredients are not vegetarian, due
> to fish and birds being animals.*
>
Exactly! Those diets are *not* vegetarian. Just as I said.

A pescatarian eats fish and shellfish but no other animal flesh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism

A pollotarian eats only chicken and no other animal flesh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollotarianism

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/18/2013 06:12 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>>> I think you said something about Nutritional Yeast
>>> >and B vits. I hope you find a hole in the conversation
>>> >with any vegi's that you know so you can let them know.
>
>
>> I said that! And it's not up to us to tell any vegetarians or any other
>> people how to eat! Yes, I know vegetarians who don't eat properly. But
>> I
>> know a heck of a lot of other people who aren't vegetarians who don't eat
>> right. And what is right anyway? The food pyramid? You say that's not
>> right!
>
> Hi Julie,
>
> It was hard to tell.
>
> The way I see it there are three types of friends:
>
> 1) those who won't tell you your fly is unzipped
>
> 2) those who will
>
> and
>
> 3) those who won't tell you, but will tell everyone
> else.
>
> I never said not to be tactful.
>
> -T

Well seeing as how my pants have no fly, none of those would apply to me.