I spend two days filling out the 10 page application for a food
establishment permit, including attached photos and specifications of my
kitchen equipment for cooking, hot holding, chilling and refrigeration. I
also had to attach a breakdown of my proposed menu products and how they
were to be cooked, and if they were being purchased pre-cooked or prepared
in my kitchen. Below is a copy of the letter I received today (scanned into
Word and then copied and pasted). I love the last sentence in paragraph
six.

FYI for contextual clarity, I have 150 cu ft of refrigeration capacity AND
an Alto-Shaam blast chiller capable of cooling 145 pounds of meat from 145F
to 40F in 90 minutes. This was listed in my application. Apparently it
wasn't completely comprehended. :-) Guess what I'm going to be doing
tomorrow?


CHELAN-DOUGLAS HEALTH DISTRICT

200 Valley Mall Parkway, East Wenatchee, WA 98802
Personal Health: 509/886-6400 . FAX 886-6478
Environmental Health: 509/886-6450 . FAX 886-6449

May 19, 2004

David M. Bugg
841 N. Kentucky
E. Wenatchee, WA 98802



1010 Crescent St., Wenatchee

Dear David,

Thank you for submitting the Plan and Menu Checklist for Dave's Pit-Smoked
Bar-B-Que. Because of the extensive menu and limited refrigeration, I need
more information regarding your proposed operation.

Please provide a flow chart or procedure for each of the meats, the potato
salad and the beans. Include the size of the pieces of meat, the amount of
time it takes to cook, how you will verify final cook temperatures, amount
of time required for cooling, how you will verify cooling time, amount of
time to reheat and how you will verify reheat temperature.

Because of the limited refrigeration space, also include the maximum amount
of product that will be cooling at anyone time. Describe how you will ensure
there will not be too much hot food put in the refrigeration unit at anyone
time.

Will you be cooking different sizes of meats or different meats at the same
time? If so, how will you verify each is cooked prior to removing from the
cooking process? Because of the multiple meat products, let me know if
different meats will be cooked at the same time or if you will stick to one
product at a time. *Include information regarding the uniformity of size of
the meat.

Also, does your smoker cook or hot hold overnight? Do you set it so it goes
into an automatic hot hold after a certain amount of time? If so, how do you
verify all pieces of meat have reached proper cook temperatures prior to the
smoker going into a hot hold?

I hope the above, gives you an idea of what I am looking for with the
cooking process requested. You may be able to tell from the questions, there
have been some problems in the past with smoke processes. Your additional
information will be very helpful to help us picture your product being
handled safely. Also it is good to have the process in writing in the file
for reference in the future. Many BBQ places receive product that is already
cooked and cooled, so I didn't realize the scope of your operation until the
paperwork was submitted.

If you have any questions, please call me at 886-6462.

Sincerely,
Laura Martin
Food Program.

"Dave Bugg" <deebuggatcharterdotnet> wrote:
> I spend two days filling out the 10 page application for a food
> establishment permit, including attached photos and specifications of my
> kitchen equipment for cooking, hot holding, chilling and refrigeration.[]
> [bureaucratic bs snipped]

Jeezuz! And I thought LA was bad.

--
Intuitive insights from Nick, Retired in the San Fernando Valley
"Giving violent criminals a government guarantee that their intended
victims are defenseless is bad public policy."
- John Ross, "Unintended Consequences"
If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you can read it in English, THANK A VETERAN!

Dave Bugg wrote:
> I spend two days filling out the 10 page application for a food
> establishment permit, including attached photos and specifications
of
> my kitchen equipment for cooking, hot holding, chilling and
> refrigeration. I also had to attach a breakdown of my proposed menu
> products and how they were to be cooked, and if they were being
> purchased pre-cooked or prepared in my kitchen. Below is a copy of
> the letter I received today (scanned into Word and then copied and
> pasted). I love the last sentence in paragraph six.
>
> FYI for contextual clarity, I have 150 cu ft of refrigeration
> capacity AND an Alto-Shaam blast chiller capable of cooling 145
> pounds of meat from 145F to 40F in 90 minutes. This was listed in my
> application. Apparently it wasn't completely comprehended. :-)
> Guess what I'm going to be doing tomorrow?
>
> <snip>
> Many BBQ places receive product that is already cooked and cooled,
so I
> didn't realize the scope of your operation until the paperwork was
> submitted.
>
> If you have any questions, please call me at 886-6462.
>
> Sincerely,
> Laura Martin
> Food Program.

