Hi Folks,

I am new to wine making and been having a lot of fun doing it.
Have made a couple of enjoyable batches.

Once I have my must racked off into the secondary fermentor,
is it really necessary to rack it off several more times?
It would seem that all the dead yeast and grape matter are
going to settle to the bottom anyway before I bottle it. Exposing
the must to air during the process opens the door further for oxygen
and vinegar yeast contamination.
Why rack it again?

Thanks for the anticipated response

Joe

"joe rosati" > wrote in message
newsUmXd.84927$sR5.71120@trndny05...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I am new to wine making and been having a lot of fun doing it.
> Have made a couple of enjoyable batches.
>
> Once I have my must racked off into the secondary fermentor,
> is it really necessary to rack it off several more times?
> It would seem that all the dead yeast and grape matter are
> going to settle to the bottom anyway before I bottle it. Exposing
> the must to air during the process opens the door further for oxygen
> and vinegar yeast contamination.
> Why rack it again?
>
> Thanks for the anticipated response
>
> Joe
>
It is a mater of style. I probably rack a lot less frequently than many
others. I will rack a month or two after fermentation finishes. Then I try
to wait until it pretty much clears. this may take 2 or 3 months or it may
take 5 months. After this racking I fine it if necessary and rack again
after it clears. I then bulk age and may not rack again for a year or more.
Some where in there I may bottle early or I may fit in an extra racking
depending on conditions. Nothing is set in stone.

But that is my style.

Ray

The voices in the head of "Ray Calvert" > caused
Ray Calvert to write in
:

> It is a mater of style. I probably rack a lot less frequently than
> many others. I will rack a month or two after fermentation finishes.
> Then I try to wait until it pretty much clears. this may take 2 or 3
> months or it may take 5 months. After this racking I fine it if


This brings up the interesting issue of centrifuging. Has anyone tried
this?


--
This sig free text brought to you by the letters s, i & g

"Goat Tosser" > wrote in message
...
> The voices in the head of "Ray Calvert" > caused
> Ray Calvert to write in
> :
>
> > It is a mater of style. I probably rack a lot less frequently than
> > many others. I will rack a month or two after fermentation finishes.
> > Then I try to wait until it pretty much clears. this may take 2 or 3
> > months or it may take 5 months. After this racking I fine it if
>
>
> This brings up the interesting issue of centrifuging. Has anyone tried
> this?
>
Trying to centrifuge a 25 litre carboy sounds intriguing, but highly
impractical. Visions of wine splattered everywhere.....


> --
> This sig free text brought to you by the letters s, i & g

Bob wrote:
> "Goat Tosser" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The voices in the head of "Ray Calvert" > caused
>>Ray Calvert to write in
om:
>>
>>
>>>It is a mater of style. I probably rack a lot less frequently than
>>>many others. I will rack a month or two after fermentation finishes.
>>>Then I try to wait until it pretty much clears. this may take 2 or 3
>>>months or it may take 5 months. After this racking I fine it if
>>
>>
>>This brings up the interesting issue of centrifuging. Has anyone tried
>>this?
>>
>
> Trying to centrifuge a 25 litre carboy sounds intriguing, but highly
> impractical. Visions of wine splattered everywhere.....
>
>
>
>>--
>>This sig free text brought to you by the letters s, i & g
>
>
>
Actually, it's easier than you might imagine. Rack the wine into two
liter bottles, cap them, and put them in the washing machine and spin
them. It takes about a half an hour to separate the wine from the gross
lees after settling for a day or so. This is a technique that was
posted to this group a while back by Tom S, IIRC. If you have an old
washer from which you can remove the brake mechanism it will eliminate
standing next to it and pushing the button every five minutes.

hth

Frank

"joe rosati" > wrote in message
newsUmXd.84927$sR5.71120@trndny05...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I am new to wine making and been having a lot of fun doing it.
> Have made a couple of enjoyable batches.
>
> Once I have my must racked off into the secondary fermentor,
> is it really necessary to rack it off several more times?
> It would seem that all the dead yeast and grape matter are
> going to settle to the bottom anyway before I bottle it. Exposing
> the must to air during the process opens the door further for oxygen
> and vinegar yeast contamination.
> Why rack it again?

BINGO! I rack from the primary carboy when bubbling stops. Then I rack
from the secondary to a bucket to add sorbate and bottle when the wine in
the secondary is clear and stable. This business of racking six times is
crazy IMO.
Bob
--

Heroes always bleed, but heroes never cry,
heroes always get the best girl, and then die..."
- Gary Numan- "A Dream of Siam"

>
> Thanks for the anticipated response
>
> Joe
>
>

I agree with you, it is crazy to rack six times. But I've done it with one
maybe two of the wines I've made in the past 4 years. I guess it's a matter
of perspective - I would rather rack a wine to help it clear, than use a
fining agent. Some wines don't clear on their own, but if sediment keeps
falling out, sometimes it may be better to rack. Then too, I didn't rack
that good when I first started making wine, but now I'm pretty good at it. A
lot of it has to do with the wine; if it is clear, I won't rack, but if
there's a lot of debris, I will. Now, having said that I do make only
country wines, not grape wines or kits. Its my understanding from reading
other posts, that some wines benefit from sitting on fine lees. I've never
thought the wines I make benefit from that....
Darlene
Wisconsin

