> From: " >
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> Date: 5 Feb 2005 18:12:11 -0800
> Subject: google group for grape growing
>
> i'm in san diego county and planting vinifera this month. i've read on
> the yahoo groups. anyone know of any other discussion on line about
> small vineyards?
>
> thanks,
>
> CC
>
Hey CC, I am also in San Diego and just planted my first vinifera last
month. One syrah is already breaking bud!

I had trouble finding people to answer grape growing questions on this
newsgroup or on the gardening newsgroups but I was given the advice to buy
Jeff Cox's " From Vines to Wines," which will give you some basic
information and has ideas for trellising systems etc...

You could try the county farm adviser but small vineyards don't seem to
warrant much attention at that office and I was disappointed with the level
of help or interest. If you don't live in Temeculah, you are basically on
your own.

I would research sites from the wine growing regions of Northern California
like UC Davis, or some of the commercial vineyard suppliers have some good
information.

Most people here seem to buy their grape juice instead of growing it and are
more concerned with the end product than the juice production.

I did get some good advice from a Ramona vinifera grower who posts here so
if you have specific questions, he may chime in to help you.

What are you growing and where did you get your stock? I'm in Jamul and
these are my first grapevines.

Hi - i am planting 75 mourvedre, 25 grenache and 25 counoise next
month. my first vineyard. i am in alpine at 2400' with se exposure on a
slope of decomposed granite. about 30 miles from the pacific ocean.

i am getting them from tablas vineyards through nova wines. i have
several million questions about everything. the decomposed granite,
amendments pruning and especially pests.

right now i am dealing with gophers and preparing to fence my space. i
am four hundred yards from the national forest boundary, a national
forest of sage and scrub that was incinerated in the cedar fires. no
sign that the deer have returned but beside gophers there are racoons,
opposums, rabbits and a sky full of birds.

jamul is beautiful. where did you get your syrah?

Coleman

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi - i am planting 75 mourvedre, 25 grenache and 25 counoise next
> month. my first vineyard. i am in alpine at 2400' with se exposure on a
> slope of decomposed granite. about 30 miles from the pacific ocean.
>
> i am getting them from tablas vineyards through nova wines. i have
> several million questions about everything. the decomposed granite,
> amendments pruning and especially pests.
>
> right now i am dealing with gophers and preparing to fence my space. i
> am four hundred yards from the national forest boundary, a national
> forest of sage and scrub that was incinerated in the cedar fires. no
> sign that the deer have returned but beside gophers there are racoons,
> opposums, rabbits and a sky full of birds.
>
> jamul is beautiful. where did you get your syrah?
>
> Coleman

Coleman,
Several members of the San Diego Amateur Winemaking Society are experienced
grape growers, and they love to talk about growing wine grapes.
More info here
http://www.sdaws.org/
--
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

I got my stock from Bay Laurel Nursery. They have the common types on their
own roots and are online at www.baylaurelnursery.com.

My site is very similar to yours. 2700 ft. elevation, decomposed granite,
south facing slope about 25 miles inland. God, I love it out here! I have
had problems with gophers but found that a three foot high hardware cloth
buried two feet deep with one foot above the soil line has worked so far.
The rabbits are kept out by regular garden fencing. No deer problems here.
We have lots of bobcats in the area and coyotes but they don't seem to
bother anything.

I put up a homemade barn owl nestbox to control the gophers. There are many
sites with online plans. I am not a big fan of poisoning the animals around
here since they were here first. Gophers can get through chicken wire with
no problem.

The other guy who answered you post, "LUM" gave me some great advice a few
years back. He would be the guy to ask for advice. Happy growing!

> From: " >
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> Date: 7 Feb 2005 09:09:45 -0800
> Subject: google group for grape growing
>
> Hi - i am planting 75 mourvedre, 25 grenache and 25 counoise next
> month. my first vineyard. i am in alpine at 2400' with se exposure on a
> slope of decomposed granite. about 30 miles from the pacific ocean.
>
> i am getting them from tablas vineyards through nova wines. i have
> several million questions about everything. the decomposed granite,
> amendments pruning and especially pests.
>
> right now i am dealing with gophers and preparing to fence my space. i
> am four hundred yards from the national forest boundary, a national
> forest of sage and scrub that was incinerated in the cedar fires. no
> sign that the deer have returned but beside gophers there are racoons,
> opposums, rabbits and a sky full of birds.
>
> jamul is beautiful. where did you get your syrah?
>
> Coleman
>

did you amend the granite before planting? the local nurseries told me
that DG is essentially sterile even alkaline and wouldn't support the
vines. they also said to chicken wire each vine. did you hardware cloth
each vine?

i will build the owl house. they are interesting birds. thanks for the
information.

