I'm going to rack a barrel that I think has some modest H2S and I'm
wondering whether I can achieve the same effect by sparging the barrel
of wine with O2. It seems a lot easier that moving all that wine
around (without a pump). Thoughts?

"Michael Brill" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm going to rack a barrel that I think has some modest H2S and I'm
> wondering whether I can achieve the same effect by sparging the barrel
> of wine with O2. It seems a lot easier that moving all that wine
> around (without a pump). Thoughts?

You don't want to pump O2 through your wine unless you're making wine
vinegar. If the wine has just a slight case of H2S you can probably get rid
of it by stirring with a clean section of copper pipe. Hanging sterling
silver in it works too.

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message igy.com>...
> You don't want to pump O2 through your wine unless you're making wine
> vinegar. If the wine has just a slight case of H2S you can probably get rid
> of it by stirring with a clean section of copper pipe. Hanging sterling
> silver in it works too.
>
(This may be a re-post)
What's the difference between the oxygen contact from racking and
oxygen contact from pumping directly into the wine? I've got copper
sulfate and could get a copper pipe, but my understanding was that you
needed to rack off whatever preciptates out shortly anyway and I'm
trying to avoid racking.

"Michael Brill" > wrote:
> What's the difference between the oxygen contact from racking and
> oxygen contact from pumping directly into the wine? I've got copper
> sulfate and could get a copper pipe, but my understanding was that you
> needed to rack off whatever preciptates out shortly anyway and I'm
> trying to avoid racking.

Pumping oxygen through the wine will expose the wine to much more oxygen
than racking.

"Michael Brill" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom S" > wrote in message
igy.com>...
> > You don't want to pump O2 through your wine unless you're making wine
> > vinegar. If the wine has just a slight case of H2S you can probably get
rid
> > of it by stirring with a clean section of copper pipe. Hanging sterling
> > silver in it works too.
> >
> (This may be a re-post)
> What's the difference between the oxygen contact from racking and
> oxygen contact from pumping directly into the wine? I've got copper
> sulfate and could get a copper pipe, but my understanding was that you
> needed to rack off whatever preciptates out shortly anyway and I'm
> trying to avoid racking.
If it is sitting on lees, they are often the source of the H2S (a reductive
environment). Racking therefore has two advantages, you remove the source of
the problem, and a LITTLE air during racking will get rid of the H2S.
Bubbling air through is not recommended unless you have a commercial
micro-ox unit, and you're dealing with at least 2-3000L, because the air
contact is so extreme compared to racking.

Cheers,

Andrew

"Andrew L Drumm" > wrote in message >...
> If it is sitting on lees, they are often the source of the H2S (a reductive
> environment). Racking therefore has two advantages, you remove the source of
> the problem, and a LITTLE air during racking will get rid of the H2S.
> Bubbling air through is not recommended unless you have a commercial
> micro-ox unit, and you're dealing with at least 2-3000L, because the air
> contact is so extreme compared to racking.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>
I guess I won't ask why I can't just run a LITTLE air through a tank.
So this is the first I've heard about having to dump my lees. Note
that the wine pretty much smelled like this within a few days of
putting it into barrel. Also note that the barrel was heavily
sulphered when the wine went in. I gave it plenty of nutrients during
fermentation. What's the probability that the lees are the source?

"Michael Brill" > wrote:

> So this is the first I've heard about having to dump my lees. Note
> that the wine pretty much smelled like this within a few days of
> putting it into barrel. Also note that the barrel was heavily
> sulphered when the wine went in. I gave it plenty of nutrients during
> fermentation. What's the probability that the lees are the source?

Excess sulphite can cause H2S problems. Nutrients (especially diammonium
phosphate) will help prevent H2S problems, but they can only do so much.
97.3%.

"Michael Brill" > wrote in message
om...
> So this is the first I've heard about having to dump my lees. Note
> that the wine pretty much smelled like this within a few days of
> putting it into barrel. Also note that the barrel was heavily
> sulphered when the wine went in. I gave it plenty of nutrients during
> fermentation. What's the probability that the lees are the source?

At leest (pun intended!) 99.9%.

Tom S

"Michael Brill" > wrote in message > I guess I won't
ask why I can't just run a LITTLE air through a tank.
> So this is the first I've heard about having to dump my lees. Note
> that the wine pretty much smelled like this within a few days of
> putting it into barrel. Also note that the barrel was heavily
> sulphered when the wine went in. I gave it plenty of nutrients during
> fermentation. What's the probability that the lees are the source?
Have to agree with Tom - lees are almost definitely the culprit.
Yes, you could run a little air through a tank, but it is extremely hard to
control. For instance I wouldn't recommend bubbling enough that you actually
get bubbles at the surface, because this may indicate that you are
saturating the wine with oxygen - bad thing. You're going to have to rack
anyhow, and it is one of the best ways of getting a limited amount of air
in, so look on it as being a good thing for your wine, pain in the whatsit
that it is.

Based on Tom's suggestion a few years ago I hung a small piece of
sterling in a barrel that had a moderate H2S smell and was quite
surprised that this totally solved the problem. I did however, rack it
off the lees at that point. I don't believe I added DAP (diammonium
phosphate) as it was a little too late for that.

It is a very decent bordeaux-styled blend and the wine is safely ageing
in bottles.

