Hi...

I have been making wine from grapes for several years. The past couple
of years, I have experienced a problem such that my wine turns cloudy
after several months in the bottle. The percipatate does not appear to
be granule but rather more of cloudy-fluffy "particulate".

History

- The grapes were pressed over a year ago.
- The wine successfully underwent cold stabilization.
- The wine has been oaked for 3 months (French Oak chips)
- Proper amounts of campden tables were added after each racking.
- Finning agent introduced and allowed to sit for three weeks prior to
final racking.
- After final racking, wine filtered using electric filter and #2 pad.
- Wine filtered only once.
- Bottles have laid on their side for over 3 months now.
- Slightly whitish/pinkish percipatate starting to be noticed.

Symptoms

- It almost appears that the finning process did not work or was not
finished even though significant cloudy and granule sediment was removed
at final racking.
- While it is not a noxious odor, wine does have slightly unusual -
though NOT unpleasant - odor.

WHAT TO DO NEXT?

Should I open up all 150 bottles and...

- Refilter?
- Reintroduce finning agent?
- Add more Campden tablet?

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Paddy-O

"Paddy-O" > wrote in message
news:8ajyd.544559$Pl.438687@pd7tw1no...
> Hi...
>
> I have been making wine from grapes for several years. The past couple of
> years, I have experienced a problem such that my wine turns cloudy after
> several months in the bottle. The precipatate does not appear to be
> granular but rather more of cloudy-fluffy "particulate".

Sounds like classic protein haze to me.

Many winemakers - even _commercial_ winemakers - don't realize that red
wines are not immune to this problem. Certain red varietals, Pinot Noir
especially, tend to throw protein deposits in bottle if they have not been
bentonite fined. It doesn't take more than a couple of pounds of bentonite
per thousand gallons to avoid this problem, and I cringe when I hear of
"cult" wines being produced unfined and unfiltered. I have seen many of
them that end up being blown out for cheap because they have ¼ inch of gunk
at the bottom of the bottle after a year's aging. That doesn't mean that
the wine isn't any good; it just means that it will be difficult to serve
it properly because it will require a lot of patience to allow it to settle
(standing up) for perhaps weeks or even months, and a steady hand to decant
the wine from all that sludge.

I would _not_ recommend unbottling, fining and rebottling all your wine.
The extra handling will surely be bad for it, and you _do_ have better
things to do with your time - right? Just keep a portion of your stash
stored upright and carefully open and pour it off the sediment as needed,
just before serving. I suspect that your decanting technique could use a
little polishing anyway. ;^)

Tom S

Hi Tom...

Thanks for your thoughts. The way I see it... there are two
possibilities. First, either my finning agent did not work well enough,
or second, I did not put sufficient campden tablets in after each
racking. I believe it may be a combination of the two. I am going back
to using Bentonite as a fining agent. I tried Kieselsol as well as
Sparkolloid Finings in the past two years respectively. Not really
pleased. Further, I am going to open up a bottle and test the S02
levels. I have a considerable amount of this wine (180 bottles) so I
don't want to loose it!

Thanks for the help.

Paddy-O


Tom S wrote:
> "Paddy-O" > wrote in message
> news:8ajyd.544559$Pl.438687@pd7tw1no...
>
>>Hi...
>>
>>I have been making wine from grapes for several years. The past couple of
>>years, I have experienced a problem such that my wine turns cloudy after
>>several months in the bottle. The precipatate does not appear to be
>>granular but rather more of cloudy-fluffy "particulate".
>
>
> Sounds like classic protein haze to me.
>
> Many winemakers - even _commercial_ winemakers - don't realize that red
> wines are not immune to this problem. Certain red varietals, Pinot Noir
> especially, tend to throw protein deposits in bottle if they have not been
> bentonite fined. It doesn't take more than a couple of pounds of bentonite
> per thousand gallons to avoid this problem, and I cringe when I hear of
> "cult" wines being produced unfined and unfiltered. I have seen many of
> them that end up being blown out for cheap because they have ¼ inch of gunk
> at the bottom of the bottle after a year's aging. That doesn't mean that
> the wine isn't any good; it just means that it will be difficult to serve
> it properly because it will require a lot of patience to allow it to settle
> (standing up) for perhaps weeks or even months, and a steady hand to decant
> the wine from all that sludge.
>
> I would _not_ recommend unbottling, fining and rebottling all your wine.
> The extra handling will surely be bad for it, and you _do_ have better
> things to do with your time - right? Just keep a portion of your stash
> stored upright and carefully open and pour it off the sediment as needed,
> just before serving. I suspect that your decanting technique could use a
> little polishing anyway. ;^)
>
> Tom S
>
>

Hi Tom...

