Been doing some research on trellis systems for grapes.

Are there any references that anyone would recommend for
suitablility/fit and application of the different systems? And some
'how to' instruction?

I'm interested in one called a pendlebogen, evidently a German
technique, but can't find more than a dozen hits on it on the net.
The discusions are fairly light on these sites.

TIA

Steve - Noobie
Oregon

spud wrote:

> Been doing some research on trellis systems for grapes.
>
> Are there any references that anyone would recommend for
> suitablility/fit and application of the different systems? And some
> 'how to' instruction?
>
> I'm interested in one called a pendlebogen, evidently a German
> technique, but can't find more than a dozen hits on it on the net.
> The discusions are fairly light on these sites.
>
> TIA
>
> Steve - Noobie
> Oregon

You might try "Sunlight ito Wine" by Richard Smart and Mike Robinson or
"From Vines to Wine" by Cox. I can't recall ever seeing anything about
pendlebogen, however.

spud wrote:

> Been doing some research on trellis systems for grapes.
>
> Are there any references that anyone would recommend for
> suitablility/fit and application of the different systems? And some
> 'how to' instruction?
>
> I'm interested in one called a pendlebogen, evidently a German
> technique, but can't find more than a dozen hits on it on the net.
> The discusions are fairly light on these sites.
>
> TIA
>
> Steve - Noobie
> Oregon

You might try "Sunlight ito Wine" by Richard Smart and Mike Robinson or
"From Vines to Wine" by Cox. I can't recall ever seeing anything about
pendlebogen, however.

"spud" > wrote in message
...
> Been doing some research on trellis systems for grapes.
>
> Are there any references that anyone would recommend for
> suitablility/fit and application of the different systems? And some
> 'how to' instruction?
>
> I'm interested in one called a pendlebogen, evidently a German
> technique, but can't find more than a dozen hits on it on the net.
> The discusions are fairly light on these sites.
>
>
A few sites. Your Pendlebogen is mentioned he
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...andstocks.html
http://muextension.missouri.edu/xplo...ort/g06090.htm
http://vitfaq.vinic.com/

Here's a link with good pic of the system...

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f.../pnclones.html

CHEERS!!


"spud" > wrote in message
...
> Been doing some research on trellis systems for grapes.
>
> Are there any references that anyone would recommend for
> suitablility/fit and application of the different systems? And some
> 'how to' instruction?
>
> I'm interested in one called a pendlebogen, evidently a German
> technique, but can't find more than a dozen hits on it on the net.
> The discusions are fairly light on these sites.
>
> TIA
>
> Steve - Noobie
> Oregon

Thanks for the responses. Sure appreciate it.

Steve - Noobie
Oregon



>I'm interested in one called a pendlebogen, evidently a German
>technique, but can't find more than a dozen hits on it on the net.
>The discusions are fairly light on these sites.
>
>TIA
>
>Steve - Noobie
>Oregon

Hey noobie,

It's often good to match grapes with the right trellis system. The
pendelbogen is "basically" a VSP but instead of the cane being tied
down to the low wire it's allowed to form an arc before being tied at
the end of the cane to the low wire. One of the "advertised" advantages
is that instead of bud break happening from the end of the cane inward,
bud break starts in the middle of the cane which can result in a more
even growth pattern. There are some varieties not suited to VSP . What
grapes are you growing???

Bob

spud wrote:
> Thanks for the responses. Sure appreciate it.
>
> Steve - Noobie
> Oregon
>
>
>
> >I'm interested in one called a pendlebogen, evidently a German
> >technique, but can't find more than a dozen hits on it on the net.
> >The discusions are fairly light on these sites.
> >
> >TIA
> >
> >Steve - Noobie
> >Oregon

Thanks for the response, Bob. They're all vinifera, Savignon Blanc,
Chardonay, Cabernet Savignon, Gamay.

We have pretty mild winters here, but on occasion do get single digits
in the winter. Certainly would sometime during the life of these
plants.

I suppose I shy away from cordon systems becasue of that and am taken
with pendelbogen because appears to train two trunks, potentially
leaving options open if there is a problem.

