(LC312) wrote in
:

> i have 6gals. of cab. from grapes. after 1st rack i have an egg smell.
> is the wine bad or is there a way to save it.
>

Give it time. What you are smelling could be the by-products of the yeast.
I do not remember a sulpher/egg smell with my cab, but there was a very
noticable sulpher/egg smell when I did a lager beer last winter. What
yeast are you using? I used a vial of the White Labs cab yeast.

i have 6gals. of cab. from grapes. after 1st rack i have an egg smell. is the
wine bad or is there a way to save it.

"LC312" > wrote in message
...
> i have 6gals. of cab. from grapes. after 1st rack i have an egg smell. is
the
> wine bad or is there a way to save it.

Info here LC.
http://www.sdaws.org/Articles/Articles.htm
Look under "Hydrogen Sulfide in Fermentations"

"LC312" > wrote in message
...
> i have 6gals. of cab. from grapes. after 1st rack i have an egg smell. is
the
> wine bad or is there a way to save it.

Sounds like hydrogen sulfide to me. Left untreated it'll get worse, but you
can save it by treating it with copper. Try stirring it with a clean piece
of copper pipe or pouring it over a sheet of copper into another container.
If it's only a slight case, simply aerating the wine might blow it off.

Tom S

We have a two 5 gal batches of wine. One Watermelon Elderberry and one
Watermelon Peach. They both have what we described as a perm solution
smell. I'm thinking that this could be the same as you are discussing here.
After reading the posts here I'm considering buying a copper pipe and
stirring it a little after each racking. Does this sound like a good idea?
We were worried that the cause was because of the low alcohol content of
the wine. We are new to the winemaking (first year) and most of our first
few batches seemed very strong alcohol content so we decided to make these
batches a little weaker. We used Jack Keller's recipes but cut the sugar
almost in half. The result should be a around a 8 percent alcohol content
wine. We were afraid that the low content allowed for bacteria to spoil the
wine. Is this possible?
"LC312" > wrote in message
...
> i have 6gals. of cab. from grapes. after 1st rack i have an egg smell. is
the
> wine bad or is there a way to save it.

8% is a little low and could give you a spoilage problem. 11 to 13% is the
standard for commercial wines for that reason. I personally would add a
little more sugar to get 11%
I purchased some copper sulfate which is for getting rid of sulphur odors
after fermentation, but it has to be used just right. I bought it and I am
afraid to use it.besides, the problem went away with a couple of rackings
done in the same day
--
Roger & Lynda

"Tom and Shelley" > wrote in message
link.net...
> We have a two 5 gal batches of wine. One Watermelon Elderberry and
one
> Watermelon Peach. They both have what we described as a perm solution
> smell. I'm thinking that this could be the same as you are discussing
here.
> After reading the posts here I'm considering buying a copper pipe and
> stirring it a little after each racking. Does this sound like a good
idea?
> We were worried that the cause was because of the low alcohol content
of
> the wine. We are new to the winemaking (first year) and most of our first
> few batches seemed very strong alcohol content so we decided to make these
> batches a little weaker. We used Jack Keller's recipes but cut the sugar
> almost in half. The result should be a around a 8 percent alcohol content
> wine. We were afraid that the low content allowed for bacteria to spoil
the
> wine. Is this possible?
> "LC312" > wrote in message
> ...
> > i have 6gals. of cab. from grapes. after 1st rack i have an egg smell.
is
> the
> > wine bad or is there a way to save it.
>
>

"Roger" > wrote in message
k.net...
> 8% is a little low and could give you a spoilage problem. 11 to 13% is
the
> standard for commercial wines for that reason. I personally would add a
> little more sugar to get 11%
> I purchased some copper sulfate which is for getting rid of sulphur odors
> after fermentation, but it has to be used just right. I bought it and I
am
> afraid to use it.besides, the problem went away with a couple of rackings
> done in the same day
> --
> Roger & Lynda

No need to be afraid of using copper sulfate Roger. Here is some info
http://www.sdaws.org/Articles/Article4.htm

