I have a problem with persistent (though slight) bubbling from several
batches of "completed" white wine. I've considered that I have
residual sugar, but they're bone dry. I've also considered incomplete
MLFs, but the wines have been well sulfited, and have been treated with
lysozyme. The clincher was when I agitated the wine and found that I
could immediately get a layer of foam. At that point, I concluded that
my problem was just dissolved CO2. Does this make sense?

At that point, I put a stirrer on a power drill and found that I could
immediately get a 3 inch layer of foam in the carboy. I let that
dissipate over about an hour, but then stirred it again and I'm still
getting layers of foam. Even just using a syringe and sucking out and
then squirting back 10 cc of wine will illicit bubbles and foaming.

So, now what do I do? Should I just keep stirring? I don't want to
bottle anything that's still bubbling, and for that matter I'm in no
rush to bottle. But just to have an occasional bubble rise to the
surface could take years for this wine to settle down. By the way, the
wine has been fined and is crystal clear, with no sediment whatsoever.
It was started about 4 months ago. These wines include
gewurtztraminer, viognier, sauvignon blanc, reisling, and pinot gris.
Same issue with all of them.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Lee

Lee wrote:
> I have a problem with persistent (though slight) bubbling from several
> batches of "completed" white wine. I've considered that I have
> residual sugar, but they're bone dry. I've also considered incomplete
> MLFs, but the wines have been well sulfited, and have been treated with
> lysozyme. The clincher was when I agitated the wine and found that I
> could immediately get a layer of foam. At that point, I concluded that
> my problem was just dissolved CO2. Does this make sense?
>
> At that point, I put a stirrer on a power drill and found that I could
> immediately get a 3 inch layer of foam in the carboy. I let that
> dissipate over about an hour, but then stirred it again and I'm still
> getting layers of foam. Even just using a syringe and sucking out and
> then squirting back 10 cc of wine will illicit bubbles and foaming.
>
> So, now what do I do? Should I just keep stirring? I don't want to
> bottle anything that's still bubbling, and for that matter I'm in no
> rush to bottle. But just to have an occasional bubble rise to the
> surface could take years for this wine to settle down. By the way, the
> wine has been fined and is crystal clear, with no sediment whatsoever.
> It was started about 4 months ago. These wines include
> gewurtztraminer, viognier, sauvignon blanc, reisling, and pinot gris.
> Same issue with all of them.
>
> Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Lee
>
Hi Lee

Stir it again, once or twice a day for 2 or 3 days. That should take
care of the CO2.

HTH

Frank

Lee -
It does sound like dissolved CO2. Stirring should take care of
most of it. The other factor is temperature. I have this same issue
with wines I do over the winter - the temp. in my basement (wine
cellar) stays around 60F over the winter, so wines tend to hold onto
CO2. If you can raise the temp. to 70F or so for a few days or a week,
I think that would help a lot as well.

Doug

I was thinking the same thing, ccold wine holds more gas in saturation.
Here is an easy way to raise the temp. Grab a heating pad and tie it
on to a carboy set at low, then wrap a few towels around it. It works
for me. I might go for 80F though.

Joe

Doug wrote:
> Lee -
> It does sound like dissolved CO2. Stirring should take care of
> most of it. The other factor is temperature. I have this same issue
> with wines I do over the winter - the temp. in my basement (wine
> cellar) stays around 60F over the winter, so wines tend to hold onto
> CO2. If you can raise the temp. to 70F or so for a few days or a
week,
> I think that would help a lot as well.
>
> Doug

I am in an apartment, so out of necessity, the temps are around 72-75F
pretty much the whole time. Even at that level, I've still got lots of
CO2 in carboys with whites that have been bulk aging for up to 6
months. I'm blaming this on the cold fermentation temps.

Joe, if you heat up to 80F, what does this do to the wine quality for
whites?

Pp

pp wrote:
> Doug wrote:
>
>>Lee -
>> It does sound like dissolved CO2. Stirring should take care of
>>most of it. The other factor is temperature. I have this same issue
>>with wines I do over the winter - the temp. in my basement (wine
>>cellar) stays around 60F over the winter, so wines tend to hold onto
>>CO2. If you can raise the temp. to 70F or so for a few days or a
>
> week,
>
>>I think that would help a lot as well.
>>
>>Doug
>
>
> I am in an apartment, so out of necessity, the temps are around 72-75F
> pretty much the whole time. Even at that level, I've still got lots of
> CO2 in carboys with whites that have been bulk aging for up to 6
> months. I'm blaming this on the cold fermentation temps.
>
> Joe, if you heat up to 80F, what does this do to the wine quality for
> whites?
>
> Pp
>
Sounds a tad warm. Are you worried about cooked flavors or is the
duration at 80F short enough to prevent damage?

