I made a really stupid mistake today when starting my 3rd batch of blueberry
wine. I forgot to drain the sanitizing solution (package of .8% Cl mixed
with 1.5 gallons of hot water) from the primary fermenter before I added
everything. It didn't hit me what had happened until I found that I was at
the 6 gallon mark and had only added 4.5 gallons of water/sugar/honey. I've
added no chemicals just yet. The fruit and sugar is now wasted, but my wife
thinks that if we just let it alone uncovered the chlorine will leach out
like it does in our pool. Obviously this will add some unwated taste, but
is it safe to do this? Will it inhibit anything further down the
fermenation cycle?

She hesitated to throw it away because of the cost, but if it's going to
make us sick, or won't work well, then the $75 is down the drain. And I'm
OK with that, if that's how it needs to be.

Thoughts?

Throw it away, man!

Toss it


--

Home of the
MOON RIVER BREWERY
and
DELANCO VINEYARDS



"TRex" > wrote in message
. ..
>I made a really stupid mistake today when starting my 3rd batch of
>blueberry wine. I forgot to drain the sanitizing solution (package of .8%
>Cl mixed with 1.5 gallons of hot water) from the primary fermenter before I
>added everything. It didn't hit me what had happened until I found that I
>was at the 6 gallon mark and had only added 4.5 gallons of
>water/sugar/honey. I've added no chemicals just yet. The fruit and sugar
>is now wasted, but my wife thinks that if we just let it alone uncovered
>the chlorine will leach out like it does in our pool. Obviously this will
>add some unwated taste, but is it safe to do this? Will it inhibit
>anything further down the fermenation cycle?
>
> She hesitated to throw it away because of the cost, but if it's going to
> make us sick, or won't work well, then the $75 is down the drain. And I'm
> OK with that, if that's how it needs to be.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>

"TRex" > wrote:

> I made a really stupid mistake today when starting my 3rd batch of
> blueberry wine. I forgot to drain the sanitizing solution (package
> of .8% Cl mixed with 1.5 gallons of hot water) from the primary
> fermenter before I added everything. It didn't hit me what had
> happened until I found that I was at the 6 gallon mark and had only
> added 4.5 gallons of water/sugar/honey. I've added no chemicals
> just yet. The fruit and sugar is now wasted, but my wife thinks
> that if we just let it alone uncovered the chlorine will leach out
> like it does in our pool. Obviously this will add some unwanted
> taste, but is it safe to do this? Will it inhibit anything further
> down the fermenation cycle?
>
> She hesitated to throw it away because of the cost, but if it's
> going to make us sick, or won't work well, then the $75 is down the
> drain. And I'm OK with that, if that's how it needs to be.
>
> Thoughts?

Listen to your wife as long as she agrees to be the taste tester.
And serve it to your in-laws to see what happens before you drink
any yourself. If your in-laws get sick, send me a bottle or two.

More seriously I suggest you call the manufacturer to determine
the health effects of the contents of the sanitizer.

Dick

It's done for, toss it.

The chlorine has permanently reacted with the molecules of the fruit &
honey, and will never evaporate or dissipate. In a pool, much of the
chlorine exists as a dissolved gas and can escape into the air, but in
your batch, there was a lot of things for it to combine with.
--
Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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Wine can recover from almost anything. Very forgiving. But not Clorox. If
you use Clorox to clean and sterilize things you should not only toss it and
rinse thoroughly, but you should let it dry completely to get rid of the
last traces of Clorox. Even at levels of parts per trillion, it can ruin
wine. Traces left in cork has ruined many commercial wines.

Ray

"TRex" > wrote in message
. ..
>I made a really stupid mistake today when starting my 3rd batch of
>blueberry wine. I forgot to drain the sanitizing solution (package of .8%
>Cl mixed with 1.5 gallons of hot water) from the primary fermenter before I
>added everything. It didn't hit me what had happened until I found that I
>was at the 6 gallon mark and had only added 4.5 gallons of
>water/sugar/honey. I've added no chemicals just yet. The fruit and sugar
>is now wasted, but my wife thinks that if we just let it alone uncovered
>the chlorine will leach out like it does in our pool. Obviously this will
>add some unwated taste, but is it safe to do this? Will it inhibit
>anything further down the fermenation cycle?
>
> She hesitated to throw it away because of the cost, but if it's going to
> make us sick, or won't work well, then the $75 is down the drain. And I'm
> OK with that, if that's how it needs to be.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
>

Ray Calvert > wrote:

> Wine can recover from almost anything. Very forgiving. But not
> Clorox. If you use Clorox to clean and sterilize things you
> should not only toss it and rinse thoroughly, but you should let
> it dry completely to get rid of the last traces of Clorox. Even
> at levels of parts per trillion, it can ruin wine. Traces left
> in cork has ruined many commercial wines.

