I need some insight into what I think is an issue I am having with my first
attempt at a non-kit wine. I am making black raspberry wine from berries
harvested locally in central Ohio. They were harvested last summer and
frozen. I thawed the berries in January 05 and ran them through a
strainer - one of those hand crank jobs from Back-to-Basics. I added
whelches white grape juice to the raspberry juice to increase the volume and
add balance. Fermentation when well and have racked a couple of times. I
have been bulk aging since February. Now for the problem. The
clearity/color is excelent, bouquet is wonderful, and the taste starts well.
The problem is that it finishes with a very sharp bitting biterness. Could
this be flavor imparted from the seeds? Will it go away on its own? My
intent was to take 1/2 of the 5 gallon batch and sweeten it and leave the
other 1/2 dry. I am wanting to bottle soon but don't know if I should if
there is something I should do about this bitterness.

Suggestions?

How much fruit did you use per gallon? Jack Keller mentions almost exactly
same problem, with same fruit, on his Wineblog here.
http://www.homebrew.com/wine_cellar/wineblog.shtml It seems it was a
problem with too much fruit used. If you look at his July 14, 2004 entry,
it might be of some help to you.

Joel

"Michael E. Carey" > wrote in message
...
> I need some insight into what I think is an issue I am having with my
first
> attempt at a non-kit wine. I am making black raspberry wine from berries
> harvested locally in central Ohio. They were harvested last summer and
> frozen. I thawed the berries in January 05 and ran them through a
> strainer - one of those hand crank jobs from Back-to-Basics. I added
> whelches white grape juice to the raspberry juice to increase the volume
and
> add balance. Fermentation when well and have racked a couple of times. I
> have been bulk aging since February. Now for the problem. The
> clearity/color is excelent, bouquet is wonderful, and the taste starts
well.
> The problem is that it finishes with a very sharp bitting biterness.
Could
> this be flavor imparted from the seeds? Will it go away on its own? My
> intent was to take 1/2 of the 5 gallon batch and sweeten it and leave the
> other 1/2 dry. I am wanting to bottle soon but don't know if I should if
> there is something I should do about this bitterness.
>
> Suggestions?
>
>

Hmmmm. Interesting insight. I will have to check my records but I think I
started with 5 - 7 quarts of raspberry juice. I would have to guess at how
many pounds of berries that would have been. JK talks about a "too
pronounced" raspberry flavor. I would not characterize mine that way. I
would call it pleasently fruity but not overpowering. The bouquet is
exceptionally fruity so maybe that is a hint that I did in fact use to many
berries. Although I have read on this board of folks using 100% raspberry
juice and loved the wine.

The lingering affect most definitely applies. The bitterness lingers in the
mouth for a long time after sampling.

The part he mentions about sweetness is something I can't comment on because
I have not sweetened it yet. I don't want to sweeten if I have to do
acidity balancing or something first.

Michael
"Joel Sprague" > wrote in message
news:z4pHe.8593$Zt.1780@okepread05...
> How much fruit did you use per gallon? Jack Keller mentions almost
exactly
> same problem, with same fruit, on his Wineblog here.
> http://www.homebrew.com/wine_cellar/wineblog.shtml It seems it was a
> problem with too much fruit used. If you look at his July 14, 2004 entry,
> it might be of some help to you.
>
> Joel
>

> The problem is that it finishes with a very sharp bitting biterness. Could
> this be flavor imparted from the seeds?

Most likely. Winemakers need to be careful in the juice processing of
raspberry in order to avoid picking up excessive (seed) phenols.

> Will it go away on its own?

It may soften slightly, but it's unlikely to ever really dissappear of
itself.

> I am wanting to bottle soon but don't know if I should if there is something I should do about this bitterness.

Sweetening is the simplest solution. Alternatively, fining options
might be considered.

As to the suggestion that too much fruit was used: I certainly don't
consider using 5-7 US quarts per 5 US gallons (260-370 ml juice/l wine;
about 12-15 kgs/26-33 lbs fruit) as using a lot of fruit at all! And,
in fear of sounding like a broken record, I continue to disagree with
some of Jack Keller's conclusions regarding high-concentration fruit
wines (though, in fact, I believe Jack has made some 100% wines himself
which he's considered to be of high quality). It's my opinion that the
analysis that "The problem is that the flavor is so strong that it
clings to the tongue and overloads the taste buds. The next sip adds to
the effect and overwhelms the taste buds responsible for detecting
sugar" is completely incorrect - physiologically that doesn't make
sense (the aromatic (flavour) sensors are completely separate to those
responsible for sweetness). 100% wines which are *well balanced* are
often far superior to less concentrated wines, the problem is that many
100%ers aren't balanced.

