I just had granite countertops and a sink installed and a plumber came in to
put in the pipes under the sink. I had signed a contract with a kitchen
place that estimated it would take the plumber 4 hrs. at 72.00/hr.,but it
took him one hr. The kitchen guy said(when I signed the contract), that an
adjustment would be made if it took less time. Today he said he had to add
travel time for the plumber. My question is: is this a usual thing? I hope
some kind person will share there knowledge with me on this. Thanks so much!
Sis

"Sis" > wrote in message
...
> I just had granite countertops and a sink installed and a plumber came in
to
> put in the pipes under the sink. I had signed a contract with a kitchen
> place that estimated it would take the plumber 4 hrs. at 72.00/hr.,but it
> took him one hr. The kitchen guy said(when I signed the contract), that an
> adjustment would be made if it took less time. Today he said he had to add
> travel time for the plumber. My question is: is this a usual thing? I hope
> some kind person will share there knowledge with me on this. Thanks so
much!
> Sis

Some trades people charge "portal-to-portal." Still, I think this is
unusual unless you live in some remote area that would require an extended
trip. Did they charge you for three hours travel time? What is the
reasonable travel time from the plumber's place of business to your home?
You can always call the plumber (of have someone else call) and ask if they
charge by the job or by the hour and if they charge for travel time.

You have learned a hard lesson as I have. Never accept a verbal promise.
You can always make a handwritten notation on a contract, date it, and have
all parties initial it. If they are true to their word they will have no
problem with this. If you think you have been ripped off and haven't paid
the balance of the bill, then pay for the hour that you actually received
and ask for an itemized bill for the travel time. I would pay a reasonable
amount for travel. You can always drive from your home to the plumber's
shop at the same time of day that he did to estimate a reasonable travel
time. If you have already paid then you are probably screwed. You could
always file a claim in small claims court and try to get a judgment. This
usually costs under $50. If the company you are suing is a corporation they
will probably have to be represented by an attorney. You can always try to
have the plumber subpoenaed to testify. The loss of time and inconvenience
for the contractor and the plumber may be enough to settle the matter.

Thanks so much for all the good advice, I really appreciate it so much. I
haven't made the final(second half) of my payment yet, and will try to get
an adjustment on the bill from the kitchen place. Also, isn't it best to
wait to make a final payment until all work is completed? The trim isn't
installed yet for a new, larger window I had installed in my kitchen and the
guy from the kitchen place said he will collect all the remainder that I owe
except for that fee from me on Monday. Do you think I can tell them to wait
until all the work on the contract is completed,since they may take longer
to do it without that incentive? Thanks, again for your advice. Sis
"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I just had granite countertops and a sink installed and a plumber came
in
> to
> > put in the pipes under the sink. I had signed a contract with a kitchen
> > place that estimated it would take the plumber 4 hrs. at 72.00/hr.,but
it
> > took him one hr. The kitchen guy said(when I signed the contract), that
an
> > adjustment would be made if it took less time. Today he said he had to
add
> > travel time for the plumber. My question is: is this a usual thing? I
hope
> > some kind person will share their knowledge with me on this. Thanks so
> much!
> > Sis
>
> Some trades people charge "portal-to-portal." Still, I think this is
> unusual unless you live in some remote area that would require an extended
> trip. Did they charge you for three hours travel time? What is the
> reasonable travel time from the plumber's place of business to your home?
> You can always call the plumber (of have someone else call) and ask if
they
> charge by the job or by the hour and if they charge for travel time.
>
> You have learned a hard lesson as I have. Never accept a verbal promise.
> You can always make a handwritten notation on a contract, date it, and
have
> all parties initial it. If they are true to their word they will have no
> problem with this. If you think you have been ripped off and haven't paid
> the balance of the bill, then pay for the hour that you actually received
> and ask for an itemized bill for the travel time. I would pay a
reasonable
> amount for travel. You can always drive from your home to the plumber's
> shop at the same time of day that he did to estimate a reasonable travel
> time. If you have already paid then you are probably screwed. You could
> always file a claim in small claims court and try to get a judgment. This
> usually costs under $50. If the company you are suing is a corporation
they
> will probably have to be represented by an attorney. You can always try
to
> have the plumber subpoenaed to testify. The loss of time and
inconvenience
> for the contractor and the plumber may be enough to settle the matter.
>
>

