Hello all,
Would it be wise for a total newbie acquiring his first set of
winemaking supplies to purchase, say, four one-gallon glass jugs and
make small experimental batches until I have a better idea what I'm
doing, or should I dive right in and go with the more standard 5 gal .
carboy right away? Looks like it would be about the same price either
way.

Five gallons seems like alot of potentially mediocre product.

I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.

go for the 5 mr.moody.i myself been into just a short time.but you
found some of the greatest wine people rite here.every thing i had a
question or a problem was solved that same day .i would say your in
good hands.so go for the the 5!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. Moody wrote:
> Hello all,
> Would it be wise for a total newbie acquiring his first set of
> winemaking supplies to purchase, say, four one-gallon glass jugs and
> make small experimental batches until I have a better idea what I'm
> doing, or should I dive right in and go with the more standard 5 gal .
> carboy right away? Looks like it would be about the same price either
> way.
>
> Five gallons seems like alot of potentially mediocre product.
>
> I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.


I use a variety of different carboys. some 4 liter wine jugs (the
cheap carlo rossi stuff) for really experimental things.

If they have a reasonable expectation of tasting good i make 3 gallon
batchs, which will give you much more flexibility on tasting during
bottle aging.

just so you know, wine kits usually come in 6 gallon batch sizes.

Get both! one can never have too many vessels. Don't you know any ole winos
who'll donate an old Gallo jug to your cause? the promise of a little
"homemade" is a strong allure! I'd say: buy the 5, try to scam some 1's and
maybe an old growler (1/2 gals) or two; then start saving for a barrel.
You'll want one before you know it. We try not to look upon our endeavors
as potentially mediocre, but rather , excuses to drink up the evidence ASAP!
;>)
"Droopy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mr. Moody wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> Would it be wise for a total newbie acquiring his first set of
>> winemaking supplies to purchase, say, four one-gallon glass jugs and
>> make small experimental batches until I have a better idea what I'm
>> doing, or should I dive right in and go with the more standard 5 gal .
>> carboy right away? Looks like it would be about the same price either
>> way.
>>
>> Five gallons seems like alot of potentially mediocre product.
>>
>> I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.
>
>
> I use a variety of different carboys. some 4 liter wine jugs (the
> cheap carlo rossi stuff) for really experimental things.
>
> If they have a reasonable expectation of tasting good i make 3 gallon
> batchs, which will give you much more flexibility on tasting during
> bottle aging.
>
> just so you know, wine kits usually come in 6 gallon batch sizes.
>

I would encourage you to go bigger than 1-gallon as well. I know there
are winemakers (esp. fruit winemakers) that normally make 1-gallon
batches, and that initially seems like a reasonable way to test
different fruits, proportions, techniques, etc. On the other hand,
though, you normally aren't investing a lot of money in raw ingredients
(esp. for fruit wines), but they will often take a year or two to
really be drinkable. My theory (at least for most people) is that time
is more valuable than the potential money savings. With a 1-gallon
batch, you'd be lucky to get five bottles at the end of the process;
four is more likely. At the end of a year or two, you might have a
bottle left; if it turns out to be really great, you will be
disappointed that you don't have any more. My personal rule of thumb
is that I don't make anything less than 3 gallons in size; that makes
at least a full case of something, plus a couple of bottles for
occasional quality assurance purposes. :-)

Doug

When I started out, I faced the same decision you did. I went with
1-gallon jugs, and I don't regret it. Cost, more possibilities to
experiment, and more practice are all advantages of this rout.

I was able to buy a gallon apple of apple juice in a glass jug at
Trader Joe's for about the same price as an empty 1-gallon jug at the
homebrew store, so you could say my first wine was "free" - and it was
a very nice wine.

You can also experiment more. I'm a tinkerer, so that was a big deal
for me. Many recipes call for 1/4 tsp/Gallon of tannin. Ever wonder
what it would taste like if you didn't add any? Or if you added 1/2
tsp? Make three 1-gallon batches and find out.

Finally, for the same volume of wine, you end up syphoning, measuring,
etc about five times as much. When you're just starting out, this means
you get more practice. Speaking as someone who found himself sitting on
the kitchen floor, barefoot and in shorts, amongst broken glass and a
gallon of fermenting wine, I say you'll need that practice. Of course,
this extra practice will becomes extra work at some point. Still most
people who stay with the hobby add to their collection of containers
and this would be the perfect time get some 5-gallon carboys.