Besides the above, a bitterness issue is more to do with extraction
technique than quantitiy of fruit per se.

Ben

I agree, 5-7 quarts doesn't seem like too much for a 5 gallon batch. So
yes, you're either facing a balance issue(either alcohol or acid), or an
astringency issue(think that's correct term) due to the seeds, ro rather,
the tannin, etc from the seeds. Not really sure how to fix it though,
particularly not when not being sure which it is. I'm one who's always had
trouble differentiating between tart, sour and bitter. Can tell the tastes
are different, but have trouble matching what I taste with way other people
describe it, if that makes sense.

Joel

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> > The problem is that it finishes with a very sharp bitting biterness.
Could
> > this be flavor imparted from the seeds?
>
> Most likely. Winemakers need to be careful in the juice processing of
> raspberry in order to avoid picking up excessive (seed) phenols.
>
> > Will it go away on its own?
>
> It may soften slightly, but it's unlikely to ever really dissappear of
> itself.
>
> > I am wanting to bottle soon but don't know if I should if there is
something I should do about this bitterness.
>
> Sweetening is the simplest solution. Alternatively, fining options
> might be considered.
>
> As to the suggestion that too much fruit was used: I certainly don't
> consider using 5-7 US quarts per 5 US gallons (260-370 ml juice/l wine;
> about 12-15 kgs/26-33 lbs fruit) as using a lot of fruit at all! And,
> in fear of sounding like a broken record, I continue to disagree with
> some of Jack Keller's conclusions regarding high-concentration fruit
> wines (though, in fact, I believe Jack has made some 100% wines himself
> which he's considered to be of high quality). It's my opinion that the
> analysis that "The problem is that the flavor is so strong that it
> clings to the tongue and overloads the taste buds. The next sip adds to
> the effect and overwhelms the taste buds responsible for detecting
> sugar" is completely incorrect - physiologically that doesn't make
> sense (the aromatic (flavour) sensors are completely separate to those
> responsible for sweetness). 100% wines which are *well balanced* are
> often far superior to less concentrated wines, the problem is that many
> 100%ers aren't balanced.
>
> Besides the above, a bitterness issue is more to do with extraction
> technique than quantitiy of fruit per se.
>
> Ben
>

I've made raspberry wine too, and noticed a slight tartness as well. I did
freeze my fruit too, but I wouldn't put the fruit through a strainer because
of the seeds. I've heard that seeds can add a bitterness. As another poster
said, I doubt it will go away either. Your best bet is to sweeten, but you
don't have to make it really sweet, you could just add enough to balance the
tartness. Most recipes talk about adding 2 oz to 6 oz of sugar per gallon,
depending on your taste buds. If you do that, remember to stabilize your
wine. Or you could blend it with another wine...? but that's up to you.
Darlene

"Michael E. Carey" > wrote in message
...
>I need some insight into what I think is an issue I am having with my first
> attempt at a non-kit wine. I am making black raspberry wine from berries
> harvested locally in central Ohio. They were harvested last summer and
> frozen. I thawed the berries in January 05 and ran them through a
> strainer - one of those hand crank jobs from Back-to-Basics. I added
> whelches white grape juice to the raspberry juice to increase the volume
> and
> add balance. Fermentation when well and have racked a couple of times. I
> have been bulk aging since February. Now for the problem. The
> clearity/color is excelent, bouquet is wonderful, and the taste starts
> well.
> The problem is that it finishes with a very sharp bitting biterness.
> Could
> this be flavor imparted from the seeds? Will it go away on its own? My
> intent was to take 1/2 of the 5 gallon batch and sweeten it and leave the
> other 1/2 dry. I am wanting to bottle soon but don't know if I should if
> there is something I should do about this bitterness.
>
> Suggestions?
>
>

"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> I've made raspberry wine too, and noticed a slight tartness as well. I did
> freeze my fruit too, but I wouldn't put the fruit through a strainer
> because of the seeds. I've heard that seeds can add a bitterness. As
> another poster said, I doubt it will go away either. Your best bet is to
> sweeten, but you don't have to make it really sweet, you could just add
> enough to balance the tartness. Most recipes talk about adding 2 oz to 6
> oz of sugar per gallon, depending on your taste buds. If you do that,
> remember to stabilize your wine. Or you could blend it with another
> wine...? but that's up to you.
> Darlene

I understood that raspberries were high in tannin. Is it possible that this
what is causing the tartness. like with some teas. If so it may take some
time to go away.

