Barbecue (alt.food.barbecue) Discuss barbecue and grilling--southern style "low and slow" smoking of ribs, shoulders and briskets, as well as direct heat grilling of everything from burgers to salmon to vegetables.

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Old 17-03-2012, 03:58 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)

So I started thinking....... then I measured:

Pure sodium chloride: 2.165 gr/cm^3 ("grain density")
Morton's table salt: 1.228 gr/cm^3
Diamond Crystal kosher: 0.599 gr/cm^3
Morton's kosher: 1.048 gr/cm^3
Baleine sea salt: 1.048 gr/cm^3 (fine)

So, brand matters for kosher salt. And Kosher vs. table matters.

Tomorrow, PEPPER!

-Zz
"Zz Yzx" rhymes with "physics"; or " Isaacs" if you prefer.
http://www.abandonedbutnotforgotten.com/zzyzx_road.htm

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Old 17-03-2012, 04:10 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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On Mar 17, 8:58*am, Zz Yzx wrote:
So I started thinking....... then I measured:

Pure sodium chloride: * 2.165 gr/cm^3 ("grain density")


Diamond Crystal kosher: 0.599 gr/cm^3
Morton's kosher: * * * *1.048 gr/cm^3


So, brand matters for kosher salt.


This matches my wife's report of the Morton's being "saltier". When
asked for specifics she said it was flakier, and "she didn't like it".
It must be more dense and the crystalization done differently.

Interesting. Thank you, was initially going to dissmiss this as an
anal retentive wank fest. And though it just might still be a wee bit
anal retentive bg, that's damn good info.

Thank you Zizzaacs.

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Old 18-03-2012, 12:40 AM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)

I use Baliene Fine as well. How can the density be the same as
Morton's kosher salt? I would expect it to be much higher since the
grains are finer than table salt. I guess it's more of a crushed up
Diamond kosher salt?


Forgive me please, I'm a geologist so I know about this stuff. In a
granular material like processed salt (or beach sand, or gravel),
grain size doesn't determine bulk density. Size sorting does. i.e.,
if you fill a room with basketballs, there's a certain portion of
voids between the balls. Fill the same room with volley balls,
softballs, baseballs, golf balls, marbles, or BBs, the void ratio
stays the same, as long as the balls are of uniform size. BUT, if you
fill the room with a mix of balls, then the little balls fill the
voids between the big balls, the bulk density increases, and the void
space decreases.

In these processed salt products, the grain size is very consistent.
The bulk density differences are due to different crystal structures
and milling processes.

There's more to tell, but I'll shut up.


So, brand matters for kosher salt. And Kosher vs. table matters.

Tomorrow, PEPPER!


Lets measure the density of the rocks in Kent's skull instead.

-sw

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Old 18-03-2012, 02:53 AM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)


"Zz Yzx" wrote in message
...
So I started thinking....... then I measured:

Pure sodium chloride: 2.165 gr/cm^3 ("grain density")
Morton's table salt: 1.228 gr/cm^3
Diamond Crystal kosher: 0.599 gr/cm^3
Morton's kosher: 1.048 gr/cm^3
Baleine sea salt: 1.048 gr/cm^3 (fine)

So, brand matters for kosher salt. And Kosher vs. table matters.

Tomorrow, PEPPER!

-Zz

I was using the specific gravity of NaCl and equating that to table salt.
The corrected percentages of the salt solutions then are 3.84% when using 1
ounce salt per quart by vol and 7.68% when using 2 ounces per quart.

Kent



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Old 18-03-2012, 03:57 AM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)


On 17-Mar-2012, tutall wrote:

On Mar 17, 8:58*am, Zz Yzx wrote:
So I started thinking....... then I measured:

Pure sodium chloride: * 2.165 gr/cm^3 ("grain density")


Diamond Crystal kosher: 0.599 gr/cm^3
Morton's kosher: * * * *1.048 gr/cm^3


So, brand matters for kosher salt.


This matches my wife's report of the Morton's being "saltier". When
asked for specifics she said it was flakier, and "she didn't like it".
It must be more dense and the crystalization done differently.

Interesting. Thank you, was initially going to dissmiss this as an
anal retentive wank fest. And though it just might still be a wee bit
anal retentive bg, that's damn good info.

Thank you Zizzaacs.


I've had occasion to have both Morton's Kosher and Diamond
Crystal Kosher on hand at the same time. They both come
in three pound boxes, but the Diamond Crystal box is way
larger then the Morton's box. The two make a good comparison
for the subject of salt weight/volume because the grain
appearance is not all that different. I mean it isn't like comparing
marbles with sand. I have a "Dos Anclas" kosher that's like
gravel. Some of the sea salts are really rough too.

--
Brick(Better to remain silent and be thought a fool
then to speak up and remove all doubt)


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Old 18-03-2012, 04:53 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)

On Mar 17, 5:40*pm, Zz Yzx wrote:

grain size doesn't determine bulk density. *Size sorting does. *i.e.,
if you fill a room with basketballs, there's a certain portion of
voids between the balls. *Fill the same room with volley balls,
softballs, baseballs, golf balls, marbles, or BBs, the void ratio
stays the same, as long as the balls are of uniform size.


