Hi Folks,

I've been making wine for a couple of years now from kits and also trying my
own from different varieties of fruit.

This year, I decided to order some fresh juice from a winery in the Niagara
Region and today, picked up to 20 KG pails of Baco Noir.

Now this is a little different than what I have been doing before! The
pails are about 5 gallons each - but wow.. I didn't realize that there
would be so much grape content. I don't think my actual yield will be as
much as I had thought.

But I'm looking forward to having a go anyhow

But.. I'm a bit confused - and am looking for some experienced advice. When
I got home, I strained off some juice to measure the specific gravity and
was quite surprised it was only 1.014.

Surprised because I have been lead to believe that this year's crop,
although very poor in quantity, should be high in quality, including sugar
content. Is 1.014 "high" for Baco Noir? Does one normally have to add
sugar?

Or is there something else possibly wrong?

Anyhow, I've added five campden tablets to the pail, to kill off any wild
yeast, and am planning on letting this sit for 12 to 24 hours before adding
yeast.

But it seems to me that I'm also going to have to add sugar. But I have NO
idea what sort of volume of juice to expect from 20 KG (about 40 pounds) of
baco noir must with all the grape skins and mash in there.

My confusion I guess lays in the fact that I had thought I wouldn't need to
add any sugar - that in fact, this year's crop was supposedly higher than
normal in sugar content.. but 1.014 seems low to me!

Any suggestions or ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated!

I'm having a wonderful time with this hobby - mostly from kits in the past,
and my own experiments with blueberries, raspberries and currants. But I'm
not sure where to go with the Baco Noir must I purchased.

Thanks,

Ian

http://homewinery.info/blog

"Ian Scott" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've been making wine for a couple of years now from kits and also trying
> my
> own from different varieties of fruit.
>
> This year, I decided to order some fresh juice from a winery in the
> Niagara
> Region and today, picked up to 20 KG pails of Baco Noir.
>
> Now this is a little different than what I have been doing before! The
> pails are about 5 gallons each - but wow.. I didn't realize that there
> would be so much grape content. I don't think my actual yield will be as
> much as I had thought.
>
> But I'm looking forward to having a go anyhow
>
> But.. I'm a bit confused - and am looking for some experienced advice.
> When
> I got home, I strained off some juice to measure the specific gravity and
> was quite surprised it was only 1.014.
>
> Surprised because I have been lead to believe that this year's crop,
> although very poor in quantity, should be high in quality, including sugar
> content. Is 1.014 "high" for Baco Noir? Does one normally have to add
> sugar?
>
> Or is there something else possibly wrong?

I don't trust your SG reading. It represents a Brix of barely above 3°.
That simply can't be right - at least in fruit that's anywhere near ripe.
Is it possible that it's nearly finished fermenting?

Check your hydrometer against water. That should read 1.000 SG.

Don't add any sugar yet. You don't really know what you have.

Tom S

Tom S wrote:

>
> I don't trust your SG reading. It represents a Brix of barely above 3°.
> That simply can't be right - at least in fruit that's anywhere near ripe.
> Is it possible that it's nearly finished fermenting?

Thanks Tom.. I think your idea that it has nearly finished fermenting is
correct. My hydrometer is fine, I've double checked it against both water
and other wines I have from kits, and it's fine.

The taste of this is quite tart - with a fermented taste to it.

I'm really disappointed. I'm going to give the winery a call and get more
details about when exactly this was harvested. I have a feeling that
somewhere they screwed up because of the sequence I received the phone
calls regarding this and its pick up date.

*sigh*

Now what? Disappointment is an understatement right now.

I've checked both pails - one is at 1.010 - the other 1.014.

Grapes are usually sold in boxes. You mentioned pails. Was this by chance
juice you bought rather than whole grapes?

If it was whole grapes, I agree with Tom. The hydrometer reading makes no
sense. Wine grapes are just not that low.

If it was juice then I would say it is already fermenting with wild yeast
and most of the ferment is over. If it is this par along the yeast you add
may make no difference as the wild yeast has already taken over. Not
NECESSARILY bad. It may turn out quite good.