> From: " >
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> Date: 7 Feb 2005 19:01:34 -0800
> Subject: google group for grape growing
>
> did you amend the granite before planting? the local nurseries told me
> that DG is essentially sterile even alkaline and wouldn't support the
> vines. they also said to chicken wire each vine. did you hardware cloth
> each vine?
>
> i will build the owl house. they are interesting birds. thanks for the
> information.
>
The area I planted in is at the top of the slope with about 30" of a
gravelly topsoil before it hits the rocks and clay. According to the Jeff
Cox book, you should have 36"-70" of topsoil before you hit any hardpan or
solid rock since the grape roots don't go down much past that.

Wine grapes in general like "difficult" soil and seem to do best with
infertile, slightly alkaline soil with lots of rocks for drainage. The goal
here is not to grow lush, happy vines but to grow stressed vines which will
cause smaller berry size and concentrated flavors. Your local nursery might
have been refering to table grapes which need different conditions since you
want large berries in that case.

I recently had the luxury of traveling to Southern France and some of the
vineyards appeared to be planted in gravel with a little soil. I think your
site sounds perfect for wine grapes as long as there is some moisture
retentive material among the rocks. I would not add amendments unless you
talk to a local vineyard owner and he/she says it is necessary. Local
nurseries will not have enough expertise in this specific area.

According to the Jeff Cox book, you should prepare you planting area by
digging a trench 3 feet deep by three feet wide just to loosen the soil. No
amendments needed. Let the area sit over winter and plant in the spring.
This is the ideal case but not feasible in some situations. I just dug
holes about 2.5ft. deep and about 2 feet wide. The vines came about a week
later and I was ready to go. I am just experimenting at this stage so don't
follow my example. I would recommend you purchase some of the good books
out there for more expert advice.

Yes, I put hardware cloth around each vine with about an 18 inch
circumferance. I can guarantee you the chicken wire WILL NOT WORK! My
nursery recommended the same thing to me and my garden lasted two seasons
and then the gophers came and started working an area outside the fence. It
took them about two weeks before they were able to push through the wire and
then it was all over. No more garden. It is a lot of work to put wire down
two feet deep and then have it last only two years. Hardware cloth is the
answer. Talk to LUM on this one. He has a vineyard and can tell you what
he has found to be a cost effective gopher deterrant. I only have 6 vines
at present so this was an easy solution.

I can't stress enough how important it is for you to contact a local
winegrape grower. I went to Temeculah, did some winetasting, and asked lots
of questions to the owners. Since you are about to plant a significant
number of vines, a proper start now will save you many headaches in the
future. The link that LUM provided will put you in touch with the local
experts and, perhaps, you could pay one of them to come to your site and
give you advice?

One last word on gophers, they dig everywhere but they don't kill
everything. Some of my perennials survived like iris and statice. It may
be the case that gophers will dig around grapevines but not eat the roots of
the grapes. Gophers typically stay in the top 8" of soil eating tender
roots. Your grapes will root very deeply and have tough roots that may not
be to the liking of gophers. Gophers will also aerate the soil and increase
water penetration which will benefit the grapes. So I don't know how much
we really need to worry about them. Only time will tell! Happy growing.

Not sure I agree with much here besides the gopher problem. Gophers
don't seem to bother grapevines and the chicken wire is a lesson in
futility. I'll challange anyone to show me land that had 36-70" of top
soil. He might not know what top soil is. BTW, Nurseries are a GREAT
place to learn how to grow plants, which contrary to some , grapevines
are. Stressing vines is a practice only followed in an area where they
have no problems with winter temps. Ask any grapevine nursery how much
they stress their vines and I'm sure NONE will answer that they do.
Young vines are stressed enough. They need to be given an environment
to FLOURISH. Theoretically, you shouldn't be getting a crop for at
least 2 years maybe 4 so make sure the first years are STRESS FREE.
BTW, Jeff Cox's book , IMO, deals with viticulture for the WEST coast.
His techniques are not practiced where the climate isn't as ideal as
California. Yes, France stresses their vines but look at their winter
temps! If you took the stressing "theory" and transfered it to
Minnesota you'd end up with vineyard of dead vines.