Forgive me, it's been a few decades since I've done this sort of math,
and only got through one year of calculus. But is this saying that a
10ft cube full of basketballs with have the same volume (not ratio) of
void space as the same space filled with BB's?

Am pretty sure this is wrong?

The bulk density differences are due to different crystal structures
and milling processes.


Makes pefect sense.
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Old 18-03-2012, 07:15 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)


"tutall" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 5:40 pm, Zz Yzx wrote:

grain size doesn't determine bulk density. Size sorting does. i.e.,
if you fill a room with basketballs, there's a certain portion of
voids between the balls. Fill the same room with volley balls,
softballs, baseballs, golf balls, marbles, or BBs, the void ratio
stays the same, as long as the balls are of uniform size.


Forgive me, it's been a few decades since I've done this sort of math,
and only got through one year of calculus. But is this saying that a
10ft cube full of basketballs with have the same volume (not ratio) of
void space as the same space filled with BB's?

Am pretty sure this is wrong?

The bulk density differences are due to different crystal structures
and milling processes.


Makes pefect sense.


No, he said void ratio. I wish he would 'splain what that be.

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Old 18-03-2012, 08:13 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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"Zz Yzx" wrote in message
...
I use Baliene Fine as well. How can the density be the same as
Morton's kosher salt? I would expect it to be much higher since the
grains are finer than table salt. I guess it's more of a crushed up
Diamond kosher salt?


Forgive me please, I'm a geologist so I know about this stuff. In a
granular material like processed salt (or beach sand, or gravel),
grain size doesn't determine bulk density. Size sorting does. i.e.,
if you fill a room with basketballs, there's a certain portion of
voids between the balls. Fill the same room with volley balls,
softballs, baseballs, golf balls, marbles, or BBs, the void ratio
stays the same, as long as the balls are of uniform size. BUT, if you
fill the room with a mix of balls, then the little balls fill the
voids between the big balls, the bulk density increases, and the void
space decreases.

In these processed salt products, the grain size is very consistent.
The bulk density differences are due to different crystal structures
and milling processes.

There's more to tell, but I'll shut up.


So, brand matters for kosher salt. And Kosher vs. table matters.

Tomorrow, PEPPER!


Lets measure the density of the rocks in Kent's skull instead.

-sw




Kosher salt grains are larger than table salt and are of irregular shape.
I'd guess there is more air between the grains. That's "void" I guess. The
Kosher grain may be less dense than the table salt grain.

I just weighed Morton's table salt and came up with 1.3 ounce by weight to 1
ounce by volume, for a specific gravity of 1.3. One ounce by volume of table
salt is therefore 4.06% by weight per 32 oz quart of water and 8.13% for two
ounces of salt per quart.

Thanks for your post. I've seen the figure 2.15 attached to the words "table
salt". I can't find the 1.028 figure, though I'm sure you're right on.

Kent




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Old 18-03-2012, 08:27 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:53:53 -0700 (PDT), tutall
wrote:

On Mar 17, 5:40*pm, Zz Yzx wrote:

grain size doesn't determine bulk density. *Size sorting does. *i.e.,
if you fill a room with basketballs, there's a certain portion of
voids between the balls. *Fill the same room with volley balls,
softballs, baseballs, golf balls, marbles, or BBs, the void ratio
stays the same, as long as the balls are of uniform size.


Forgive me, it's been a few decades since I've done this sort of math,
and only got through one year of calculus. But is this saying that a
10ft cube full of basketballs with have the same volume (not ratio) of
void space as the same space filled with BB's?

Am pretty sure this is wrong?


This will make your brain hurt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_packing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_close_pack
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...716.x/abstract
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Old 18-03-2012, 09:18 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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On Mar 18, 1:27*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:53:53 -0700 (PDT), tutall
wrote:

On Mar 17, 5:40*pm, Zz Yzx wrote:


grain size doesn't determine bulk density. *Size sorting does. *i.e.,
if you fill a room with basketballs, there's a certain portion of
voids between the balls. *Fill the same room with volley balls,
softballs, baseballs, golf balls, marbles, or BBs, the void ratio
stays the same, as long as the balls are of uniform size.


Forgive me, it's been a few decades since I've done this sort of math,
and only got through one year of calculus. But is this saying that a
10ft cube full of basketballs with have the same volume (not ratio) of
void space as the same space filled with BB's?


Am pretty sure this is wrong?


This will make your brain hurthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_packinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_close_packhttp://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1151-2916.1961.tb13716.x...


Well, a little bit, none of these addressed volume though, just ratios
again.
Am pretty sure that as the diameter of the sphere decreases there is a
corresponding decline in free volume so that the close to 0 diameter
becomes, the closer to 0 free space volume is.
And visa versa, with the largest free volume being described by one
sphere that fits into the defined space.


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Old 18-03-2012, 11:42 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Sqwertz wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:18:18 -0500, Sqwertz wrote:

Kosher salt, especially, breaks easily and creates power.