It looks as if the low alchol may have done in at least a gallon of my
wine. I just went down to take a look. For the batch of watermelon/
elderberry I had a 5 gal carboy and a gallon carboy half full that I was
going to use to top off when racking. The smell is getting better with age
but the gallon has developed some mold on the top. I don't recon I have any
choice but to trash it. The 5 gal carboy does not have any visible mold.
What I was considering doing was to rack it, and add enough sugar to bring
it up to around 11%. My question is how do I know how much sugar to add.
Unfortunatly I do not have a starting brix reading.
Also, it had stopped fermenting quite a while ago. Will all the yeast
be dead? Will I have to add some and if so how much?
I think that maybe the reason the 5 gal did not mold is because it is
full. The lack of air may have prevented it from spoiling to this point.
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thank you,
Tom and Shelley
t
"Roger" > wrote in message
k.net...
> 8% is a little low and could give you a spoilage problem. 11 to 13% is
the
> standard for commercial wines for that reason. I personally would add a
> little more sugar to get 11%
> I purchased some copper sulfate which is for getting rid of sulphur odors
> after fermentation, but it has to be used just right. I bought it and I
am
> afraid to use it.besides, the problem went away with a couple of rackings
> done in the same day
> --
> Roger & Lynda
>
> "Tom and Shelley" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > We have a two 5 gal batches of wine. One Watermelon Elderberry and
> one
> > Watermelon Peach. They both have what we described as a perm solution
> > smell. I'm thinking that this could be the same as you are discussing
> here.
> > After reading the posts here I'm considering buying a copper pipe and
> > stirring it a little after each racking. Does this sound like a good
> idea?
> > We were worried that the cause was because of the low alcohol
content
> of
> > the wine. We are new to the winemaking (first year) and most of our
first
> > few batches seemed very strong alcohol content so we decided to make
these
> > batches a little weaker. We used Jack Keller's recipes but cut the
sugar
> > almost in half. The result should be a around a 8 percent alcohol
content
> > wine. We were afraid that the low content allowed for bacteria to spoil
> the
> > wine. Is this possible?
> > "LC312" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > i have 6gals. of cab. from grapes. after 1st rack i have an egg smell.
> is
> > the
> > > wine bad or is there a way to save it.
> >
> >
>
>

On 11/1/03 6:25 PM, in article
, "Tom and Shelley"
> wrote:

> It looks as if the low alchol may have done in at least a gallon of my
> wine. I just went down to take a look. For the batch of watermelon/
> elderberry I had a 5 gal carboy and a gallon carboy half full that I was
> going to use to top off when racking. The smell is getting better with age
> but the gallon has developed some mold on the top. I don't recon I have any
> choice but to trash it. The 5 gal carboy does not have any visible mold.

Wines with mold are not necessarily lost -- how does the wine taste and
smell? If that is ok, the wine is not yet spoiled. What you need to do is
rack off the wine, leaving all the mold behind and dose it with sulfite to
keep more mold from growing. Keep it in a topped up container.

> What I was considering doing was to rack it, and add enough sugar to bring
> it up to around 11%. My question is how do I know how much sugar to add.
> Unfortunatly I do not have a starting brix reading.

Hmm, without an initial sugar reading, you are shooting in the dark. You
could estimate the alcohol if you know how much sugar you added in the
beginning and estimate a brix from the amount. Otherwise, you could feed
your wine a little bit of sugar at a time until it tastes like it has a high
enough alcohol to be wine.

> Also, it had stopped fermenting quite a while ago. Will all the yeast
> be dead? Will I have to add some and if so how much?

No, all your yeast is not dead. If you add sugar, it will undoubtedly
restart fermentation -- however, if it is pretty clear, it will be slow. You
could make a new yeast starter and pitch that in. If it is still on the
lees, there are probably lots of yeasts still alive down there. You could
add sugar and stir up the lees.

> I think that maybe the reason the 5 gal did not mold is because it is
> full. The lack of air may have prevented it from spoiling to this point.

That is likely -- was your gallon container not topped up? That is inviting
trouble.


