Plastic 55 Gallon Drums

I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does anyone
know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out.
Thanks,

On 4 Jan 2005 12:14:28 -0800, wrote:

>I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
>they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
>contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does anyone
>know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out.

I'd trust the peroxide ones more than the bleach ones. Some sulphite
should get rid of any trace peroxides left, whereas you may have
organochlorines in the ones that contained bleach.


---The Mad Alchemist---
http://www.mad-alchemy.com
Email sent to the above address, unless clearly marked
as wine or heraldry, will be deleted unread.

On 4 Jan 2005 12:14:28 -0800, wrote:

>I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
>they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
>contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does anyone
>know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out.

I'd trust the peroxide ones more than the bleach ones. Some sulphite
should get rid of any trace peroxides left, whereas you may have
organochlorines in the ones that contained bleach.


---The Mad Alchemist---
http://www.mad-alchemy.com
Email sent to the above address, unless clearly marked
as wine or heraldry, will be deleted unread.

The hydrogen peroxide barrels will be perfectly safe after a thorough
scrubbing & rinsing & drying. Maybe after a rinsing alone, but I'd give
a good cleaning just to be safe. H2O2, while dangerous in higher
concentrations, is quite water soluble and breaks down readily with
heat, light, drying, etc.

I'd stay away from (Chlorine?) bleach barrels at all costs, as you'll
have a very hard time eliminating the taint from the plastic, and it
would likely ruin the first batch (or several) you try.
--


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

I don't know if those will be safe to use...I get my new drums Greif
Brothers Corp. They are manufacturers and wholesalers, but they also
sell to the public. They charge about $45 for a 55gal open top poly
drum, and about $35 for 30gal drums. They have locations in most major
cities. Go to their website at
http://www.greif.com/locations/united_states.php and select your state
at the bottom. I have no affiliation with them...just a happy
customer.

Good Luck,
David D.

wrote:
> Plastic 55 Gallon Drums
>
> I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
> they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
> contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does
anyone
> know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out.
> Thanks,

I don't know if those will be safe to use...I get my new drums Greif
Brothers Corp. They are manufacturers and wholesalers, but they also
sell to the public. They charge about $45 for a 55gal open top poly
drum, and about $35 for 30gal drums. They have locations in most major
cities. Go to their website at
http://www.greif.com/locations/united_states.php and select your state
at the bottom. I have no affiliation with them...just a happy
customer.

Good Luck,
David D.

wrote:
> Plastic 55 Gallon Drums
>
> I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
> they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
> contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does
anyone
> know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out.
> Thanks,

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Plastic 55 Gallon Drums
>
> I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
> they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
> contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does anyone
> know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out.
> Thanks,
>
I have some 16 gallon ones with peroxide from a local laundromat; I'd
fill it full of the hottest water you can find 55 gallons of, let it soak a
good while, then rinse it three times. Triple rinsing with a few gallons
each time (enough so you can actually pick up the drum and physically shake
the hell out of it) should work wonders.
Drums from soft drink plants that once contained phosphoric acid are
good too.
HTH, Blobert
--
"A 90 year old man was arrested and charged with rape.
He was so flattered that he pled guilty." -George Burns-

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Plastic 55 Gallon Drums
>
> I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
> they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
> contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does anyone
> know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out?

The ones that contained peroxide should be just fine, as long as you wash
and rinse them before use. I'd steer clear of the ones that contained
bleach though.

Tom S

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Plastic 55 Gallon Drums
>
> I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
> they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
> contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does anyone
> know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out?

The ones that contained peroxide should be just fine, as long as you wash
and rinse them before use. I'd steer clear of the ones that contained
bleach though.

Tom S

You could get rid of the bleach by soaking it with a solution of
sulfite (potassiun or sodium) to neutralize the hypochlorite (This is done
often in the industry). If the plastic is porous then you may have to
soak it quite a while... In any case the cost of the sulfite would probably
be too high to be worth it!

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Plastic 55 Gallon Drums
>
> I want to use plastic 55 gallon drums for my primary fermentation but
> they are hard to find in my area. I was able to find some that
> contained hydrogen peroxide and some that contained bleach. Does anyone
> know if either of these would be safe to use once cleaned out.
> Thanks,
>

Alex wrote:
>In any case the cost of the sulfite would probably
> be too high to be worth it!
>

I was with you until this. It really shouldn't take much sulfite to do
the job. We're not talking about 55 gallons of bleach, just the residue
left in the drum.


