Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).

After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
(but this was a concentrate batch).

I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.

I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
week . . .

hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in message
...
> Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>
> After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
> last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
> (but this was a concentrate batch).
>
> I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
>
> I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
> week . . .

The last I heard there was no such thing as a weights & measures _milk_
standard.

Surely someone in the Penn State chemistry or physics lab could help you
with this problem. You could either use a large graduated cylinder to fill
to 5 or 6 gallons and mark the outside of the carboy(s), or simply weigh the
carboy, both empty and full, and calculate the volume from the difference.

Tom S

> Surely someone in the Penn State chemistry or physics lab could
help you
> with this problem.

ask a janitor, they're usually adept at real life problems.

--
billb

"billb" > wrote in message
news:MFEBc.8877$tC5.4134@fed1read02...
> > Surely someone in the Penn State chemistry or physics lab could
> help you
> > with this problem.
>
> ask a janitor, they're usually adept at real life problems.
>
> --
> billb
>
>
Oh so true. When I was working on my Ph.D in Biophysics at U of H, I had an
aluminum coffee pot in my office. It had got to where it was percolating
but shutting itself off without really heating the water. A fellow student
and I were discussing all sorts of wild theories of why this might happen.
A maintenance man was in the office doing something at the time and he
commented without even looking at the pot "The lid is in too far so the hot
water falls back down the tube and the thermostat is shutting off too soon."
I looked at the pot and sure enough the lid was pushed in. I popped it back
up and it worked perfectly. I felt like a Ph.D Idiot. I guess I was a Ph.D
Idiot. It was humbling.

Sorry guys but nothing to do with winemaking.

Ray

In article >,
Tom S > wrote:

>"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in message
...
>> Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
>> exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>>
>> After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
>> last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
>> (but this was a concentrate batch).

>> I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.

>> I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
>> week . . .

>The last I heard there was no such thing as a weights & measures _milk_
>standard.

The question is how exact "1 gallon" has to be for milk sales.



hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

Very exact. But the container does not have to be exact. It just has to be
a little bigger than 1 gal. The pump that pumps the milk into the container
meters the milk and it has to be exact.

Ray

"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Tom S > wrote:
>
> >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> >> exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
> >>
> >> After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
> >> last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
> >> (but this was a concentrate batch).
>
> >> I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
>
> >> I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
> >> week . . .
>
> >The last I heard there was no such thing as a weights & measures _milk_
> >standard.
>
> The question is how exact "1 gallon" has to be for milk sales.
>
>
>
> hawk
> --
> Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon
campaign
> 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
> These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
> Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

In article >,
Ray > wrote:
<milk measurments>
>Very exact. But the container does not have to be exact. It just has to be
>a little bigger than 1 gal. The pump that pumps the milk into the container
>meters the milk and it has to be exact.

Ahh, but you see, I don't need the cartons. I bring home 6 gallons of
milk every weekend . . . I was going to pour it into the carboy and
back.

hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

Reasonable, cheap? Use water!. Weigh empty carboy; fill with water and weigh
again. Difference divided by liters = ? Right on!
Ed
Holland

"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > schreef in bericht
...
> Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>
> After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
> last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
> (but this was a concentrate batch).
>
> I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
>
> I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
> week . . .
>
> hawk
> --
> Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon
campaign
> 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
> These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
> Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

4 cups in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
16x5 = 80 cups...

16x6 = 96 cups.

It could be tedious....but, if I understand your dilemma right, you need to
just pour in all these cups of water...
take an empty milk jug, see if 16 cups fits in it, and where it fits, mark
the line..
Then take the milk jug, pour 5 or 6 of them into your carboys, mark it with
duct tape. Then you'll know.

Rick

"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in message
...
> Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>
> After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
> last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
> (but this was a concentrate batch).
>
> I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
>
> I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
> week . . .
>
> hawk
> --
> Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon
campaign
> 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
> These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
> Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

In article >,
Rick Vanderwal > wrote:
>4 cups in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
>16x5 = 80 cups...
>
>16x6 = 96 cups.

>It could be tedious....but, if I understand your dilemma right, you need to
>just pour in all these cups of water...
>take an empty milk jug, see if 16 cups fits in it, and where it fits, mark
>the line..

That was my first attempt. I used a two-quart measuring cup. But that
gave me the line that produced a couple bottles less than came from the
6 gallon juice batch . . . The variability would be even worse with
a larger number of smaller cups . . .

hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

I just had to calibrate some water flow meters at work and found this
useful when I did so.

One US gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs. I wanted to calibrate the
scale, so I ran in 20 gallons of water into a container and expected
to see 166.6 lbs of water. The difference between what I measured and
what I expected was the accuracy of the scale.

If you have a resonably good bathroom scale, then put your carboy on
it, record the measure (or zero the scale...) and start filling with
water.

When the scale hits (weight of carboy) + 50 lbs, you have 6 US gallons
of water.

If you want imperial gallons, one imperial gallon of water weighs in
at 10.0 lbs.