Thanks again,
Steve - Noobie
Oregon


wrote:

>Hey noobie,
>
>It's often good to match grapes with the right trellis system. The
>pendelbogen is "basically" a VSP but instead of the cane being tied
>down to the low wire it's allowed to form an arc before being tied at
>the end of the cane to the low wire. One of the "advertised" advantages
>is that instead of bud break happening from the end of the cane inward,
>bud break starts in the middle of the cane which can result in a more
>even growth pattern. There are some varieties not suited to VSP . What
>grapes are you growing???
>
>Bob
>

"spud" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the response, Bob. They're all vinifera, Savignon Blanc,
> Chardonay, Cabernet Savignon, Gamay.
>
> We have pretty mild winters here, but on occasion do get single digits
> in the winter. Certainly would sometime during the life of these
> plants.
>
> I suppose I shy away from cordon systems becasue of that and am taken
> with pendelbogen because appears to train two trunks, potentially
> leaving options open if there is a problem.
>
>
This may be of interest. This vineyard is in my home town.
http://www.markko.com/trellis.html

Spud ( noobie)

Cordons are fine for Oregon. Actually, cordon pruning is used
extensively in Washington State. Cordons are actually more winter hardy
than canes. You grow 2 trunks which would be "turned at a 90 degree
angle" at the low wire to follow the wire. Cordons are really a "trunk"
that is allowed to grow up and then horizontally (don't be intimidated
by the terminology, they're only plants ) , and there isn't anything
more winter hardy than a trunk!. you could leave 2 buds below the low
wire on the main trunks to grow to canes for "replacements" should the
cordon get zapped in the winter. Just leave room in the middle of each
vines canopies for these canes which would grow straight up into the
above wires. If the cordon is fine next year, prune them back to 1 bud
and start again. Temps in the single digits are really not that low
especially if it only happens rarely. I'm sure you'll have "HUGE"
cordons if those are really the low temps you experience. BTW, there is
a theory that the more old wood on a vine the better for the grapes
which is also why cordon systems are used.

Bob


spud wrote:
> Thanks for the response, Bob. They're all vinifera, Savignon Blanc,
> Chardonay, Cabernet Savignon, Gamay.
>
> We have pretty mild winters here, but on occasion do get single
digits
> in the winter. Certainly would sometime during the life of these
> plants.
>
> I suppose I shy away from cordon systems becasue of that and am taken
> with pendelbogen because appears to train two trunks, potentially
> leaving options open if there is a problem.
>
> Thanks again,
> Steve - Noobie
> Oregon
>
>
> wrote:
>
> >Hey noobie,
> >
> >It's often good to match grapes with the right trellis system. The
> >pendelbogen is "basically" a VSP but instead of the cane being tied
> >down to the low wire it's allowed to form an arc before being tied
at
> >the end of the cane to the low wire. One of the "advertised"
advantages
> >is that instead of bud break happening from the end of the cane
inward,
> >bud break starts in the middle of the cane which can result in a
more
> >even growth pattern. There are some varieties not suited to VSP .
What
> >grapes are you growing???
> >
> >Bob
> >

Forgot to comment on your vines. Sauvignon blanc and Cabernet
sauvignon need alot of HEAT to get to the style that you get from
California . You'll love the chardonnay. You'll need to spray for
EVERYTHING. I don't know much about Gamay but if I were you I'd trade
in the sauvignon blanc for some riesling.Also there is a grape called
Lemberger which is cold hardy, good tasting AND shorter growing season
that CS. Sauvignon blanc needs long growing seasons and is very winter
tender. Chardonnay, CS are winter hardy and the Gamay I'm not sure. My
best advise based on MY experience is to grow grapes you'll never have
to worry about in the winter and grapes that ripen in your climate.
I've learned the hard way , I didn't listen and I spent TOO much time
and the heartbreak was painful. You might not experience it right away
BUT if you make the wrong decisions you will experience it, I guarantee
it.


Bob

I am only a hobbiest but one problem I see with cordons is that they would
carry disease pressure forward each year. i.e. all the nooks and crannies
would be nice homes for diseases and insects to overwinter in. Things like
phomposis and the like if present in Oregan could become an issue over time.
Plus the accumulated winter damage. Anytime temps dip below -20C some
damage occurs.
I remember reading that in cool climate you should aim to replace your
trunks after 5 years old. Sounds like a pain but it can be managed with
multiple trunks.