--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email)

The wine still has a "perm solution" type smell which it has had from
the start. As far as taste it is still pretty bitter but then so is all the
wines we have so far. They seem to be getting better with age.
You suggested adding sulfite. I have a little Potassium Metabisulfiite
and a lot of Sodium Metabisulfiite. Would either work? How much would I
need to add to a 5 gallon carboy. I also have Campden Crush tablets and
Potassium Sorbate stabilizer.
I guess I should consider another way of toping off. The gallon jug was
the smallest container I had at the time and it was not topped up. I hate
to add water because most of our wines have such a weak flavor to begin
with. Maybe I will buy some small bungs and use wine bottles full to top up
when I don't have a gallon.

"Greg Cook" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/1/03 6:25 PM, in article
> , "Tom and Shelley"
> > wrote:
>
> > It looks as if the low alchol may have done in at least a gallon of my
> > wine. I just went down to take a look. For the batch of watermelon/
> > elderberry I had a 5 gal carboy and a gallon carboy half full that I was
> > going to use to top off when racking. The smell is getting better with
age
> > but the gallon has developed some mold on the top. I don't recon I have
any
> > choice but to trash it. The 5 gal carboy does not have any visible
mold.
>
> Wines with mold are not necessarily lost -- how does the wine taste and
> smell? If that is ok, the wine is not yet spoiled. What you need to do is
> rack off the wine, leaving all the mold behind and dose it with sulfite to
> keep more mold from growing. Keep it in a topped up container.
>
> > What I was considering doing was to rack it, and add enough sugar to
bring
> > it up to around 11%. My question is how do I know how much sugar to
add.
> > Unfortunatly I do not have a starting brix reading.
>
> Hmm, without an initial sugar reading, you are shooting in the dark. You
> could estimate the alcohol if you know how much sugar you added in the
> beginning and estimate a brix from the amount. Otherwise, you could feed
> your wine a little bit of sugar at a time until it tastes like it has a
high
> enough alcohol to be wine.
>
> > Also, it had stopped fermenting quite a while ago. Will all the
yeast
> > be dead? Will I have to add some and if so how much?
>
> No, all your yeast is not dead. If you add sugar, it will undoubtedly
> restart fermentation -- however, if it is pretty clear, it will be slow.
You
> could make a new yeast starter and pitch that in. If it is still on the
> lees, there are probably lots of yeasts still alive down there. You could
> add sugar and stir up the lees.
>
> > I think that maybe the reason the 5 gal did not mold is because it is
> > full. The lack of air may have prevented it from spoiling to this
point.
>
> That is likely -- was your gallon container not topped up? That is
inviting
> trouble.
>
>
> --
> Greg Cook
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
>
> (remove spamblocker from my email)
>

Maybe I will buy some small bungs and use wine bottles full to top up
when I don't have a gallon.


try buying a couple of 1liter wide mouth sodas, then use the bottles when your
finished drinking the soda. a # 6 and # 7 bung will fit. dont forget to clean
bottles before use. they work in a pinch. i dont know how long you can keep
wine in them tho.

"Tom and Shelley" > wrote:

> The wine still has a "perm solution" type smell which it has had from
> the start. As far as taste it is still pretty bitter but then so is all
the
> wines we have so far. They seem to be getting better with age.

If, by "perm solution", you mean your wine smells like the chemicals used by
beauty parlors to make hair curly (e.g. Ammonium hydroxide, Ammonium
thioglycolate, Glyceryl monothioglycolate, and Sodium hydroxide ), I suggest
you take it to the nearest toxic waste dump.

If you are describing a different odor, there may be a remedy.

> You suggested adding sulfite. I have a little Potassium
Metabisulfiite
> and a lot of Sodium Metabisulfiite. Would either work? How much would I
> need to add to a 5 gallon carboy. I also have Campden Crush tablets and
> Potassium Sorbate stabilizer.

Sulfite (SO2) should not be added to a fermenting wine. It can and should be
added pre-ferment, and post-ferment to a level of ~50ppm depending on the
condition of the wine. Potassium Metabisulphite is preferable to Sodium, but
both will do the job. 0.33 gram per gallon will yield ~50ppm, as will one
CRUSHED campden tablet per gallon. Potassium sorbate has an entirely
different purpose.

