Brisket was $2.29/lb, and some good-looking full-sized packer
flats with a nice later of fat was $2.89, so I thought I'd try to
corn some skirt steaks at $1.99/lb (they weigh about 3.5lb ea.)

Anybody have any experience corning thin steaks like this with
Mortons Tender Quick? The directions say to use 1-cup of TQ per
quart of water. That's pretty salty. The package says to brine
for 24 hours, but it doesn't say what size or cut of meat.
Furthermore, I took a jaccard to them, so that should speed up the
cure as well.

Are they gonna be too salty? I'm gonna take a smaller piece out
in the morning and cook up some corned beef home-fries just to see
how they're doing and what I should expect if they brine for even
longer.

I figured (or as they say in Texas - "I'm a fixin") to do one with
cabbage and potatoes and the other rubbed with pepper, coriander
garlic and gently smoked (gently because they're thin). Note that
they're already rubbed with pepper and coriander but most of that
will be rinsed away before cooking.

-sw

Steve Wertz wrote:

> Brisket was $2.29/lb, and some good-looking full-sized packer
> flats with a nice later of fat was $2.89, so I thought I'd try to
> corn some skirt steaks at $1.99/lb (they weigh about 3.5lb ea.)
>
> Anybody have any experience corning thin steaks like this with
> Mortons Tender Quick? The directions say to use 1-cup of TQ per
> quart of water. That's pretty salty. The package says to brine
> for 24 hours, but it doesn't say what size or cut of meat.
> Furthermore, I took a jaccard to them, so that should speed up the
> cure as well.
>
> Are they gonna be too salty? I'm gonna take a smaller piece out
> in the morning and cook up some corned beef home-fries just to see
> how they're doing and what I should expect if they brine for even
> longer.

That's going to be very salty, yes. Are you curing for preservative
effect, i.e. a long period of low temp smoking? If not I'd lower
the TQ, I think.

Here's what I typically use for corned beef/pastrami, and it's
about as much salt as I can comfortably take.

5 q water
10 T pickling salt
1/4 C prague #1
1/2 C minced garlic
1/4 C sugar
1/4 C pickling spice

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 02:00:26 GMT, Reg > wrote:

>> Are they gonna be too salty? I'm gonna take a smaller piece out
>> in the morning and cook up some corned beef home-fries just to see
>> how they're doing and what I should expect if they brine for even
>> longer.
>
>That's going to be very salty, yes. Are you curing for preservative
>effect, i.e. a long period of low temp smoking? If not I'd lower
>the TQ, I think.

Just doing it to make corned beef, not corned jerky - although
that *is* an interesting idea... hrmmm.

Afetr about 3 hours of wondering how hard I'd be kicking myself
tomorrow, I dumped out all the liquid (not even 2 of 4 cups left)
and replaced it with water. sho0ok the bag some more and it seems
on par with a regular brine now. Hopefully this will even-out the
saltiness that it already soaked up.

I wonder why the package directions are so extreme? What kind and
size of meat are they thinking of?

Is there any benefit of curing a whole turkey breast with TQ if
you just want to smoke and slice it for sandwiches ?


>Here's what I typically use for corned beef/pastrami, and it's
>about as much salt as I can comfortably take.
>
>5 q water
>10 T pickling salt
>1/4 C prague #1
>1/2 C minced garlic
>1/4 C sugar
>1/4 C pickling spice

Steve Wertz wrote:

> Just doing it to make corned beef, not corned jerky - although
> that *is* an interesting idea... hrmmm.

I asked in case you were planning one of the more unconventional
methods that might require a cure, other than jerky that is. Like
cold smoking before grilling, etc. Ya never know... you've been
known to be on the cutting edge

> Afetr about 3 hours of wondering how hard I'd be kicking myself
> tomorrow, I dumped out all the liquid (not even 2 of 4 cups left)
> and replaced it with water. sho0ok the bag some more and it seems
> on par with a regular brine now. Hopefully this will even-out the
> saltiness that it already soaked up.

You did the right thing. Hopefully the salt will equalize a bit and
it won't end up too strong. You had the right idea with cutting off a
piece, cooking it up and tasting it.

> I wonder why the package directions are so extreme? What kind and
> size of meat are they thinking of?

It's too much salt, and too much nitrite. Don't know why they'd
do that. Their curing book is much more intelligently written than
their label.

> Is there any benefit of curing a whole turkey breast with TQ if
> you just want to smoke and slice it for sandwiches ?