Cheers,

Glen Duff

Tom S wrote:

> "Michael Brill" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>I'm going to rack a barrel that I think has some modest H2S and I'm
>>wondering whether I can achieve the same effect by sparging the barrel
>>of wine with O2. It seems a lot easier that moving all that wine
>>around (without a pump). Thoughts?
>>
>
> You don't want to pump O2 through your wine unless you're making wine
> vinegar. If the wine has just a slight case of H2S you can probably get rid
> of it by stirring with a clean section of copper pipe. Hanging sterling
> silver in it works too.
>
> Tom S
>
>
>

>
>Excess sulphite can cause H2S problems.

This statement is false.

Perhaps you mean elemental sulfur from the vineyard? in which case an
excess is not required.



clyde

FYI, the difference between sparging and racking is also that racking
releases dissolved gas but sparging with O2 just forces the incoming
gas into solution. You wanna sparge, you sparge with argon or
nitrogen...NOT air NOT O2.

But the barrel--it is standard practice to burn sulfur inside for
storage--it produces SO2 in situ. Such a barrel is supposed to be
rinsed with a 1% citric acid+1% metabisulfite solution, and then
rinsed with clear water until there is no smell, and the immediately
filled with wine (see Pambianchi book).

So also, the gross lees do not go into the barrel. You rack into the
barrel from the primary fermentation. The fine lees dropped are
enough to produce the "sur lie" style if that's what you want.

Irene

(Michael Brill) wrote in message > >
> I guess I won't ask why I can't just run a LITTLE air through a tank.
> So this is the first I've heard about having to dump my lees. Note
> that the wine pretty much smelled like this within a few days of

> putting it into barrel. Also note that the barrel was heavily
> sulphered when the wine went in. I gave it plenty of nutrients during
> fermentation. What's the probability that the lees are the source?

"Tom S" > wrote in message om>...
> At leest (pun intended!) 99.9%.
>
> Tom S

I promise I won't tell anyone you wrote that ;-).

More details... this was actually one out of four barrels. The other
three barrels are fine and have not had any H2S problem. They all
went into the same type and source of 2 year old oak. The only
difference was this batch was heavily "manipulated" while the others
were minimally processed. Specifically, the differences a

* Innoculated with cultured yeast
* 30 ppm sulfites added at crush
* Enzymes added
* Fermaid added
* Hot ferment (let it get to about 95F for a day)

The other three barrels (that are fine) were all native yeast, < 20ppm
sulfites, no enzymes, no fermaid and fermented < 85F.

Does any of this correlate with H2S? If not, what's the chance that
it was the barrel?

OK, 12 ml of 1% copper sulfate has been added. Stirred it up and I'll
check it out tomororrow. Assuming the H2S is gone, then I'll rack it.
I intend to transfer the lees with some wine to a carboy and keep it.
My thought is that if I "quarantine" the lees for awhile and the H2S
doesn't return, then I can just put it back in. Thoughts?

"Michael Brill" > wrote in message
om...
> OK, 12 ml of 1% copper sulfate has been added. Stirred it up and I'll
> check it out tomororrow. Assuming the H2S is gone, then I'll rack it.
> I intend to transfer the lees with some wine to a carboy and keep it.
> My thought is that if I "quarantine" the lees for awhile and the H2S
> doesn't return, then I can just put it back in. Thoughts?

If those lees were the source of an H2S problem, I'd return them to the
_vineyard_ before putting them back in the barrel.

I've learned the hard way that it's best to rack reds from the gross lees
ASAP (within hours) after pressing. Fine lees are OK.

BTW, if you treated the wine with copper sulfate, the results should be
apparent within minutes. This reaction goes very fast.

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message . com>...
> If those lees were the source of an H2S problem, I'd return them to the
> _vineyard_ before putting them back in the barrel.
>
> I've learned the hard way that it's best to rack reds from the gross lees
> ASAP (within hours) after pressing. Fine lees are OK.
>
> BTW, if you treated the wine with copper sulfate, the results should be
> apparent within minutes. This reaction goes very fast.
>
If the lees are the source of H2S and I quarantine them with a couple
of gallons of wine and it doesn't stink after a month or two, then
what's the argument against returning them to the barrel? The
argument for seems to be the additional complexity that can add. But,
like most of winemaking, it seems to be more tradition and opinion
than anything else.

As I posted elsewhere, the copper sulfate worked like a charm -
thanks! I was quite surprised to find the offending odor completely
gone when I checked tonight.

"Michael Brill" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom S" > wrote in message
om>...
> > At leest (pun intended!) 99.9%.
> >
> > Tom S
>
> I promise I won't tell anyone you wrote that ;-).
>
> More details... this was actually one out of four barrels. The other
> three barrels are fine and have not had any H2S problem. They all
> went into the same type and source of 2 year old oak. The only
> difference was this batch was heavily "manipulated" while the others
> were minimally processed. Specifically, the differences a
>
> * Innoculated with cultured yeast
> * 30 ppm sulfites added at crush
> * Enzymes added
> * Fermaid added
> * Hot ferment (let it get to about 95F for a day)
This could be it - the hot ferment may have stressed the yeast.
Cultured yeast are generally bred not to produce H2S and to withstand
sulphur dioxide. Enzymes should reduce the propensity to get smelly, unless
you then super-clarified the juice. Fermaid should have reduced H2S, unless
it doesn't contain any nitrogen - DAP is habitually added commercially.