You are 100% correct with regards to Clorox. However, TRex is
referring to chlorine. (see below)


> "TRex" > wrote:

>> I made a really stupid mistake today when starting my 3rd batch of
>> blueberry wine. I forgot to drain the sanitizing solution (package of .8%
>> Cl mixed with 1.5 gallons of hot water) from the primary fermenter before I
>> added everything. It didn't hit me what had happened until I found that I
>> was at the 6 gallon mark and had only added 4.5 gallons of
>> water/sugar/honey. I've added no chemicals just yet. The fruit and sugar
>> is now wasted, but my wife thinks that if we just let it alone uncovered
>> the chlorine will leach out like it does in our pool. Obviously this will
>> add some unwated taste, but is it safe to do this? Will it inhibit
>> anything further down the fermenation cycle?
>>
>> She hesitated to throw it away because of the cost, but if it's going to
>> make us sick, or won't work well, then the $75 is down the drain. And I'm
>> OK with that, if that's how it needs to be.
>>
>> Thoughts?

You are right. I got his source wrong. But Cl is the active ingredient in
Clorox.

Ray

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
> Ray Calvert > wrote:
>
>> Wine can recover from almost anything. Very forgiving. But not
>> Clorox. If you use Clorox to clean and sterilize things you
>> should not only toss it and rinse thoroughly, but you should let
>> it dry completely to get rid of the last traces of Clorox. Even
>> at levels of parts per trillion, it can ruin wine. Traces left
>> in cork has ruined many commercial wines.
>
> You are 100% correct with regards to Clorox. However, TRex is
> referring to chlorine. (see below)
>
>
>> "TRex" > wrote:
>
>>> I made a really stupid mistake today when starting my 3rd batch of
>>> blueberry wine. I forgot to drain the sanitizing solution (package of
>>> .8%
>>> Cl mixed with 1.5 gallons of hot water) from the primary fermenter
>>> before I
>>> added everything. It didn't hit me what had happened until I found that
>>> I
>>> was at the 6 gallon mark and had only added 4.5 gallons of
>>> water/sugar/honey. I've added no chemicals just yet. The fruit and
>>> sugar
>>> is now wasted, but my wife thinks that if we just let it alone uncovered
>>> the chlorine will leach out like it does in our pool. Obviously this
>>> will
>>> add some unwated taste, but is it safe to do this? Will it inhibit
>>> anything further down the fermenation cycle?
>>>
>>> She hesitated to throw it away because of the cost, but if it's going to
>>> make us sick, or won't work well, then the $75 is down the drain. And
>>> I'm
>>> OK with that, if that's how it needs to be.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>
>

Chlorine is NOT the active ingredient in bleach. Chlorine Cl2 is a very
toxic green gas and there is no way he was using that to sanitize hsi
equipment.

Sodium hypochlorite is the active ingredient in bleach. NaOCl. This
can be removed from water by the addition of metabisulfite and then
allowing it to sit overnight. Next time rinse your carboy out with
metabisulfite after your bleach solution, or do not use the bleach at
all. It really is not necessary for wine.


I would add meatbisulfite to the wine and let it ferment out. You
already paid for everything, you might as well taste the effects.

> Chlorine is NOT the active ingredient in bleach. Chlorine Cl2
> is a very toxic green gas and there is no way he was using
> that to sanitize hsi equipment.
> Sodium hypochlorite is the active ingredient in bleach. NaOCl.

Okay, but in neutral or acidic sol'n, you've got an equilibrium
occuring:
OCl- + Cl- + 2H+ <==> H2O + Cl2

The fact that he added his solution as sodium hypochlorite (made by
simply dissolving chlorine gas in sodium hydroxide solution) rather
than chlorine gas is irrelevant.