Definitely. The nitrite cure changes it to more of a deli meat
kind of character, sort of a "hammy" flavor, and pinkish colored.
I like to do turkey breasts with it when I'm going to serve it cold
for sandwiches. When I serve it hot I just use a regular brine,
no nitrite.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

On 18-Apr-2004, Steve Wertz > wrote:
<snip>
> I wonder why the package directions are so extreme? What kind and
> size of meat are they thinking of?
>
> Is there any benefit of curing a whole turkey breast with TQ if
> you just want to smoke and slice it for sandwiches ?
<snip some more>

Steve, it sounds like you're fairly serious about preserving/curing
meat. I definitely encourage your to go to http://www.sausagemaker.com/
(I know, you're not trying to make sausage, but this guy is the
guru on curing meat in addition to being the expert on sausage making. His
book, which I bought, is titled, "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing"
I'm only about 1/4 into the book, but it sure explodes a lot of myths and
illuminates a lot of dangers that we never heard of. He'll tell you more
about
chemicals then you're ever going to want to hear.

> Steve Wertz wrote:

>I wonder why the package directions are so extreme? What kind and
>size of meat are they thinking of?

Larger cuts of meat than you are presently dealing with. TQ is meant to cure
meat for long, slow smoking. I've had great sucess with it, but I prefer to use
it as a dry cure instead of a brine. I've tried both, but the dry application
has always worked best for me. Skirt steak could be cured and smoked, I
suppose, but I would cut way back on the amount of TQ, and the curing time. 1 C
of TQ to 1Q of water for 24 hours will probably result in something you won't
want to eat.

>Is there any benefit of curing a whole turkey breast with TQ if
>you just want to smoke and slice it for sandwiches ?

No. Unless you want turkey "ham".

Jim
--
Life is what happens while you're making plans... At the end of a long day's
life. Kevin Gilbert ( R.I.P )

On 18 Apr 2004 06:13:56 GMT, tose (Jim) wrote:

>> Steve Wertz wrote:
>
>>I wonder why the package directions are so extreme? What kind and
>>size of meat are they thinking of?
>
>Larger cuts of meat than you are presently dealing with. TQ is meant to cure
>meat for long, slow smoking.

They recommend 4-6 hours for the dry-curing method (at 1TBS per
pound). You can't possibly expect a whole top-sirloin or brisket
to absorb either a dry or wet cure in that short amount of time
using either method. At least not from what I understand.

-sw

> Steve Wertz wrote:

>They recommend 4-6 hours for the dry-curing method (at 1TBS per
>pound). You can't possibly expect a whole top-sirloin or brisket
>to absorb either a dry or wet cure in that short amount of time
>using either method. At least not from what I understand.
>

Hmm, you're right, that's what the package says. And they refer to small cuts
of meat.
So, 4-6 hrs. would probably work for a cut like skirt steak.
I use TQ dry on cuts like brisket flats, top round, ( pastrami ) and pork loin
( Canadian bacon )
I usually cure for 7-10 days, depending on the size of the cut, and then slow
smoke.
Why one would want to cure "pork chops, spareribs, chicken" as the package
suggests is beyond me.
Oh well , different strokes and all that.

Jim

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:21:43 -0500, Steve Wertz
> wrote:

>Afetr about 3 hours of wondering how hard I'd be kicking myself
>tomorrow, I dumped out all the liquid (not even 2 of 4 cups left)
>and replaced it with water. sho0ok the bag some more and it seems
>on par with a regular brine now. Hopefully this will even-out the
>saltiness that it already soaked up.

Wow - This shit is awesome. I fried up a little piece this
morning and it's just about perfect. Needs a good rinsing, still
a little salty, but damn! Corned beef cured in 18hours and
pastrami in another 2-3 hours. No need to wait 7 days to cure a
brisket and another 16 hours to smoke it, this stuff is tender and
perfect already.

I don't know how much of the tenderness I can attribute to the
cure since I also jaccard-ized it. I probably could have done
without the latter.

If I can find bottom sirloin flap meat at a reasonable price, that
oughta work just as well. I might try one of those full size
brisket flats too - they just have one layer of the point cut off
and most of the fat on the underside still attached.

-sw

Steve Wertz wrote:

> Wow - This shit is awesome. I fried up a little piece this
> morning and it's just about perfect. Needs a good rinsing, still
> a little salty, but damn! Corned beef cured in 18hours and
> pastrami in another 2-3 hours. No need to wait 7 days to cure a
> brisket and another 16 hours to smoke it, this stuff is tender and
> perfect already.

Sounds great, Steve.

I think part of the reason for the confusion over when and how
to use nitrite cures is the fact that there are two distinct
applications for them, one is for preservation and one is for
flavor. It's sometimes hard to tell from a recipe alone which
of these objectives the author is trying to accomplish. Some
recipes make me think the author wasn't really sure himself.
The very bad advice on the TQ package doesn't help.