Bob


> >
> > did you amend the granite before planting? the local nurseries told
me
> > that DG is essentially sterile even alkaline and wouldn't support
the
> > vines. they also said to chicken wire each vine. did you hardware
cloth
> > each vine?
> >
> > i will build the owl house. they are interesting birds. thanks for
the
> > information.
> >
> The area I planted in is at the top of the slope with about 30" of a
> gravelly topsoil before it hits the rocks and clay. According to the
Jeff
> Cox book, you should have 36"-70" of topsoil before you hit any
hardpan or
> solid rock since the grape roots don't go down much past that.
>
> Wine grapes in general like "difficult" soil and seem to do best with
> infertile, slightly alkaline soil with lots of rocks for drainage.
The goal
> here is not to grow lush, happy vines but to grow stressed vines
which will
> cause smaller berry size and concentrated flavors. Your local
nursery might
> have been refering to table grapes which need different conditions
since you
> want large berries in that case.
>
> I recently had the luxury of traveling to Southern France and some of
the
> vineyards appeared to be planted in gravel with a little soil. I
think your
> site sounds perfect for wine grapes as long as there is some moisture
> retentive material among the rocks. I would not add amendments
unless you
> talk to a local vineyard owner and he/she says it is necessary.
Local
> nurseries will not have enough expertise in this specific area.
>
> According to the Jeff Cox book, you should prepare you planting area
by
> digging a trench 3 feet deep by three feet wide just to loosen the
soil. No
> amendments needed. Let the area sit over winter and plant in the
spring.
> This is the ideal case but not feasible in some situations. I just
dug
> holes about 2.5ft. deep and about 2 feet wide. The vines came about
a week
> later and I was ready to go. I am just experimenting at this stage
so don't
> follow my example. I would recommend you purchase some of the good
books
> out there for more expert advice.
>
> Yes, I put hardware cloth around each vine with about an 18 inch
> circumferance. I can guarantee you the chicken wire WILL NOT WORK!
My
> nursery recommended the same thing to me and my garden lasted two
seasons
> and then the gophers came and started working an area outside the
fence. It
> took them about two weeks before they were able to push through the
wire and
> then it was all over. No more garden. It is a lot of work to put
wire down
> two feet deep and then have it last only two years. Hardware cloth
is the
> answer. Talk to LUM on this one. He has a vineyard and can tell you
what
> he has found to be a cost effective gopher deterrant. I only have 6
vines
> at present so this was an easy solution.
>
> I can't stress enough how important it is for you to contact a local
> winegrape grower. I went to Temeculah, did some winetasting, and
asked lots
> of questions to the owners. Since you are about to plant a
significant
> number of vines, a proper start now will save you many headaches in
the
> future. The link that LUM provided will put you in touch with the
local
> experts and, perhaps, you could pay one of them to come to your site
and
> give you advice?
>
> One last word on gophers, they dig everywhere but they don't kill
> everything. Some of my perennials survived like iris and statice.
It may
> be the case that gophers will dig around grapevines but not eat the
roots of
> the grapes. Gophers typically stay in the top 8" of soil eating
tender
> roots. Your grapes will root very deeply and have tough roots that
may not
> be to the liking of gophers. Gophers will also aerate the soil and
increase
> water penetration which will benefit the grapes. So I don't know how
much
> we really need to worry about them. Only time will tell! Happy
growing.

Bob, I don't think you caught the earlier part of this thread but we are
both from Southern California in the same general vacinity, so Jeff Cox's
book suits us just fine.

The comment about me not knowing what topsoil is... well that was just
unnecessary. The 36"-70" number came directly from Cox's book, not my
number. The property I live on is undeveloped, natural land that has had
thousands of years of organic material built up on it. This is not a
housing development where all the ground is scraped free of topsoil during
the building process.

I still disagree with you about the stressed vines but agree with you that
the first years should be stress free since you are attempting to get the
plant off to a good start and don't care about the fruit at this point.
Overly fertilized or overly watered winegrapevines will produce rampant
growth at the expense of the fruit and the fruit will often contain higher
levels of water than wanted for winemaking. Rampant growth also leads to
mildew problems and bunch rot since the air flow becomes restricted in an
overgrown vine.

