My wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on an amateur wine
contest every November. We have several hundred entries and judge all types
of grape and fruit wines as well as all types of meads. This year the
Best-Of-Show winner was a Vignoles made from grapes grown by the winemaker.
However, the 1st Runner Up was a Barolo kit, 2nd Runner Up was a peach wine
(made from fresh peaches) and 3rd Runner Up was an Oregon Pinot Noir kit.
Some have asked whether wines made from fresh or frozen fruit should be
judged together with kit wines. The reason being that there is a lot more
work, expense and science/art involved making wine from grapes and/or fruit
compared to the relatively easy steps required to make kit wine.

We plan these wine contests a year in advance. I thought I would poll the
readers of rec.crafts.winemaking to see what you think. Should kit wines
made be judged with fresh and/or frozen grape and fruit wines (Together) or
should there be separate classes for the two types of wine (Separate).
Thanks for your input.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

The purpose of judging wine should be to determine which wine is the best,
not which wine is the hardest to make. I do not think that kits should be
separated simply because they are kits. It is important for winemakers to
realize it if kits make as good of wine or better wine than made from
scratch. You may want to judge them separately just because you want to
split out more groups, but don't do it because they are easy or hard to
make.

I make 70-80 gal a year from scratch and 15-20 gal from kits.

Ray

"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> My wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on an amateur
wine
> contest every November. We have several hundred entries and judge all
types
> of grape and fruit wines as well as all types of meads. This year the
> Best-Of-Show winner was a Vignoles made from grapes grown by the
winemaker.
> However, the 1st Runner Up was a Barolo kit, 2nd Runner Up was a peach
wine
> (made from fresh peaches) and 3rd Runner Up was an Oregon Pinot Noir kit.
> Some have asked whether wines made from fresh or frozen fruit should be
> judged together with kit wines. The reason being that there is a lot more
> work, expense and science/art involved making wine from grapes and/or
fruit
> compared to the relatively easy steps required to make kit wine.
>
> We plan these wine contests a year in advance. I thought I would poll the
> readers of rec.crafts.winemaking to see what you think. Should kit wines
> made be judged with fresh and/or frozen grape and fruit wines (Together)
or
> should there be separate classes for the two types of wine (Separate).
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>
>
>

I would think it would make the winners of the non kit winemakers that much
more proud of there wine simply because they ended up with the best product
and beat the kit. In the same turn the kit maker would be proud for the same
reason, because he made the best not the easiest. If you start seperating
because someone uses kits, then next will be stuff like seperating wines
because one used a better finning than the other. Of course this is just my
opinion.
Stephen
"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> My wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on an amateur
wine
> contest every November. We have several hundred entries and judge all
types
> of grape and fruit wines as well as all types of meads. This year the
> Best-Of-Show winner was a Vignoles made from grapes grown by the
winemaker.
> However, the 1st Runner Up was a Barolo kit, 2nd Runner Up was a peach
wine
> (made from fresh peaches) and 3rd Runner Up was an Oregon Pinot Noir kit.
> Some have asked whether wines made from fresh or frozen fruit should be
> judged together with kit wines. The reason being that there is a lot more
> work, expense and science/art involved making wine from grapes and/or
fruit
> compared to the relatively easy steps required to make kit wine.
>
> We plan these wine contests a year in advance. I thought I would poll the
> readers of rec.crafts.winemaking to see what you think. Should kit wines
> made be judged with fresh and/or frozen grape and fruit wines (Together)
or
> should there be separate classes for the two types of wine (Separate).
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>
>
>

I think you should seperate, the major purpose of shows should be to help
improve the breed. The feedback for the two classes is somewhat different.