Thanks so much for all the good advice, I really appreciate it so much. I
haven't made the final(second half) of my payment yet, and will try to get
an adjustment on the bill from the kitchen place. Also, isn't it best to
wait to make a final payment until all work is completed? The trim isn't
installed yet for a new, larger window I had installed in my kitchen and the
guy from the kitchen place said he will collect all the remainder that I owe
except for that fee from me on Monday. Do you think I can tell them to wait
until all the work on the contract is completed,since they may take longer
to do it without that incentive? Thanks, again for your advice. Sis
"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I just had granite countertops and a sink installed and a plumber came
in
> to
> > put in the pipes under the sink. I had signed a contract with a kitchen
> > place that estimated it would take the plumber 4 hrs. at 72.00/hr.,but
it
> > took him one hr. The kitchen guy said(when I signed the contract), that
an
> > adjustment would be made if it took less time. Today he said he had to
add
> > travel time for the plumber. My question is: is this a usual thing? I
hope
> > some kind person will share their knowledge with me on this. Thanks so
> much!
> > Sis
>
> Some trades people charge "portal-to-portal." Still, I think this is
> unusual unless you live in some remote area that would require an extended
> trip. Did they charge you for three hours travel time? What is the
> reasonable travel time from the plumber's place of business to your home?
> You can always call the plumber (of have someone else call) and ask if
they
> charge by the job or by the hour and if they charge for travel time.
>
> You have learned a hard lesson as I have. Never accept a verbal promise.
> You can always make a handwritten notation on a contract, date it, and
have
> all parties initial it. If they are true to their word they will have no
> problem with this. If you think you have been ripped off and haven't paid
> the balance of the bill, then pay for the hour that you actually received
> and ask for an itemized bill for the travel time. I would pay a
reasonable
> amount for travel. You can always drive from your home to the plumber's
> shop at the same time of day that he did to estimate a reasonable travel
> time. If you have already paid then you are probably screwed. You could
> always file a claim in small claims court and try to get a judgment. This
> usually costs under $50. If the company you are suing is a corporation
they
> will probably have to be represented by an attorney. You can always try
to
> have the plumber subpoenaed to testify. The loss of time and
inconvenience
> for the contractor and the plumber may be enough to settle the matter.
>
>

"Sis" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks so much for all the good advice, I really appreciate it so much. I
> haven't made the final(second half) of my payment yet, and will try to get
> an adjustment on the bill from the kitchen place. Also, isn't it best to
> wait to make a final payment until all work is completed? The trim isn't
> installed yet for a new, larger window I had installed in my kitchen and
the
> guy from the kitchen place said he will collect all the remainder that I
owe
> except for that fee from me on Monday. Do you think I can tell them to
wait
> until all the work on the contract is completed,since they may take longer
> to do it without that incentive? Thanks, again for your advice. Sis


ABSOLUTELY DO NOT PAY THE FINAL INSTALLMENT UNTIL THE WORK IS DONE!. You
already have issues and who knows what might happen with the rest of the
work. I have two horror stories about similar situations. The first was a
kitchen remodel that my mother had done by Lowe's. They required payment in
full before the work started and she paid the entire thing by check. They
took a reasonable amount of time to get all the cabinets and appliances in.
The subcontractor who did the actual work was a rip-off artist. He came in
with a couple of high school kids and tried to do a rush job. Things
weren't installed properly and the wiring was done in a very sloppy and
dangerous manner. He actually threw a bunch of expensive millwork into the
trash heap and carted it away. When I brought this to his attention he said
he didn't usually install the trim work! The stuff had to be ordered and
the job dragged on partially finished for weeks. The faucet leaked and had
to be replaced three times. The garbage disposal leaked. The exhaust
system wasn't installed right. Some of the cabinet doors had to be
replaced. They damaged the oven when they installed it. They screwed around
with the flooring saying that they couldn't get the adhesive for the sheet
vinyl. I called Armstrong who said that they had shipped the stuff weeks
before. The nightmare just continued on and on, and I won't bore you with
the details.

The second situation was with my kitchen. I had a small kitchen fire and
had to have some renovations. The people who came in to do the work turned
out to be real hacks. They ruined as much as they fixed. Fortunately the
insurance company made out the check in both my name and the contractor's
name in the full amount of the services. They started a very minor
renovation job the first of August and by mid October things had come to a
halt. I refused to accept the horrendous job they had done and was demanding
compensation for the things they had damaged. The contractor hadn't been
paid a penny and threatened to sue me. I threatened to counter-sue and ask
for punitive damages. The contractor decided to settle. We went to
arbitration. I had a stack of documents because I learned my lesson from my
mother's situation. I also had pictures and statements from contractors to
back-up my figures for what it would take to finish the job and correct
their damages. The contractor ended up taking a $4500 reduction in his fee.
If it would have gone to court I am confident that I would have done better,
but who needs that hassle.