This will all be within certain limits, of course. If your scale is
+- .01 lbs, then that translates to +- 1.28 oz (not very much).

Some will say that one gallon of water will change volume based on
tempertature (because both the liquid and glass expand and contract
based on temperature.) Personally, I have never seen much variance in
my carboys, so for this it would be best for you to measure both at a
"standard" temperature. That is, what is the temperature that you
will measure it at later? When you fill your carboy with water to
measure it, stick a thermometer in it and make sure it is close to
what you will see later before you mark your line or whatever at the 6
gallon mark. Just for grins, do this with hot water, measure, then
measure again when the water is at room temperature. Is there much of
a difference? I would be interested in doing that experiment.

I found a calculator on the internet that gives density of water at a
certain temperature. The density at 70 deg. f (21.2 C) is .998000,
the density at 50 deg F (10 C) is .999728, a difference of
approximately .002%. This temperature range will throw off your
calculation another .2 oz. Just reading the volume off of the side of
your carboy is going to be more imprecise than the variance of
figuring out what is in there based on weight and temperature.

In the end, what difference does it really make whether you have 4 or
3 bottles extra when you rack? Use it later, or just dump any extra
you have into your next batch. Mine just gets consumed or stuck on a
shelf and turned into an experiment of some kind. If you make country
wines, mix all your extras together and make tooty-fruity!

In the few batches I have made (probably 10 by now), I have noticed a
large variance in the amount of lees after primary and secondary.
Maybe this is what is throwing you off?

Having said all this, I do find it useful to have simple marks on the
sides of my buckets used for botteling and primaries to get me close.
If you have that big of a problem telling how much is in a carboy, it
will likely help but not for anything other than knowing that you can
fit this much "stuff" into this container but that same amount would
overflow this other container.

Good luck!

Alex.


(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote in message >...
> Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>
> After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
> last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
> (but this was a concentrate batch).
>
> I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
>
> I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
> week . . .
>
> hawk

In article >, (Alex Brewer) wrote:
>I just had to calibrate some water flow meters at work and found this
>useful when I did so.
>
>One US gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs. I wanted to calibrate the
>scale, so I ran in 20 gallons of water into a container and expected
>to see 166.6 lbs of water. The difference between what I measured and
>what I expected was the accuracy of the scale.

Not so: the difference measures the combined INaccuracies of the scale, the
marked capacity of the container, the precision with which you filled it to
its marked capacity, and the repeatability of said filling (if you used a
container smaller than 20 gallons and filled it several times).
>
>If you have a resonably good bathroom scale, then put your carboy on
>it, record the measure (or zero the scale...) and start filling with
>water.
>
>When the scale hits (weight of carboy) + 50 lbs, you have 6 US gallons
>of water.

You have *approximately* 6 US gallons. :-)

In article >,
Alex Brewer > wrote:
>I just had to calibrate some water flow meters at work and found this
>useful when I did so.

>One US gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs. I wanted to calibrate the
>scale, so I ran in 20 gallons of water into a container and expected
>to see 166.6 lbs of water. The difference between what I measured and
>what I expected was the accuracy of the scale.

This seems to be the way to go. I don't need *exact*< but it would be
nice to be within a quart, or much less than a quart . . .

hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

what about a jug with imperial gradients on it?
"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in message
...
> Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>
> After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
> last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
> (but this was a concentrate batch).
>
> I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
>
> I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
> week . . .
>
> hawk
> --
> Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon
campaign
> 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
> These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
> Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

> what about a jug with imperial gradients on it?

what about a shrubbery. bring me a shrubbery.


--
billb
"I used to wonder how people could possibly listen to the "Grateful
Dead," then I realized, 'hey, they're all stoned," then it all made
sense. Now, Python (Monty) was different, yes, there were on dope
obviously, but they were funny so you didn't mind.
"Karl Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure
out
> > exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
> >
> > After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4
bottles
> > last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a
bottle
> > (but this was a concentrate batch).
> >
> > I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the
size.
> >
> > I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once
each
> > week . . .
> >
> > hawk
> > --
> > Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII
ribbon
> campaign
> > 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against
HTML mail
> > These opinions will not be those of X and
postings.
> > Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \
>
>

Ha, just a flesh wound!!!!


"billb" > wrote in message
news:nJ7Cc.105$Y_5.5@fed1read02...
> > what about a jug with imperial gradients on it?
>
> what about a shrubbery. bring me a shrubbery.
>
>
> --
> billb
> "I used to wonder how people could possibly listen to the "Grateful
> Dead," then I realized, 'hey, they're all stoned," then it all made
> sense. Now, Python (Monty) was different, yes, there were on dope
> obviously, but they were funny so you didn't mind.
> "Karl Hunt" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in
> message
> > ...
> > > Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure
> out
> > > exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
> > >
> > > After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4
> bottles
> > > last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a
> bottle
> > > (but this was a concentrate batch).
> > >
> > > I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the
> size.
> > >
> > > I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once
> each
> > > week . . .
> > >
> > > hawk
> > > --
> > > Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII
> ribbon
> > campaign
> > > 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against
> HTML mail
> > > These opinions will not be those of X and
> postings.
> > > Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \
> >
> >
>
>

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:03:25 +0000 (UTC),
(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:

>Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
>exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>
>After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
>last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
>(but this was a concentrate batch).
>
>I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
>
>I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
>week . . .
>
>hawk

Someone at your school has a calibrated measure.... Find it and use
it to mark your vessels.