Looks like you're in deep doo doo Dave unless you are able to teach a
stick
to fetch a dog.

M&M( When you're over the hill you pick up speed)

These are all valid questions, and it's good to know the health guys are
working to ensure food is handled properly for the public. For once our tax
dollars seem to be working. It's one thing to cook at home for free for
friends and family and leave a cut of meat out to get to room temperature
and be 99% sure it will be OK, but far another thing to be in business and
do that.

She's just nicely telling you she hasn't yet been satisfied you know how to
or will practice approved food-handling methods. BTW your refrigeration
space does sound limited to me, too. I was expecting a walk-in cooler. She
was thoughtful to give you an outline saying exactly what you need to
demonstrate in your report, coulda been worse and it gets sent back with
"unacceptable - fail" and no explaination.

Another warning: if the health guys are crafty like they are here in Texas
they will do unannounced inspections after your lunch rush when you are
least prepared. At 1:30 on a Friday afternoon they'll barge in and start
sticking thermometers in your ranch dressing and potato salad and meats. You
better be prepared for that. They'll stick pH strips in your hand towel
sanitizers and dishwasher. They'll see if your raw chicken is sitting on a
rack above a bowl of prepared cole slaw in the walk-in cooler. The vast
majority of issues you'll have to demonstrate you will be concerned with are
TDZ and X-contamination. Look out for those and you've won most of the
battle.

"Dave Bugg" <deebuggatcharterdotnet> wrote in message
...
> Please provide a flow chart or procedure for each of the meats, the potato
> salad and the beans. Include the size of the pieces of meat, the amount of
> time it takes to cook, how you will verify final cook temperatures, amount
> of time required for cooling, how you will verify cooling time, amount of
> time to reheat and how you will verify reheat temperature.
>
> Because of the limited refrigeration space, also include the maximum
amount
> of product that will be cooling at anyone time. Describe how you will
ensure
> there will not be too much hot food put in the refrigeration unit at
anyone
> time.
>
> Will you be cooking different sizes of meats or different meats at the
same
> time? If so, how will you verify each is cooked prior to removing from the
> cooking process? Because of the multiple meat products, let me know if
> different meats will be cooked at the same time or if you will stick to
one
> product at a time. *Include information regarding the uniformity of size
of
> the meat.
>
> Also, does your smoker cook or hot hold overnight? Do you set it so it
goes
> into an automatic hot hold after a certain amount of time? If so, how do
you
> verify all pieces of meat have reached proper cook temperatures prior to
the
> smoker going into a hot hold?
>
> I hope the above, gives you an idea of what I am looking for with the
> cooking process requested. You may be able to tell from the questions,
there
> have been some problems in the past with smoke processes. Your additional
> information will be very helpful to help us picture your product being
> handled safely. Also it is good to have the process in writing in the file
> for reference in the future. Many BBQ places receive product that is
already
> cooked and cooled, so I didn't realize the scope of your operation until
the
> paperwork was submitted.
>
> If you have any questions, please call me at 886-6462.
>
> Sincerely,
> Laura Martin
> Food Program.
>
>

Jason in Dallas wrote:

> These are all valid questions, and it's good to know the health guys
> are working to ensure food is handled properly for the public. For
> once our tax dollars seem to be working. It's one thing to cook at
> home for free for friends and family and leave a cut of meat out to
> get to room temperature and be 99% sure it will be OK, but far
> another thing to be in business and do that.

I absolutely agree :-) It's just amusing to be on the other side of the
fence ... I used to work for these guys, and the inspector -- Laura -- and I
know each other quite well.

> She's just nicely telling you she hasn't yet been satisfied you know
> how to or will practice approved food-handling methods. BTW your
> refrigeration space does sound limited to me, too. I was expecting a
> walk-in cooler. She was thoughtful to give you an outline saying
> exactly what you need to demonstrate in your report, coulda been
> worse and it gets sent back with "unacceptable - fail" and no
> explaination.

Many health departments/districts will do that. The nice thing about this
agency is their philosophy of working with and educating the owners, rather
than just looking for deficiencies. My refrigeration capacity is smaller
than I had originally planned, because my meat wholesaler is just down the
road and I will only be holding a one day supply in my store. The same with
my produce, dairy and egg supplier. Over the next year, we will be adding
refrigeration capacity as the need grows.