Andy

Alex wrote:
>In any case the cost of the sulfite would probably
> be too high to be worth it!
>

I was with you until this. It really shouldn't take much sulfite to do
the job. We're not talking about 55 gallons of bleach, just the residue
left in the drum.


Andy

I would watch out the one with bleach for another reason - not sure
about the 55 gal drums but the regular household containers are
sometimes treated with something that gives them a "floral" scent. This
is the case even if the blech itself is inscented - which it should be
for any winemaking application. The floral scent is pretty much
impossible to remove, so make sure your drums are not treated with
this.

Pp

JEP62 wrote:
> Alex wrote:
> >In any case the cost of the sulfite would probably
> > be too high to be worth it!
> >
>
> I was with you until this. It really shouldn't take much sulfite to
do
> the job. We're not talking about 55 gallons of bleach, just the
residue
> left in the drum.
>
>
> Andy

I would watch out the one with bleach for another reason - not sure
about the 55 gal drums but the regular household containers are
sometimes treated with something that gives them a "floral" scent. This
is the case even if the blech itself is inscented - which it should be
for any winemaking application. The floral scent is pretty much
impossible to remove, so make sure your drums are not treated with
this.

Pp

JEP62 wrote:
> Alex wrote:
> >In any case the cost of the sulfite would probably
> > be too high to be worth it!
> >
>
> I was with you until this. It really shouldn't take much sulfite to
do
> the job. We're not talking about 55 gallons of bleach, just the
residue
> left in the drum.
>
>
> Andy

"pp" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I would watch out the one with bleach for another reason - not sure
> about the 55 gal drums but the regular household containers are
> sometimes treated with something that gives them a "floral" scent.

The best reason to avoid the drums that have contained bleach is that
there's the possibility of sufficient residue remaining to cause TCA
(trichloroanisole) problems in your wine. Commercial wineries no longer use
hypochlorite (bleach) for this reason. It takes very little TCA for it to
be a problem in wine - as little as a few parts per trillion IIRC. TCA has
become such an issue that many wineries don't even use it to clean _floors_
anymore!

Tom S

Tom S wrote:
>
> The best reason to avoid the drums that have contained bleach is that

> there's the possibility of sufficient residue remaining to cause TCA
> (trichloroanisole) problems in your wine. Commercial wineries no
longer use
> hypochlorite (bleach) for this reason. It takes very little TCA for
it to
> be a problem in wine - as little as a few parts per trillion IIRC.
TCA has
> become such an issue that many wineries don't even use it to clean
_floors_
> anymore!
>
> Tom S

I agree 100%. It appears that the chlorine doesn't even have to come in
contact with anything that come into contact with the wine. One winery
attributed their TCA taint issue to residue in floor drains.
Chlorine has no place in a winery.

Andy

"JEP62" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Tom S wrote:
> >
> > The best reason to avoid the drums that have contained bleach is that
>
> > there's the possibility of sufficient residue remaining to cause TCA
> > (trichloroanisole) problems in your wine. Commercial wineries no
> longer use
> > hypochlorite (bleach) for this reason. It takes very little TCA for
> it to
> > be a problem in wine - as little as a few parts per trillion IIRC.
> TCA has
> > become such an issue that many wineries don't even use it to clean
> _floors_
> > anymore!
> >
> > Tom S
>
> I agree 100%. It appears that the chlorine doesn't even have to come in
> contact with anything that come into contact with the wine. One winery
> attributed their TCA taint issue to residue in floor drains.
> Chlorine has no place in a winery.

I've been using it forever. What are "TCA problems"?

> Andy
>

Doesn't drinking water contain chlorine?