Joe

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Spud ( noobie)
>
> Cordons are fine for Oregon. Actually, cordon pruning is used
> extensively in Washington State. Cordons are actually more winter hardy
> than canes. You grow 2 trunks which would be "turned at a 90 degree
> angle" at the low wire to follow the wire. Cordons are really a "trunk"
> that is allowed to grow up and then horizontally (don't be intimidated
> by the terminology, they're only plants ) , and there isn't anything
> more winter hardy than a trunk!. you could leave 2 buds below the low
> wire on the main trunks to grow to canes for "replacements" should the
> cordon get zapped in the winter. Just leave room in the middle of each
> vines canopies for these canes which would grow straight up into the
> above wires. If the cordon is fine next year, prune them back to 1 bud
> and start again. Temps in the single digits are really not that low
> especially if it only happens rarely. I'm sure you'll have "HUGE"
> cordons if those are really the low temps you experience. BTW, there is
> a theory that the more old wood on a vine the better for the grapes
> which is also why cordon systems are used.
>
> Bob
>
>
> spud wrote:
>> Thanks for the response, Bob. They're all vinifera, Savignon Blanc,
>> Chardonay, Cabernet Savignon, Gamay.
>>
>> We have pretty mild winters here, but on occasion do get single
> digits
>> in the winter. Certainly would sometime during the life of these
>> plants.
>>
>> I suppose I shy away from cordon systems becasue of that and am taken
>> with pendelbogen because appears to train two trunks, potentially
>> leaving options open if there is a problem.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Steve - Noobie
>> Oregon
>>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Hey noobie,
>> >
>> >It's often good to match grapes with the right trellis system. The
>> >pendelbogen is "basically" a VSP but instead of the cane being tied
>> >down to the low wire it's allowed to form an arc before being tied
> at
>> >the end of the cane to the low wire. One of the "advertised"
> advantages
>> >is that instead of bud break happening from the end of the cane
> inward,
>> >bud break starts in the middle of the cane which can result in a
> more
>> >even growth pattern. There are some varieties not suited to VSP .
> What
>> >grapes are you growing???
>> >
>> >Bob
>> >
>

Hi Bob:

Thanks for the repsonse.

We have ~2,750 heat units here through September. Is that to tight for
Cab or Sav. Blanc? The only reference I have so far says Cab needs
2,500 to 3,000. I guess that is kind of pushing it, isn't it? Not
much room for a crummy year.

Thanks Again,

Steve - Noobie
Oregon






On 1 Feb 2005 10:38:59 -0800, wrote:

>Forgot to comment on your vines. Sauvignon blanc and Cabernet
>sauvignon need alot of HEAT to get to the style that you get from
>California . You'll love the chardonnay. You'll need to spray for
>EVERYTHING. I don't know much about Gamay but if I were you I'd trade
>in the sauvignon blanc for some riesling.Also there is a grape called
>Lemberger which is cold hardy, good tasting AND shorter growing season
>that CS. Sauvignon blanc needs long growing seasons and is very winter
>tender. Chardonnay, CS are winter hardy and the Gamay I'm not sure. My
>best advise based on MY experience is to grow grapes you'll never have
>to worry about in the winter and grapes that ripen in your climate.
>I've learned the hard way , I didn't listen and I spent TOO much time
>and the heartbreak was painful. You might not experience it right away
>BUT if you make the wrong decisions you will experience it, I guarantee
>it.
>
>
>Bob

Spud,

No, According to Jeff Cox's "Vines to Wines" you actually live in the
PERFECT area for those varitals. What do the vineyards around you
grow??? It would seem to me that you can grow just about anything with
those numbers.I don't think you'll have to much of a problem.

Bob

Thanks Bob!

SWMBO picked up "Vines to Wines" for me today. That'll keep me busy
for a while.

Take Care,
Steve - Noobie
Oregon



On 2 Feb 2005 04:50:54 -0800, wrote:

>Spud,
>
>No, According to Jeff Cox's "Vines to Wines" you actually live in the
>PERFECT area for those varitals. What do the vineyards around you
>grow??? It would seem to me that you can grow just about anything with
>those numbers.I don't think you'll have to much of a problem.
>
>Bob

Thanks Bob!

SWMBO picked up "Vines to Wines" for me today. That'll keep me busy
for a while.

Take Care,
Steve - Noobie
Oregon



On 2 Feb 2005 04:50:54 -0800, wrote:

>Spud,
>
>No, According to Jeff Cox's "Vines to Wines" you actually live in the
>PERFECT area for those varitals. What do the vineyards around you
>grow??? It would seem to me that you can grow just about anything with
>those numbers.I don't think you'll have to much of a problem.
>
>Bob

Spud,

A couple of things I've learned over the years I want to share with
you.

