I am getting ready to start a two gallon batch of Thompson Seedless (it is
my first non-concentrate grape batch so I am using the most readily
available grapes). In an effort to enhance the limited flavor and bouquet
of this grape I am planning to ferment in a converted fridge at about 50
degrees. To accommodate the low temp I am considering using Steinberg or
Pasteur White yeast. However, both come in packages for 10 gallon batches
and are priced accorindingly so as a result I have three questions.

1. Are there other yeasts for this grape that would be tolerant 50 degrees?
2. If not, is there a way to acquire the Pasteur White or Steinberg for
smaller batches?
3. After fermentation should I continue to bulk age at 50 degrees (my other
choice is indoors with temps around 78-80 or somewhat lower with evaporative
cooling)?

Don't worry about the quantity of yeast. I would use Lalvin EC1118 on
Thompson Seedless.

Scott Labs has some info you may be interested in, you could start
here...

http://www.scottlaboratories.com/inf...renceChart.pdf

Joe

"JJC" > wrote in message news:<sRXOc.223363$XM6.55450@attbi_s53>...
> I am getting ready to start a two gallon batch of Thompson Seedless (it is
> my first non-concentrate grape batch so I am using the most readily
> available grapes). In an effort to enhance the limited flavor and bouquet
> of this grape I am planning to ferment in a converted fridge at about 50
> degrees. To accommodate the low temp I am considering using Steinberg or
> Pasteur White yeast. However, both come in packages for 10 gallon batches
> and are priced accorindingly so as a result I have three questions.
>
> 1. Are there other yeasts for this grape that would be tolerant 50 degrees?
> 2. If not, is there a way to acquire the Pasteur White or Steinberg for
> smaller batches?
> 3. After fermentation should I continue to bulk age at 50 degrees (my other
> choice is indoors with temps around 78-80 or somewhat lower with evaporative
> cooling)?

Thanks, Joe.

My concern about the quantity of yeast was that an amount for a 10 gallon
plus batch was about $7 so I was hoping to find smaller amount for a smaller
price. However, that is a moot point if EC118 can tolerate 50 degree temps.
Am I correct in assuming that if the fermentation temp is slightly below 50
that I will still be okay? IOW, 50 is not a hard minimum, but a guidline?

What about post fermentation bulk storage - should I continue at 50 degrees?

I really appreciate the help.


"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
om...
> Don't worry about the quantity of yeast. I would use Lalvin EC1118 on
> Thompson Seedless.
>
> Scott Labs has some info you may be interested in, you could start
> here...
>
> http://www.scottlaboratories.com/inf...renceChart.pdf
>
> Joe
>
> "JJC" > wrote in message
news:<sRXOc.223363$XM6.55450@attbi_s53>...
> > I am getting ready to start a two gallon batch of Thompson Seedless (it
is
> > my first non-concentrate grape batch so I am using the most readily
> > available grapes). In an effort to enhance the limited flavor and
bouquet
> > of this grape I am planning to ferment in a converted fridge at about 50
> > degrees. To accommodate the low temp I am considering using Steinberg
or
> > Pasteur White yeast. However, both come in packages for 10 gallon
batches
> > and are priced accorindingly so as a result I have three questions.
> >
> > 1. Are there other yeasts for this grape that would be tolerant 50
degrees?
> > 2. If not, is there a way to acquire the Pasteur White or Steinberg for
> > smaller batches?
> > 3. After fermentation should I continue to bulk age at 50 degrees (my
other
> > choice is indoors with temps around 78-80 or somewhat lower with
evaporative
> > cooling)?

Thanks, Joe.

My concern about the quantity of yeast was that an amount for a 10 gallon
plus batch was about $7 so I was hoping to find smaller amount for a smaller
price. However, that is a moot point if EC118 can tolerate 50 degree temps.
Am I correct in assuming that if the fermentation temp is slightly below 50
that I will still be okay? IOW, 50 is not a hard minimum, but a guidline?

What about post fermentation bulk storage - should I continue at 50 degrees?

I really appreciate the help.