Rob L
"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> My wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on an amateur
wine
> contest every November. We have several hundred entries and judge all
types
> of grape and fruit wines as well as all types of meads. This year the
> Best-Of-Show winner was a Vignoles made from grapes grown by the
winemaker.
> However, the 1st Runner Up was a Barolo kit, 2nd Runner Up was a peach
wine
> (made from fresh peaches) and 3rd Runner Up was an Oregon Pinot Noir kit.
> Some have asked whether wines made from fresh or frozen fruit should be
> judged together with kit wines. The reason being that there is a lot more
> work, expense and science/art involved making wine from grapes and/or
fruit
> compared to the relatively easy steps required to make kit wine.
>
> We plan these wine contests a year in advance. I thought I would poll the
> readers of rec.crafts.winemaking to see what you think. Should kit wines
> made be judged with fresh and/or frozen grape and fruit wines (Together)
or
> should there be separate classes for the two types of wine (Separate).
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>
>
>

> Should kit wines
> made be judged with fresh and/or frozen grape and fruit wines (Together)
or
> should there be separate classes for the two types of wine (Separate).
> Thanks for your input.
>

Separate Bill.

There are different sets of skills involved.

clyde

-Cut for Size-

Are not most kit wines made from grapes and/or fruit with a recipe or guide
included with them? Is this really any different from someone going to our
website and picking a recipe from the many then buying the ingredients to
make said wine? Should I be giving credit for the wine made, after all it
was my recipe, or was it the style of the person that made it???

I have never made a kit wine BUT I have used others recipes, gave them my
own ways and made my wine. Key word here is MY wine. If I am to be judged
for my endeavors then I do not want to be judged for where I got my fruits
but for my winemaking skills........ If I bet out a good or great kit was
the kit bad or was my skills better than the kit? Judge them all the same,
separate only fruits from grapes, categories in fruits/ reds/ whites etc but
not fresh picked or my own fruits from those not my own. If judged
separately from fresh to kits then my recipe from yours.....

My 2 cents.....

Ben & Linda McCune
HoneyCreek Vineyard/Orchards
http://honeycreek.us




"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> My wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on an amateur
wine

> We plan these wine contests a year in advance. I thought I would poll the
> readers of rec.crafts.winemaking to see what you think. Should kit wines
> made be judged with fresh and/or frozen grape and fruit wines (Together)
or
> should there be separate classes for the two types of wine (Separate).
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>
>
>

Bill, you raise a good question. I have entered competitions that
judged separately wines made from fresh grapes, fruit (fresh, canned,
pureed, juiced, dried -- it didn't matter), grape concentrates, and
kits. The categories for kits made it obvious they only meant grape
wines, not fruit. The last one I entered had 64 categories. This is
way too many, but eight or ten are too few.

The San Antonio Regional Wine Guild has 18 categories for entry, with
no distinction made between kits, frozen must or juice, whole grapes
or fruit, etc. We do separate rosè wines (sweet and dry), red and
white grape wines (sweet and dry), aperitif and dessert wines,
sparkling wines (grape, non-grape, sweet, dry--all lumped together),
fruit wines (sweet and dry), berry wines (sweet and dry), and novelty
wines (sweet and dry). Finally, we also break out native grape wines
(sweet and dry) and grape-non-grape blended wines (sweet and dry). In
all, it gives us 18 categories. You may enter 3 wines each in any 10
categories, more than enough for even me. As current chairman of
SARWG's Competition Rules Committee, I would oppose any distinction
between the form of the base used -- fresh, canned, concentrate, kit,
dried, powdered. I did, however, support the recent addition of two
categories (sweet and dry grape-non-grape blended wines) because our
previous rules offered no place to enter many of them.

Personally, I don't care if you make your wine from fermented jelly.
If it is grape jelly, it belongs in the appropriate grape wine
category, and may the best wines win.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Hi Bill,
my opinion is different from that of the venerable Jack Keller. I _would_
separate kit wines from fresh/frozen/dried. For the reason that the fruit
product used in kits is "manufactured" in a certain way. The fruit product
is altered. I recall Lum discussing this in one thread some years ago. There
is a particular taste difference and you (from my understanding) cannot put
a kit (or most kits) through ML that some grapes varieties are normally put
through.
I would offer dry white kit wine, sweet white kit wine, ditto dry and
sweet for red kit wines. They are a different animal. I speak from the
experience of having organized an international amateur wine competition
(the memmories of which still exhast me).
regards,
Joanne

