Has anyone NG posters cured with nitrites or nitrates in your brine, or
cure? I have done a dry rub with Morton's Tenderquick[.5% sodium nitrite and
nitrate], with limited success as it only cures the surface. The FDA says
that your finished cured meat shouldn't have more than 200 parts per million
to avoid the evil cancer from emerging.
If any have "had a go" at this I'm very interested in knowing what you came
up with and your recipe for the brine.
Thanks,
Kent

"Kent" > wrote in message
. ..
> Has anyone NG posters cured with nitrites or nitrates in your brine, or
> cure? I have done a dry rub with Morton's Tenderquick[.5% sodium nitrite
> and nitrate], with limited success as it only cures the surface. The FDA
> says that your finished cured meat shouldn't have more than 200 parts per
> million to avoid the evil cancer from emerging.
> If any have "had a go" at this I'm very interested in knowing what you
> came up with and your recipe for the brine.
> Thanks,
> Kent

With a brine, I inject the meat for better penetration. I've not tried any
of the dry cures. Here are a couple of recipes I"ve used many times.


How do I make my own corned beef?


For best results, use trimmed briskets.





Start with a curing brine. This recipe makes enough for 25 lbs of meat.





5 quarts ice water (about 38-40F)

8 oz. salt

3 oz. Prague Powder #1

3 oz. powdered dextrose



Spray pump the briskets to about 12-15% of their original weight. After
pumping, the briskets are packed in a vat, and sprinkled with whole pickling
spice. If more than one brisket is done at a time, pack them flesh to flesh
with the fat sides out. Add enough brine to cover and allow to cure for 3-4
days at 38-40F. The meat is then ready to use (but still requires cooking).











What is pastrami and how do I make my own?


For best results, use trimmed briskets.





Start with a curing brine. This makes enough for 25 lbs of meat.





5 quarts ice water (about 38-40F)

8 oz. salt

5 oz. Prague Powder #1

5 oz. powdered dextrose

1 Tb garlic juice



Prepare and cure as for corned beef.



After curing, remove from brine and rub liberally with cracked black pepper
and coriander seeds.



Smoke at 140F until the meat is dry and then increase smoker temperature to
200-220F and hold until internal temperature of meat reaches 170-180F.



Chill overnight before using. This meat is fully cooked.

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
y.com...
>
> "Kent" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Has anyone NG posters cured with nitrites or nitrates in your brine, or
>> cure? I have done a dry rub with Morton's Tenderquick[.5% sodium nitrite
>> and nitrate], with limited success as it only cures the surface. The FDA
>> says that your finished cured meat shouldn't have more than 200 parts per
>> million to avoid the evil cancer from emerging.
>> If any have "had a go" at this I'm very interested in knowing what you
>> came up with and your recipe for the brine.
>> Thanks,
>> Kent

> With a brine, I inject the meat for better penetration. I've not tried
> any of the dry cures. Here are a couple of recipes I"ve used many times.
> How do I make my own corned beef?
> For best results, use trimmed briskets.
> Start with a curing brine. This recipe makes enough for 25 lbs of meat.
> 5 quarts ice water (about 38-40F)
> 8 oz. salt
> 3 oz. Prague Powder #1
> 3 oz. powdered dextrose
> Spray pump the briskets to about 12-15% of their original weight. After
> pumping, the briskets are packed in a vat, and sprinkled with whole
> pickling spice. If more than one brisket is done at a time, pack them
> flesh to flesh with the fat sides out. Add enough brine to cover and
> allow to cure for 3-4 days at 38-40F. The meat is then ready to use (but
> still requires cooking).