Like I said in my earlier post, I encourage anyone to doublecheck my
information with the experts. However, I don't believe that an average or
even better-than-average nursery would have much experience with wine grapes
and I don't recommend going down to your local Home Depot garden center with
any great expectations of expert advice. Contact your local people like
the farm adviser or master gardener association for specific information
pertaining to your area.

> From:
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> Date: 9 Feb 2005 05:44:51 -0800
> Subject: google group for grape growing
>
>
> Not sure I agree with much here besides the gopher problem. Gophers
> don't seem to bother grapevines and the chicken wire is a lesson in
> futility. I'll challange anyone to show me land that had 36-70" of top
> soil. He might not know what top soil is. BTW, Nurseries are a GREAT
> place to learn how to grow plants, which contrary to some , grapevines
> are. Stressing vines is a practice only followed in an area where they
> have no problems with winter temps. Ask any grapevine nursery how much
> they stress their vines and I'm sure NONE will answer that they do.
> Young vines are stressed enough. They need to be given an environment
> to FLOURISH. Theoretically, you shouldn't be getting a crop for at
> least 2 years maybe 4 so make sure the first years are STRESS FREE.
> BTW, Jeff Cox's book , IMO, deals with viticulture for the WEST coast.
> His techniques are not practiced where the climate isn't as ideal as
> California. Yes, France stresses their vines but look at their winter
> temps! If you took the stressing "theory" and transfered it to
> Minnesota you'd end up with vineyard of dead vines.
>
> Bob

Fig,

My comment about top soil was directed at Cox not you. I read your post
and I saw that it said Cox said that. I think we're on the same page.
Your post never really got into at what point in time you thought
stressing the vines was good for the juice. All I was doing is making
sure that anyone that read the thread wasn't misunderstanding how to
START the vines. I'm totally for great wine but I think the average
grower rushes things to the detriment of the vines. I think you'll find
that rich clay like soil will cause more harm to vines than water. I
personally have never noticed vines growing out of control on well
drained soil. If the soil drains well I don't think you can over water
them. The soil will never become waterlogged. Trust me, I know this for
a fact. I have MULTIPLE varieties growing in my vineyard on very sandy
soil and I water ALOT and NEVER had "vigor" problems or mildew
problems. As far as stressing the vines the best advice I would give
anyone is to not do it until AT LEAST the 5th year. I'm waiting until
they reach their "peak" years before I start stressing them and that is
10 years. My wine tastes fine even with all the water and I've haven't
seen any problems with berry size.

Bob
figaro wrote:
> Bob, I don't think you caught the earlier part of this thread but we
are
> both from Southern California in the same general vacinity, so Jeff
Cox's
> book suits us just fine.
>
> The comment about me not knowing what topsoil is... well that was
just
> unnecessary. The 36"-70" number came directly from Cox's book, not
my
> number. The property I live on is undeveloped, natural land that
has had
> thousands of years of organic material built up on it. This is not a
> housing development where all the ground is scraped free of topsoil
during
> the building process.
>
> I still disagree with you about the stressed vines but agree with you
that
> the first years should be stress free since you are attempting to get
the
> plant off to a good start and don't care about the fruit at this
point.
> Overly fertilized or overly watered winegrapevines will produce
rampant
> growth at the expense of the fruit and the fruit will often contain
higher
> levels of water than wanted for winemaking. Rampant growth also
leads to
> mildew problems and bunch rot since the air flow becomes restricted
in an
> overgrown vine.
>
> Like I said in my earlier post, I encourage anyone to doublecheck my
> information with the experts. However, I don't believe that an
average or
> even better-than-average nursery would have much experience with wine
grapes
> and I don't recommend going down to your local Home Depot garden
center with
> any great expectations of expert advice. Contact your local people
like
> the farm adviser or master gardener association for specific
information
> pertaining to your area.
>
> > From:
> > Organization: http://groups.google.com
> > Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> > Date: 9 Feb 2005 05:44:51 -0800
> > Subject: google group for grape growing
> >
> >
> > Not sure I agree with much here besides the gopher problem. Gophers
> > don't seem to bother grapevines and the chicken wire is a lesson in
> > futility. I'll challange anyone to show me land that had 36-70" of
top
> > soil. He might not know what top soil is. BTW, Nurseries are a
GREAT
> > place to learn how to grow plants, which contrary to some ,
grapevines
> > are. Stressing vines is a practice only followed in an area where
they
> > have no problems with winter temps. Ask any grapevine nursery how
much
> > they stress their vines and I'm sure NONE will answer that they do.
> > Young vines are stressed enough. They need to be given an
environment
> > to FLOURISH. Theoretically, you shouldn't be getting a crop for at
> > least 2 years maybe 4 so make sure the first years are STRESS FREE.
> > BTW, Jeff Cox's book , IMO, deals with viticulture for the WEST
coast.
> > His techniques are not practiced where the climate isn't as ideal
as
> > California. Yes, France stresses their vines but look at their
winter
> > temps! If you took the stressing "theory" and transfered it to
> > Minnesota you'd end up with vineyard of dead vines.
> >
> > Bob