That is not how bleach works.

"Mechanism of action
Like all hypochlorites, sodium hypochlorite is a salt of hypochlorous
acid, HClO. Sodium Hypochlorite is a colorless, transparent liquid. In
water, it partially splits into the sodium cation Na+ and the
hypochlorite anion ClO-, while a substantial portion hydrolyses into
sodium hydroxide and hypochlorous acid. The oxidizing power of the
latter and of the hypochlorite anion cause the bleaching effect. Its
negative charge, however, prevents it from diffusing through the cell
walls of bacteria and microbes, making it a poor disinfectant. However
the hypochlorous acid molecules that exist in equilibrium with the
hypochlorite anion, due to their neutral charge and small size, easily
diffuse through the cell walls of bacteria. This changes the
oxidation-reduction potential (ORP) of the cell, and inactivates the
enzyme triosephosphate dehydrogenase. Triosephosphate dehydrogenase (or
glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase/GAPDH) is essential for the
digestion of glucose, but is particularly sensitive to oxidising
agents. Its inactivation effectively destroys the micro-organism's
ability to function."


What you should have said is that chlorine gas, upon reaction with
water forms hypochlorous acid, and in taht way acts the same as bleach.
My point was that if you are not sure of the chemisty behind a
chemicals mode of action, critiquing it is not what you should be
worried about.

Are you saying that ionic Cl- from clorox is not something to worry about?
I think I will.

Ray
"Droopy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Chlorine is NOT the active ingredient in bleach. Chlorine Cl2 is a very
> toxic green gas and there is no way he was using that to sanitize hsi
> equipment.
>
> Sodium hypochlorite is the active ingredient in bleach. NaOCl. This
> can be removed from water by the addition of metabisulfite and then
> allowing it to sit overnight. Next time rinse your carboy out with
> metabisulfite after your bleach solution, or do not use the bleach at
> all. It really is not necessary for wine.
>
>
> I would add meatbisulfite to the wine and let it ferment out. You
> already paid for everything, you might as well taste the effects.
>

actually it is not. ionized chlorine is completly innoculous.

What do you think happens to salt, NaCl when you eat it? Na+ and Cl-

Droopy wrote:
> actually it is not. ionized chlorine is completly innoculous.
>
> What do you think happens to salt, NaCl when you eat it? Na+ and Cl-

Sodium Hypochlorite (AKA Chlorine Bleach) has been positively linked to
the formation of TCA which is certainly not innocuous.

I'm not sure what innoculous means.

Andy

It was a typo. And I did not say that sodium hypochlorite was
innocuous, I said that ionized chlorine was. Please read all of the
thread before jumping in to contradict everything I post.

Droopy wrote:
> It was a typo. And I did not say that sodium hypochlorite was
> innocuous, I said that ionized chlorine was. Please read all of the
> thread before jumping in to contradict everything I post.

I've read the whole thread and you're giving people the impression that
adding chlorine bleach to wine is a safe practice. Just because you
throw around some technical jargon that really doesn't have anything to
do with the original question, doesn't make you any more correct.

I never said anything about what you said. I just said TCA is not
innocuous.

Do you think that adding sodium hypochlorite (AKA Chlorine bleach,
Clorox) to wine is harmfull?

Andy

Read again. Or don't.

I never said that it would not hurt wine. Again, if you follow the
thread, the "technical jargon" I "threw" around was not in response to
the original question, but to the misunderstanding in the mechanism of
action of hypochlirite bleach. The way the topic is reading, someone
might get the "impression" that adding calcium cloride salt will
destroy their wine, or just as bad, act as a sanitizer. I mean, it has
chlorine in it dosen't it?

JEP62 > wrote:
> Droopy wrote:

>> It was a typo. And I did not say that sodium hypochlorite was
>> innocuous, I said that ionized chlorine was. Please read all of the
>> thread before jumping in to contradict everything I post.

> I've read the whole thread and you're giving people the impression that
> adding chlorine bleach to wine is a safe practice. Just because you
> throw around some technical jargon that really doesn't have anything to
> do with the original question, doesn't make you any more correct.