In article >,
A. J. Rawls > wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:03:25 +0000 (UTC),
>(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:

>>Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
>>exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).

>>After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
>>last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
>>(but this was a concentrate batch).

>>I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.

>>I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
>>week . . .

>Someone at your school has a calibrated measure.... Find it and use
>it to mark your vessels.

I'll check with our chemistry professor. Yep, we're so small that
there's only one . . .

hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

The easiest thing I can think of would be for you to buy a gallon of
distilled water, mark the fill level. Dump it into the carboy in
question. Fill the water jug up to there again and repeat, marking
each time on the carboy. You will be pretty close doing it this way.
If it does not fill it up, use something else to figure out the
difference, you have the bulk of the measurement already.

Could you use the milk jug idea? Sure, but all of this assumes that
the injection mold that made it was perfect (and it probably was not)
and the jug does not change with temperature. None of that is
correct; of course it changes, everything does. The water jug was made
in the same machine, but if you are looking for e precision of a few
ounces, you should be OK.

Now the right way to do this is:

If you have precise scale or load cell that can measure 50 to 60
pounds with a few hundredths of precision:

A gallon of water= 3785.5 ml

(5) 750 ml bottles of wine = 3750 ml, it's within 1%.

Pure water (free from air) weighs:

999.13 gm/L @ 15C or 8.337 lbs/gal (US)
998.23 gm/L @ 20C or 8.330 lbs/gAL (US)
997.07 gm/L @ 25C OR 8.320 lbs/gal (US)

If you want to get really precise, use distilled water for all of this
and measure the temperature of the water and carboys, or leave them in
the same place for a day to stabilize.

Class A graduated cylinders are made of borosilicate glass and have a
known predictatble coefficient of thermal expansion. They can be used
as primary standards for volume. That is actually the correct way to
do this. It may be equvalent to killing a fly with a nuclear weapon
though... )
Regards,
Joe




(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> A. J. Rawls > wrote:
> >On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:03:25 +0000 (UTC),
> >(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
>
> >>Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> >>exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>

In article >,
Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>The easiest thing I can think of would be for you to buy a gallon of
>distilled water, mark the fill level. Dump it into the carboy in
>question.

Actually, that was the point of the milk. I come home with six gallons
each week, and I would have poured them all in.

>999.13 gm/L @ 15C or 8.337 lbs/gal (US)

I used 8-1/3 lbs/gallon, and added 50 lbs, assuming my scale is reliable
in the range above my weight. It turns out that my initial mark with
electrical tape, made by using a 2 quart measuring cup 12 times, came to
exactly the same point.

hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

Out of curiosity, why aren't you filling the carboys to the top? My carboys
all have their volume marked on the bottom & if you fill them up you always
get the same amount of wine (30 bottles from a 23 litre carboy)


"A. J. Rawls" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:03:25 +0000 (UTC),
> (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
>
> >Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> >exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
> >
> >After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
> >last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
> >(but this was a concentrate batch).
> >
> >I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
> >
> >I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
> >week . . .
> >
> >hawk
>
> Someone at your school has a calibrated measure.... Find it and use
> it to mark your vessels.
>
>

In article <bwrEc.946669$oR5.741115@pd7tw3no>,
Atrebla > wrote:
>Out of curiosity, why aren't you filling the carboys to the top? My carboys
>all have their volume marked on the bottom & if you fill them up you always
>get the same amount of wine (30 bottles from a 23 litre carboy)

I have 7 gallon carboys. It would be a bit thin

However, all of them actually hold more than their stated
capacity--apparently by about .5 gal for 6 & 7 gal, and varying from .25
to .5 for 5 gal.

hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

Oh good lord...you have to be kidding me

"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" > wrote in message
...
> Argh. I've *got* to find a way to calibrate my carboys to figure out
> exactly where 5 & 6 gallons are (particularly 6).
>
> After 6 gallons (an all juice batch) produced a 5 gallon + 4 bottles
> last week, last night it was 5 gallons and not much more than a bottle
> (but this was a concentrate batch).
>
> I need to find a reasonable, preferably cheap, way to figure the size.
>
> I wonder if milk is an exact measure? I do get 6 gallons at once each
> week . . .
>
> hawk
> --
> Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon
campaign
> 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail
> These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
> Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \

just to stir a bit of the lees in your wine.
it is easy
1 gal ( imp) water weighs 10 lbs

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
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