Forgot to comment on your nursery comment. I'm not talking Home Depot
Garden Center , I'm talking people that grow plants for a living. ANY
plant. I talked to the owner of a VERY reputable nursery owner in the
Northeast about growing vines. His vines usually come with about 24
inches of roots on one year vines. I'm not going to mention any names
but I think alot of people know who I'm talking about. In the
conversation he basically said , and I'm paraphasing, that he does
EXACTLY what most gardeners do to grow any other plant. Drained soil,
drip irrigation, raised beds, mulch etc.... He also said a big vine is
a healthy vine. At NO time did he mention stressing the vine. I think
if you do some research, you'll find that some of the big wineries in
Napa and Sonoma are abandoning their "scorched earth" policies of old
and going more with an "organic" approach to growing. When I say
organic I mean more natural stuff like mulch and grass middles, etc....
Even some of Winkler's book is outdated with it's principles of
viticulture.

Bob

Thanks for the clarification.

My experience with my favorite VERY reputable nursery was different from
yours. My nursery is run by master gardeners and is highly respected in San
Diego, which you can probably guess, has some of the best nurseries in the
country since we are major growers here. I tried to find information on
rootstocks and specifics on gopher control and was given incorrect answers
and unsuccessful referals, my farm adviser could not answer my questions
either and appeared to be bothered by a homeowner asking questions, how dare
I waste his time, and the master gardener hotline referred me to Northern
California where most of the grapes are grown. San Diego is not a big wine
producing area yet and it appears to be off the radar for most nurseries
down here.

I have nothing but respect for nurserypeople and admire their breadth of
knowledge but they deal mainly with ornamental horticulture. I will
continue to advise people to go to the experts who actually own vineyards
and have personal experience with grapevines and making wine.

Let me say again that I have no experience in growing wine grapes and you
surely know more about this from experience, but Cox's assertions that
smaller grapes contain a higher percentage of the flavor inducing skins
makes a lot of sense to me. As an herb gardener, I know for a fact that
stressing herbs creates a far superior product. If I overwater my sage,
thyme, or rosemary, I am left with a product that is not much better than
grass clippings at flavoring food. During a particularly drought stressed
year, my crop will be so fragrant that I find people asking me "What's that
wonderful smell" when I go out to socialize. The sage, in particular, seems
to thrive on stress and will often die out earlier if watered like any other
garden plant. There are many other examples of plants in horticulture that
do not respond to the seemingly logical assumption that all plants do better
with better care, regular water, and regular fertilizer. Lavender is
another great example of this type of plant. Therefore, I would not
recommend watering and fertilizing wine grapes, after they have reached
maturity and you are trying to get quality fruit, the same way that you
would care for a table grape vine.

I grew up in the northeast, New Jersey and Upstate New York-finger lakes
region, and it took me many years to understand this Mediterranean climate.
It is hard for people in cold, wet areas of the country to understand how
plants grow out here. I am still in disbelief that the native scrub, oaks
and manzanita go 6 months out of the year without a drop of water. Not one
drop. Mediterranean crops are far more resilient that I thought possible
and my definition of stress is probably somewhat different than yours. I do
not ascribe to plant 'torture' or go around beating grapevines with a broom
but the natural stressors of drought, intense sun, and lack of nutrients
seem to be the equivalent of good care, adequate water, and fertilization
for most other plants in other areas of the country.

Thanks for sharing you difference of opinion. I will try to make it more
clear, in the future, that I am speaking from the perspective of a
Mediterranean climate and what works for me may not work for others in
different parts of the country.