I certainly did not set the impression that Droopy or anyone thought
"adding chlorine bleach to wine is a safe practice". In the early
stage of this thread, Droopy presumed that Cl was being used as an
abbreviattion for Clorox and was advocating dumping the must. When
I clearly replied that I agreed with him that if the sanitizer were
to contain Clorox, the must should be dumped, but if the Cl stood
for Cloride, the must was worth fementing out. Droopy replied his
agreement.

> ...
> Do you think that adding sodium hypochlorite (AKA Chlorine bleach,
> Clorox) to wine is harmfull?

He definitely wrote that early on in the thread.

Dick

Four people told the OP to toss it. He left 1.5 gallons of Chlorine
based sanitizing solution in there and brought it up to 6 gallons.

The two of you started to argue about side issues and Droopy at one
point said
"I would add meatbisulfite to the wine and let it ferment out. You
already paid for everything, you might as well taste the effects."

This could give some people the wrong impression. The four people that
said dump it gave sound advise. Why did you continue to argue with
them?

Dick, you said "You are 100% correct with regards to Clorox. However,
TRex is
referring to chlorine. (see below)"

This could give people the impression that chlorine is ok.

I just wanted to make it clear that no one believes that adding 1.5
gallons of chlorine based sanitizing solution to 6 gallons of wine is
safe. It should be dumped and quickly.

Do you two agree?

A one word answer will suffice, agree or disagree, so we can let this
stupid thread drop.

Andy

As far as being safe or not, No I would not say it is unsafe. As a
matter of fact, it is advised to use chlorine bleach to disenfect water
of unknown origin that cannot be boiled. A 1 ml solution of 1% bleach
can disenfect a quart of water...not kowing the volume of his 0.8%
package, it is tough to know how much bleach was in it, but since the
working strength solution got dilluted 4 fold I am thinking that it
would end up safe to drink after fermentation. And if it was unsafe to
drink after fermentation....guess what?

It would not have fermented in the first place!!!

The only reason I said to treat it with metabisulfite and ferment it is
because you really will not know the effects until you do. It could
have been that he did add enough meta to treat the water before it
could react with wine chemicals. The meta/hypochlorite reaction is
very fast...faster then the reaction of chlorine to wine phenolics. It
might, despite everyones objections actually turn out ok. Worse case
scenario, it will taste like someone washed bandaids in it and he can
dump it then. But since he already paid for everything, it really does
not hurt to try.

Droopy wrote:

>>..... before jumping in to contradict everything I post.

Then stop posting bad advice to people just starting out. You, sir, are
dangerous.


Andy

wow, just wow. What bad advice have I posted?

At worst, I said to jsut finish a wine that had been started and paid
for, to taste the effects of the mistake. I have since posted
reasoning and actuall facts in defense of everything I have said.

While you seem to make knee jerk reactions, with no reguard to logic or
scientific facts.

That pattern of action is what got old ladies burned at the stake for
being witches, and I am the dangerous one?

JEP62 > wrote:
> Droopy wrote:

>>>..... before jumping in to contradict everything I post.

> Then stop posting bad advice to people just starting out. You, sir, are
> dangerous.

I'm not comfortable to this level of animosity.

Dick

> Four people told the OP to toss it. ....

> The two of you started to argue about side issues ....

Ray and Droopy began discussing how bleach works

> This could give some people the wrong impression. The
> four people that said dump it gave sound advise. Why
> did you continue to argue with them?

You say it was sound advice. All that was posted before I
posted was "Throw it away, man" and "Toss it". And you are
calling that sound advice? What did you find unsound with my
advice?

I wrote:
| Listen to your wife as long as she agrees to be the taste
| tester. And serve it to your in-laws to see what happens
| before you drink any yourself. If your in-laws get sick,
| send me a bottle or two.
|
| More seriously I suggest you call the manufacturer to
| determine the health effects of the contents of the
| sanitizer.

Do you really think requesting information from the
manufacturer before pouring $70 down the toilet is unsound
advice? A two word answer will suffice, sound advice or
unsound advice, so we can let this stupid thread drop.

> Dick, you said "You are 100% correct with regards to
> Clorox. However, TRex is referring to chlorine. (see below)"
>
> This could give people the impression that chlorine is ok.