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> "joe rosati" > wrote in message
> newsUmXd.84927$sR5.71120@trndny05...
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> I am new to wine making and been having a lot of fun doing it.
>> Have made a couple of enjoyable batches.
>>
>> Once I have my must racked off into the secondary fermentor,
>> is it really necessary to rack it off several more times?
>> It would seem that all the dead yeast and grape matter are
>> going to settle to the bottom anyway before I bottle it. Exposing
>> the must to air during the process opens the door further for oxygen
>> and vinegar yeast contamination.
>> Why rack it again?
>
> BINGO! I rack from the primary carboy when bubbling stops. Then I rack
> from the secondary to a bucket to add sorbate and bottle when the wine in
> the secondary is clear and stable. This business of racking six times is
> crazy IMO.
> Bob
> --
>
> Heroes always bleed, but heroes never cry,
> heroes always get the best girl, and then die..."
> - Gary Numan- "A Dream of Siam"
>
>>
>> Thanks for the anticipated response
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>
>

Many believe it is detrimental to leave wine in contact with the lees
too long as it may pick up off-flavors and such. Here's one experts
opinion:

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/racking.asp

Some say the rule of thumb is rack at least once every six months which
I don't do. I was told by a very knowledgable winemaker that if the
wine is "green" tasting that racking it more often will help it along
faster. I seem to agree.

Bob

I follow Ray's procedure pretty much, I never rack on a schedule. Bob
does make a good point on the 'green' wines though. In other words I
rack if I think the wine needs it. I determine that by sedimentation
or rarely, taste.

Joe

Miker,

I do caution against leaving wine and lees in still contact too long
(more than three months and the wine enters a danger zone caused by
dead yeast cells breaking down). But I also say on the same page that
you can leave wine on the lees long past that time if you stir the lees
every week or so.

I also say on that page that it is not necessary that the interval
between rackings be 30 days, 45 days or 60 days, but it should not be
less than three weeks. I stand by that, even though many of my recipes
say to rack the wine every 30 days, 45 days, or 60 days until no new
sediment forms during the next interval. The reason for the seeming
inconsistency is that the recipes are written for those who have not
yet graduated from cook to chef. Cooks follow recipes. Chefs create
them.

If you need a recipe, then follow it. Once you start making wine from
knowledge rather than rote, you will rack when you think the wine needs
it. Even beginners can do this, but they tend to make mistakes when
they first start beinging independent. That's okay too. We've all
made plenty of mistakes.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

On 14 Mar 2005 17:18:48 -0800, "Jack Keller" >
wrote:

>Miker,
>
>I do caution against leaving wine and lees in still contact too long
>(more than three months and the wine enters a danger zone caused by
>dead yeast cells breaking down).

<snip>

>Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
>http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

So: another question. I have just finished cold stabilization after
bentonite fining (PG, Riesling, Gewurtz). (When someone left the
garage door open at 3 deg. F it got almost _too_ stable (solid).
Pretty ice planes inside, though)

I remember reading someones opinion that the K-Bitartarate crystals
(of which there are plenty) would re-desolve upon warming up. But I am
trying to be a racking minimalist.

1. Can the crystals be expected to re-desolve?

2. The bentonite "lees" are properly tamped down by the KB. The wine
was nearly clear when racked and fined. Would there be yeast under
there that would chew on itself and go bad?

If the answer to both of the above is false then I intend to leave the
wine alone until bottling. It is all clear now except for the fact
that the laser pointer shows a bit of a beam.

Art Schubert
Traverse City, Michigan

Art Schubert wrote "I remember reading someones opinion that the
K-Bitartarate crystals
(of which there are plenty) would re-desolve upon warming up. But I am
trying to be a racking minimalist.
> 1. Can the crystals be expected to re-desolve?
> 2. The bentonite "lees" are properly tamped down by the KB. The wine
> was nearly clear when racked and fined. Would there be yeast under
> there that would chew on itself and go bad?
>
Art - If the wine warms the some of the K bitartrate will dissolve. I would
rack while the wine is cold. Like you say K bitartrate has settled over the
bentonite lees. You will be less likely to kick up the lees now. You get
the most out of your cold stabilization that way.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Miker,

I do caution against leaving wine and lees in still contact too long
(more than three months and the wine enters a danger zone caused by
dead yeast cells breaking down). But I also say on the same page that
you can leave wine on the lees long past that time if you stir the lees
every week or so.

I also say on that page that it is not necessary that the interval
between rackings be 30 days, 45 days or 60 days, but it should not be
less than three weeks. I stand by that, even though many of my recipes
say to rack the wine every 30 days, 45 days, or 60 days until no new
sediment forms during the next interval. The reason for the seeming
inconsistency is that the recipes are written for those who have not
yet graduated from cook to chef. Cooks follow recipes. Chefs create
them.