"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> My wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on an amateur
wine
> contest every November. We have several hundred entries and judge all
types
> of grape and fruit wines as well as all types of meads. This year the
> Best-Of-Show winner was a Vignoles made from grapes grown by the
winemaker.
> However, the 1st Runner Up was a Barolo kit, 2nd Runner Up was a peach
wine
> (made from fresh peaches) and 3rd Runner Up was an Oregon Pinot Noir kit.
> Some have asked whether wines made from fresh or frozen fruit should be
> judged together with kit wines. The reason being that there is a lot more
> work, expense and science/art involved making wine from grapes and/or
fruit
> compared to the relatively easy steps required to make kit wine.
>
> We plan these wine contests a year in advance. I thought I would poll the
> readers of rec.crafts.winemaking to see what you think. Should kit wines
> made be judged with fresh and/or frozen grape and fruit wines (Together)
or
> should there be separate classes for the two types of wine (Separate).
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>
>
>

(Jack Keller) wrote in message . com>...

> Bill, you raise a good question. I have entered competitions that
> judged separately wines made from fresh grapes, fruit (fresh, canned,
> pureed, juiced, dried -- it didn't matter), grape concentrates, and
> kits.
---snip

In all earnest their have to be a clear distinctive bar between all
others and wine made from real grapes. There is no way you can or
should mix them all. Gods created the grape to wine; the rest is our
own inability to not be able to do the first. And there is nothing
wrong with that but it should be classified as country wine, expensive
sold juice wine (kit wines), etc etc. By mixing them both you will
have forever clouded the little spheres that we always associate as
"real" wine. Not for that this in any instance dictates the best in
alcoholic fermentations but that it specifically brings us to a level
at which to set the bar in the first place.

You are a good country winemaker Jack and have furthered the cause of
general winemaking for many, but I hope you can see my point.

SG Brix

So many people complain about kits not being as good, or having a cooked taste
or no legs or lacking in color or has a fake oak taste or...or.....or......
All of these would be considered flaws and the kits (if judged by competent
judges) would be eliminated as possible winners. Apparently the afore mentioned
problems do not exist or cannot be detected by judges. Judge them all together
and let the best wine win.

How can a home winemaker with 8 or 10 vines, a 1/10 acre and three kids in
college compete with a kit blended from several different years/ locations/
quality of harvest by a company with assets in the millions of $$

Wine kits represent blends optimized from perhaps dozens of grades over
multiple vintages of grapes. Grapes grown by the wine maker limit his
inputs into his finished product.

The two classes are produced with differing inputs, differing resource
limitations by producers of entirely different classes.

I vote separate them.


Karl B

--



"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
> My wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on an amateur
wine
> contest every November. We have several hundred entries and judge all
types
> of grape and fruit wines as well as all types of meads. This year the
> Best-Of-Show winner was a Vignoles made from grapes grown by the
winemaker.
> However, the 1st Runner Up was a Barolo kit, 2nd Runner Up was a peach
wine
> (made from fresh peaches) and 3rd Runner Up was an Oregon Pinot Noir kit.
> Some have asked whether wines made from fresh or frozen fruit should be
> judged together with kit wines. The reason being that there is a lot more
> work, expense and science/art involved making wine from grapes and/or
fruit
> compared to the relatively easy steps required to make kit wine.
>
> We plan these wine contests a year in advance. I thought I would poll the
> readers of rec.crafts.winemaking to see what you think. Should kit wines
> made be judged with fresh and/or frozen grape and fruit wines (Together)
or
> should there be separate classes for the two types of wine (Separate).
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>
>
>

Brewser,
Here is a second point of view.
Down here in the southwest forty (S. California), we always have separate
classes for wines made from concentrate. Wines made from concentrate
contain too much furfurol and generally score poorer than wines made from
fresh grapes. We have found that few people will enter wines made from
concentrate when all wines are judged together.
lum
..
"Brewser83" > wrote in message
...
> So many people complain about kits not being as good, or having a cooked
taste
> or no legs or lacking in color or has a fake oak taste
or...or.....or......
> All of these would be considered flaws and the kits (if judged by
competent
> judges) would be eliminated as possible winners. Apparently the afore
mentioned
> problems do not exist or cannot be detected by judges. Judge them all
together
> and let the best wine win.