Let us know

Ray

"Ian Scott" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've been making wine for a couple of years now from kits and also trying
> my
> own from different varieties of fruit.
>
> This year, I decided to order some fresh juice from a winery in the
> Niagara
> Region and today, picked up to 20 KG pails of Baco Noir.
>
> Now this is a little different than what I have been doing before! The
> pails are about 5 gallons each - but wow.. I didn't realize that there
> would be so much grape content. I don't think my actual yield will be as
> much as I had thought.
>
> But I'm looking forward to having a go anyhow
>
> But.. I'm a bit confused - and am looking for some experienced advice.
> When
> I got home, I strained off some juice to measure the specific gravity and
> was quite surprised it was only 1.014.
>
> Surprised because I have been lead to believe that this year's crop,
> although very poor in quantity, should be high in quality, including sugar
> content. Is 1.014 "high" for Baco Noir? Does one normally have to add
> sugar?
>
> Or is there something else possibly wrong?
>
> Anyhow, I've added five campden tablets to the pail, to kill off any wild
> yeast, and am planning on letting this sit for 12 to 24 hours before
> adding
> yeast.
>
> But it seems to me that I'm also going to have to add sugar. But I have
> NO
> idea what sort of volume of juice to expect from 20 KG (about 40 pounds)
> of
> baco noir must with all the grape skins and mash in there.
>
> My confusion I guess lays in the fact that I had thought I wouldn't need
> to
> add any sugar - that in fact, this year's crop was supposedly higher than
> normal in sugar content.. but 1.014 seems low to me!
>
> Any suggestions or ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated!
>
> I'm having a wonderful time with this hobby - mostly from kits in the
> past,
> and my own experiments with blueberries, raspberries and currants. But
> I'm
> not sure where to go with the Baco Noir must I purchased.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ian
>
> http://homewinery.info/blog
>

Ray Calvert wrote:

> Grapes are usually sold in boxes. You mentioned pails. Was this by
> chance juice you bought rather than whole grapes?

It's red juice - by grape content I meant grape skins, etc.


> If it was juice then I would say it is already fermenting with wild yeast
> and most of the ferment is over. If it is this par along the yeast you
> add
> may make no difference as the wild yeast has already taken over. Not
> NECESSARILY bad. It may turn out quite good.

Ok... should I add yeast anyhow? I'm not really sure what to do at this
point. Let it continue for a few more days while punching down the cap?

Advice would be appreciated!

> Let us know

I sure will.

Ian - You can count on your juice or wine being 2/3 of the total volume of
juice, skins and seeds. I know Baco quite well and it's a high sugar, high
acid grape in the Kansas City area. Looks like the vineyard sold you must
that was already fermenting when you picked it up. I would be quite unhappy
with them.\

Don't bother adding yeast now...it's about done with the rapid fermentation.
Some winemakers in my area don't add wine yeast and count on the
natural/wild yeast. Hopefully the Niagara region has a good quality natural
yeast living in their vineyards. Here in Kansas you can't count on wild
yeast being the best for winemaking.

Be sure to give your wine a good cold conditioning to precipitate a lot of
acid. If the new wine tests high for acid and tastes very tart you might
consider malo-lactic fermentation to soften the wine. Watch out for pH
though...if it gets much above 3.5 the wine takes on a brown tint.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Ian Scott" > wrote in message
...
> Ray Calvert wrote:
>
>> Grapes are usually sold in boxes. You mentioned pails. Was this by
>> chance juice you bought rather than whole grapes?
>
> It's red juice - by grape content I meant grape skins, etc.
>
>
>> If it was juice then I would say it is already fermenting with wild yeast
>> and most of the ferment is over. If it is this par along the yeast you
>> add
>> may make no difference as the wild yeast has already taken over. Not
>> NECESSARILY bad. It may turn out quite good.
>
> Ok... should I add yeast anyhow? I'm not really sure what to do at this
> point. Let it continue for a few more days while punching down the cap?
>
> Advice would be appreciated!
>
>> Let us know
>
> I sure will.

Ian Scott wrote:


> This year, I decided to order some fresh juice from a winery in the
> Niagara Region and today, picked up to 20 KG pails of Baco Noir.

>
> But.. I'm a bit confused - and am looking for some experienced advice.
> When I got home, I strained off some juice to measure the specific gravity
> and was quite surprised it was only 1.014.