Frank

Higher temperatures will damage the wine, browning occurs 15 to 20
times faster at 40 C than 20 C. That said, I would heat it up, degas
it and let it cool down. 77 F is 25 C and you are already at 72 to 75.
I doubt it will help you much to take it to 80 so maybe can that idea.


Have you checked RS? Is it below 0.25%? If not, it could just be
starting up again nad will die off on it's own.

The best way to degas is to bubble nitrogen through a bubbling stone
into the wine for a few minutes according to Margalit. I don't have
that kind of setup though. I stir it at room temperature.

I have noticed that if I degas and bottle below 65 I'm wasting my time,
the results are not consistent. The wines may or may not have just a
bit of fizz. (Not that that's a bad thing, there are wines in France
made that way on purpose.)

Joe


pp wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> > Lee -
> > It does sound like dissolved CO2. Stirring should take care of
> > most of it. The other factor is temperature. I have this same
issue
> > with wines I do over the winter - the temp. in my basement (wine
> > cellar) stays around 60F over the winter, so wines tend to hold
onto
> > CO2. If you can raise the temp. to 70F or so for a few days or a
> week,
> > I think that would help a lot as well.
> >
> > Doug
>
> I am in an apartment, so out of necessity, the temps are around
72-75F
> pretty much the whole time. Even at that level, I've still got lots
of
> CO2 in carboys with whites that have been bulk aging for up to 6
> months. I'm blaming this on the cold fermentation temps.
>
> Joe, if you heat up to 80F, what does this do to the wine quality for
> whites?
>
> Pp

Frank,
I wouldn't keep it there at all, just raise the temp and degas, then
get it cool again. It will oxidize faster at high temperatures, you
are right.

This wine is actually warmer than I thought, so I would really double
check the residual sugar just in case it's spontaneous seciondary
fermentation. I have had mostly dry (~0.5% RS) wines restart in the
spring, a lot of my reds never get to 0.2% before it gets cold.

Joe

It's interesting what you say about the ill effects of an 80 degree
temperature. I've ound that the best way to get a vigorous MLF going
is to elevate the temperature. I have a relatively controlled
environment, and when the temperature drops to 70, the ML seems to
stop, but when I get it back up to 75 or so, it re-starts.

But now I'm wondering if it was just dissolved CO2 that bubbles out
better at 75 than it does at 70.

Lee

I heard that the ideal storage temp for red wine is 65-70. Is this
correct and if so how could 80 be too warm for a short period of time??


Just wondering.


Bob


Frank Mirigliano wrote:
> pp wrote:
> > Doug wrote:
> >
> >>Lee -
> >> It does sound like dissolved CO2. Stirring should take care of
> >>most of it. The other factor is temperature. I have this same
issue
> >>with wines I do over the winter - the temp. in my basement (wine
> >>cellar) stays around 60F over the winter, so wines tend to hold
onto
> >>CO2. If you can raise the temp. to 70F or so for a few days or a
> >
> > week,
> >
> >>I think that would help a lot as well.
> >>
> >>Doug
> >
> >
> > I am in an apartment, so out of necessity, the temps are around
72-75F
> > pretty much the whole time. Even at that level, I've still got lots
of
> > CO2 in carboys with whites that have been bulk aging for up to 6
> > months. I'm blaming this on the cold fermentation temps.
> >
> > Joe, if you heat up to 80F, what does this do to the wine quality
for
> > whites?
> >
> > Pp
> >
> Sounds a tad warm. Are you worried about cooked flavors or is the
> duration at 80F short enough to prevent damage?
>
> Frank

wrote:
> I heard that the ideal storage temp for red wine is 65-70. Is this
> correct and if so how could 80 be too warm for a short period of time??
>
>
> Just wondering.
>
>
> Bob

Hi Bob

If you are storing both whites and reds it is easier to shoot for a year
round temperature of 55F. Most folks prefer to serve the reds at
~60-65F. Simply remove the bottle from the storage area an hour or so
before you intend to drink it. Most whites will be perfect around 55 to
60F.

HTH

Frank

One other possibility for you to use is to put something in the wine
that will give the CO2 a chance to bubble off of, which will speed
things up. With a sediment-free crystal clear wine in a smooth glass
carboy, the CO2 has nowhere to start it's gassing-out process. You're
looking for an inert material with a slightly rough surface. Perhaps
run a dozen or so marbles over some sandpaper to roughen their surface,
rinse well, then pop them in. Couple of oak-cubes would work really
well, but that would change the wine's flavor. You get the idea.

Think of what dropping a couple of ice-cubes into a soda does.
Obviously the ice is colder and is water, so it's not temperature or
CO2 concentration that causes it to foam - it's the irregular surface
of the ice that allows the CO2 bubbles to form.

HTH

Rob

Knew I'd finally remember. It's called nucleation, and it's the same
principle that's used to get Tartrate crystals by dropping a little
cream of tatar into a cold-stabilizing carboy. Everything happens on
the edges.

Anyway, you get the idea, and hope it helps.

Rob