> Another warning: if the health guys are crafty like they are here in
> Texas they will do unannounced inspections after your lunch rush when
> you are least prepared. At 1:30 on a Friday afternoon they'll barge
> in and start sticking thermometers in your ranch dressing and potato
> salad and meats. You better be prepared for that.

I have plenty of hot and cold prep holding areas.

>They'll stick pH
> strips in your hand towel sanitizers and dishwasher. They'll see if
> your raw chicken is sitting on a rack above a bowl of prepared cole
> slaw in the walk-in cooler.

Da cheeken will have its own seating section in a seperate section in one of
the coolers.

> The vast majority of issues you'll have
> to demonstrate you will be concerned with are TDZ and
> X-contamination. Look out for those and you've won most of the battle.

Thanks, Jason.

Lou wrote:
> Well Dave, as anyone in business knows, it aint all fun 'n games
> bbqing for profit!

Thanks for the information and thoughts, Lou. I used to work for the health
district --- 16 years before I left last September. It's an experience
being on the other side of the fence. :-)
Dave

Dave Bugg wrote:

> I hope the above, gives you an idea of what I am looking for with the
> cooking process requested. You may be able to tell from the questions, there
> have been some problems in the past with smoke processes. Your additional
> information will be very helpful to help us picture your product being
> handled safely.

A while back, I google-searched the name of the company that makes
the domestic smoked salmon they often sell at my Costco, not surprisingly
it is a Seattle-area outfit. What did surprise me is that they'd been
cited for at least one instance of improperly smoking salmon which
resulted in people getting sick, though apparently it's been a while
since the last time this happened. I wish I'd saved the URLs because
they'd be quite interesting now, but I didn't.

Apparently it's a really sensitive issue, and I wouldn't fault
Ms. Martin for being extremely careful. Just like we take BBQ
seriously, she takes her job of making sure food is safe seriously.

Dana

Steve Wertz wrote:

> Ask to have your application transferred to someone who has
> actually eaten at a real BBQ restaurant. I'm sure there wouldn't
> be this much resistance if you were submitting an application for
> say... a choclatier.

Sure, but you rarely read about people getting sick, or elderly
and infants dying, from E. Coli contamination in chocolate. BBQ,
if done _improperly_, increases the danger from contamination
(even though the chance of contamination is much lower in solid
cuts of meat to begin with).

Dave has clearly done a mountain of research and preparation, and
this is a great opportunity for him to educate Ms. Laura Martin
on how it is done correctly. Treat Ms. Martin with respect, answer
her questions, step her through the process, and she's likely to
learn something along the way. You want the health department as
allies, not adversaries.

Dana

Dana Myers wrote:

> A while back, I google-searched the name of the company that makes
> the domestic smoked salmon they often sell at my Costco, not
> surprisingly it is a Seattle-area outfit. What did surprise me is
> that they'd been cited for at least one instance of improperly
> smoking salmon which resulted in people getting sick, though
> apparently it's been a while since the last time this happened. I
> wish I'd saved the URLs because they'd be quite interesting now, but
> I didn't.

I remember that.

> Apparently it's a really sensitive issue, and I wouldn't fault
> Ms. Martin for being extremely careful. Just like we take BBQ
> seriously, she takes her job of making sure food is safe seriously.

I know I took my job seriously when I worked there. Laura is as competently
professional yet easy to work with as they come. I'm really not finding
fault. Like I said in other posts, it's just amusing finding myself on the
other side of the fence. Besides, I was just posting this as part of a
series of postings that I've been making covering various aspects of getting
my store up and running.

Dave

Dave Bugg wrote:
> Dana Myers wrote:
>
> I know I took my job seriously when I worked there. Laura is as
> competently professional yet easy to work with as they come. I'm
> really not finding fault. Like I said in other posts, it's just
> amusing finding myself on the other side of the fence. Besides, I was
> just posting this as part of a series of postings that I've been
> making covering various aspects of getting my store up and running.
>
> Dave

Besides, the primary point was "most BBQ places have pre-cooked meats
shipped to them cold".

Wonder where from? I guess some chain's may have a central cookhouse then? I
knew it's common for chain restaraunts to have common ingrediants, but I'm
suprised that BBQ would be as well? Well, not suprised if she's referring to
Chile's.