> What is pastrami and how do I make my own?
> For best results, use trimmed briskets.
> Start with a curing brine. This makes enough for 25 lbs of meat.
> 5 quarts ice water (about 38-40F)
> 8 oz. salt
> 5 oz. Prague Powder #1
> 5 oz. powdered dextros
> 1 Tb garlic juice
> Prepare and cure as for corned beef. After curing, remove from brine and
> rub liberally with cracked black pepper and coriander seeds.
> Smoke at 140F until the meat is dry and then increase smoker temperature
> to 200-220F and hold until internal temperature of meat reaches 170-180F
> Chill overnight before using. This meat is fully cooked.
>
Edwin, with your Prague Powder ratios to water above, how many parts per
million do estimate your cured product to be and how PPM nitrite is your
brine? As you know better than I, the FDA says the maximum nitrate and
nitrite concentration is 200 ppm by weight. Finally, why do you have a
formula for each, rather than one universal "recipe"

Would you please check the following with me. My Phd in chemistry brother
says:
1 oz, by vol of Morton's Tenderquick to 1 quart water yields a brine
concentration of about 150 PPM by weight. Tenderquick has .5% NaNO2, and .5%
NaN03; I can't believe I remembered something I learned 40+ years ago. If
you use an amount of brine equal to the volume of what you're curing and it
fully equilibrates on both sides the cured meat should contain 75 PPM
Nitrite. If you used 33% "to be cured meat" and 66% brine that should yield
100 PPM. As you know much better than I, that doesn't happen with brine
curing alone, except for a very thin piece of meat.
Thanks very much,
Kent

"Kent" > wrote in message
>> Start with a curing brine. This recipe makes enough for 25 lbs of meat.
>> 5 quarts ice water (about 38-40F)
>> 8 oz. salt
>> 3 oz. Prague Powder #1
>> 3 oz. powdered dextrose
>> Spray pump the briskets to about 12-15% of their original weight.

> Edwin, with your Prague Powder ratios to water above, how many parts per
> million do estimate your cured product to be and how PPM nitrite is your
> brine?


I don't have a clue. This works so I use it.

> As you know better than I, the FDA says the maximum nitrate and nitrite
> concentration is 200 ppm by weight. Finally, why do you have a formula for
> each, rather than one universal "recipe"

Because that is what I copied from Rick Thead's web page a long time ago.
Rick is still alive, I'm still alive, the meat tastes good. Works for me.



>
> Would you please check the following with me. My Phd in chemistry brother
> says:
> 1 oz, by vol of Morton's Tenderquick to 1 quart water yields a brine
> concentration of about 150 PPM by weight. Tenderquick has .5% NaNO2, and
> .5% NaN03; I can't believe I remembered something I learned 40+ years
> ago.


Sounds about right. But at 10PM on a Saturday night I'm not going to take a
lot of time to do the calculation.

If
> you use an amount of brine equal to the volume of what you're curing and
> it fully equilibrates on both sides the cured meat should contain 75 PPM
> Nitrite. If you used 33% "to be cured meat" and 66% brine that should
> yield 100 PPM. As you know much better than I, that doesn't happen with
> brine curing alone, except for a very thin piece of meat.

Injecting is needed on larger cuts so it will equilibrate somewhat rather
than just rely on osmosis.

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:51:13 -0700, Kent wrote:
>
>> Has anyone NG posters cured with nitrites or nitrates in your brine, or
>> cure? I have done a dry rub with Morton's Tenderquick[.5% sodium nitrite
>> and
>> nitrate], with limited success as it only cures the surface. The FDA says
>> that your finished cured meat shouldn't have more than 200 parts per
>> million
>> to avoid the evil cancer from emerging.
>> If any have "had a go" at this I'm very interested in knowing what you
>> came
>> up with and your recipe for the brine.
>> Thanks,
>> Kent
>
> I brine skirt steaks with TQ to make quick corned beef and
> pastramis.
>
> -sw

How many oz. TQ/.quart H2O and what is the weight of the beef to the volume
of the cure.
Thanks,
Kent

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 23:41:11 -0700, Kent wrote:
>
>> How many oz. TQ/.quart H2O and what is the weight of the beef to the
>> volume
>> of the cure.
>
> I use 1/4cup + 1TB for a quart of water, brined for 24 hours.
> The directions they say on the package are seriously out of
> whack. I think they tell you to use 1cup per quart which I
> assume is some sort of mis-print.
>

That amount of NaSO3 and NaSO2 in your cure equals 360 parts per million by
weight of each compound. That's very high.