If you need a recipe, then follow it. Once you start making wine from
knowledge rather than rote, you will rack when you think the wine needs
it. Even beginners can do this, but they tend to make mistakes when
they first start beinging independent. That's okay too. We've all
made plenty of mistakes.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Joe,

Depending on the wine style you may choose to leave the wine on the sediment
for a longer period of time with some than you would with others. The
characteristics of wines are influenced by the dead yeast and this is an
undesirable effect when you want fruitiness retained and/or avoid
malo-latctic fermentation. Iin these types of wine (also known as aromatic
wines such as riesling, gewurztraminer and several others), the reason for
racking is primarily to reduce contact with the dead (autolysed) yeast and
avoid their effects on the fragrance and taste of the wine.

A reasonable number of rackings will not over-oxidize wine if the racking is
done correctly (ie not pouring or splashing) and appropriate sulfite levels
are maintained.

Glen Duff
--------------

"joe rosati" > wrote in message
newsUmXd.84927$sR5.71120@trndny05...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I am new to wine making and been having a lot of fun doing it.
> Have made a couple of enjoyable batches.
>
> Once I have my must racked off into the secondary fermentor,
> is it really necessary to rack it off several more times?
> It would seem that all the dead yeast and grape matter are
> going to settle to the bottom anyway before I bottle it. Exposing
> the must to air during the process opens the door further for oxygen
> and vinegar yeast contamination.
> Why rack it again?
>
> Thanks for the anticipated response
>
> Joe
>

Glen,
That brings up an interesting point. I decided a few years ago to be
very careful when racking. I add my sulfite into the fresh carboy
first, then I use two racking canes, one in the fresh carboy and one
in the one I'm racking from. That gets the wine into the fresh carboy
very gently, there is no turbulence or splashing.

The reason I bring it up is I have a lot more trouble with disolved CO2
now than I ever had before. (There is another thread going about
dissolved CO2 issues.)

I don't think this racking process has helped me at all since I did not
have oxidized wines before. I started it because I thought my whites
were too golden in color for young wines, I don't think they are any
lighter either.

Next year I will probably ferment my whites in carboys, I always say
I'm going to do that and never get around to it. My color problem, if
it is one, may be related to the way I ferment in open (covered) pails.
These are good wines, I'm not saying they are defective. If anything,
they are too thin. I think that is from overcropping though and I have
no control over that. I just blend in some northern varieties, it
usally fixes me up.

I'm probably not going to abandon this process but I may alter it.
Once I know the wine is dry by RS testing, I may do a syringe test for
dissolved CO2. (It bubbles like crazy when you pull the vacuum; it's
hokey but reproducable and free...) If I have dissolved CO2, I'll not
use the second cane; just route the hose so the wine splays off the
side of the carboy as it enters. It's not as violent as splashing, but
it does cause a little turbulence.

Joe


> A reasonable number of rackings will not over-oxidize wine if the
racking is
> done correctly (ie not pouring or splashing) and appropriate sulfite
levels
> are maintained.

Joe,

I have the SAME problem. To much C02 YEARS after the primary is done.
WInemakers that use barrels don't seem to have the problem because
barrels "leak" air. It would be interesting to know what headspace in a
carboy is equivalent to barrel aging because there is no way the
standard 1/2" will let the wine age and breath like a barrel.

Bob


Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Glen,
> That brings up an interesting point. I decided a few years ago to be
> very careful when racking. I add my sulfite into the fresh carboy
> first, then I use two racking canes, one in the fresh carboy and one
> in the one I'm racking from. That gets the wine into the fresh
carboy
> very gently, there is no turbulence or splashing.
>
> The reason I bring it up is I have a lot more trouble with disolved
CO2
> now than I ever had before. (There is another thread going about
> dissolved CO2 issues.)
>
> I don't think this racking process has helped me at all since I did
not
> have oxidized wines before. I started it because I thought my whites
> were too golden in color for young wines, I don't think they are any
> lighter either.
>
> Next year I will probably ferment my whites in carboys, I always say
> I'm going to do that and never get around to it. My color problem,
if
> it is one, may be related to the way I ferment in open (covered)
pails.
> These are good wines, I'm not saying they are defective. If
anything,
> they are too thin. I think that is from overcropping though and I
have
> no control over that. I just blend in some northern varieties, it
> usally fixes me up.
>
> I'm probably not going to abandon this process but I may alter it.
> Once I know the wine is dry by RS testing, I may do a syringe test
for
> dissolved CO2. (It bubbles like crazy when you pull the vacuum; it's
> hokey but reproducable and free...) If I have dissolved CO2, I'll
not
> use the second cane; just route the hose so the wine splays off the
> side of the carboy as it enters. It's not as violent as splashing,
but
> it does cause a little turbulence.
>
> Joe
>
>
> > A reasonable number of rackings will not over-oxidize wine if the
> racking is
> > done correctly (ie not pouring or splashing) and appropriate
sulfite
> levels
> > are maintained.