--

Dave Bugg wrote:

> I know I took my job seriously when I worked there. Laura is as competently
> professional yet easy to work with as they come. I'm really not finding
> fault. Like I said in other posts, it's just amusing finding myself on the
> other side of the fence. Besides, I was just posting this as part of a
> series of postings that I've been making covering various aspects of getting
> my store up and running.

You must be *especially* frustrated because you're a professional
at food safety, and then you're being questioned ;-)

It's interesting to hear your experience, absolutely. There's
an enormous distance between being a great cook, even for large
groups, at home and being in business and you're doing a superb
job of illuminating it for the rest of us. Thanks!

Dana

Duwop wrote:

> Besides, the primary point was "most BBQ places have pre-cooked meats
> shipped to them cold".

Right; I found that amusing but I guess I'd already written-off
most BBQ places as being posers in the first place, so it didn't
really strike a chord for me.

> Wonder where from? I guess some chain's may have a central cookhouse then? I
> knew it's common for chain restaraunts to have common ingrediants, but I'm
> suprised that BBQ would be as well? Well, not suprised if she's referring to
> Chile's.

My guess is that commercial smokers, like that place in Seattle
Costco gets fish from, are responsible for the vast majority
of what passes as BBQ in large chains and even in smaller
outfits. I'd actually be surprised if the larger chains
maintained their own cookhouses, because that would force
them into increased centralization with associated increased
overhead. Just look at the hoops Dave has to jump through
to become a "retail meat smoker"; large corporate and most
small joints would want to have nothing to do with this :-).

Chile's, Applebees, etc. probably all source their
"BBQ" from common sets of regional vendors.

For example, I fed "meat smoker" to http://www.switchboard.com/
and found 7 commercial smokehouses in California.

Dana

In article >, "Duwop"
> wrote:

> Well, not suprised if she's referring to
> Chile's.

Sing it!

'Chil-eee's micro-wave ribs
Chili's micro-wave ribs'
<basso> 'Smotheredinsauce'

monroe(or are they boil in bag ribs)

Hi All,

One problem that I found when running a resturant that provides something
better than the slop that is usually presented to the public of the US is
that I had to educate the inspectors. At all of my resturants I made it a
point to provide the best of everything. We made everything in house. Mayo,
dressings, and everything else. I had to send out my Caesar dressing to a
lab to prove that it didn't have too many bugs in it. I developed a recipe
that had a mix of lime and lemon juice in it to lower the pH. With the pH
lowered it became a bacteria wasteland. The lab results came back and my
recipe was found only to have a trace of bacteria after 16 hours of growth.
The recipe that the Health Department wanted me to use made with pasterized
eggs had dangerous levels of bacteria. I had to spend $300 to serve the
public a better product that was safer.

I became so disgusted with them that I got a cert. in food service
sanitation inspection instruction. That is right. I got to train health
inspectors. And, in IL. atleast, the health departments want friction
between business owners and the government.

At my classes to get my cert. the instructor coached us on how to get the
media out to a bad inspection of what he called a big fish. "One of those
places that serves food so expensive that you would only be able to afford a
pat of butter and a crust of bread with two weeks of your pay. These four
star places of the elite and super rich need to be kept in line." This was a
shock to my system after being great friends with my inspectors in Miami. We
got along so well that we even had a combined softball team and hung out
together quite often.

Dave B.
I am glad that you are on good terms with your inspector. I had problems
with many here to the point that I asked that my inspections be videoed and
two inspectors refused to allow this. I know that they all ain't bad but
until I get proved wrong in my neck of the woods I am not going to change.

BTW if you want any videos or CD's for HACCP I get them all the time.

Chef

Master Chef Richard Campbell wrote:

> One problem that I found when running a resturant that provides something
> better than the slop that is usually presented to the public of the US is
> that I had to educate the inspectors. At all of my resturants I made it a
> point to provide the best of everything. We made everything in house. Mayo,
> dressings, and everything else. I had to send out my Caesar dressing to a
> lab to prove that it didn't have too many bugs in it. I developed a recipe
> that had a mix of lime and lemon juice in it to lower the pH. With the pH
> lowered it became a bacteria wasteland. The lab results came back and my
> recipe was found only to have a trace of bacteria after 16 hours of growth.
> The recipe that the Health Department wanted me to use made with pasterized
> eggs had dangerous levels of bacteria. I had to spend $300 to serve the
> public a better product that was safer.