> Volume of water per poundage of meat doesn't really matter, IMO.
> I use as little as I can get away with, especially for something
> I can brine in Zip-locks. I probably use 1-1.5X the weight of
> meat.

The ratio of cure to meat weight is important. With your recipe you will
per end up with 360 PPM of nitrites and nitrates per quart. Assuming two
pounds of meat in a quart of curing mixture, after equilibration you will
have 180 PPM of nitrites and nitrates in the meat by weight.
That's very close to the FDA's maximum of 200 PPM to lower the risk of
bladder cancer from nitrosamines, the breakdown compound[s] of nitrites and
nitrates. If you use a 3 to 1 ratio of cure to meat the ratio will be
substantially higher.

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:34:01 -0700, Kent wrote:
>
>> That amount of NaSO3 and NaSO2 in your cure equals 360 parts per million
>> by
>> weight of each compound. That's very high.
> ...
>> That's very close to the FDA's maximum of 200 PPM [when equalized].
>
> That's nice. Remind me not to answer your questions anymore.
> Apparently you already knew all the answers and just wanted to
> analyze (using questionable calculations) what other people do.
>
> -sw

I'm looking for a source in addition to the one I have. Based on what my
brother tells me, your recipe is close to the maximum.

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's nice. Remind me not to answer your questions anymore.
> Apparently you already knew all the answers and just wanted to
> analyze (using questionable calculations) what other people do.

Bawahahahahahah, you idiot

Why bother to even answer the clueless divot?

Graeme...who can't quite bring himself round to kf kent for his
humour/humor value.

> wrote in message
...
> Steve Wertz > wrote:
>> On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:34:01 -0700, Kent wrote:
>>
>> > That amount of NaSO3 and NaSO2 in your cure equals 360 parts per
>> > million by weight of each compound. That's very high.
>> ...
>> > That's very close to the FDA's maximum of 200 PPM [when equalized].
>>
>> That's nice. Remind me not to answer your questions anymore.
>> Apparently you already knew all the answers and just wanted to
>> analyze (using questionable calculations) what other people do.
>
> Strange. I thought TQ used sodium nitrate and nitrite, like Prague powder,
> not the sulfate and sulfite? Even the Subject of this thread says "Curing
> with nitrites!" Questionable chemistry, too.
>
> --
> Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!
>
> Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! !
> !

My mistake, it's NaNO2 and NaNO3.

Kent, please, oh please brine a chicken in your garage next weekend and eat
the results. Don't forget to spray it with PAM first,


D
--

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 11:58:08 -0700, Kent wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a source in addition to the one I have. Based on what my
>> brother tells me, your recipe is close to the maximum.
>
> The USDA also tells you to cook your beef to 150 for Rare.
>
> I question your calculation, and the FDA's PPM warning. What
> happens if I eat two 4oz (the USRDA per) portions of cured meat -
> is that not the same as eating 400PPM? You're ingesting the same
> amount of nitr[ia]tes, just at a lower concentration.
>
> And according to your calculations, the way I looked at it,
> you're assuming the meat soaks up 50% of it's weight of brine.
>
> And even still, I was still under the FDA recommendations (using
> your calculations). Do I give a shit? No.
>
> -sw

Steve, the FDA standards are for less than 200 PPM nitrite per weight
in cured meat products. It doesn't say anything about how much you consume,
but only the dose allowed by weight in the market. The maximum nitrite in a
product is .02%, or 200 parts per million. The FDA doesn't care about the
dose of nitrite you take by eating x oz. of any meat product.
The unknown issue with brine concentration is how much equilibration is
there between brine and meat. For a 200 PPM brine, or a 500 PPM brine, what
is the concentration of nitrite you end up? As well, how much of what you
are curing by weight is actually something you will eat, I would guess in
the case of turkey it is less than half. With very lean filet mignon it is
probably 90%+. How much of the brine that ends up in the cured meat is the
unknown.
The Mortons recipe on the package[13 oz/quart H2O below] results in a
brine with slightly over 2000 PPM of nitrites. That's what prompted all of
this. It's nice to know where you start.