Erroll

A lot of the kits are 6 gal, so that might be better than a 5 gal

"Mr. Moody" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello all,
> Would it be wise for a total newbie acquiring his first set of
> winemaking supplies to purchase, say, four one-gallon glass jugs and
> make small experimental batches until I have a better idea what I'm
> doing, or should I dive right in and go with the more standard 5 gal .
> carboy right away? Looks like it would be about the same price either
> way.
>
> Five gallons seems like alot of potentially mediocre product.
>
> I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.
>

Hello,
I started with one gallon carboys and I've never gone bigger. I've been
making wine for almost 5 years, and I make only fruit, veggie, and herb
wines. You can always go bigger once you get the hang of things and once you
figure out what you like. Thing is...you might think you like the taste of a
particular fruit wine, but then after you make it...you find out you don't.
Now you've 25 bottles of something you don't like, rather than 5 bottles. If
for some reason a batch goes bad, and it can happen even to the best of us,
throwing away 5 gallons (would be hard for me), rather than 1 gallon.
It took me about 2 batches of wine per fruit to find out what I liked.
The first batch was "what I thought I would like" and the second batch
"what I actually liked". And yes you do have to wait a fair amount of time
for fruits and veggies to mature, but the important thing here is to
alternate a batch which takes a lot of aging, and then make your next batch
one that can be drank early. This way, while you're waiting for a Blackberry
wine to mature, you can try your Strawberry wine, or fruit juice wines.
And yes, it does take awhile to build your wine stock up (on 1 gallon
batches) so you can walk down to your wine racks to pick whatever you like
out, but hopefully you're always trying something new each year to surprise
yourself in a few years.
Good-luck with whatever you try.
Darlene
Wisconsin


"Mr. Moody" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello all,
> Would it be wise for a total newbie acquiring his first set of
> winemaking supplies to purchase, say, four one-gallon glass jugs and
> make small experimental batches until I have a better idea what I'm
> doing, or should I dive right in and go with the more standard 5 gal .
> carboy right away? Looks like it would be about the same price either
> way.
>
> Five gallons seems like alot of potentially mediocre product.
>
> I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.
>

It does make a difference, in a few ways. Fruit wines lend themselves
to smaller batch sizes. As others have said though, smaller is not
necessarily better. If you are very happy with the results you won't
get a lot of return on the effort and there is a pretty good chance you
will be happy with the results.

To be honest wine from grapes makes itself, if you stay out of it's way
and follow a few simple rules the chances of you making a mediocre
batch are next to nothing.

Fruit wines, on the other hand have more variability built into them.
The ripeness of the fruit and the predominant acid are two of the major
ones. That said, Jack Keller has a website full of fruit wine making
recipes that are very well spoken of. I would not buy 1 gallon
carboys, any restaurant in your town probably has a house brand of wine
they go through quickly so a few phone calls might get you all you need
there.

I usually steer beginners to wine made from grape juice, it's (for lack
of a better term) idiot proof. Welches Niagara is well spoken of; it's
also a good blending stock for many fruit wines.

This year I made 17 gallons of fresh strawberry wine, I have about 4
gallons left. It was pretty popular.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't worry about making mediocre
wine; whether you make one gallon or 50 the process is the same and the
rules are too, and they are easy to understand. You are not going to
make mediocre wine if you ask questions of this group when you are
unsure of the next step. Everyone here was a newbie at some point,
there are no stupid questions.

Joe



> I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.

I agree with Erroll and Dar V. It's good to start out with one or more
1-gallon carboys. It gives you a lot of flexibility to make smaller
batches or to experiment. And you can always add more if you want to
make larger batches.

However, if you make 1-4 gallons of wine in a 5-gallon carboy, you run
the risk of unnecessary spoilage, since the jug now contains at least a
gallon of air.

I think of the carboys in terms of aggregate capacity. If a wine batch
gets separated into 2,3,4 or 5 jugs, that's fine to me because they'll
all get reunited at bottling.

I WILL SAY THIS: If you just plan on making kits and don't ever plan on
making any smaller batches, a 5- or 6-gallon carboy is what you need
(along with a 7-8 gallon primary fermenter). Practically all of the
kits are designed for 5- or 6-gallon carboys.

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> To be honest wine from grapes makes itself, if you stay out of it's way
> and follow a few simple rules the chances of you making a mediocre
> batch are next to nothing.
>
> Fruit wines, on the other hand have more variability built into them.
> The ripeness of the fruit and the predominant acid are two of the major
> ones. That said, Jack Keller has a website full of fruit wine making
> recipes that are very well spoken of.
>
> Joe

I agree.