Many differing opinions, without a doubt. KB wants them separated because the
kits are too good to compete against. Lum wants them separated because the
aren't good enough. Valuable opinions, all, but I still say keep em together.
Lum, could it be a regional phenomenon? Californians have access to grapes that
are considerably fresher than the crap sold here.

I've enjoyed reading all the posts. As a relative new-comer to making
country wines, I think it would be better to separate grape wines, kit
wines, and country wines if you want to attract new people to the
competitions. I have to admit I'd be more likely to enter a competition if
the wines were separated. I don't know that I would enter a competition
pitching my country fruit wine against a winery at this point in time.
Maybe 10 years down the road, I would think differently.
Darlene

"Beershop" > wrote in message
...
> Many differing opinions, without a doubt. KB wants them separated because
the
> kits are too good to compete against. Lum wants them separated because the
> aren't good enough. Valuable opinions, all, but I still say keep em
together.
> Lum, could it be a regional phenomenon? Californians have access to grapes
that
> are considerably fresher than the crap sold here.

"Beershop" > wrote in message
...
> Many differing opinions, without a doubt. KB wants them separated because
the
> kits are too good to compete against. Lum wants them separated because the
> aren't good enough. Valuable opinions, all, but I still say keep em
together.
> Lum, could it be a regional phenomenon? Californians have access to grapes
that
> are considerably fresher than the crap sold here.

Indeed, I think it is a regional issue. That's why I specifically said
"here in S. California."

I responded early on in this debate that degree of difficulty should not
separate wines so kit wines should not be separated out. After reading all
the postes I change that argument. Now I say they should be separated.

Back 25 years ago kits were pretty auful. In no way could they compete with
other wines. But they have gotten better and better over the years. And
they will be getting better in the future. They are doing more and more
steps for the winemaker, making it simpler to make wine. This is
aplaudable.

But, we are talking about judging home made wine. There is a difference in
judging comercial wines. With commercial wines you are judging the product
partially as a service to the public so they will know the best wine to buy.
With amatures, who do not sell, you are judging the product to see who is
the best wine maker. Not the same thing.

If we are judging a home wine making competition, how many of the steps
toward making wine should we allow a profesional to do rather than the home
winemaker and still call it HIS wine? Pressing juice is not a big step but
what about profesionally blending the juice or mixing in chemicals. What
about the places that will make the wine for you and put your label on it?
Is this going too far? What about doing all the steps except bottling so
you could just buy an expensive wine and pour it you your own bottle and put
your cork in it?

The competition should be judging the product of amature winemakers who make
homemade wine, not products partically made by someone else before the
winemaker gets it.

In conclusion. Kits and Juice wines should be judged separately as they are
not totally made by the winemaker. Maybe they should not even be entered in
competition for best of show! They were not totally made by the person who
entered it.

Ray

SG Brix, thank you for your kind words, but you missed what I was
saying. I said I have enetered competitions that judged separately:

CLASS A: GRAPE WINES (WHOLE, FRESH)
(numerous sub-categories)
CLASS B: FRUIT WINES (ANY FORM OF FRUIT OR BERRY)
(red [dry and sweet], white [dry and sweet])
CLASS C: GRAPE CONCENTRATE WINES (NOT KITS)
(numerous sub-categories)
CLASS D: KIT WINES (JUICE OR CONCENTRATE)
(numerous sub-categories)

They were not all judged together, as you inferref. The key word was
"separately."

> In all earnest their have to be a clear distinctive bar between all
> others and wine made from real grapes.

There was. That was my point. It was the fruit wines, I thought,
that got screwed. There were 48 categories for grape wines (adding
fresh, concentrates and kits), but only 4 for fruit. I didn't like
it, but I chose to live with it and entered. I did okay.

> Gods created the grape to wine; the rest is our own inability to not be able
> to do the first.