"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
om...
> Don't worry about the quantity of yeast. I would use Lalvin EC1118 on
> Thompson Seedless.
>
> Scott Labs has some info you may be interested in, you could start
> here...
>
> http://www.scottlaboratories.com/inf...renceChart.pdf
>
> Joe
>
> "JJC" > wrote in message
news:<sRXOc.223363$XM6.55450@attbi_s53>...
> > I am getting ready to start a two gallon batch of Thompson Seedless (it
is
> > my first non-concentrate grape batch so I am using the most readily
> > available grapes). In an effort to enhance the limited flavor and
bouquet
> > of this grape I am planning to ferment in a converted fridge at about 50
> > degrees. To accommodate the low temp I am considering using Steinberg
or
> > Pasteur White yeast. However, both come in packages for 10 gallon
batches
> > and are priced accorindingly so as a result I have three questions.
> >
> > 1. Are there other yeasts for this grape that would be tolerant 50
degrees?
> > 2. If not, is there a way to acquire the Pasteur White or Steinberg for
> > smaller batches?
> > 3. After fermentation should I continue to bulk age at 50 degrees (my
other
> > choice is indoors with temps around 78-80 or somewhat lower with
evaporative
> > cooling)?

I have never tried to ferment that low with any wine yeast, I'm not
sure. You can email Clayton Cone of Lallemand though, he would be
your best bet and he gets back to you quickly. I'm thinking you could
have stuck fermentations at below 50, I doubt I would go below 60
personally.

Once it's fermented the only issue I would anticipate with cold temps
is related to degassing; the CO2 comes out of suspension easier with
higher temps.

Joe



> My concern about the quantity of yeast was that an amount for a 10 gallon
> plus batch was about $7 so I was hoping to find smaller amount for a smaller
> price. However, that is a moot point if EC118 can tolerate 50 degree temps.
> Am I correct in assuming that if the fermentation temp is slightly below 50
> that I will still be okay? IOW, 50 is not a hard minimum, but a guidline?
>
> What about post fermentation bulk storage - should I continue at 50 degrees?
>

Go to:
http://winemakermag.com/referencegui...tstrainschart/
It's a good place to start learning about yeasts. It includes a column
for the temp range of each type of yeast, plus much, much more.
When you get there, go up to your menu bar and click on:
View/Text Size/Smallest. It's much easier to read that way. HTH




"JJC" > wrote in message
news:sRXOc.223363$XM6.55450@attbi_s53...
> I am getting ready to start a two gallon batch of Thompson Seedless (it is
> my first non-concentrate grape batch so I am using the most readily
> available grapes). In an effort to enhance the limited flavor and bouquet
> of this grape I am planning to ferment in a converted fridge at about 50
> degrees. To accommodate the low temp I am considering using Steinberg or
> Pasteur White yeast. However, both come in packages for 10 gallon batches
> and are priced accorindingly so as a result I have three questions.
>
> 1. Are there other yeasts for this grape that would be tolerant 50
degrees?
> 2. If not, is there a way to acquire the Pasteur White or Steinberg for
> smaller batches?
> 3. After fermentation should I continue to bulk age at 50 degrees (my
other
> choice is indoors with temps around 78-80 or somewhat lower with
evaporative
> cooling)?
>
>

Go to:
http://winemakermag.com/referencegui...tstrainschart/
It's a good place to start learning about yeasts. It includes a column
for the temp range of each type of yeast, plus much, much more.
When you get there, go up to your menu bar and click on:
View/Text Size/Smallest. It's much easier to read that way. HTH




"JJC" > wrote in message
news:sRXOc.223363$XM6.55450@attbi_s53...
> I am getting ready to start a two gallon batch of Thompson Seedless (it is
> my first non-concentrate grape batch so I am using the most readily
> available grapes). In an effort to enhance the limited flavor and bouquet
> of this grape I am planning to ferment in a converted fridge at about 50
> degrees. To accommodate the low temp I am considering using Steinberg or
> Pasteur White yeast. However, both come in packages for 10 gallon batches
> and are priced accorindingly so as a result I have three questions.
>
> 1. Are there other yeasts for this grape that would be tolerant 50
degrees?
> 2. If not, is there a way to acquire the Pasteur White or Steinberg for
> smaller batches?
> 3. After fermentation should I continue to bulk age at 50 degrees (my
other
> choice is indoors with temps around 78-80 or somewhat lower with
evaporative
> cooling)?
>
>

Don't worry about the quantity of yeast. I would use Lalvin EC1118
on
> Thompson Seedless

this raises an issue I've been curious about. If yeast is a growing
plant, then wouldn't even a small quantity eventually grow to enough,
assuming enough oxygen is available early on?

and all that gook at the bottom, couldn't that be added to a new
batch of juice in lieu of packaged yeast? As I understand they do
this with sourdough bread.