Only if you failed to read the whole thread and missed the part
about getting advice from the manufacturer.

> I just wanted to make it clear that no one believes that
> adding 1.5 gallons of chlorine based sanitizing solution
> to 6 gallons of wine is safe. It should be dumped and quickly.
>
> Do you two agree?
>
> A one word answer will suffice, agree or disagree, so we can
> let this stupid thread drop.

Sorry, I'd need to ask the manufacturer or a domain-relevant
health care professional before answering your question.

Dick

> Like all hypochlorites, sodium hypochlorite is a salt of hypochlorous
> acid, HClO. Sodium Hypochlorite is a colorless, transparent liquid. In
> water, it partially splits into the sodium cation Na+ and the
> hypochlorite anion ClO-, while a substantial portion hydrolyses into
> sodium hydroxide and hypochlorous acid. The oxidizing power of the
> latter and of the hypochlorite anion cause the bleaching effect. Its
> negative charge, however, prevents it from diffusing through the cell
> walls of bacteria and microbes, making it a poor disinfectant. However
> the hypochlorous acid molecules that exist in equilibrium with the
> hypochlorite anion, due to their neutral charge and small size, easily
> diffuse through the cell walls of bacteria. This changes the
> oxidation-reduction potential (ORP) of the cell, and inactivates the
> enzyme triosephosphate dehydrogenase. Triosephosphate dehydrogenase (or
> glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase/GAPDH) is essential for the
> digestion of glucose, but is particularly sensitive to oxidising
> agents. Its inactivation effectively destroys the micro-organism's
> ability to function."
>


I've been telling people that for years and they JUST DON'T LISTEN.

>> Like all hypochlorites, sodium hypochlorite is a salt of hypochlorous
>> acid, HClO. Sodium Hypochlorite is a colorless, transparent liquid. In
>> water, it partially splits into the sodium cation Na+ and the
>> hypochlorite anion ClO-, while a substantial portion hydrolyses into
>> sodium hydroxide and hypochlorous acid. The oxidizing power of the
>> latter and of the hypochlorite anion cause the bleaching effect. Its
>> negative charge, however, prevents it from diffusing through the cell
>> walls of bacteria and microbes, making it a poor disinfectant. However
>> the hypochlorous acid molecules that exist in equilibrium with the
>> hypochlorite anion, due to their neutral charge and small size, easily
>> diffuse through the cell walls of bacteria. This changes the
>> oxidation-reduction potential (ORP) of the cell, and inactivates the
>> enzyme triosephosphate dehydrogenase. Triosephosphate dehydrogenase (or
>> glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase/GAPDH) is essential for the
>> digestion of glucose, but is particularly sensitive to oxidising
>> agents. Its inactivation effectively destroys the micro-organism's
>> ability to function."

> I've been telling people that for years and they JUST DON'T LISTEN.

That is beautiful!

Dick

> >> agents. Its inactivation effectively destroys the micro-organism's
> >> ability to function."
>
> > I've been telling people that for years and they JUST DON'T LISTEN.
>
> That is beautiful!
>
> Dick


Gotta confess, I laughed at my own joke a lot too. Glad somebody else
enjoyed it.

Well basically you are looking at some potentially toxic or harmfull
chemicals to drink and a really lousy watery taste that you could
continue to try to minimize by adding more orgainic matter and salt.

I'd say because of drinking clorine and bad tastes prob. from weird
compounds floating about I'd rather not do it. really, but maybe it
settled down?


--
--------------------------------------------
Matthew Suffidy - Ottawa, Canada

(use as printed)
http://matthew.chungus.com
--------------------------------------------

Matthew Suffidy wrote:
> Well basically you are looking at some potentially toxic or harmfull
> chemicals to drink and a really lousy watery taste that you could
> continue to try to minimize by adding more orgainic matter and salt.
>
> I'd say because of drinking clorine and bad tastes prob. from weird
> compounds floating about I'd rather not do it. really, but maybe it
> settled down?
>
>
not salt 'and sugar' sorry and I'm not an expert here

--
--------------------------------------------
Matthew Suffidy - Ottawa, Canada

(use as printed)
http://matthew.chungus.com
--------------------------------------------