> From:
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> Date: 9 Feb 2005 17:33:03 -0800
> Subject: google group for grape growing
>
> Forgot to comment on your nursery comment. I'm not talking Home Depot
> Garden Center , I'm talking people that grow plants for a living. ANY
> plant. I talked to the owner of a VERY reputable nursery owner in the
> Northeast about growing vines. His vines usually come with about 24
> inches of roots on one year vines. I'm not going to mention any names
> but I think alot of people know who I'm talking about. In the
> conversation he basically said , and I'm paraphasing, that he does
> EXACTLY what most gardeners do to grow any other plant. Drained soil,
> drip irrigation, raised beds, mulch etc.... He also said a big vine is
> a healthy vine. At NO time did he mention stressing the vine. I think
> if you do some research, you'll find that some of the big wineries in
> Napa and Sonoma are abandoning their "scorched earth" policies of old
> and going more with an "organic" approach to growing. When I say
> organic I mean more natural stuff like mulch and grass middles, etc....
> Even some of Winkler's book is outdated with it's principles of
> viticulture.
>
> Bob
>

Dear Figaro - Master Gardener programs are a wonderful asset for any
community. But, unless one of the Master Gardeners at your nursery actually
grows grapes and combats the various problems you have mentioned they are
just quoting from a grape growing text. I know this first hand. My wife is
a Johnson County, KS Master Gardener. Being part of the greater Kansas City
area this organization is very large and has lots of expertise. But, also
because we are in Kansas there is little knowledge about grape growing in
the organization. My advice is to locate a commercial vineyard near your
home. Go there and meet the growers. Make friends. Listen to how they
deal with the problems you face. People who actually grow grapes for a
living can be great mentors...I should know. One of the members of our KC
Cellarmaster Club owns a vineyard and makes estate wines sold at his
vineyard. He knows things that are only known by one who has done it for
years and has made all the mistakes. Good luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"figaro" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
> My experience with my favorite VERY reputable nursery was different from
> yours. My nursery is run by master gardeners and is highly respected in
> San
> Diego

I agree completely, and this was exactly my advice to the original poster.

> From: "William Frazier" >
> Organization: AT&T Worldnet
> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:59:51 GMT
> Subject: google group for grape growing
>
> Dear Figaro - Master Gardener programs are a wonderful asset for any
> community. But, unless one of the Master Gardeners at your nursery actually
> grows grapes and combats the various problems you have mentioned they are
> just quoting from a grape growing text. I know this first hand. My wife is
> a Johnson County, KS Master Gardener. Being part of the greater Kansas City
> area this organization is very large and has lots of expertise. But, also
> because we are in Kansas there is little knowledge about grape growing in
> the organization. My advice is to locate a commercial vineyard near your
> home. Go there and meet the growers. Make friends. Listen to how they
> deal with the problems you face. People who actually grow grapes for a
> living can be great mentors...I should know. One of the members of our KC
> Cellarmaster Club owns a vineyard and makes estate wines sold at his
> vineyard. He knows things that are only known by one who has done it for
> years and has made all the mistakes. Good luck.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
> "figaro" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Thanks for the clarification.
>>
>> My experience with my favorite VERY reputable nursery was different from
>> yours. My nursery is run by master gardeners and is highly respected in
>> San
>> Diego
>
>

Why the hell are you guys even posting questions here if your gonna
tell someone who's kind enough to respond that you know what to do????
Get a grip.

Bob

figaro wrote:
> I agree completely, and this was exactly my advice to the original
poster.
>
> > From: "William Frazier" >
> > Organization: AT&T Worldnet
> > Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> > Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:59:51 GMT
> > Subject: google group for grape growing
> >
> > Dear Figaro - Master Gardener programs are a wonderful asset for
any
> > community. But, unless one of the Master Gardeners at your nursery
actually
> > grows grapes and combats the various problems you have mentioned
they are
> > just quoting from a grape growing text. I know this first hand.
My wife is
> > a Johnson County, KS Master Gardener. Being part of the greater
Kansas City
> > area this organization is very large and has lots of expertise.
But, also
> > because we are in Kansas there is little knowledge about grape
growing in
> > the organization. My advice is to locate a commercial vineyard
near your
> > home. Go there and meet the growers. Make friends. Listen to how
they
> > deal with the problems you face. People who actually grow grapes
for a
> > living can be great mentors...I should know. One of the members of
our KC
> > Cellarmaster Club owns a vineyard and makes estate wines sold at
his
> > vineyard. He knows things that are only known by one who has done
it for
> > years and has made all the mistakes. Good luck.
> >
> > Bill Frazier
> > Olathe, Kansas USA
> >
> > "figaro" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Thanks for the clarification.
> >>
> >> My experience with my favorite VERY reputable nursery was
different from
> >> yours. My nursery is run by master gardeners and is highly
respected in
> >> San
> >> Diego
> >
> >