Excuse me if I strenuously disagree with you, but I think fresh fruit
wines are much more difficult to make well than fresh grape wines.
Fresh grapes, properly processed and managed, will make their own
wine. Not so with any other fruit. The winemaker has to intervene
numerous ways and make numerous decisions, any one of which can be
wrong and result in an unbalanced or even unpalatable wine.

Lots of people can make very good grape wines but cannot make very
good fruit wines. I don't know anyone who makes very good fruit wines
who doesn't also make very good grape wines. I'm thinking....
Nope--don't know anyone.

Have at it. I'm off to California for the next 3 1/2 weeks. I'll
check your comments when I return.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

"Jack Keller" > wrote in message
om...

<snip>
>
> Excuse me if I strenuously disagree with you, but I think fresh fruit
> wines are much more difficult to make well than fresh grape wines.
> Fresh grapes, properly processed and managed, will make their own
> wine. Not so with any other fruit. The winemaker has to intervene
> numerous ways and make numerous decisions, any one of which can be
> wrong and result in an unbalanced or even unpalatable wine.
>
> Lots of people can make very good grape wines but cannot make very
> good fruit wines. I don't know anyone who makes very good fruit wines
> who doesn't also make very good grape wines. I'm thinking....
> Nope--don't know anyone.
>
> Have at it. I'm off to California for the next 3 1/2 weeks. I'll
> check your comments when I return.
>
> Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

<snip>

Hi jack

Oh, SURE !! You light a fire and then run off to sunny California
leaving a few of us snow bound old Far*s to defend your position !!
;o) hehehe Just kidding. Enjoy the trip !!

Frederick

(sgbrix) wrote
Gods created the grape to wine; the rest is our
> own inability to not be able to do the first. And there is nothing
> wrong with that but it should be classified as country wine, expensive
> sold juice wine (kit wines), etc etc. By mixing them both you will
> have forever clouded the little spheres that we always associate as
> "real" wine

What a lot of c***

Remember that mankind has been cultivating and breeding grapes for
thousands of years. It's like letting a milk-cow loose in the prairies
to fend for himself because it's 'natures way'. Or whatever gods
creation. Dream on.

Rene.

(Jack Keller) wrote in message . com>...
> SG Brix, thank you for your kind words, but you missed what I was
> saying. I said I have enetered competitions that judged separately:
>
> CLASS A: GRAPE WINES (WHOLE, FRESH)
> (numerous sub-categories)
> CLASS B: FRUIT WINES (ANY FORM OF FRUIT OR BERRY)
> (red [dry and sweet], white [dry and sweet])
> CLASS C: GRAPE CONCENTRATE WINES (NOT KITS)
> (numerous sub-categories)
> CLASS D: KIT WINES (JUICE OR CONCENTRATE)
> (numerous sub-categories)
>
> They were not all judged together, as you inferref. The key word was
> "separately."
>

---snip

What would make sense in the end is simply to have a general category
sheet for any promoter of these events that subjects entries from wide
variants I categories we all would agree to, so it would be the same
coast to coast. To ever achieve this would only come under some for of
national organization that the promoter then could belong to.
>
> > Gods created the grape to wine; the rest is our own inability to not be able
> > to do the first.

Well, this of course is a pun, referring to the Gods...
>
> Excuse me if I strenuously disagree with you, but I think fresh fruit
> wines are much more difficult to make well than fresh grape wines.

This we can debate to drink while we emptying both of our cellars and
never come to any agreements. Hinting that real wines make themselves,
oh Jack, aren't we slipping now...

> Have at it. I'm off to California for the next 3 1/2 weeks. I'll
> check your comments when I return.

While there I hope you give the little spheres a try,

SG Brix

(Rene) wrote in message . com>...

> Remember that mankind has been cultivating and breeding grapes for
> thousands of years. It's like letting a milk-cow loose in the prairies
> to fend for himself because it's 'natures way'. Or whatever gods
> creation. Dream on.
>
Sorry you did not get my pun on God. God & wine have a close
association through all of our history, and I still think the serve
the stuff in church during special events...

Regarding your lost milk-cow, no you are right it is not natures way,
some would argue that it might be Gods way...

However "Dream on", is dead on.

SG Brix