--
billb

I don't know if I would call yeast a plant, it's a single celled
organism. It does multiply, but the recommended quantities and
temperatures are stated for assurance of success. Straying from that
may work out fine, but it may not too.

Beermakers reuse yeast often, I do not think this is a common practice
in winemaking though. The yeast used makes a big difference in beer,
that's more controverial in winemaking. What you use in winemaking
matters, but less so. Some of the older winemaking areas they don't
use prepackaged yeast at all. They have enough yeast in the winery
and on the grapes that it works out fine for them; but most of them
have been growing grapes and making wine in the same place for several
hindred years.

Joe



"billb" > wrote in message news:<slkQc.7202$Uh.6516@fed1read02>...
> Don't worry about the quantity of yeast. I would use Lalvin EC1118
> on
> > Thompson Seedless
>
> this raises an issue I've been curious about. If yeast is a growing
> plant, then wouldn't even a small quantity eventually grow to enough,
> assuming enough oxygen is available early on?
>
> and all that gook at the bottom, couldn't that be added to a new
> batch of juice in lieu of packaged yeast? As I understand they do
> this with sourdough bread.

>this raises an issue I've been curious about. If yeast is a growing
plant, then wouldn't even a small quantity eventually grow to enough,
assuming enough oxygen is available early on?
<

In principle: yes, BUT.

Yeast doesn't live by oxygen and sugar alone. It needs assimilable nitrogen,
sulphur, trace elements, minerals and vitamins. Your brew is likely to be
lacking in some of these and a shortage of any one essential ingredient will
inhibit further growth. Furthermore you cannot determine easily yourself
which is lacking except by much experimentation.

--
groeten van Bart

>this raises an issue I've been curious about. If yeast is a growing
plant, then wouldn't even a small quantity eventually grow to enough,
assuming enough oxygen is available early on?
<

In principle: yes, BUT.

Yeast doesn't live by oxygen and sugar alone. It needs assimilable nitrogen,
sulphur, trace elements, minerals and vitamins. Your brew is likely to be
lacking in some of these and a shortage of any one essential ingredient will
inhibit further growth. Furthermore you cannot determine easily yourself
which is lacking except by much experimentation.

--
groeten van Bart

"billb" > wrote in message news:<slkQc.7202$Uh.6516@fed1read02>...
> Don't worry about the quantity of yeast. I would use Lalvin EC1118
> on
> > Thompson Seedless
>
> this raises an issue I've been curious about. If yeast is a growing
> plant, then wouldn't even a small quantity eventually grow to enough,
> assuming enough oxygen is available early on?
>

Yes, you do want good aeration to get lots of oxygen in the must early
on. The yeast uses this to reproduce early on and get a good foot
hold. After that, oxygen is generally 'bad'.

IIRC, Yeast is not a plant, it is something else. From grade-school
biology, there are plants, animals, bacteria, fungus (which is what
yeast is...) and Rosie O'donnel.

There may be a few more, but that is all I can remember off the top of
my head!

Alex.

"billb" > wrote in message
news:slkQc.7202$Uh.6516@fed1read02...
>
> Don't worry about the quantity of yeast. I would use Lalvin EC1118
> on
> > Thompson Seedless
>
> this raises an issue I've been curious about. If yeast is a growing
> plant, then wouldn't even a small quantity eventually grow to enough,
> assuming enough oxygen is available early on?
>

In theory, you could add a small amount of yeast to a batch and given enough
time it will multiply and populate the must. Of cource if the amount is too
low, it may take long enough that the must may go bad befor the yeast is
going good. Using the recommended amount will ensure that this does not
happen. If you use dry yeast, it is cheap compared to the price of a batch
of wine so ....