Chef,

I've been thinking of using a lab myself to test/verify some of
my techniques. Do you have a lab you can recommend?
Good post, BTW.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Monroe, of course... wrote:

> Sing it!
>
> 'Chil-eee's micro-wave ribs
> Chili's micro-wave ribs'
> <basso> 'Smotheredinsauce'

LOL!!! :-)

Master Chef Richard Campbell wrote:

> Dave B.
> I am glad that you are on good terms with your inspector. I had
> problems with many here to the point that I asked that my inspections
> be videoed and two inspectors refused to allow this. I know that they
> all ain't bad but until I get proved wrong in my neck of the woods I
> am not going to change.

It really points out how differently govt. agencies do the same job when
customer service is lacking.

"Monroe, of course..." > wrote:
> In article >, "Duwop"
> > wrote:
>
> > Well, not suprised if she's referring to
> > Chile's.
>
> Sing it!
>
> 'Chil-eee's micro-wave ribs
> Chili's micro-wave ribs'
> <basso> 'Smotheredinsauce'
>
> monroe(or are they boil in bag ribs)

Well, damn, Monroe. I was hopin' fer a MIDI or .wav file with that!

--
Intuitive insights from Nick, Retired in the San Fernando Valley
"Giving violent criminals a government guarantee that their intended
victims are defenseless is bad public policy."
- John Ross, "Unintended Consequences"
If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you can read it in English, THANK A VETERAN!

Dude, you ain't seen nothin' yet! Wait till they come inspect your ovens
and smoking equipment!

Fire suppression. UL. Secondary containment, I, yi,
yi............................................

Bail now and get a job at Tony Roma's!

Spud

"Dave Bugg" <deebuggatcharterdotnet> wrote in message
...
> I spend two days filling out the 10 page application for a food
> establishment permit, including attached photos and specifications of my
> kitchen equipment for cooking, hot holding, chilling and refrigeration. I
> also had to attach a breakdown of my proposed menu products and how they
> were to be cooked, and if they were being purchased pre-cooked or prepared
> in my kitchen. Below is a copy of the letter I received today (scanned
into
> Word and then copied and pasted). I love the last sentence in paragraph
> six.

Most of us have no idea of what you must go through to open a food service
of any kind. Interesting insight here.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"Spud" > wrote in message
. com
> Dude, you ain't seen nothin' yet! Wait till they come inspect your
> ovens and smoking equipment!
>
> Fire suppression. UL. Secondary containment, I, yi,
> yi............................................
>
> Bail now and get a job at Tony Roma's!
>
> Spud

I don't know how tough Snohomish County is compared to Shelan but if you get
over here, Check out Bodacious BBQ in Granite Falls. They do very well on
their inspections and I'm sure they'd be glad to share what they know.

JD

Dave Bugg wrote:
> I spend two days filling out the 10 page application for a food
> establishment permit, including attached photos and specifications of my
> kitchen equipment for cooking, hot holding, chilling and refrigeration. I
> also had to attach a breakdown of my proposed menu products and how they
> were to be cooked, and if they were being purchased pre-cooked or prepared
> in my kitchen. Below is a copy of the letter I received today (scanned into
> Word and then copied and pasted). I love the last sentence in paragraph
> six.
>
> FYI for contextual clarity, I have 150 cu ft of refrigeration capacity AND
> an Alto-Shaam blast chiller capable of cooling 145 pounds of meat from 145F
> to 40F in 90 minutes. This was listed in my application. Apparently it
> wasn't completely comprehended. :-) Guess what I'm going to be doing
> tomorrow?
<snip>
> I hope the above, gives you an idea of what I am looking for with the
> cooking process requested. You may be able to tell from the questions, there
> have been some problems in the past with smoke processes. Your additional
> information will be very helpful to help us picture your product being
> handled safely. Also it is good to have the process in writing in the file
> for reference in the future. Many BBQ places receive product that is already
> cooked and cooled, so I didn't realize the scope of your operation until the
> paperwork was submitted.

I wonder if it's health regulations that force restaurants to serve
under-whelming 'cue. As has been said many times in this forum, the
best 'cue comes from our backyards. No health inspectors there.
--
Aloha,

Nathan Lau
San Jose, CA

#include <std.disclaimer>