The bottom line is not to pay until the job is done and done right. The
contractor my refuse to continue work and threaten you with legal action but
you have to stick to your position. Any reasonable business person will
want to do the job to your satisfaction. I think that business has become
so bottom-line oriented that people will cut any corner possible to make an
extra dollar. Most people don't want to "cause trouble" so they just allow
themselves to be victimized. After a while, the contractor's standard of
quality drops because people will accept inferior workmanship. At the same
time, there are people who are honest and reputable who will do a good job.
Sometimes when things go wrong you need to keep a cool head and insist on
talking to someone who can help you. Often you have to work you way up the
ladder to get help. Be persistent and have clear expectations. Tell them
what you think is fair. Put you position in writing and ask them to do the
same.

"Sis" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks so much for all the good advice, I really appreciate it so much. I
> haven't made the final(second half) of my payment yet, and will try to get
> an adjustment on the bill from the kitchen place. Also, isn't it best to
> wait to make a final payment until all work is completed? The trim isn't
> installed yet for a new, larger window I had installed in my kitchen and
the
> guy from the kitchen place said he will collect all the remainder that I
owe
> except for that fee from me on Monday. Do you think I can tell them to
wait
> until all the work on the contract is completed,since they may take longer
> to do it without that incentive? Thanks, again for your advice. Sis


ABSOLUTELY DO NOT PAY THE FINAL INSTALLMENT UNTIL THE WORK IS DONE!. You
already have issues and who knows what might happen with the rest of the
work. I have two horror stories about similar situations. The first was a
kitchen remodel that my mother had done by Lowe's. They required payment in
full before the work started and she paid the entire thing by check. They
took a reasonable amount of time to get all the cabinets and appliances in.
The subcontractor who did the actual work was a rip-off artist. He came in
with a couple of high school kids and tried to do a rush job. Things
weren't installed properly and the wiring was done in a very sloppy and
dangerous manner. He actually threw a bunch of expensive millwork into the
trash heap and carted it away. When I brought this to his attention he said
he didn't usually install the trim work! The stuff had to be ordered and
the job dragged on partially finished for weeks. The faucet leaked and had
to be replaced three times. The garbage disposal leaked. The exhaust
system wasn't installed right. Some of the cabinet doors had to be
replaced. They damaged the oven when they installed it. They screwed around
with the flooring saying that they couldn't get the adhesive for the sheet
vinyl. I called Armstrong who said that they had shipped the stuff weeks
before. The nightmare just continued on and on, and I won't bore you with
the details.

The second situation was with my kitchen. I had a small kitchen fire and
had to have some renovations. The people who came in to do the work turned
out to be real hacks. They ruined as much as they fixed. Fortunately the
insurance company made out the check in both my name and the contractor's
name in the full amount of the services. They started a very minor
renovation job the first of August and by mid October things had come to a
halt. I refused to accept the horrendous job they had done and was demanding
compensation for the things they had damaged. The contractor hadn't been
paid a penny and threatened to sue me. I threatened to counter-sue and ask
for punitive damages. The contractor decided to settle. We went to
arbitration. I had a stack of documents because I learned my lesson from my
mother's situation. I also had pictures and statements from contractors to
back-up my figures for what it would take to finish the job and correct
their damages. The contractor ended up taking a $4500 reduction in his fee.
If it would have gone to court I am confident that I would have done better,
but who needs that hassle.

The bottom line is not to pay until the job is done and done right. The
contractor my refuse to continue work and threaten you with legal action but
you have to stick to your position. Any reasonable business person will
want to do the job to your satisfaction. I think that business has become
so bottom-line oriented that people will cut any corner possible to make an
extra dollar. Most people don't want to "cause trouble" so they just allow
themselves to be victimized. After a while, the contractor's standard of
quality drops because people will accept inferior workmanship. At the same
time, there are people who are honest and reputable who will do a good job.
Sometimes when things go wrong you need to keep a cool head and insist on
talking to someone who can help you. Often you have to work you way up the
ladder to get help. Be persistent and have clear expectations. Tell them
what you think is fair. Put you position in writing and ask them to do the
same.