Thomas

Really...? The raspberry wine I made still had that tartness even 2+years
after I made it. I don't know that I would attribute that tartness to excess
tannin, because all of my fruit (non-grape) recipes call for adding tannin.
My first cherry wine was made out of Door county sour cherries - it had a
tartness that did not go away over time, even after 3 years. The second time
I made the cherry wine I used sweet cherries, and the tartness wasn't there
at all. Both recipes used the same amount of tannin.
Darlene

"thomasuno" > wrote in message
k...
>
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I've made raspberry wine too, and noticed a slight tartness as well. I
>> did freeze my fruit too, but I wouldn't put the fruit through a strainer
>> because of the seeds. I've heard that seeds can add a bitterness. As
>> another poster said, I doubt it will go away either. Your best bet is to
>> sweeten, but you don't have to make it really sweet, you could just add
>> enough to balance the tartness. Most recipes talk about adding 2 oz to 6
>> oz of sugar per gallon, depending on your taste buds. If you do that,
>> remember to stabilize your wine. Or you could blend it with another
>> wine...? but that's up to you.
>> Darlene
>
> I understood that raspberries were high in tannin. Is it possible that
> this what is causing the tartness. like with some teas. If so it may take
> some time to go away.
>
> Thomas
>

"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> Really...? The raspberry wine I made still had that tartness even 2+years
> after I made it. I don't know that I would attribute that tartness to
> excess tannin, because all of my fruit (non-grape) recipes call for adding
> tannin. My first cherry wine was made out of Door county sour cherries -
> it had a tartness that did not go away over time, even after 3 years. The
> second time I made the cherry wine I used sweet cherries, and the tartness
> wasn't there at all. Both recipes used the same amount of tannin.
> Darlene
>
> "thomasuno" > wrote in message
> k...
>>
>> "Dar V" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I've made raspberry wine too, and noticed a slight tartness as well. I
>>> did freeze my fruit too, but I wouldn't put the fruit through a strainer
>>> because of the seeds. I've heard that seeds can add a bitterness. As
>>> another poster said, I doubt it will go away either. Your best bet is to
>>> sweeten, but you don't have to make it really sweet, you could just add
>>> enough to balance the tartness. Most recipes talk about adding 2 oz to 6
>>> oz of sugar per gallon, depending on your taste buds. If you do that,
>>> remember to stabilize your wine. Or you could blend it with another
>>> wine...? but that's up to you.
>>> Darlene
>>
>> I understood that raspberries were high in tannin. Is it possible that
>> this what is causing the tartness. like with some teas. If so it may take
>> some time to go away.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>
>
I can see now that I did not use a question mark. I was genuinely wondering
if the greater level of tannin caused the tartness.

Thomas

Okay - actually I had to go to my wine book to see what it had to say -
Terry Garey's Home Winemaking book. You raise a good point. Grape tannin
gives a wine a dryness. Grapes comes with their own tannin supply in their
skin. According to Terry, elderberries, blueberries and blackberries have
extra tannins, so you might be right that raspberries have it too, but Terry
doesn't say so. On the other hand, a wine which has a "bite" can be due to
the amount of acid in the fruit. Terry does say a raspberry wine will have a
tart taste, now I'm not sure if that would be due to the acid content,
tannins, or something else in the fruit. But as I look as recipes for these
fruit wines, the recipe for raspberry wine calls for 1/2 tsp acid blend,
while blueberry & blackberry calls for 2 tsp acid blend. Yet when I look for
tannin - raspberry & blueberry call for 1/8 tsp tannin, while blackberry
calls for no additional tannin. You're guess is as good as mine. It is just
from my winemaking experience that it depends on the fruit...not too much
tannin. This may be different for others, we all have different taste buds.
Darlene