Pp

JEP62 wrote:
> Tom S wrote:
> >
> > The best reason to avoid the drums that have contained bleach is
that
>
> > there's the possibility of sufficient residue remaining to cause
TCA
> > (trichloroanisole) problems in your wine. Commercial wineries no
> longer use
> > hypochlorite (bleach) for this reason. It takes very little TCA
for
> it to
> > be a problem in wine - as little as a few parts per trillion IIRC.
> TCA has
> > become such an issue that many wineries don't even use it to clean
> _floors_
> > anymore!
> >
> > Tom S
>
> I agree 100%. It appears that the chlorine doesn't even have to come
in
> contact with anything that come into contact with the wine. One
winery
> attributed their TCA taint issue to residue in floor drains.
> Chlorine has no place in a winery.
>
> Andy

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Doesn't drinking water contain chlorine?
>
> Pp

Not if you live on a small island and have a well. :-)

>
> JEP62 wrote:
> > Tom S wrote:
> > >
> > > The best reason to avoid the drums that have contained bleach is
> that
> >
> > > there's the possibility of sufficient residue remaining to cause
> TCA
> > > (trichloroanisole) problems in your wine. Commercial wineries no
> > longer use
> > > hypochlorite (bleach) for this reason. It takes very little TCA
> for
> > it to
> > > be a problem in wine - as little as a few parts per trillion IIRC.
> > TCA has
> > > become such an issue that many wineries don't even use it to clean
> > _floors_
> > > anymore!
> > >
> > > Tom S
> >
> > I agree 100%. It appears that the chlorine doesn't even have to come
> in
> > contact with anything that come into contact with the wine. One
> winery
> > attributed their TCA taint issue to residue in floor drains.
> > Chlorine has no place in a winery.
> >
> > Andy
>

Our drinking water has a higher concentration of chlorine than therapeutic
levels of chlorine in public swimming pools.

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Doesn't drinking water contain chlorine?
>
> Pp
>
> JEP62 wrote:
> > Tom S wrote:
> > >
> > > The best reason to avoid the drums that have contained bleach is
> that
> >
> > > there's the possibility of sufficient residue remaining to cause
> TCA
> > > (trichloroanisole) problems in your wine. Commercial wineries no
> > longer use
> > > hypochlorite (bleach) for this reason. It takes very little TCA
> for
> > it to
> > > be a problem in wine - as little as a few parts per trillion IIRC.
> > TCA has
> > > become such an issue that many wineries don't even use it to clean
> > _floors_
> > > anymore!
> > >
> > > Tom S
> >
> > I agree 100%. It appears that the chlorine doesn't even have to come
> in
> > contact with anything that come into contact with the wine. One
> winery
> > attributed their TCA taint issue to residue in floor drains.
> > Chlorine has no place in a winery.
> >
> > Andy
>

Our drinking water has a higher concentration of chlorine than therapeutic
levels of chlorine in public swimming pools.

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Doesn't drinking water contain chlorine?
>
> Pp
>
> JEP62 wrote:
> > Tom S wrote:
> > >
> > > The best reason to avoid the drums that have contained bleach is
> that
> >
> > > there's the possibility of sufficient residue remaining to cause
> TCA
> > > (trichloroanisole) problems in your wine. Commercial wineries no
> > longer use
> > > hypochlorite (bleach) for this reason. It takes very little TCA
> for
> > it to
> > > be a problem in wine - as little as a few parts per trillion IIRC.
> > TCA has
> > > become such an issue that many wineries don't even use it to clean
> > _floors_
> > > anymore!
> > >
> > > Tom S
> >
> > I agree 100%. It appears that the chlorine doesn't even have to come
> in
> > contact with anything that come into contact with the wine. One
> winery
> > attributed their TCA taint issue to residue in floor drains.
> > Chlorine has no place in a winery.
> >
> > Andy
>

Bob wrote:
>
> I've been using it forever. What are "TCA problems"?
>
> > Andy
> >

TCA is a short name for 2,4,6-Trichloroanisole. It's a compound that
can be detected in very, very small concentrations (parts per trillion)
and is most commonly described as the smell of old, moldy cardboard.

Its formation is linked to combination of factors that include certain
molds detoxifying chlorine in the presence of phenolic compounds. It
has been traditionally blamed on corks (hence the nickname of a wine
tainted with TCA being called "corked"), but more recent evidence has
suggested that the TCA can and is commonly formed in the absence of
cork.

It doesn't appear to be formed unless chlorine and mold are present
but since it's impossible to eliminate mold in most environments (sans
a true clean room) it appears that the best way to reduce TCA creation
is to eliminate the use of chlorine in all steps of wine making.