My solution to this was to go through all the main recipes,
cuts of meat, etc, and see how/if a nitrite cure fits in.

When something needs a preservation cure, i.e. it will spend
more than 3 hours in danger zone, it gets at least a partial
nitrite cure. For poultry, I like it either way, depending. I
like using cured butts for buckboard bacon but I also like them
without cure for pulled pork. I like pork loin cured (canadian
bacon) but I don't like pork tenderloin cured. At all. It
turns a finely textured, multi-flavored piece of meat into
one dimensional lunch meat.

It's all quite subjective in the end and experimentation
is key.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:34:15 GMT, Reg > wrote:

>I think part of the reason for the confusion over when and how
>to use nitrite cures is the fact that there are two distinct
>applications for them, one is for preservation and one is for
>flavor. It's sometimes hard to tell from a recipe alone which
>of these objectives the author is trying to accomplish. Some
>recipes make me think the author wasn't really sure himself.
>The very bad advice on the TQ package doesn't help.

I think even the recommended dosage was too much for even
preservation effects. The package sure implies smaller cut of
meat cooked in a traditional fashion.

I'll be experimenting with this stuff a little more. Tomorrow
will be a whole chicken, spatchcocked, brined and grilled.
I'm making corned beef, cabbage potatoes now. The pastrami turned
out fantastic.

Does TQ actually tenderize the meat, or did my jaccard do all
that?

Would a 2-day brine (3/4cup TQ per gallon) cure a 2" thick brisket
flat?

Anybody remember that site about making pastrami? It had pictures
of an incomplete curing of brisket, and I think he used TQ. I had
it bookmarked, but on another computer.

-sw

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:34:15 GMT, Reg > wrote:
>
> >I think part of the reason for the confusion over when and how
> >to use nitrite cures is the fact that there are two distinct
> >applications for them, one is for preservation and one is for
> >flavor. It's sometimes hard to tell from a recipe alone which
> >of these objectives the author is trying to accomplish. Some
> >recipes make me think the author wasn't really sure himself.
> >The very bad advice on the TQ package doesn't help.
>
> I think even the recommended dosage was too much for even
> preservation effects. The package sure implies smaller cut of
> meat cooked in a traditional fashion.
>
> I'll be experimenting with this stuff a little more. Tomorrow
> will be a whole chicken, spatchcocked, brined and grilled.
> I'm making corned beef, cabbage potatoes now. The pastrami turned
> out fantastic.
>
> Does TQ actually tenderize the meat, or did my jaccard do all
> that?
>
> Would a 2-day brine (3/4cup TQ per gallon) cure a 2" thick brisket
> flat?
>
> Anybody remember that site about making pastrami? It had pictures
> of an incomplete curing of brisket, and I think he used TQ. I had
> it bookmarked, but on another computer.
>
> -sw

Here it is.
Bill

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/pastrami.html

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:39:13 GMT, "Bill & Susan"
> wrote:

>"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...

>> Anybody remember that site about making pastrami? It had pictures
>> of an incomplete curing of brisket, and I think he used TQ. I had
>> it bookmarked, but on another computer.
>
>Here it is
>Bill.
>http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/pastrami.html

That was it. Thanks Susan. And don't call be Bill, OK?

-sw

Steve Wertz wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:34:15 GMT, Reg > wrote:
>
>> I think part of the reason for the confusion over when and how
>> to use nitrite cures is the fact that there are two distinct
>> applications for them, one is for preservation and one is for
>> flavor. It's sometimes hard to tell from a recipe alone which
>> of these objectives the author is trying to accomplish. Some
>> recipes make me think the author wasn't really sure himself.
>> The very bad advice on the TQ package doesn't help.
>
> I think even the recommended dosage was too much for even
> preservation effects. The package sure implies smaller cut of
> meat cooked in a traditional fashion.
>
> I'll be experimenting with this stuff a little more. Tomorrow
> will be a whole chicken, spatchcocked, brined and grilled.
> I'm making corned beef, cabbage potatoes now. The pastrami turned
> out fantastic.
>
> Does TQ actually tenderize the meat, or did my jaccard do all
> that?
>
> Would a 2-day brine (3/4cup TQ per gallon) cure a 2" thick brisket
> flat?
>
> Anybody remember that site about making pastrami? It had pictures
> of an incomplete curing of brisket, and I think he used TQ. I had
> it bookmarked, but on another computer.
>
> -sw

Steve,

Despite the name, Tender Quick does not tenderize. Your Jaccard did the
job.