"thomasuno" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Really...? The raspberry wine I made still had that tartness even
>> 2+years after I made it. I don't know that I would attribute that
>> tartness to excess tannin, because all of my fruit (non-grape) recipes
>> call for adding tannin. My first cherry wine was made out of Door county
>> sour cherries - it had a tartness that did not go away over time, even
>> after 3 years. The second time I made the cherry wine I used sweet
>> cherries, and the tartness wasn't there at all. Both recipes used the
>> same amount of tannin.
>> Darlene
>>
>> "thomasuno" > wrote in message
>> k...
>>>
>>> "Dar V" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> I've made raspberry wine too, and noticed a slight tartness as well. I
>>>> did freeze my fruit too, but I wouldn't put the fruit through a
>>>> strainer because of the seeds. I've heard that seeds can add a
>>>> bitterness. As another poster said, I doubt it will go away either.
>>>> Your best bet is to sweeten, but you don't have to make it really
>>>> sweet, you could just add enough to balance the tartness. Most recipes
>>>> talk about adding 2 oz to 6 oz of sugar per gallon, depending on your
>>>> taste buds. If you do that, remember to stabilize your wine. Or you
>>>> could blend it with another wine...? but that's up to you.
>>>> Darlene
>>>
>>> I understood that raspberries were high in tannin. Is it possible that
>>> this what is causing the tartness. like with some teas. If so it may
>>> take some time to go away.
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>
>>
> I can see now that I did not use a question mark. I was genuinely
> wondering if the greater level of tannin caused the tartness.
>
> Thomas
>

Hi, Michael.

There is no problem with this, Bottle your wine, it will improve with age,
that is in the bottle.

Leave for 12 to 18 months, by which time all will be well.

Stephen SG

"Michael E. Carey" > wrote in message
...
|I need some insight into what I think is an issue I am having with my first
| attempt at a non-kit wine. I am making black raspberry wine from berries
| harvested locally in central Ohio. They were harvested last summer and
| frozen. I thawed the berries in January 05 and ran them through a
| strainer - one of those hand crank jobs from Back-to-Basics. I added
| whelches white grape juice to the raspberry juice to increase the volume
and
| add balance. Fermentation when well and have racked a couple of times. I
| have been bulk aging since February. Now for the problem. The
| clearity/color is excelent, bouquet is wonderful, and the taste starts
well.
| The problem is that it finishes with a very sharp bitting biterness.
Could
| this be flavor imparted from the seeds? Will it go away on its own? My
| intent was to take 1/2 of the 5 gallon batch and sweeten it and leave the
| other 1/2 dry. I am wanting to bottle soon but don't know if I should if
| there is something I should do about this bitterness.
|
| Suggestions?
|
|

Michael E. Carey wrote:
> I need some insight into what I think is an issue I am having with my first
> attempt at a non-kit wine. I am making black raspberry wine from berries
> harvested locally in central Ohio. They were harvested last summer and
> frozen. I thawed the berries in January 05 and ran them through a
> strainer - one of those hand crank jobs from Back-to-Basics. I added
> whelches white grape juice to the raspberry juice to increase the volume and
> add balance. Fermentation when well and have racked a couple of times. I
> have been bulk aging since February. Now for the problem. The
> clearity/color is excelent, bouquet is wonderful, and the taste starts well.
> The problem is that it finishes with a very sharp bitting biterness. Could
> this be flavor imparted from the seeds? Will it go away on its own? My
> intent was to take 1/2 of the 5 gallon batch and sweeten it and leave the
> other 1/2 dry. I am wanting to bottle soon but don't know if I should if
> there is something I should do about this bitterness.
>
> Suggestions?
>
>

I had a similar problem with a strawberry wine that I couldn't get out
of the primary (and the fruit out) until longer than I'd wanted. It was
undrinkable and I nearly tossed it all out - but having heard the "age
it, age it' mantra for so long, I just kept it in bottles for a year
before I tasted it again. It had begun to mellow very nicely, and the
bitter flavor eventually faded to just an undertone in what was a very
smooth, dry, strawberry wine. Took about 2 years for it to be really good.

Woods

Did you ever measure pH and tiratable acidity?

I am thinking you have a high malic acid content.

I did test for acid. I will have to look at my notes (not with me) to give
you accurate values as I cannot remember the specifics. Here is my
recollection. Using ph strips and an acid titration kit, I was guided to
lower the acid level (raise the pH). I did this by adding CaCO3 (I think).
I then gave a sample of the wine to a friend that is a chemist and he used a
pH meter and I think he got 3.5 +- .02. This was 6 months ago and I have
not tested it again. All of this was done post primary fermentation. I was
going to run another titration but I don't know how useful this is because
most acid in raspberry wine is citric acid. I thought titration kits only
worked for tartaric acid. Anyway, the bitternes I am tasting just does not
seem to me to be acidity related.


"Droopy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Did you ever measure pH and tiratable acidity?
>
> I am thinking you have a high malic acid content.
>