Thanks again, you are so helpful in this stressful time. I will absolutely
not pay them tomorrow-until the work is complete. I was trying to be a "nice
guy" but it didn't work. I want to think that people are honest and that you
can trust their word, but I see that's not true many times. I'm glad your
situation was resolved, now I have to get my courage up for tomorrow!
Thanks. Sis
PS I promise not to make a habit of writing to this group with questions
like this, since they are kind of off -topic, and I apologize, but I
thought since so many of us want nice kitchens, others may have had similar
experiences.
"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks so much for all the good advice, I really appreciate it so much.
I
> > haven't made the final(second half) of my payment yet, and will try to
get
> > an adjustment on the bill from the kitchen place. Also, isn't it best to
> > wait to make a final payment until all work is completed? The trim isn't
> > installed yet for a new, larger window I had installed in my kitchen and
> the
> > guy from the kitchen place said he will collect all the remainder that I
> owe
> > except for that fee from me on Monday. Do you think I can tell them to
> wait
> > until all the work on the contract is completed,since they may take
longer
> > to do it without that incentive? Thanks, again for your advice. Sis
>
>
> ABSOLUTELY DO NOT PAY THE FINAL INSTALLMENT UNTIL THE WORK IS DONE!. You
> already have issues and who knows what might happen with the rest of the
> work. I have two horror stories about similar situations. The first was
a
> kitchen remodel that my mother had done by Lowe's. They required payment
in
> full before the work started and she paid the entire thing by check. They
> took a reasonable amount of time to get all the cabinets and appliances
in.
> The subcontractor who did the actual work was a rip-off artist. He came
in
> with a couple of high school kids and tried to do a rush job. Things
> weren't installed properly and the wiring was done in a very sloppy and
> dangerous manner. He actually threw a bunch of expensive millwork into
the
> trash heap and carted it away. When I brought this to his attention he
said
> he didn't usually install the trim work! The stuff had to be ordered and
> the job dragged on partially finished for weeks. The faucet leaked and
had
> to be replaced three times. The garbage disposal leaked. The exhaust
> system wasn't installed right. Some of the cabinet doors had to be
> replaced. They damaged the oven when they installed it. They screwed
around
> with the flooring saying that they couldn't get the adhesive for the sheet
> vinyl. I called Armstrong who said that they had shipped the stuff weeks
> before. The nightmare just continued on and on, and I won't bore you with
> the details.
>
> The second situation was with my kitchen. I had a small kitchen fire and
> had to have some renovations. The people who came in to do the work
turned
> out to be real hacks. They ruined as much as they fixed. Fortunately the
> insurance company made out the check in both my name and the contractor's
> name in the full amount of the services. They started a very minor
> renovation job the first of August and by mid October things had come to a
> halt. I refused to accept the horrendous job they had done and was
demanding
> compensation for the things they had damaged. The contractor hadn't been
> paid a penny and threatened to sue me. I threatened to counter-sue and
ask
> for punitive damages. The contractor decided to settle. We went to
> arbitration. I had a stack of documents because I learned my lesson from
my
> mother's situation. I also had pictures and statements from contractors
to
> back-up my figures for what it would take to finish the job and correct
> their damages. The contractor ended up taking a $4500 reduction in his
fee.
> If it would have gone to court I am confident that I would have done
better,
> but who needs that hassle.
>
> The bottom line is not to pay until the job is done and done right. The
> contractor my refuse to continue work and threaten you with legal action
but
> you have to stick to your position. Any reasonable business person will
> want to do the job to your satisfaction. I think that business has become
> so bottom-line oriented that people will cut any corner possible to make
an
> extra dollar. Most people don't want to "cause trouble" so they just
allow
> themselves to be victimized. After a while, the contractor's standard of
> quality drops because people will accept inferior workmanship. At the
same
> time, there are people who are honest and reputable who will do a good
job.
> Sometimes when things go wrong you need to keep a cool head and insist on
> talking to someone who can help you. Often you have to work you way up
the
> ladder to get help. Be persistent and have clear expectations. Tell them
> what you think is fair. Put you position in writing and ask them to do
the
> same.
>
>