Jack Curry

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:39:13 GMT, "Bill & Susan"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> Anybody remember that site about making pastrami? It had pictures
> >> of an incomplete curing of brisket, and I think he used TQ. I had
> >> it bookmarked, but on another computer.
> >
> >Here it is
> >Bill.
> >http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/pastrami.html
>
> That was it. Thanks Susan. And don't call be Bill, OK?
>
> -sw
OK!
Bill

In article >,
Jack Curry <Jack-Curry deletethis @cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Despite the name, Tender Quick does not tenderize. Your
>Jaccard did the job.

And it probably aided in getting the brine into the meat,
assuming you Jaccardized it before putting it in the
brine.

You might speed it up further by vacuum sealing it with
the brine (in a container that would keep the brine from
being sucked in by the vacuum).


Chuck Demas

--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
| \___/ | http://world.std.com/~cpd

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:07:23 -0500, Steve Wertz
> wrote:

>jaccard
what's this mean?

((.)) '))
((((((((
))(/)((

what is the difference between corned beef & pastrami? i've never
been sure even when eating it!

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:23:16 -0500, Steve Wertz
> wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:21:43 -0500, Steve Wertz
> wrote:
>
>>Afetr about 3 hours of wondering how hard I'd be kicking myself
>>tomorrow, I dumped out all the liquid (not even 2 of 4 cups left)
>>and replaced it with water. sho0ok the bag some more and it seems
>>on par with a regular brine now. Hopefully this will even-out the
>>saltiness that it already soaked up.
>
>Wow - This shit is awesome. I fried up a little piece this
>morning and it's just about perfect. Needs a good rinsing, still
>a little salty, but damn! Corned beef cured in 18hours and
>pastrami in another 2-3 hours. No need to wait 7 days to cure a
>brisket and another 16 hours to smoke it, this stuff is tender and
>perfect already.
>
>I don't know how much of the tenderness I can attribute to the
>cure since I also jaccard-ized it. I probably could have done
>without the latter.
>
>If I can find bottom sirloin flap meat at a reasonable price, that
>oughta work just as well. I might try one of those full size
>brisket flats too - they just have one layer of the point cut off
>and most of the fat on the underside still attached.
>
>-sw


((.)) '))
((((((((
))(/)((

In article >,
Judy Cosler > wrote:
>what is the difference between corned beef & pastrami? i've never
>been sure even when eating it!

Taste and fat content, also they usually come from different
cuts of meat.

Different spices too, and corned beef is usually boiled, whereas
pastrami isn't.

Pastrami is smoked too.


Chuck Demas

--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
| \___/ | http://world.std.com/~cpd

Steve Wertz wrote:

> I think even the recommended dosage was too much for even
> preservation effects. The package sure implies smaller cut of
> meat cooked in a traditional fashion.
>

There's no question that the instructions on the TQ package
specify too much. Using their figure of 4 C of TQ per gallon
of water, a one pound piece of meat in a gallon of brine would end
up with a nitrite content of over 800 parts per million once equilibrium
is reached. The allowable limit for commercial products in the US
is 200 PPM, so that makes you wonder what they were thinking when
they recommended this.

I rarely use TQ given the fact that prague powder is so much
more versatile, but I wrote to Morton anyway about this to see what
they have to say about it.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:21:48 -0400, Judy Cosler
> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:07:23 -0500, Steve Wertz
> wrote:
>
>>jaccard
>what's this mean?

It's a kitchen gadget--a meat tenderizer.

http://www.kitchen-brand.com/Jaccard...-Kitchen-1.asp

http://www.americangrassfedbeef.com/...rizer-tips.asp

>((.)) '))
> ((((((((
> ))(/)((

What's this mean?

--
Kevin S. Wilson
Tech Writer at a university somewhere in Idaho
"Who put these fingerprints on my imagination?"

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:05:11 GMT, Reg > wrote:

>I rarely use TQ given the fact that prague powder is so much
>more versatile, but I wrote to Morton anyway about this to see what
>they have to say about it.

I was going to do the same, so let me know what you find out. I
usually get some pretty lame answers when I mail (or even call)
food products customer service droids.

Kingsford Lighter Fluid for Example:

Me: It says here to use 17 ounces of fluid for each pound of
briquettes. I don't think that's right.

Them: My can doesn't say that.

Me: What does your bottle say?

Them: It doesn't say anything about how much to use.

Me: How much am I really supposed to use, then?

Them: I don't know. Can I have your name and address?

Me: So you can call the fire department for me when I use a
half-gallon of lighter fluid on 4lbs of charcoal?

They didn't want to acknowledge or seem to care that this was way
too much fluid to use.

-sw