1. Jeff Cox's book doesn't really go into spraying so you need to do
some research on that. I can recommend a spray program if you don't
know anything about it. I'm assuming your climate gets down mildew and
black rot which I hear California does not so your going to have to
spray for ALL diseases. Japanese Beetles are the other pest I have alot
of so see if you can visit a nearby winery and find out what they spray
for and what they use. If you can't find it , like I said I'll gladly
recommend something.

2. Jeff Cox's book recommends mulching with "gravel" as the best way to
grow grapes. I don't recommend that. I HIGHLY recommend mulching with
medium to large wood chips ( I get mine for free from a tree company,
also WOOD shavings from a horse crap pile are great too) . They keep
the water in the soil and they don't cause weeds to grow like hay does.
Grape vines NEED water contrary to what some old wives tale say,
especially when they are young. They need an INCH of water a WEEK after
you plant them ,(don't sweat the exact amount, just make sure they have
plenty of water if it doesn't rain HARD that week.) . Now you shouldn't
have to worry about over watering them because you should be growing
them in a well drained soil, right????. The more clay you have the
less water you need. If you have a soil like clay that holds water I
would keep grass in the row middles. Actually, I have VERY sandy soil
and I keep grass in the row middles and it works great! The vines roots
will go FAR deeper than the grass and there doesn't seem to be any
problems with competition for water. I mulch mow so all the grass is
returned to fertilize and keep the moisture in the soil. So if you
already have grass where you are going to plant them, round-up the
grass where the plants will be and mulch over the dead grass.You could
also put that "black" cloth mulch down underneath the wood chips to
really seal the grass from growing underneath the trellis system but
make sure you put AT LEAST 4 inches of mulch. The best time to mulch is
AFTER a hard rain so the ground is already soaked so you would be
sealing in the moisture. I almost guarantee that if you mulch you will
have few nutient deficencies and you;'ll get TONS of worms which is
what you want. I also keep the mulch about 6 inches away from the
plants on each side BUT the mulch goes inbetween the plants. Now,
there are people who will tell you to dig a trench and lossen up the
soil 36 inches down all down the row where the vines will be planted.
If you can do that go ahead but if your like most people and don't have
or can't afford the machinery to do that just dig a hole with a post
hole digger down about 2 feet and back fill to where the plants are
planted at the same depth they were in the nursery.If they're grafted,
plant them so there is about 3 inches from the graft to the soil line.
I fill the hole with water before planting then plant and fill with
water again.Obviously I use ALOT of water . BTW, soak the vines in
water overnight before you plant them and try and plant on a cloudy day
where the evaporation is low. Actually a light mist would be great.
Once planted prune back to 2 buds. Your probably going to get grafted
plants so just plant them, you won't have to prune them. The wax on the
plants doesn't need to be peeled off , so leave it on., it's there for
a reason. Once you plant, then they'll start growing . KEEP THEM
WATERED! THe first year you SHOULDN'T need fertilizer . When they bloom
the new growth will be shiny and sometimes has a reddish hue. Don't be
alarmed it isn't potassium deficiency . Like I said if you keep them
watered and mulched you will be fine. BUT after the buds break you'll
need to start spraying!


Bob

Hi:

Thanks for the great advice. I sure have alot to learn!

Thanks Again,
Steve - Noobie
Oregon







> kindly wrote:
>Spud,
>A couple of things I've learned over the years I want to share with
>you.
>
>Bob

Any opinions of this book?

"The Grape Grower", Lon Rombough

Thanks
Steve - Noobie
Oregon

spud wrote:

> Any opinions of this book?
>
> "The Grape Grower", Lon Rombough
>
> Thanks
> Steve - Noobie
> Oregon

I have the book. It has some good information about grafting. It is a good
book to have in your library.

"spud" > wrote in message
...
> Been doing some research on trellis systems for grapes.
>
> Are there any references that anyone would recommend for
> suitablility/fit and application of the different systems? And some
> 'how to' instruction?
>
> I'm interested in one called a pendlebogen, evidently a German
> technique, but can't find more than a dozen hits on it on the net.
> The discusions are fairly light on these sites.
>
> TIA
>
> Steve - Noobie
> Oregon
Pendlebogen is a good choice for valuable fruit that is prone to bunch rot
and the like especially in high disease pressure areas.
It is also known as Vertical Shoot Positioning with arched canes. This
newsgroup has listed a number of good viticulture books that describe this
technique in detail. i.e Vines to Wines by Cox, General Viticulture by
Winkler ...
Joe