Bill,

Stop trying to pat yourself on the back because you grow grapes. There
is no mysterious secret to growing them and any "master gardener"
should know WHERE TO GO to get the info. That's what makes people
masters, not that they know everything but whether they know where to
go and find out. Every problem I've ever had with grapes happen to ALOT
of other plants. Nutrient defiecienies, fungus, crown gall, pests
etc..... If I were to have taken your advise and went to the only
vineyard in my area that grows commercially, my vines would be dead.
Their vineyard is an abortion. Trust me , I know. I'd give it about 1
more year and EVERY vine is gonna be dead. So your advise while getting
YOU off the hook doesn't really apply in ALL cicumstances. I'd trust my
local plant people over the local commercial viticultrualist ANY TIME.
I'm not afraid to give my opinion on my experiences growing grapes,
which happen to be commercially and I 'm not one to give the cop out
answer of "check with the locals who grow them". ANYONE could give
that advise. I assume the posters here want OUR advise and OUR
experiences else they would they be posting here in the first place.
right?

Bob

BTW, figaro,

you annoyed me so much I just went through Cox's book and NO WHERE does
he mention TOP soil being 30-70" deep. You do indeed have ALOT to
learn.

Bob

"MASTER gardeners" are a GREAT source of information for grape growers.
I'd recommend anyone interested in growing ANYTHING to talk to them. If
they don't know anything about what you are doing they should know
where to get the info. Masters need not know everything just how to
find the right info on everything. If I used my "local" vineyard for
advice on viticulture my vines would already be dead. Our local
commercial vineyard is an abortion and I'd give it 1 more year and
they'll have no crop at all. Their spray program, weed control and
canopy management is non-existent. God forbid a newbie went there
looking to use them as an example. Additonally, advising questioners to
refer to their local vineyard does nothing to enhance this board. Thank
God the great winemakers here don't refer me to my local winery for
advice. I came HERE to get advice. I KNOW I can go to a winery and get
advice. Sending people to their local vineyards and Cooperative
extentions seems to be the "cool" answer around these parts but does
nothing for exchanging info on how WE go about successfully growing OUR
grapes . I for one am not afraid to share my POSITIVE experiences with
new growers and winemakers. I will continue to make EXACT
recommendations and not be pointing in several directions. If you don't
agree with my recommendation fine but DON'T try and show me up. Where
did your wife get her KC "master" gardeners license??? In a gumball
machine?

Bob

> From:
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> Date: 11 Feb 2005 10:54:18 -0800
> Subject: google group for grape growing
>
> BTW, figaro,
>
> you annoyed me so much I just went through Cox's book and NO WHERE does
> he mention TOP soil being 30-70" deep. You do indeed have ALOT to
> learn.
>
> Bob
>
Wow, Bob. Relax. I'm sorry I ****ed you off; it was not my intention. The
Cox reference, if I remember correctly, is when he is discussing his
personal experience with a master wine grape grower who refused him cuttings
of a specific clone until he had properly dug his trenches three feet deep
and wide and let it sit fallow over the winter. This master grower referred
to the topsoil numbers. It was a best case scenerio thing and I didn't mean
to suggest it was reality for most of us. I think it is somwhere in the
beginning when Cox is talking about his own vineyard.

I think you missed the original posters first couple of posts because my
advice was directed only at him/her. He/She is in San Diego county, as am
I, and the person I refered him/her to is Lum Eisenberg who is also in San
Diego county and one of the most knowledgeable people on this newsgroup and
knows San DIego viticulture better than most. It is a valid referral.

However, I have opinions and a ton of horticultural knowledge and I thought
I would give my advice to this fellow grower who appeared to need direction
in the area of grape growing in San Diego County. I just planted my first
grapes last month and he is expecting his first grapes shortly. I wanted to
make sure he had accurate information before he put in the vines because he
was planting upwards of 50 vines. It would be ashame to make mistakes right
off the bat. Hence the referal to Cox's book and to Lum. I appologize for
all the stress.