> I guess I should consider another way of toping off. The gallon jug
was
> the smallest container I had at the time and it was not topped up. I hate
> to add water because most of our wines have such a weak flavor to begin
> with. Maybe I will buy some small bungs and use wine bottles full to top
up
> when I don't have a gallon.

You can top off with distilled water or similar wine. Alternately, you can
add sterilized glass or stainless steel marbles to the carboy. Alternately,
you can use a variety of smaller containers. If you leave excess headroom
(more than an inch), you are inviting (if not guaranteeing) bacterial
spoilage.

I always add 1/4 tsp of Potassium Metabisulfiite or Sodium Metabisulfiite yo
5 gallons of wine. I use a little less than 1/2 of a 1/8th teaspoon for 1
gallon
I always use it whenever I rack and I have no problems with mold or even
stopping the ferment in secondary
Potassium Sorbate is used to stop yeast from regenerating itself. I very
seldom use it because I feed my wines with sugar to high alc to kill the
yeast. I use Cote de Blanc yeast for wines I want less alc volume in.

--
Roger & Lynda

"Tom and Shelley" > wrote in message
k.net...
> The wine still has a "perm solution" type smell which it has had from
> the start. As far as taste it is still pretty bitter but then so is all
the
> wines we have so far. They seem to be getting better with age.
> You suggested adding sulfite. I have a little Potassium
Metabisulfiite
> and a lot of Sodium Metabisulfiite. Would either work? How much would I
> need to add to a 5 gallon carboy. I also have Campden Crush tablets and
> Potassium Sorbate stabilizer.
> I guess I should consider another way of toping off. The gallon jug
was
> the smallest container I had at the time and it was not topped up. I hate
> to add water because most of our wines have such a weak flavor to begin
> with. Maybe I will buy some small bungs and use wine bottles full to top
up
> when I don't have a gallon.
>
> "Greg Cook" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 11/1/03 6:25 PM, in article
> > , "Tom and Shelley"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > It looks as if the low alchol may have done in at least a gallon of
my
> > > wine. I just went down to take a look. For the batch of watermelon/
> > > elderberry I had a 5 gal carboy and a gallon carboy half full that I
was
> > > going to use to top off when racking. The smell is getting better
with
> age
> > > but the gallon has developed some mold on the top. I don't recon I
have
> any
> > > choice but to trash it. The 5 gal carboy does not have any visible
> mold.
> >
> > Wines with mold are not necessarily lost -- how does the wine taste and
> > smell? If that is ok, the wine is not yet spoiled. What you need to do
is
> > rack off the wine, leaving all the mold behind and dose it with sulfite
to
> > keep more mold from growing. Keep it in a topped up container.
> >
> > > What I was considering doing was to rack it, and add enough sugar to
> bring
> > > it up to around 11%. My question is how do I know how much sugar to
> add.
> > > Unfortunatly I do not have a starting brix reading.
> >
> > Hmm, without an initial sugar reading, you are shooting in the dark. You
> > could estimate the alcohol if you know how much sugar you added in the
> > beginning and estimate a brix from the amount. Otherwise, you could
feed
> > your wine a little bit of sugar at a time until it tastes like it has a
> high
> > enough alcohol to be wine.
> >
> > > Also, it had stopped fermenting quite a while ago. Will all the
> yeast
> > > be dead? Will I have to add some and if so how much?
> >
> > No, all your yeast is not dead. If you add sugar, it will undoubtedly
> > restart fermentation -- however, if it is pretty clear, it will be slow.
> You
> > could make a new yeast starter and pitch that in. If it is still on the
> > lees, there are probably lots of yeasts still alive down there. You
could
> > add sugar and stir up the lees.
> >
> > > I think that maybe the reason the 5 gal did not mold is because it
is
> > > full. The lack of air may have prevented it from spoiling to this
> point.
> >
> > That is likely -- was your gallon container not topped up? That is
> inviting
> > trouble.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Greg Cook
> > http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> >
> > (remove spamblocker from my email)
> >
>
>