ounces by volume of Mortons per quart
ounce by weight of Mortons per quart
% nitrite in Mortons per quart by weight
PPM nitrites Mortons per quart by weight

1.00
1.625
0.025%
254

2.00
3.25
0.051%
508

2.25
3.65625
0.057%
571

3.00
4.875
0.076%
762

2.25
3.65625
0.057%
571

4.00
6.5
0.102%
1016

8.00
13
0.203%
2031


Kent

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:32:39 GMT, Steve Wertz wrote:
>
>> And according to your calculations, the way I looked at it,
>> you're assuming the meat soaks up 50% of it's weight of brine.
>
> Correction: Lookign at your calculations, where the amount of
> nitr[ia]tes (PPM's) is only divided by two after brining, this
> means you're expecting the meat to soak up 100% of it's weight in
> brine. IOW - if you start with 10lb brisket, you end up with a
> 20lb brisket.
>
> Don't you think that's a little unrealistic?
>
No, that's not true.
In this example, we are assuming there is 100% equilibration of the nitrites
between the brine and the meat. 200 PPM would become 100 PPM of what's in
the pail. That assumes the brine and the meat both have about 1 gm of NaCl
per 100 ml of brine. This would leave the meat at exactly the same weight
before and after brining. The NaCl by weight in the human and most animals
is very near 1 gm Nacl to 100 cc H2O. This is incorrect; we use far more
salt in our brine than what is in the meat. The NaCl concentration by wt.
of a frequently used formula of 2 oz brine by vol. per 32 oz. H2O results
in a brine wth about 5% salt. That assumes a 50 50 ratio of sugar to salt in
your brine. Equilibration of this, moves some salt, sugar and water into
what is being brined. In the supermarket, a brined turkey has less meat/lb
of turkey than an unbrined turkey, hence the "water added" language.

ounces by volume of Mortons per quart
% of Mortons per quart by volume
% nitrite in Mortons per quart by weight
PPM nitrites Mortons per quart by weight

1.00
3.13%
0.025%
254

2.00
6.25%
0.051%
508

2.25
7.03%
0.057%
571

3.00
9.38%
0.076%
62

4.00
12.50%
0.102%
1016

8.00
25.00%
0.203%
2031



By my calculation, there is 571 PPM nitrite in your brine formula.
The irony of this whole thread is that Mortons brine recipe on the package
results in 2031 PPM of nitrite. What you're doing is very safe. I read only
the dry rub instructions on the package, not the brine instructions. There
is nothing about brine in the Morton web site.

Finally, in your case, what do you brine, and does the meat taste cured,
like ham? That's the bottom line.
Thanks,
Kent

The spreadsheet in the above message didn't come through as sent, making all
of this less clear.
Sorry for that. I tested the msg. via e-mail and it worked.
Kent

