Fig,

My comment about top soil was directed at Cox not you. I read your post
and I saw that it said Cox said that. I think we're on the same page.
Your post never really got into at what point in time you thought
stressing the vines was good for the juice. All I was doing is making
sure that anyone that read the thread wasn't misunderstanding how to
START the vines. I'm totally for great wine but I think the average
grower rushes things to the detriment of the vines. I think you'll find
that rich clay like soil will cause more harm to vines than water. I
personally have never noticed vines growing out of control on well
drained soil. If the soil drains well I don't think you can over water
them. The soil will never become waterlogged. Trust me, I know this for
a fact. I have MULTIPLE varieties growing in my vineyard on very sandy
soil and I water ALOT and NEVER had "vigor" problems or mildew
problems. As far as stressing the vines the best advice I would give
anyone is to not do it until AT LEAST the 5th year. I'm waiting until
they reach their "peak" years before I start stressing them and that is
10 years. My wine tastes fine even with all the water and I've haven't
seen any problems with berry size.

Bob
figaro wrote:
> Bob, I don't think you caught the earlier part of this thread but we
are
> both from Southern California in the same general vacinity, so Jeff
Cox's
> book suits us just fine.
>
> The comment about me not knowing what topsoil is... well that was
just
> unnecessary. The 36"-70" number came directly from Cox's book, not
my
> number. The property I live on is undeveloped, natural land that
has had
> thousands of years of organic material built up on it. This is not a
> housing development where all the ground is scraped free of topsoil
during
> the building process.
>
> I still disagree with you about the stressed vines but agree with you
that
> the first years should be stress free since you are attempting to get
the
> plant off to a good start and don't care about the fruit at this
point.
> Overly fertilized or overly watered winegrapevines will produce
rampant
> growth at the expense of the fruit and the fruit will often contain
higher
> levels of water than wanted for winemaking. Rampant growth also
leads to
> mildew problems and bunch rot since the air flow becomes restricted
in an
> overgrown vine.
>
> Like I said in my earlier post, I encourage anyone to doublecheck my
> information with the experts. However, I don't believe that an
average or
> even better-than-average nursery would have much experience with wine
grapes
> and I don't recommend going down to your local Home Depot garden
center with
> any great expectations of expert advice. Contact your local people
like
> the farm adviser or master gardener association for specific
information
> pertaining to your area.
>
> > From:
> > Organization: http://groups.google.com
> > Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking
> > Date: 9 Feb 2005 05:44:51 -0800
> > Subject: google group for grape growing
> >
> >
> > Not sure I agree with much here besides the gopher problem. Gophers
> > don't seem to bother grapevines and the chicken wire is a lesson in
> > futility. I'll challange anyone to show me land that had 36-70" of
top
> > soil. He might not know what top soil is. BTW, Nurseries are a
GREAT
> > place to learn how to grow plants, which contrary to some ,
grapevines
> > are. Stressing vines is a practice only followed in an area where
they
> > have no problems with winter temps. Ask any grapevine nursery how
much
> > they stress their vines and I'm sure NONE will answer that they do.
> > Young vines are stressed enough. They need to be given an
environment
> > to FLOURISH. Theoretically, you shouldn't be getting a crop for at
> > least 2 years maybe 4 so make sure the first years are STRESS FREE.
> > BTW, Jeff Cox's book , IMO, deals with viticulture for the WEST
coast.
> > His techniques are not practiced where the climate isn't as ideal
as
> > California. Yes, France stresses their vines but look at their
winter
> > temps! If you took the stressing "theory" and transfered it to
> > Minnesota you'd end up with vineyard of dead vines.
> >
> > Bob