Just spoke with the vineyard folks, and they have admitted that I was not
called in time to pick this up so they will be refunding me.

Still a disappointment nonetheless..... but I thought I may as well
experiment.

A couple of people have suggested that I see what I get with the wild yeast
fermentation that has occurred.

I have two pails - so I'm thinking about letting one pail carry on as it is,
but the second pail, refermenting it by putting it through another
fermentation with sugar and my wine yeast.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

Ian Scott
http://homewinery.info/blog

Ian Scott wrote:

> Ian Scott wrote:
>
>
>> This year, I decided to order some fresh juice from a winery in the
>> Niagara Region and today, picked up to 20 KG pails of Baco Noir.
>
>>
>> But.. I'm a bit confused - and am looking for some experienced advice.
>> When I got home, I strained off some juice to measure the specific
>> gravity and was quite surprised it was only 1.014.
>
> Just spoke with the vineyard folks, and they have admitted that I was not
> called in time to pick this up so they will be refunding me.
>
> Still a disappointment nonetheless..... but I thought I may as well
> experiment.
>
> A couple of people have suggested that I see what I get with the wild
> yeast fermentation that has occurred.
>
> I have two pails - so I'm thinking about letting one pail carry on as it
> is, but the second pail, refermenting it by putting it through another
> fermentation with sugar and my wine yeast.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ian Scott
> http://homewinery.info/blog

Sounds like a good approach to me. Do you have some "Ballpark" Brox pr SG
figures to calculate how much sugar to add. If you do, you may wish to
consider adding this sugar amount to your "natural" fermentation also.

Ian - Don't add the extra sugar. You will end up with more fermentable
sugar than any yeast can handle...the yeast will quit working...and you will
be left with a very sweet, alcoholic liquid. It's too late for your wine
yeast to have any impact on the flavor of your wine. Just go ahead with
both pails as is. I would mix them together so you have one large batch of
wine to work with. Then you can decide if the wine is to your liking or
not.

Now, Baco juice in your part of the world may have lower acid levels than my
Kansas Baco. But, in case Baco is Baco no matter where it's grown you will
have a high acid wine. Do you have acid testing equipment? Do you depend
on color change or do you have a pH meter to determine end point for acid
titrations? I ask because you can do some interesting experiments with your
wine that may help you in the future. Acid tests are better done using a pH
meter to determine end points.

After the wine is finished fermenting test for acid and also taste test to
see how you like it. If it's too acid or tart consider ways to reduce
acid...read up on it. Then use some of your wine for these experiments and
bottle the rest. You can consider malo-lactic fermentation to change malic
into lactic acid (Baco has lots of malic acid). You can do a hard cold
conditioning...you should do this any way. You could freeze a portion of
the wine...this will drop out the most acid...and then blend the deacidified
wine back with the bulk. You could neutralize a portion of the wine with
potassium bicarbonate or do a double salt deacidification. Be aware that if
you do either of these techniques to lower acid the taste will be adversely
affected for several months.

Good luck with your wine. Let me know how it turns out. Some locals make
Baco wine using the natural yeast that comes on the grapes. Some say it's
pretty good wine.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Scott" >
> A couple of people have suggested that I see what I get with the wild
> yeast
> fermentation that has occurred.
>
> I have two pails - so I'm thinking about letting one pail carry on as it
> is,
> but the second pail, refermenting it by putting it through another
> fermentation with sugar and my wine yeast.

Just wanted to second the motion to NOT add more sugar...

In a low-yield, ripe year (Ontario had one of the hottest, driest
summers on record) adding sugar will only make your wine terribly
unbalanced.

Baco is naturally high in sugar, acid, and tannins which allow the
finished wine to be balanced. You don't really want to mess with it,
especially since you have no idea where the alcohol content is right
now...

CJ wrote:

> Just wanted to second the motion to NOT add more sugar...

Thanks to both Bill and CJ for the advice.... but...

Heh - I really wasn't sure what to do, and so I ended up doing what I had
thought of doing. Oh well.. call it "Wine Hacking." I'll learn
something. And as you both say, the one will turn out to be a sweet
alcoholic liquid - well, I know a few 20 something year olds that will
drink it anyhow

All part of the learning, I guess