The article on Fruit Maturity Assessment is now available at:

http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/Fruitmat.htm

I hope to place pictures (in addition to the current figures) on this
page in future.

Comments/suggestions are welcome. (For editorial comments, please
email above address with details.)

Ben
P.S. I realise Fig. 3 is incomplete - it will be fixed tomorrow.

Hi Ben

This is an excellent article. Thanks for sharing!
It is interesting in figure 1. the relation of ph and acidity. Does the
graph intend to show that acidity and ph don't change substantially after
ripeness is achieved? This would indicate that leaving the fruit to hang
longer would not lower the acid that much.

Joe

"Ben Rotter" > wrote in message
om...
> The article on Fruit Maturity Assessment is now available at:
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/Fruitmat.htm
>
> I hope to place pictures (in addition to the current figures) on this
> page in future.
>
> Comments/suggestions are welcome. (For editorial comments, please
> email above address with details.)
>
> Ben
> P.S. I realise Fig. 3 is incomplete - it will be fixed tomorrow.

"Ben Rotter" > wrote in message
om...
> The article on Fruit Maturity Assessment is now available at:

Ben - This is a great article and you web site is first rate.

You mention that stems contain a high proportion of phenolic
compounds...astringent, polymerized tannins.

I grow some French American hybrid red grapes. I've always gone out of my
way to remove stems before fermentation. These grapes (Baco, Leon Millot)
lack the astringency that I associate with red wines and I'm wondering if
including stems might add this missing component.

Are there any F-A grape growers/winemakers out there that do include stems
during fermantation? If so what are the results?

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Joe & Bill,

Thank you both for your kind words.

Joe wrote:
> Does the graph intend to show that acidity and ph don't change substantially > after ripeness is achieved? This would indicate that leaving the fruit to
> hang longer would not lower the acid that much.

No, that was not intended. Extended "hang time" usually results in
berry dehydration (if left long enough) which causes a decrease in
berry weight and a corresponding increase in sugar. Acid generally
continues to drop over this period, with a corresponding rise in pH.
This phenomenon is not shown on Figure 1 as the graph ends before that
point.

In general, acidity consistently decreases over time in fruits. Of
course this depends on the fruit, variety, climate, etc. Bear in mind
that this is a *general* and ideal model where some factors remain
anecdotal (e.g. a ripe flavour decrease over a "full ripeness" period
- this is highly dependant and even debatable) to get the idea of
general trends across. It will not apply to every fruit or location.

Bill wrote:
> I grow some French American hybrid red grapes. I've always gone out of my
> way to remove stems before fermentation. These grapes (Baco, Leon Millot)
> lack the astringency that I associate with red wines and I'm wondering if
> including stems might add this missing component.

I don't grow/make F-A grapes/wines but I'd say give it a go. It is
sometimes done with other varieties (e.g. Pinot Noir) for the exact
reason you mention, so I don't see why it shouldn't also be done with
F-A grapes.

Ben

Bill,

I grow red F-A hybrids: Chambourcin, Chelois, and now NY 73 (Baco &
DeChaunac pulled to make room for NY73). My plan has always been to add
ripe stems to boost the tannins, but the problem is I seldom have had
stems ripe enough. My vines get less than ideal sun, and I think that's
a big part of the problem. Because I've had a few problems with vegetal
tastes, which I ascribed to less than ripe stems, I generally do a
longish maceration and add grape tannin at a rate of 1/4 to 1/2 tsp per
5 gal instead.


If you do add/leave some stems in your wine, just be careful to avoid
green ones. Brown, skinny, lignified ones can work. I don't think
they're the same as the tannins in the berries, but they help.

I planted the NY73 in part because it has better tannins

A wacky idea I've been wanting to try is to save some dry Oak leaves and
add them to a test batch the next fall.



HTH, Mike MTM

William Frazier wrote:

>
> I grow some French American hybrid red grapes. I've always gone out of my
> way to remove stems before fermentation. These grapes (Baco, Leon Millot)
> lack the astringency that I associate with red wines and I'm wondering if
> including stems might add this missing component.
>
> Are there any F-A grape growers/winemakers out there that do include stems
> during fermantation? If so what are the results?
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>

MikeMTM wrote:

> Bill,
>
> I grow red F-A hybrids: Chambourcin, Chelois, and now NY 73 (Baco &
> DeChaunac pulled to make room for NY73). My plan has always been to add
> ripe stems to boost the tannins, but the problem is I seldom have had
> stems ripe enough. My vines get less than ideal sun, and I think that's
> a big part of the problem. Because I've had a few problems with vegetal
> tastes, which I ascribed to less than ripe stems, I generally do a
> longish maceration and add grape tannin at a rate of 1/4 to 1/2 tsp per
> 5 gal instead.
>
>
> If you do add/leave some stems in your wine, just be careful to avoid
> green ones. Brown, skinny, lignified ones can work. I don't think
> they're the same as the tannins in the berries, but they help.
>
> I planted the NY73 in part because it has better tannins
>
> A wacky idea I've been wanting to try is to save some dry Oak leaves and
> add them to a test batch the next fall.
>
>
>
> HTH, Mike MTM
>
> William Frazier wrote:
>
>>
>> I grow some French American hybrid red grapes. I've always gone out of
>> my
>> way to remove stems before fermentation. These grapes (Baco, Leon
>> Millot) lack the astringency that I associate with red wines and I'm
>> wondering if including stems might add this missing component.
>>
>> Are there any F-A grape growers/winemakers out there that do include
>> stems
>> during fermantation? If so what are the results?
>>
>> Bill Frazier
>> Olathe, Kansas
>>
>>
Why try to make a "Big Red" style wine out of grapes that do not lend
themselves to such. Why not try short fermentation on the skins and not
use any oak or stems. If you do not like the results, why not experiment
and add some elderberries for tannin and color.

Paul,

I hear you. I'm slowly coming around to that conclusion myself. People
who have tasted my house red have likened it to Beaujolais, not
Cabernet, so I should probably work toward that style. I'm still going
to experiment, though.

Thanks for the input. Mike MTM