I have not used the Potassium Sorbate yet for any thing. We like our
wines with a little sweetness, not completely dry. The local winery
recommended using it just before sweetening and bottling to prevent the wine
from starting to ferment again in the bottle. I have also used 1/4 tsp of
Potassium Metabisulfiite at each racking but not in the original must.
What I did today was I racked the 5 gal and used slightly more than 1/4
tsp of Potassium Metabisulfiite just in case (It had not started to mold at
this point.) On the gallon that started to mold I used about and1/8 tsp and
racked it into 2 wine bottles that would be filled to the top. I did not
have a bung or air lock small enough so I covered them with saran wrap until
I can get some. They are completely dry and therefore should not need to
vent anymore. I just want to keep the air out, correct? I don't want to
risk adding the bottles to the 5 gallon for fear of spreading the mold but I
wasn't ready to trash it quite yet.
Thanks,
Tom and Shelley
"Roger" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I always add 1/4 tsp of Potassium Metabisulfiite or Sodium Metabisulfiite
yo
> 5 gallons of wine. I use a little less than 1/2 of a 1/8th teaspoon for 1
> gallon
> I always use it whenever I rack and I have no problems with mold or even
> stopping the ferment in secondary
> Potassium Sorbate is used to stop yeast from regenerating itself. I very
> seldom use it because I feed my wines with sugar to high alc to kill the
> yeast. I use Cote de Blanc yeast for wines I want less alc volume in.
>
> --
> Roger & Lynda
>
> "Tom and Shelley" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > The wine still has a "perm solution" type smell which it has had
from
> > the start. As far as taste it is still pretty bitter but then so is all
> the
> > wines we have so far. They seem to be getting better with age.
> > You suggested adding sulfite. I have a little Potassium
> Metabisulfiite
> > and a lot of Sodium Metabisulfiite. Would either work? How much would
I
> > need to add to a 5 gallon carboy. I also have Campden Crush tablets and
> > Potassium Sorbate stabilizer.
> > I guess I should consider another way of toping off. The gallon jug
> was
> > the smallest container I had at the time and it was not topped up. I
hate
> > to add water because most of our wines have such a weak flavor to begin
> > with. Maybe I will buy some small bungs and use wine bottles full to
top
> up
> > when I don't have a gallon.
> >
> > "Greg Cook" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On 11/1/03 6:25 PM, in article
> > > , "Tom and Shelley"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It looks as if the low alchol may have done in at least a gallon
of
> my
> > > > wine. I just went down to take a look. For the batch of
watermelon/
> > > > elderberry I had a 5 gal carboy and a gallon carboy half full that I
> was
> > > > going to use to top off when racking. The smell is getting better
> with
> > age
> > > > but the gallon has developed some mold on the top. I don't recon I
> have
> > any
> > > > choice but to trash it. The 5 gal carboy does not have any visible
> > mold.
> > >
> > > Wines with mold are not necessarily lost -- how does the wine taste
and
> > > smell? If that is ok, the wine is not yet spoiled. What you need to do
> is
> > > rack off the wine, leaving all the mold behind and dose it with
sulfite
> to
> > > keep more mold from growing. Keep it in a topped up container.
> > >
> > > > What I was considering doing was to rack it, and add enough sugar to
> > bring
> > > > it up to around 11%. My question is how do I know how much sugar to
> > add.
> > > > Unfortunatly I do not have a starting brix reading.
> > >
> > > Hmm, without an initial sugar reading, you are shooting in the dark.
You
> > > could estimate the alcohol if you know how much sugar you added in the
> > > beginning and estimate a brix from the amount. Otherwise, you could
> feed
> > > your wine a little bit of sugar at a time until it tastes like it has
a
> > high
> > > enough alcohol to be wine.
> > >
> > > > Also, it had stopped fermenting quite a while ago. Will all the
> > yeast
> > > > be dead? Will I have to add some and if so how much?
> > >
> > > No, all your yeast is not dead. If you add sugar, it will undoubtedly
> > > restart fermentation -- however, if it is pretty clear, it will be
slow.
> > You
> > > could make a new yeast starter and pitch that in. If it is still on
the
> > > lees, there are probably lots of yeasts still alive down there. You
> could
> > > add sugar and stir up the lees.
> > >
> > > > I think that maybe the reason the 5 gal did not mold is because it
> is
> > > > full. The lack of air may have prevented it from spoiling to this
> > point.
> > >
> > > That is likely -- was your gallon container not topped up? That is
> > inviting
> > > trouble.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Greg Cook
> > > http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> > >
> > > (remove spamblocker from my email)
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"Tom and Shelley" > wrote:

> What I did today was I racked the 5 gal and used slightly more than
1/4
> tsp of Potassium Metabisulfiite just in case (It had not started to mold
at
> this point.) On the gallon that started to mold I used about and1/8 tsp
and
> racked it into 2 wine bottles that would be filled to the top. I did not
> have a bung or air lock small enough so I covered them with saran wrap
until
> I can get some. They are completely dry and therefore should not need to
> vent anymore. I just want to keep the air out, correct? I don't want to
> risk adding the bottles to the 5 gallon for fear of spreading the mold but
I
> wasn't ready to trash it quite yet.

Saran wrap with TWO rubber bands (in case one break) will not only keep the
air (and bacteria) out, but it will also act as an airlock, and allow any
CO2 to escape (the pressurized gas can push past the rubber bands). So you
don't need to order smaller bungs.

I assume you removed the mold from the surface before racking? It might not
be a bad idea (even now) to pour the wine through a coffee filter, although
the sulfite should kill it. The additional aeration should also help
somewhat with the H2S problem (if it is H2S).

I did not remove the mold from the top but I was very careful not to
disturb it. When I got down to where the it would begin to syphon up the
mold I stopped and dumped the rest. It mold was a very light haze on top
with a few small spots. It was not covering the top of the wine.
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say H2S? It has a smell
that we orginally called "perm solution" but I think it could be a "rotten
egg" smell. Either way it has gotten noticibly better with age and racking
does seem to help.
Thanks,
Tom and Shelley

"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom and Shelley" > wrote:
>
> > What I did today was I racked the 5 gal and used slightly more than
> 1/4
> > tsp of Potassium Metabisulfiite just in case (It had not started to mold
> at
> > this point.) On the gallon that started to mold I used about and1/8 tsp
> and
> > racked it into 2 wine bottles that would be filled to the top. I did
not
> > have a bung or air lock small enough so I covered them with saran wrap
> until
> > I can get some. They are completely dry and therefore should not need
to
> > vent anymore. I just want to keep the air out, correct? I don't want to
> > risk adding the bottles to the 5 gallon for fear of spreading the mold
but
> I
> > wasn't ready to trash it quite yet.
>
> Saran wrap with TWO rubber bands (in case one break) will not only keep
the
> air (and bacteria) out, but it will also act as an airlock, and allow any
> CO2 to escape (the pressurized gas can push past the rubber bands). So you
> don't need to order smaller bungs.
>
> I assume you removed the mold from the surface before racking? It might
not
> be a bad idea (even now) to pour the wine through a coffee filter,
although
> the sulfite should kill it. The additional aeration should also help
> somewhat with the H2S problem (if it is H2S).
>
>

"Tom and Shelley" > wrote:
> I did not remove the mold from the top but I was very careful not to
> disturb it. When I got down to where the it would begin to syphon up the
> mold I stopped and dumped the rest. It mold was a very light haze on top
> with a few small spots. It was not covering the top of the wine.

Hopefully, that will suffice.

> I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say H2S? It has a
smell
> that we orginally called "perm solution" but I think it could be a "rotten
> egg" smell. Either way it has gotten noticibly better with age and
racking
> does seem to help.

H2S is the chemical formula for hydrogen sulphide, which is the chemical
which gives rotten eggs their peculiar odour. The smell is quite different
from permanent wave (?) solutions, but it is more likely that you are
smelling H2S. If so, racking, aerating, and stirring with a piece of copper
wire, or length of copper pipe, will help. I believe the most common cause
of H2S problems is over-sulfiting.

The mold is a different problem, and almost certainly the result of the
excess head room.