Frederick

"Mr. Moody" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello all,
> Would it be wise for a total newbie acquiring his first set of
> winemaking supplies to purchase, say, four one-gallon glass jugs and
> make small experimental batches until I have a better idea what I'm
> doing, or should I dive right in and go with the more standard 5 gal .
> carboy right away? Looks like it would be about the same price either
> way.
>
> Five gallons seems like alot of potentially mediocre product.
>
> I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.
>

Hi Mr. Moody

5 Gal. carboys are heavy and hard to handle. If you have a little extra
space, you can avoid using them altogether.

For small batches I would recommend the following. Get a 2 1/2 or 3
gallon primary. I use and old diaper pail with close fitting (but not air
tight) lid. (do they still sell those things ??) Scrounge some 4 liter
wine
jugs _and_ some 1 gallon jugs. Use these as follows:

Start primary at 4 1/4 liters. This allows you to transfer (rack) to
secondary
4 liter jug while leaving behind most of the lees. When the wine has
cleared, rack to a 1 gallon jug, again leaving behind the lees and there is
no need to top up.

For larger batches. Get a 9 or 10 gallon primary. Buy _both_ 2.8 gallon
_and_ 3 gallon carboys. Start primary at 6 1/4 gallons (6.5 ??). Rack
into the 3 gallon carboys leaving behind the gross lees. When clear, rack
into 2.8 gallon carboys. Again, no need to top up. HTH

Frederick

On 3/10/2006 12:20 PM, Mr. Moody wrote:
> Hello all,
> Would it be wise for a total newbie acquiring his first set of
> winemaking supplies to purchase, say, four one-gallon glass jugs and
> make small experimental batches until I have a better idea what I'm
> doing, or should I dive right in and go with the more standard 5 gal .
> carboy right away? Looks like it would be about the same price either
> way.
>
> Five gallons seems like alot of potentially mediocre product.
>
> I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.
>

Mr. Moody,

You have no doubt read the many various and valid opinions presented in
response to the question you have posed to the group at large. I'll
make my own contribution. As a person who started making beer, but very
quickly moved to almost exclusive mead and wine production (as a
qualifier, I made my first beer in over three years last Sunday), I
found that the 5 gallon size my beer equipment was set up for was a
wonderful size for a mead or a wine. The overriding reason why:

A one gallon batch is simply more difficult to make.
I need to leave enough headroom for krausen no matter what the fermenter
size is, and then after fermentation I need to find a means to top off.
With one gallon batches I have tried making a stronger batch, counting
on topping off with water to bring the gravity back into style, but this
is a hit or miss proposition. With a five+ gallon batch I am able to
target my OG and FG much more precisely, and a small amount of topping
off has little impact on the batch as a whole.
Racking a one gallon batch is less efficient than racking a 5+ gallon
carboy. I lose more volume, percentage wise, with a one gallon batch
than I do with a five+ gallon batch.
A five gallon+ batch is more easy to protect from the perils of oxygen
than is a one gallon batch. I typically add 1/4 Tsp. K-metabisulfite
per 5 gallons at each racking. Measuring 1/4 Tsp is fairly trivial, but
measuring 1/5 of 1/4 Tsp is less trivial.
And, if I made the best of all possible wines, and it was a one gallon
batch, I would forever regret not having made a five+ gallon batch. And
replicating a one gallon batch in a five+ gallon size is far less
trivial than replicating a favored five+ gallon batch.

I _have_ made a few one gallon batches of mead. And a few three gallon
batches, since I have acquired 2 three gallon carboys. But these have
all been fairly experimental batches, where I have not been confident of
the outcome. This is for me the entire purpose of a smaller batch size.
It gives me the opportunity to try something radical, experimental, or
downright odd. If it works, then I can make a five+ gallon batch, and
if not I can move on without having wasted a large investment in
ingredients. But, and again for me, any batch that is worth making is
worth making at the five+ gallon level. I have never regretted making a
batch of mead or wine at a volume of 5+ gallons, while I have
occasionally regretted making a one gallon batch.


Cheers,
Ken Taborek

> A five gallon+ batch is more easy to protect from the perils of oxygen
> than is a one gallon batch. I typically add 1/4 Tsp. K-metabisulfite
> per 5 gallons at each racking. Measuring 1/4 Tsp is fairly trivial, but
> measuring 1/5 of 1/4 Tsp is less trivial.

Just a suggestion on this - if you make a solution in small amount of
water, and have a pipette or syringe, you can get 1/5 of 1/4 tsp pretty
easily. And the same approach applies if you want to use less than 1/4
tsp for some rackings.

Pp

"Mr. Moody" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello all,
> Would it be wise for a total newbie acquiring his first set of
> winemaking supplies to purchase, say, four one-gallon glass jugs and
> make small experimental batches until I have a better idea what I'm
> doing, or should I dive right in and go with the more standard 5 gal .
> carboy right away? Looks like it would be about the same price either
> way.
>
> Five gallons seems like alot of potentially mediocre product.
>
> I planning to make fruit wines, if that makes any difference.
>
>

A little different interpretation on this. If you are really are a newbie
who has never made wine before, I recommend that you start off making a kit
rather than going with fresh fruit. The kits are quite good and will step
you through the process very nicely. They are a great way to learn. Also,
some of the kits mature very quickly so you get to try your product in a
reasonable time rather than waiting a year or to for it to mature. After
making a kit or two you can move easily to the fruit of your choice with
confidence.