I'm not one of the holistic healing power of crystals freaks. I meant
"POWDER".


Uh huh, sure Steve, sure..... I can hear you 'Om-ing' from here.
--
Dave
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."......
Robert Heinlein


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Old 19-03-2012, 01:38 AM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:53:53 -0700 (PDT), tutall
wrote:

On Mar 17, 5:40*pm, Zz Yzx wrote:

grain size doesn't determine bulk density. *Size sorting does. *i.e.,
if you fill a room with basketballs, there's a certain portion of
voids between the balls. *Fill the same room with volley balls,
softballs, baseballs, golf balls, marbles, or BBs, the void ratio
stays the same, as long as the balls are of uniform size.


Forgive me, it's been a few decades since I've done this sort of math,
and only got through one year of calculus. But is this saying that a
10ft cube full of basketballs with have the same volume (not ratio) of
void space as the same space filled with BB's?


That is correct. Fill a cube with basketballs, softballs, BBs,
whatever, the PERCENTAGE of void space (i.e., the total volume of the
cube minus the volume of the sphere; "porosity" in geologic jargon),
is the same, as long as the "packing" stays the same.

Look at this way: take a cube 1 foot square. Now stick a sphere
inside that just fits. Now, in your mind, make the cube/sphere bigger
and then smaller. The volumes of the cube and sphere change, but the
porosity (volume cube - volume sphere) stays the same. Now, stack a
series of said cubes/spheres side by side, up and down, make them
bigger/smaller, the volume ratios (porosity) are constant, again as
long as the packing arrangement stays constant.

Am pretty sure this is wrong?

The bulk density differences are due to different crystal structures
and milling processes.


Makes pefect sense.

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Old 19-03-2012, 02:56 AM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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On Mar 18, 6:38*pm, Zz Yzx wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:53:53 -0700 (PDT), tutall
wrote:

On Mar 17, 5:40*pm, Zz Yzx wrote:


grain size doesn't determine bulk density. *Size sorting does. *i.e.,
if you fill a room with basketballs, there's a certain portion of
voids between the balls. *Fill the same room with volley balls,
softballs, baseballs, golf balls, marbles, or BBs, the void ratio
stays the same, as long as the balls are of uniform size.


Forgive me, it's been a few decades since I've done this sort of math,
and only got through one year of calculus. But is this saying that a
10ft cube full of basketballs with have the same volume (not ratio) of
void space as the same space filled with BB's?


That is correct. *Fill a cube with basketballs, softballs, BBs,
whatever, the PERCENTAGE of void space


Which is another way of saying ratio, yes yes.


(i.e., the total volume of the
cube minus the volume of the sphere; *"porosity" in geologic jargon),
is the same, as long as the "packing" stays the same.


But when the packing becomes "different", for instance, diameter?

Please reply to my post further down the thread, where I posit that as
the diameter of the packing becomes closer to zero, so does the unused
space.

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Old 19-03-2012, 03:06 AM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 18:53:55 -0500, Sqwertz
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:42:33 -0700, Dave Bugg wrote:

Sqwertz wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:18:18 -0500, Sqwertz wrote:

Kosher salt, especially, breaks easily and creates power.

I'm not one of the holistic healing power of crystals freaks. I meant
"POWDER".


Uh huh, sure Steve, sure..... I can hear you 'Om-ing' from here.


I only "Om" when I'm having a nightmare about some fat chic dressed in
black and carrying a totebag full of guns knocking on my door.

-sw


And how exactly do you *know* this, Steve? You been having that kinda
nightmare? ;-)


Desideria
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Old 19-03-2012, 05:46 AM posted to alt.food.barbecue
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Default Salt for Salt (was brining a brisket)

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 23:19:47 -0500, Sqwertz
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:06:54 -0700, Desideria wrote:

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 18:53:55 -0500, Sqwertz
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:42:33 -0700, Dave Bugg wrote:

Sqwertz wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:18:18 -0500, Sqwertz wrote:

Kosher salt, especially, breaks easily and creates power.

I'm not one of the holistic healing power of crystals freaks. I meant
"POWDER".

Uh huh, sure Steve, sure..... I can hear you 'Om-ing' from here.

I only "Om" when I'm having a nightmare about some fat chic dressed in
black and carrying a totebag full of guns knocking on my door.


And how exactly do you *know* this, Steve? You been having that kinda
nightmare? ;-)


Since I'm pretty sure you're Denny's wife and not Katra, I'll go ahead
and answer this.

Om is the nickname of somebody (Katra/Kathleen) who used to post here
that had the hots for me, and it got pretty nasty. Not here so much
as in rec.food.cooking. It was a well-documented "fiasco" that you
may not be aware of. And I'm pretty sure that's what Dave was
referring to :-)

-sw


Well, I'm definitely not Katra though I'm not exactly Denny's
wife--just really really close to that. ;-) And no, I wasn't aware of
it, and I am sorry to hear of it (though you are awfully cute and all.
g


Desideria


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