Thanks again, you are so helpful in this stressful time. I will absolutely
not pay them tomorrow-until the work is complete. I was trying to be a "nice
guy" but it didn't work. I want to think that people are honest and that you
can trust their word, but I see that's not true many times. I'm glad your
situation was resolved, now I have to get my courage up for tomorrow!
Thanks. Sis
PS I promise not to make a habit of writing to this group with questions
like this, since they are kind of off -topic, and I apologize, but I
thought since so many of us want nice kitchens, others may have had similar
experiences.
"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks so much for all the good advice, I really appreciate it so much.
I
> > haven't made the final(second half) of my payment yet, and will try to
get
> > an adjustment on the bill from the kitchen place. Also, isn't it best to
> > wait to make a final payment until all work is completed? The trim isn't
> > installed yet for a new, larger window I had installed in my kitchen and
> the
> > guy from the kitchen place said he will collect all the remainder that I
> owe
> > except for that fee from me on Monday. Do you think I can tell them to
> wait
> > until all the work on the contract is completed,since they may take
longer
> > to do it without that incentive? Thanks, again for your advice. Sis
>
>
> ABSOLUTELY DO NOT PAY THE FINAL INSTALLMENT UNTIL THE WORK IS DONE!. You
> already have issues and who knows what might happen with the rest of the
> work. I have two horror stories about similar situations. The first was
a
> kitchen remodel that my mother had done by Lowe's. They required payment
in
> full before the work started and she paid the entire thing by check. They
> took a reasonable amount of time to get all the cabinets and appliances
in.
> The subcontractor who did the actual work was a rip-off artist. He came
in
> with a couple of high school kids and tried to do a rush job. Things
> weren't installed properly and the wiring was done in a very sloppy and
> dangerous manner. He actually threw a bunch of expensive millwork into
the
> trash heap and carted it away. When I brought this to his attention he
said
> he didn't usually install the trim work! The stuff had to be ordered and
> the job dragged on partially finished for weeks. The faucet leaked and
had
> to be replaced three times. The garbage disposal leaked. The exhaust
> system wasn't installed right. Some of the cabinet doors had to be
> replaced. They damaged the oven when they installed it. They screwed
around
> with the flooring saying that they couldn't get the adhesive for the sheet
> vinyl. I called Armstrong who said that they had shipped the stuff weeks
> before. The nightmare just continued on and on, and I won't bore you with
> the details.
>
> The second situation was with my kitchen. I had a small kitchen fire and
> had to have some renovations. The people who came in to do the work
turned
> out to be real hacks. They ruined as much as they fixed. Fortunately the
> insurance company made out the check in both my name and the contractor's
> name in the full amount of the services. They started a very minor
> renovation job the first of August and by mid October things had come to a
> halt. I refused to accept the horrendous job they had done and was
demanding
> compensation for the things they had damaged. The contractor hadn't been
> paid a penny and threatened to sue me. I threatened to counter-sue and
ask
> for punitive damages. The contractor decided to settle. We went to
> arbitration. I had a stack of documents because I learned my lesson from
my
> mother's situation. I also had pictures and statements from contractors
to
> back-up my figures for what it would take to finish the job and correct
> their damages. The contractor ended up taking a $4500 reduction in his
fee.
> If it would have gone to court I am confident that I would have done
better,
> but who needs that hassle.
>
> The bottom line is not to pay until the job is done and done right. The
> contractor my refuse to continue work and threaten you with legal action
but
> you have to stick to your position. Any reasonable business person will
> want to do the job to your satisfaction. I think that business has become
> so bottom-line oriented that people will cut any corner possible to make
an
> extra dollar. Most people don't want to "cause trouble" so they just
allow
> themselves to be victimized. After a while, the contractor's standard of
> quality drops because people will accept inferior workmanship. At the
same
> time, there are people who are honest and reputable who will do a good
job.
> Sometimes when things go wrong you need to keep a cool head and insist on
> talking to someone who can help you. Often you have to work you way up
the
> ladder to get help. Be persistent and have clear expectations. Tell them
> what you think is fair. Put you position in writing and ask them to do
the
> same.
>
>

"Sis" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks again, you are so helpful in this stressful time. I will absolutely
> not pay them tomorrow-until the work is complete. I was trying to be a
"nice
> guy" but it didn't work. I want to think that people are honest and that
you
> can trust their word, but I see that's not true many times. I'm glad your
> situation was resolved, now I have to get my courage up for tomorrow!
> Thanks. Sis
> PS I promise not to make a habit of writing to this group with questions
> like this, since they are kind of off -topic, and I apologize, but I
> thought since so many of us want nice kitchens, others may have had
similar
> experiences.

I would just tell them that it was your understanding that the final payment
was to be made when the job was COMPLETED. Therefore, you are surprised
they would even ask for payment prematurely. I would also ask them to
provide details on how they intend to charge for the ONE HOUR of plumbing
services at the agreed upon hourly rate. You should go to one of the
mapping websites like http://maps.yahoo.com/dd and put in your address and
the plumber's address. It will generate a map with the mileage and the
estimated driving time. When they start talking about travel time you will
have something to discuss. (print out the map) For instance, if it takes 34
minutes to get from the plumber's shop to your house then you would multiply
the hourly fee by 34/60 to arrive at a reasonable fee. No matter what they
say, tell them that the maximum you will pay for the plumber is the one hour
of services plus the travel time from his/her shop.