If you want something that relates to fruit you might try one of the Island
Mist kits. The Peach/Apricot/Chardonnay in nice and is ready to drink in
about 2 months. Another to consider is something like Spagnol's
Gewürztraminer though it is a true grape wine in a German style but it is
very nice in about 3 months.

Now, if you are making a kit, you probably want a 6 gal. carboy.
Just some thoughts.

Ray

Ray Calvert wrote:
> Now, if you are making a kit, you probably want a 6 gal. carboy.
> Just some thoughts.



I have been toying with the idea of getting a kit wine and making only
half and saving the other half to use as grape concentrate additions
for fruit wines that use them as body enhancers. I am guessing that
that is not a cheaper way of doing it than just buying the half liter
bottles of concentrate, and it is tough to know if they are at the same
concentration level. Also storing the concentrate until use would take
some thought and engineering. But it would give you an idea of the
varietal that you are using (the concentrate in bottles are just a
blend). I have noticed a slight foxiness to a couple wines I have made
using concord concentrates from the grocery store that I would like to
get around in the future.

So in that case...a 3 gallong carboy could still work. If I could work
out the specifics it might be a viable option to new winemakers....I am
guessing that you would have to freeze the remainder....and it would
take a while to use up. So there are some definate cons.

Droopy wrote:
>
> I have been toying with the idea of getting a kit wine and making only
> half and saving the other half to use as grape concentrate additions
> for fruit wines that use them as body enhancers.

...snipped

It may be easier just to make the whole kit and then use the wine when
you make the fruit wine. You could either blend after the fruit wine is
made or use some wine instead of water when starting the fruit wine.

If the latter, personally, I would get the yeast going in the fruit
wine before adding the kit wine to reduce the chance of oxidizing. You
would also have to take the aclohol content of the wine into account
when calculating sugar additions to the fruit wine.


Andy

Basically I agree with Andy. Once you open it you should use it right away.
Also with kits, you generally get what you pay for. A higher price kit will
maker very nice wine. A medium price kit will make mediocre wine. And so
forth. Also all the additives are set for making a whole batch.

When mixing grape concentrate with fruit, you can improve the fruit but the
fruit will generally dominate and the high price for the better kits
probably do not mater. For blending with fruit, the cheaper tinned
concentrate will probably do just fine. In fact, for making light wine
fruit wines (apple, peach, etc.), one of the best grape concentrates to add
is Welch's frozen Niagara concentrate. It blends very nicely with fruits
and makes a very nice wine on it's own. Very cheap. See Jack Keller's site
for frozen fruit recipes.

As far as carboy size, even when making a kit, you can make it in smaller
carboy's. Just use several of them. When you rack, do all of them at one
time and rack into a common bucket so they blend and then put them back into
as many carboys as you need. It is just convenient to use one big carboy.
An advantage of using multiple carboys, especially after the initial
fermentation, is that you can bottle part of it early and leave the rest for
longer bulk aging.

Ray

"JEP62" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Droopy wrote:
>>
>> I have been toying with the idea of getting a kit wine and making only
>> half and saving the other half to use as grape concentrate additions
>> for fruit wines that use them as body enhancers.
>
> ..snipped
>
> It may be easier just to make the whole kit and then use the wine when
> you make the fruit wine. You could either blend after the fruit wine is
> made or use some wine instead of water when starting the fruit wine.
>
> If the latter, personally, I would get the yeast going in the fruit
> wine before adding the kit wine to reduce the chance of oxidizing. You
> would also have to take the aclohol content of the wine into account
> when calculating sugar additions to the fruit wine.
>
>
> Andy
>
>

Ray Calvert wrote:
> fact, for making light wine
> fruit wines (apple, peach, etc.), one of the best grape concentrates to add
> is Welch's frozen Niagara concentrate. It blends very nicely with fruits
> and makes a very nice wine on it's own. Very cheap. See Jack Keller's site
> for frozen fruit recipes.

Many of my fruit wine recipes call for non labrusca white grape
concentrate. Nearly of my reds do as well. I hardly ever make a wine
sewwter than semi-sec and even in the lower amounts some foxiness does
show through in certain wines.

There are exceptions, I do like sweeter welches jug wines. They are
like a bad habit that I still have from my teenage years drinking
purple passion.