> and all that gook at the bottom, couldn't that be added to a new
> batch of juice in lieu of packaged yeast? As I understand they do
> this with sourdough bread.
>
>
Yes that will work fine. Of course it may add the flavor of the last batch
of wine to the next as some wine is in it as well as yeast. That may be no
problem. It works great if you start another batch when you rack off the
leas to bulk age. You could even put some in a bottle and keep it in the
frig for a period of time. I don't think I would keep it very long thought.
I did this in the past but at less than a dollar per packet, I rarely do it
any more. (did once this year)

Ray

"billb" > wrote in message
news:slkQc.7202$Uh.6516@fed1read02...
>
> Don't worry about the quantity of yeast. I would use Lalvin EC1118
> on
> > Thompson Seedless
>
> this raises an issue I've been curious about. If yeast is a growing
> plant, then wouldn't even a small quantity eventually grow to enough,
> assuming enough oxygen is available early on?
>

In theory, you could add a small amount of yeast to a batch and given enough
time it will multiply and populate the must. Of cource if the amount is too
low, it may take long enough that the must may go bad befor the yeast is
going good. Using the recommended amount will ensure that this does not
happen. If you use dry yeast, it is cheap compared to the price of a batch
of wine so ....

> and all that gook at the bottom, couldn't that be added to a new
> batch of juice in lieu of packaged yeast? As I understand they do
> this with sourdough bread.
>
>
Yes that will work fine. Of course it may add the flavor of the last batch
of wine to the next as some wine is in it as well as yeast. That may be no
problem. It works great if you start another batch when you rack off the
leas to bulk age. You could even put some in a bottle and keep it in the
frig for a period of time. I don't think I would keep it very long thought.
I did this in the past but at less than a dollar per packet, I rarely do it
any more. (did once this year)

Ray

thanks

--
billb

thanks

--
billb

I e-mailed Clayton and as you indicated he was very responsive. He
suggested that I start the fermentation at 65-70 degrees and after inital
yeast growth (24-48 hours) move the container into the fridge.

He also suggested the K1 strain for Thompson as opposed to the EC1118. It's
not as tolerant of low temps but it doesn't have to be if I follow his
advice.

Joe, thanks for the help. It's always nice to benefit from the experience
of those more knowledgeable.


"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
om...
> I have never tried to ferment that low with any wine yeast, I'm not
> sure. You can email Clayton Cone of Lallemand though, he would be
> your best bet and he gets back to you quickly. I'm thinking you could
> have stuck fermentations at below 50, I doubt I would go below 60
> personally.
>
> Once it's fermented the only issue I would anticipate with cold temps
> is related to degassing; the CO2 comes out of suspension easier with
> higher temps.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> > My concern about the quantity of yeast was that an amount for a 10
gallon
> > plus batch was about $7 so I was hoping to find smaller amount for a
smaller
> > price. However, that is a moot point if EC118 can tolerate 50 degree
temps.
> > Am I correct in assuming that if the fermentation temp is slightly below
50
> > that I will still be okay? IOW, 50 is not a hard minimum, but a
guidline?
> >
> > What about post fermentation bulk storage - should I continue at 50
degrees?
> >

I e-mailed Clayton and as you indicated he was very responsive. He
suggested that I start the fermentation at 65-70 degrees and after inital
yeast growth (24-48 hours) move the container into the fridge.

He also suggested the K1 strain for Thompson as opposed to the EC1118. It's
not as tolerant of low temps but it doesn't have to be if I follow his
advice.

Joe, thanks for the help. It's always nice to benefit from the experience
of those more knowledgeable.


"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
om...
> I have never tried to ferment that low with any wine yeast, I'm not
> sure. You can email Clayton Cone of Lallemand though, he would be
> your best bet and he gets back to you quickly. I'm thinking you could
> have stuck fermentations at below 50, I doubt I would go below 60
> personally.
>
> Once it's fermented the only issue I would anticipate with cold temps
> is related to degassing; the CO2 comes out of suspension easier with
> higher temps.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> > My concern about the quantity of yeast was that an amount for a 10
gallon
> > plus batch was about $7 so I was hoping to find smaller amount for a
smaller
> > price. However, that is a moot point if EC118 can tolerate 50 degree
temps.
> > Am I correct in assuming that if the fermentation temp is slightly below
50
> > that I will still be okay? IOW, 50 is not a hard minimum, but a
guidline?
> >
> > What about post fermentation bulk storage - should I continue at 50
degrees?
> >