IMHO, the wine industry had a very high level of TCA taint a while back
and a lot of this was traced back to some cork harvesters using
chlorine bleach to treat the cork bark to eliminate mold and other
infections. This practice (AFAIK) has been stopped and IMHO, the
incidence of TCA taint has been reduced. Couple that with the education
of wine makers about the hazards of using chlorine in the winery, and
I'm hopeful the incidence of TCA wines is on the decline.


pp wrote:
> Doesn't drinking water contain chlorine?
>
> Pp

Yes, most public tap water contains either chlorine or chloramines or
both. That's one of the reasons I use a sulfite rinse on all of my
equipement after rinsing with tap water. Sulfites can neutralize both
very quickly.

Andy

"Citlink News" > wrote in message
...
> Our drinking water has a higher concentration of chlorine than therapeutic
> levels of chlorine in public swimming pools.

Use bottled drinking water to make your wines.

Tom S

Tom S > wrote:
>"Citlink News" > wrote:

>> Our drinking water has a higher concentration of chlorine
>> than therapeutic levels of chlorine in public swimming pools.

> Use bottled drinking water to make your wines.

What the hell!! Distill it yourself or get the Culligan man
do a pickup-n-delivery on demand.


Dick
--
Richard D. Adams, CPA
Moderator: misc.taxes.moderated

Tom S > wrote:
>"Citlink News" > wrote:

>> Our drinking water has a higher concentration of chlorine
>> than therapeutic levels of chlorine in public swimming pools.

> Use bottled drinking water to make your wines.

What the hell!! Distill it yourself or get the Culligan man
do a pickup-n-delivery on demand.


Dick
--
Richard D. Adams, CPA
Moderator: misc.taxes.moderated

I occasionally use bleach to clean my primary fermenter when it
becomes stained with red wine. I rinse well but am I running the risk
of TCA taint in the plastic primary and if so what cleaner would you
recommend?

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:41:24 -0000, (Dick Adams)
wrote:

>Tom S > wrote:
>>"Citlink News" > wrote:
>
>>> Our drinking water has a higher concentration of chlorine
>>> than therapeutic levels of chlorine in public swimming pools.
>
>> Use bottled drinking water to make your wines.
>
>What the hell!! Distill it yourself or get the Culligan man
>do a pickup-n-delivery on demand.
>
>
>Dick

"Jim" > wrote in message
...
>
> I occasionally use bleach to clean my primary fermenter when it
> becomes stained with red wine. I rinse well but am I running the risk
> of TCA taint in the plastic primary and if so what cleaner would you
> recommend?

I myself have for many years used bleach for that purpose. It's OK as long
as you rinse very thoroughly.

A good alternative (although more expensive) would be sodium percarbonate.

Tom S

Jim
If you are using food grade Drums you will be ok to use bleach if you
rinse them really good two or three times and than use a good sanitizer. I
use food grade plastic for both my primary and secondary fomenters. I use
15 gal & 30 gal white plastic along with my 3, 5, 6 & 6 1/2 gal glass
carboys and I can't tell the different and believe me I would be the first
to know

Someone else wrote { Tom maybe } buy bottle water. Go one better, go
to your home center and buy your self a Reverse Osmosis water system. It
will be one of the best buy you ever make. You will never know how much
better your water will taste until you get one and your wine will also taste
that much better. I know because I had to prove to a friend one time, I
made two 5 gal carboy using tap water and two 5 gal carboys of reverse
osmosis water the wines were pear & concord grape. He was a beer drinker
he is now a wine drinker, kind of a wine connoisseur By yourself a good
water system,

Moe


"Jim" > wrote in message
...
>
> I occasionally use bleach to clean my primary fermenter when it
> becomes stained with red wine. I rinse well but am I running the risk
> of TCA taint in the plastic primary and if so what cleaner would you
> recommend?
>
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:41:24 -0000, (Dick Adams)
> wrote:
>
> >Tom S > wrote:
> >>"Citlink News" > wrote:
> >
> >>> Our drinking water has a higher concentration of chlorine
> >>> than therapeutic levels of chlorine in public swimming pools.
> >
> >> Use bottled drinking water to make your wines.
> >
> >What the hell!! Distill it yourself or get the Culligan man
> >do a pickup-n-delivery on demand.
> >
> >
> >Dick
>

Jim wrote:
> I occasionally use bleach to clean my primary fermenter when it
> becomes stained with red wine. I rinse well but am I running the risk
> of TCA taint in the plastic primary and if so what cleaner would you
> recommend?
>
Consider using a metabisulfite sanitizer as a chaser. The sulphites will
react with the bleach residue and remove them.