Thanks for your thoughts. The way I see it... there are two
possibilities. First, either my finning agent did not work well enough,
or second, I did not put sufficient campden tablets in after each
racking. I believe it may be a combination of the two. I am going back
to using Bentonite as a fining agent. I tried Kieselsol as well as
Sparkolloid Finings in the past two years respectively. Not really
pleased. Further, I am going to open up a bottle and test the S02
levels. I have a considerable amount of this wine (180 bottles) so I
don't want to loose it!

Thanks for the help.

Paddy-O


Tom S wrote:
> "Paddy-O" > wrote in message
> news:8ajyd.544559$Pl.438687@pd7tw1no...
>
>>Hi...
>>
>>I have been making wine from grapes for several years. The past couple of
>>years, I have experienced a problem such that my wine turns cloudy after
>>several months in the bottle. The precipatate does not appear to be
>>granular but rather more of cloudy-fluffy "particulate".
>
>
> Sounds like classic protein haze to me.
>
> Many winemakers - even _commercial_ winemakers - don't realize that red
> wines are not immune to this problem. Certain red varietals, Pinot Noir
> especially, tend to throw protein deposits in bottle if they have not been
> bentonite fined. It doesn't take more than a couple of pounds of bentonite
> per thousand gallons to avoid this problem, and I cringe when I hear of
> "cult" wines being produced unfined and unfiltered. I have seen many of
> them that end up being blown out for cheap because they have ¼ inch of gunk
> at the bottom of the bottle after a year's aging. That doesn't mean that
> the wine isn't any good; it just means that it will be difficult to serve
> it properly because it will require a lot of patience to allow it to settle
> (standing up) for perhaps weeks or even months, and a steady hand to decant
> the wine from all that sludge.
>
> I would _not_ recommend unbottling, fining and rebottling all your wine.
> The extra handling will surely be bad for it, and you _do_ have better
> things to do with your time - right? Just keep a portion of your stash
> stored upright and carefully open and pour it off the sediment as needed,
> just before serving. I suspect that your decanting technique could use a
> little polishing anyway. ;^)
>
> Tom S
>
>

"Paddy-O" > wrote in message
news:S%Cyd.548132$Pl.177578@pd7tw1no...
> Hi Tom...
>
> Thanks for your thoughts. The way I see it... there are two
> possibilities. First, either my fining agent did not work well enough, or
> second, I did not put sufficient campden tablets in after each racking. I
> believe it may be a combination of the two.

I seriously doubt that this has anything at all to do with insufficient
Campden/sulfite. If you had any reasonable level of sulfite it would be at
least sufficient, and I've never seen a wine go cloudy in bottle because the
sulfite was too low.

I am going back
> to using Bentonite as a fining agent. I tried Kieselsol as well as
> Sparkolloid Finings in the past two years respectively. Not really
> pleased.

Fining is not necessarily a one-shot deal. Also, a fining agent or
combination of finings that works for one wine may not be right for
another - even if it's the same varietal. That's why it's always a good
idea to do trials, using a selection of agents and amounts. That doesn't
mean that you need to do a matrix of _all_ possibilities of course. That
would be completely impractical - even for a large winery.

Think of fining as building a house. You'll always start with the
foundation - right? Whether the wine is sweet or dry, red or white, the one
agent you should _always_ use is bentonite. It needn't be a lot -
especially in the case of a red wine - but you should use a _minimum_ of 1
pound per 1000 gallons of wine (~½ gram per gallon). Whites _may_ require
as much as 30 times that to achieve heat stability, but in practice I've
never used more than ~6 pounds/1000 gallons.

I find it helpful to add kieselsohl after the bentonite to help compact the
lees. It also helps counterfine the gelatin or isinglass I generally add
next. Gelatin is good for toning down the roughness of tannic reds, and
isinglass does a nice job of improving the palate feel of a white wine - but
either may be used effectively on reds or whites. Try them both on separate
samples of the "foundation" wine (the bentonite-kieselsohl fined stuff).
For openers, try ¼, ½, 1 and 2 lb.gelatin/1000 gallons, 1 and 3 oz.
isinglass/1000 gallons (that's a total of 6 samples) against a control
sample (bentonite & kieselsohl only). Let the samples stand until they're
clear enough to decant and taste them side by side against each other.