"Kent" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:32:39 GMT, Steve Wertz wrote:
>>
>>> And according to your calculations, the way I looked at it,
>>> you're assuming the meat soaks up 50% of it's weight of brine.
>>
>> Correction: Lookign at your calculations, where the amount of
>> nitr[ia]tes (PPM's) is only divided by two after brining, this
>> means you're expecting the meat to soak up 100% of it's weight in
>> brine. IOW - if you start with 10lb brisket, you end up with a
>> 20lb brisket.
>>
>> Don't you think that's a little unrealistic?
>>
> No, that's not true.
> In this example, we are assuming there is 100% equilibration of the
> nitrites between the brine and the meat. 200 PPM would become 100 PPM of
> what's in the pail. That assumes the brine and the meat both have about 1
> gm of NaCl per 100 ml of brine. This would leave the meat at exactly the
> same weight before and after brining. The NaCl by weight in the human
> and most animals is very near 1 gm Nacl to 100 cc H2O. This is incorrect;
> we use far more salt in our brine than what is in the meat. The NaCl
> concentration by wt. of a frequently used formula of 2 oz brine by vol.
> per 32 oz. H2O results in a brine wth about 5% salt. That assumes a 50 50
> ratio of sugar to salt in your brine. Equilibration of this, moves some
> salt, sugar and water into what is being brined. In the supermarket, a
> brined turkey has less meat/lb of turkey than an unbrined turkey, hence
> the "water added" language.
>
> ounces by volume of Mortons per quart
> % of Mortons per quart by volume
> % nitrite in Mortons per quart by weight
> PPM nitrites Mortons per quart by weight
>
> 1.00
> 3.13%
> 0.025%
> 254
>
> 2.00
> 6.25%
> 0.051%
> 508
>
> 2.25
> 7.03%
> 0.057%
> 571
>
> 3.00
> 9.38%
> 0.076%
> 62
>
> 4.00
> 12.50%
> 0.102%
> 1016
>
> 8.00
> 25.00%
> 0.203%
> 2031
>
>
>
> By my calculation, there is 571 PPM nitrite in your brine formula.
> The irony of this whole thread is that Mortons brine recipe on the package
> results in 2031 PPM of nitrite. What you're doing is very safe. I read
> only the dry rub instructions on the package, not the brine instructions.
> There is nothing about brine in the Morton web site.
>
> Finally, in your case, what do you brine, and does the meat taste cured,
> like ham? That's the bottom line.
> Thanks,
> Kent
>
>
>

"Kent" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:32:39 GMT, Steve Wertz wrote:
>>
>>> And according to your calculations, the way I looked at it,
>>> you're assuming the meat soaks up 50% of it's weight of brine.
>>
>> Correction: Lookign at your calculations, where the amount of
>> nitr[ia]tes (PPM's) is only divided by two after brining, this
>> means you're expecting the meat to soak up 100% of it's weight in
>> brine. IOW - if you start with 10lb brisket, you end up with a
>> 20lb brisket.
>>
>> Don't you think that's a little unrealistic?
>>
> No, that's not true.
> In this example, we are assuming there is 100% equilibration of the
> nitrites between the brine and the meat. 200 PPM would become 100 PPM of
> what's in the pail. That assumes the brine and the meat both have about 1
> gm of NaCl per 100 ml of brine. This would leave the meat at exactly the
> same weight before and after brining. The NaCl by weight in the human
> and most animals is very near 1 gm Nacl to 100 cc H2O. This is incorrect;
> we use far more salt in our brine than what is in the meat. The NaCl
> concentration by wt. of a frequently used formula of 2 oz brine by vol.
> per 32 oz. H2O results in a brine wth about 5% salt. That assumes a 50 50
> ratio of sugar to salt in your brine. Equilibration of this, moves some
> salt, sugar and water into what is being brined. In the supermarket, a
> brined turkey has less meat/lb of turkey than an unbrined turkey, hence
> the "water added" language.
>
This is an attempt to clarify my post above for one ounce by volume of
Mortons TenderQuick.
Mortons by weight for one ounce by volume: 1.65 ounces
Nitrites per ounce by weight in Mortons Cu 0.005 ounces
Ounces of nitrite per quart of brine: 0.00825 ounces
The per cent of nitrite: 0.026%
The parts per million of nitrite: 258
Steve's recipe is for 2.25 ounces by volume Mortons per quart.
The results in 258 parts per million of nitrite by weight.
Steve's recipe for PPM is low. Morton's recipe results in over 2000 PPM.
We're all safe if we use that.

Again, Steve, what do you brine, and does the meat taste cured like ham?
That's the bottom line of all this. The whole idea is to cure and avoid
bladder cancer from nitrosamines.

Kent


>