Excuse me for living Bob. Sorry to have stirred you up. Funny though,
seems like you just recently suggested visiting local vineyards to find out
about their spraying programs. Guess it's OK if you make the suggestion.

"Where did your wife get her KC "master" gardeners license??? In a gumball
machine?" Well Bob, here in Kansas people take courses from the County
Extension Agent to become Master Gardeners. Is it different where you live?

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Bill,
>
> Stop trying to pat yourself on the back because you grow grapes. There
> is no mysterious secret to growing them and any "master gardener"
> should know WHERE TO GO to get the info. That's what makes people
> masters, not that they know everything but whether they know where to
> go and find out. Every problem I've ever had with grapes happen to ALOT
> of other plants. Nutrient defiecienies, fungus, crown gall, pests
> etc..... If I were to have taken your advise and went to the only
> vineyard in my area that grows commercially, my vines would be dead.
> Their vineyard is an abortion. Trust me , I know. I'd give it about 1
> more year and EVERY vine is gonna be dead. So your advise while getting
> YOU off the hook doesn't really apply in ALL cicumstances. I'd trust my
> local plant people over the local commercial viticultrualist ANY TIME.
> I'm not afraid to give my opinion on my experiences growing grapes,
> which happen to be commercially and I 'm not one to give the cop out
> answer of "check with the locals who grow them". ANYONE could give
> that advise. I assume the posters here want OUR advise and OUR
> experiences else they would they be posting here in the first place.
> right?
>
> Bob
>

......Yaawwnn......

Steve Noobie
Oregon


On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:55:57 GMT, "William Frazier"
> wrote:

>Excuse me for living Bob. Sorry to have stirred you up. Funny though,
>seems like you just recently suggested visiting local vineyards to find out
>about their spraying programs. Guess it's OK if you make the suggestion.
>
>"Where did your wife get her KC "master" gardeners license??? In a gumball
>machine?" Well Bob, here in Kansas people take courses from the County
>Extension Agent to become Master Gardeners. Is it different where you live?
>
>Bill Frazier
>Olathe, Kansas
>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Bill,
>>
>> Stop trying to pat yourself on the back because you grow grapes. There
>> is no mysterious secret to growing them and any "master gardener"
>> should know WHERE TO GO to get the info. That's what makes people
>> masters, not that they know everything but whether they know where to
>> go and find out. Every problem I've ever had with grapes happen to ALOT
>> of other plants. Nutrient defiecienies, fungus, crown gall, pests
>> etc..... If I were to have taken your advise and went to the only
>> vineyard in my area that grows commercially, my vines would be dead.
>> Their vineyard is an abortion. Trust me , I know. I'd give it about 1
>> more year and EVERY vine is gonna be dead. So your advise while getting
>> YOU off the hook doesn't really apply in ALL cicumstances. I'd trust my
>> local plant people over the local commercial viticultrualist ANY TIME.
>> I'm not afraid to give my opinion on my experiences growing grapes,
>> which happen to be commercially and I 'm not one to give the cop out
>> answer of "check with the locals who grow them". ANYONE could give
>> that advise. I assume the posters here want OUR advise and OUR
>> experiences else they would they be posting here in the first place.
>> right?
>>
>> Bob
>>
>

figaro wrote:

>
> You could try the county farm adviser but small vineyards don't seem to
> warrant much attention at that office and I was disappointed with the level
> of help or interest. If you don't live in Temeculah, you are basically on
> your own.
>

Now I don't know anything about raising grapes, and I am just now
learning modern methods of home winemaking, but I am an old boy from
rural Alabama so I know a little about Extension Agents (which I assume
your "county farm adviser" is.) Back home, if Dr. Moody had tried to
ignore the subsistence farmers to concentrate exclusively on the
cucumber farms and the cotton growers, we'd have been up in arms (that
still has a literal meaning when appropriate circumstances arise.) To
channel my Uncle Brownie for a moment "Them bid-ness farms ain't paying
what t' keep th' 'stension man in eggs."

Of course, we always gave Dr. Moody a little something for his time to
come all the way out to us, usually a quart of sorghum. Be sure if you
ever finnagle the agent out, give him a jug of wine, or some jam, or
some biscuits and gravy. Dr. Moody was always singing a song when he
came up our road, even knowing it would be two hours of trooping through
animal muck and worse.

Of course, he always said it was the artesian well that made him look
forward seeing us.