I recommend that you taste in the morning when your palate is sharper, and
don't eat or drink before or during trials. Be sure to brush your teeth,
gums and tongue before beginning, using _only_ warm water (no toothpaste).
Spit while you are tasting or the alcohol will throw off your judgement. If
you have a friend with a good palate get him or her to help you. It's
rather difficult to discern the subtle differences among some of the
samples, but the decisions you make will determine the future of your wine
so take your time and be thorough.

Further, I am going to open up a bottle and test the SO2 > levels. I have
a considerable amount of this wine (180 bottles) so I
> don't want to lose it!

Quite likely you wouldn't _lose_ it, even if you did nothing at all! It's
not as though it'll "turn" in the bottle, as long as you have adequate
sulfite in the wine. The presence of sediment is strictly an issue of
appearance and convenience.

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Paddy-O" > wrote in message
> news:S%Cyd.548132$Pl.177578@pd7tw1no...
> > Hi Tom...
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts. The way I see it... there are two
> > possibilities. First, either my fining agent did not work well enough,
or
> > second, I did not put sufficient campden tablets in after each racking.
I
> > believe it may be a combination of the two.
>
> I seriously doubt that this has anything at all to do with insufficient
> Campden/sulfite. If you had any reasonable level of sulfite it would be
at
> least sufficient, and I've never seen a wine go cloudy in bottle because
the
> sulfite was too low.
>
> I am going back
> > to using Bentonite as a fining agent. I tried Kieselsol as well as
> > Sparkolloid Finings in the past two years respectively. Not really
> > pleased.
>
> Fining is not necessarily a one-shot deal. Also, a fining agent or
> combination of finings that works for one wine may not be right for
> another - even if it's the same varietal. That's why it's always a good
> idea to do trials, using a selection of agents and amounts. That doesn't
> mean that you need to do a matrix of _all_ possibilities of course. That
> would be completely impractical - even for a large winery.
>
> Think of fining as building a house. You'll always start with the
> foundation - right? Whether the wine is sweet or dry, red or white, the
one
> agent you should _always_ use is bentonite. It needn't be a lot -
> especially in the case of a red wine - but you should use a _minimum_ of 1
> pound per 1000 gallons of wine (~½ gram per gallon). Whites _may_ require
> as much as 30 times that to achieve heat stability, but in practice I've
> never used more than ~6 pounds/1000 gallons.
>
> I find it helpful to add kieselsohl after the bentonite to help compact
the
> lees. It also helps counterfine the gelatin or isinglass I generally add
> next. Gelatin is good for toning down the roughness of tannic reds, and
> isinglass does a nice job of improving the palate feel of a white wine -
but
> either may be used effectively on reds or whites. Try them both on
separate
> samples of the "foundation" wine (the bentonite-kieselsohl fined stuff).
> For openers, try ¼, ½, 1 and 2 lb.gelatin/1000 gallons, 1 and 3 oz.
> isinglass/1000 gallons (that's a total of 6 samples) against a control
> sample (bentonite & kieselsohl only). Let the samples stand until they're
> clear enough to decant and taste them side by side against each other.
>
> I recommend that you taste in the morning when your palate is sharper, and
> don't eat or drink before or during trials. Be sure to brush your teeth,
> gums and tongue before beginning, using _only_ warm water (no toothpaste).
> Spit while you are tasting or the alcohol will throw off your judgement.
If
> you have a friend with a good palate get him or her to help you. It's
> rather difficult to discern the subtle differences among some of the
> samples, but the decisions you make will determine the future of your wine
> so take your time and be thorough.
>
> Further, I am going to open up a bottle and test the SO2 > levels. I
have
> a considerable amount of this wine (180 bottles) so I
> > don't want to lose it!
>
> Quite likely you wouldn't _lose_ it, even if you did nothing at all! It's
> not as though it'll "turn" in the bottle, as long as you have adequate
> sulfite in the wine. The presence of sediment is strictly an issue of
> appearance and convenience.
>
> Tom S

Tom,
Thank you for a very informative post. We all appreciate it.
Lum

Paddy,
I agree with Tom's advice and only would add this. I don't use
bentonite as a fining agent primarily for the purpose of clarification as I
don't think in reasonable quantities it does that great of a job for
clarifying. I use it mainly to heat stability, and then afterwards I cold
stabilize and then rack off the compacted lees. I just completed this
process on ALL of my wines, and always use bentonite on my grape wines (with
the rare exception of some reds- although I think it is best to Bentonite
them too). For clarification I have had good luck with Sparkalloid in the
whites and will consider following with Isinglass in the future to see if I
like the results better. You could try putting one of your bottles in a warm
place such as on top of your refrigerator and see if the haze, precipitate
gets worse indicating a Protein problem. Also a test can be conducted using
dry gas although I would have to look up the exact method which a search
should reveal for you. HTH
John Dixon


"Tom S" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Paddy-O" > wrote in message
> news:8ajyd.544559$Pl.438687@pd7tw1no...
> > Hi...
> >
> > I have been making wine from grapes for several years. The past couple
of
> > years, I have experienced a problem such that my wine turns cloudy after
> > several months in the bottle. The precipatate does not appear to be
> > granular but rather more of cloudy-fluffy "particulate".
>
> Sounds like classic protein haze to me.
>
> Many winemakers - even _commercial_ winemakers - don't realize that red
> wines are not immune to this problem. Certain red varietals, Pinot Noir
> especially, tend to throw protein deposits in bottle if they have not been
> bentonite fined. It doesn't take more than a couple of pounds of
bentonite
> per thousand gallons to avoid this problem, and I cringe when I hear of
> "cult" wines being produced unfined and unfiltered. I have seen many of
> them that end up being blown out for cheap because they have ¼ inch of
gunk
> at the bottom of the bottle after a year's aging. That doesn't mean that
> the wine isn't any good; it just means that it will be difficult to serve
> it properly because it will require a lot of patience to allow it to
settle
> (standing up) for perhaps weeks or even months, and a steady hand to
decant
> the wine from all that sludge.
>
> I would _not_ recommend unbottling, fining and rebottling all your wine.
> The extra handling will surely be bad for it, and you _do_ have better
> things to do with your time - right? Just keep a portion of your stash
> stored upright and carefully open and pour it off the sediment as needed,
> just before serving. I suspect that your decanting technique could use a
> little polishing anyway. ;^)
>
> Tom S
>
>

Paddy,
I agree with Tom's advice and only would add this. I don't use
bentonite as a fining agent primarily for the purpose of clarification as I
don't think in reasonable quantities it does that great of a job for
clarifying. I use it mainly to heat stability, and then afterwards I cold
stabilize and then rack off the compacted lees. I just completed this
process on ALL of my wines, and always use bentonite on my grape wines (with
the rare exception of some reds- although I think it is best to Bentonite
them too). For clarification I have had good luck with Sparkalloid in the
whites and will consider following with Isinglass in the future to see if I
like the results better. You could try putting one of your bottles in a warm
place such as on top of your refrigerator and see if the haze, precipitate
gets worse indicating a Protein problem. Also a test can be conducted using
dry gas although I would have to look up the exact method which a search
should reveal for you. HTH
John Dixon


"Tom S" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Paddy-O" > wrote in message
> news:8ajyd.544559$Pl.438687@pd7tw1no...
> > Hi...
> >
> > I have been making wine from grapes for several years. The past couple
of
> > years, I have experienced a problem such that my wine turns cloudy after
> > several months in the bottle. The precipatate does not appear to be
> > granular but rather more of cloudy-fluffy "particulate".
>
> Sounds like classic protein haze to me.
>
> Many winemakers - even _commercial_ winemakers - don't realize that red
> wines are not immune to this problem. Certain red varietals, Pinot Noir
> especially, tend to throw protein deposits in bottle if they have not been
> bentonite fined. It doesn't take more than a couple of pounds of
bentonite
> per thousand gallons to avoid this problem, and I cringe when I hear of
> "cult" wines being produced unfined and unfiltered. I have seen many of
> them that end up being blown out for cheap because they have ¼ inch of
gunk
> at the bottom of the bottle after a year's aging. That doesn't mean that
> the wine isn't any good; it just means that it will be difficult to serve
> it properly because it will require a lot of patience to allow it to
settle
> (standing up) for perhaps weeks or even months, and a steady hand to
decant
> the wine from all that sludge.
>
> I would _not_ recommend unbottling, fining and rebottling all your wine.
> The extra handling will surely be bad for it, and you _do_ have better
> things to do with your time - right? Just keep a portion of your stash
> stored upright and carefully open and pour it off the sediment as needed,
> just before serving. I suspect that your decanting technique could use a
> little polishing anyway. ;^)
>
> Tom S
>
>