I have just tried some of my 2007 red(Regent,a German hybrid that
ripens well in England),and although quite good and fruity and well
balanced with respect to acid,seems a little harsh in terms of
tannin.I usually ferment on the skins for 4-5 days when making
reds,and wonder if this is too long for future batches.How can one
tell what is the correct time for fermentation on the skins?Presumably
there should be enough alcohol present in the early stages to dissolve
the red pigment.It is sometimes quite difficult to tell when the
fermentation has started.
Michael
P.S.I assume that the tannin will precipitate out eventually if I
leave it some while longer in a demijohn.

Did MLF complete? Sounds like it might not have. Did you sulfite after
primary was done?


On Oct 9, 11:30*am, michael > wrote:
> I have just tried some of my 2007 red(Regent,a German hybrid that
> ripens well in England),and although quite good and fruity and well
> balanced with respect to acid,seems a little harsh in terms of
> tannin.I usually ferment on the skins for 4-5 days when making
> reds,and wonder if this is too long for future batches.How can one
> tell what is the correct time for fermentation on the skins?Presumably
> there should be enough alcohol present in the early stages to dissolve
> the red pigment.It is sometimes quite difficult to tell when the
> fermentation has started.
> Michael
> P.S.I assume that the tannin will precipitate out eventually if I
> leave it some while longer in a demijohn.

michael wrote:

> I have just tried some of my 2007 red(Regent,a German hybrid that
> ripens well in England),and although quite good and fruity and well
> balanced with respect to acid,seems a little harsh in terms of
> tannin.I usually ferment on the skins for 4-5 days when making
> reds,and wonder if this is too long for future batches.How can one
> tell what is the correct time for fermentation on the skins?Presumably
> there should be enough alcohol present in the early stages to dissolve
> the red pigment.It is sometimes quite difficult to tell when the
> fermentation has started.
> Michael
> P.S.I assume that the tannin will precipitate out eventually if I
> leave it some while longer in a demijohn.

It is a balancing act. What is the pH and TA. If the acids are high, then
the tannins really exacerbate the harshness. If the acids are on the low
to moderate side then you can have more tannins without excessive
harshness. I am learning this the hard way myself.

On 9 Oct, 23:13, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > I have just tried some of my 2007 red(Regent,a German hybrid that
> > ripens well in England),and although quite good and fruity and well
> > balanced with respect to acid,seems a little harsh in terms of
> > tannin.I usually ferment on the skins for 4-5 days when making
> > reds,and wonder if this is too long for future batches.How can one
> > tell what is the correct time for fermentation on the skins?Presumably
> > there should be enough alcohol present in the early stages to dissolve
> > the red pigment.It is sometimes quite difficult to tell when the
> > fermentation has started.
> > Michael
> > P.S.I assume that the tannin will precipitate out eventually if I
> > leave it some while longer in a demijohn.
>
> It is a balancing act. What is the pH and TA. If the acids are high, then
> the tannins really exacerbate the harshness. *If the acids are on the low
> to moderate side then you can have more tannins without excessive
> harshness. *I am learning this the hard way myself.

I do not want to care too much about malolactic fermentation for
winemaking,as I have tried following the methodology for my
cidermaking and it has not improved anything.
I use 30ppm sulfite on pressing and then another 30ppm on final
racking off into demijohns.The wine does not appear very sharp at
all,and generally it has a very nice fruity aroma and taste-juste a
little astringency as an aftertaste which I put down to
tannins.Incidentally I was very careful to remove all of the stalks
before leaving the wine to ferment on the skins for 4-5 days,as I
understand that this can cause an excess of tannin.
I use pH strips regularly with my cider and white wine making,but find
them difficult to use with red wine,due to the red colouring of the
pressed liquid even before fermentation starts.I have not yet got into
Titratable Acid measurements,since I do not have the kit yet.The vine
varieties that I have are all early ripening,and I pick the fruit when
it is ripe_I do not think that I have a serious acidity problem.I do
get white tartaric acid(?) crystals deposit out from my white wines
quite often,but I think this is normal.
I have read that a tiny amount of gelatin can be used to remave excess
tannins.Is this a good idea?
Cheers
Michael

michael wrote:

> On 9 Oct, 23:13, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> michael wrote:
>> > I have just tried some of my 2007 red(Regent,a German hybrid that
>> > ripens well in England),and although quite good and fruity and well
>> > balanced with respect to acid,seems a little harsh in terms of
>> > tannin.I usually ferment on the skins for 4-5 days when making
>> > reds,and wonder if this is too long for future batches.How can one
>> > tell what is the correct time for fermentation on the skins?Presumably
>> > there should be enough alcohol present in the early stages to dissolve
>> > the red pigment.It is sometimes quite difficult to tell when the
>> > fermentation has started.
>> > Michael
>> > P.S.I assume that the tannin will precipitate out eventually if I
>> > leave it some while longer in a demijohn.
>>
>> It is a balancing act. What is the pH and TA. If the acids are high, then
>> the tannins really exacerbate the harshness. Â*If the acids are on the low
>> to moderate side then you can have more tannins without excessive
>> harshness. Â*I am learning this the hard way myself.
>
> I do not want to care too much about malolactic fermentation for
> winemaking,as I have tried following the methodology for my
> cidermaking and it has not improved anything.
> I use 30ppm sulfite on pressing and then another 30ppm on final
> racking off into demijohns.The wine does not appear very sharp at
> all,and generally it has a very nice fruity aroma and taste-juste a
> little astringency as an aftertaste which I put down to
> tannins.Incidentally I was very careful to remove all of the stalks
> before leaving the wine to ferment on the skins for 4-5 days,as I
> understand that this can cause an excess of tannin.
> I use pH strips regularly with my cider and white wine making,but find
> them difficult to use with red wine,due to the red colouring of the
> pressed liquid even before fermentation starts.I have not yet got into
> Titratable Acid measurements,since I do not have the kit yet.The vine
> varieties that I have are all early ripening,and I pick the fruit when
> it is ripe_I do not think that I have a serious acidity problem.I do
> get white tartaric acid(?) crystals deposit out from my white wines
> quite often,but I think this is normal.
> I have read that a tiny amount of gelatin can be used to remave excess
> tannins.Is this a good idea?
> Cheers
> Michael

Try a bench trial first. Don't add it to your whole batch until you
experiment with a small amount.

As for the ML, it is added by many not just to reduce acid but as an
insurance policy against spontaneous or self starting ML which can occur
post bottling - not a good thing to have happen.

Since a lot of wines will go through ML if you add it or not, it is a good
idea to add a good strain of it as opposed to letting mother nature use
whatever is there which may or may not produce what you want.

If you do not want ML to occur on its own, you are probably going to want
your SO2 to be more than what you have added thus far. Of the 60 ppm, about
half if it is going to be bound.

The California Wine Institute proposes an upper limit of 175 ppm for reds
and 225 ppm for whites. The FDA allows up to 350 ppm

Here is a good reference:
http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/SO2/SO2.htm

While a lot of this is pretty advanced stuff, you can skim through it and
pick out enough to be of benefit to you.

Did you press the wine? I haven't used a wine press in 5 years.

On Oct 12, 10:35*am, michael > wrote:
> On 9 Oct, 23:13, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > michael wrote:
> > > I have just tried some of my 2007 red(Regent,a German hybrid that
> > > ripens well in England),and although quite good and fruity and well
> > > balanced with respect to acid,seems a little harsh in terms of
> > > tannin.I usually ferment on the skins for 4-5 days when making
> > > reds,and wonder if this is too long for future batches.How can one
> > > tell what is the correct time for fermentation on the skins?Presumably
> > > there should be enough alcohol present in the early stages to dissolve
> > > the red pigment.It is sometimes quite difficult to tell when the
> > > fermentation has started.
> > > Michael
> > > P.S.I assume that the tannin will precipitate out eventually if I
> > > leave it some while longer in a demijohn.
>
> > It is a balancing act. What is the pH and TA. If the acids are high, then
> > the tannins really exacerbate the harshness. *If the acids are on the low
> > to moderate side then you can have more tannins without excessive
> > harshness. *I am learning this the hard way myself.
>
> I do not want to care too much about malolactic fermentation for
> winemaking,as I have tried following the methodology for my
> cidermaking and it has not improved anything.
> I use 30ppm sulfite on pressing and then another 30ppm on final
> racking off into demijohns.The wine does not appear very sharp at
> all,and generally it has a very nice fruity aroma and taste-juste a
> little astringency as an aftertaste which I put down to
> tannins.Incidentally I was very careful to remove all of the stalks
> before leaving the wine to ferment on the skins for 4-5 days,as I
> understand that this can cause an excess of tannin.
> I use pH strips regularly with my cider and white wine making,but find
> them difficult to use with red wine,due to the red colouring of the
> pressed liquid even before fermentation starts.I have not yet got into
> Titratable Acid measurements,since I do not have the kit yet.The vine
> varieties that I have are all early ripening,and I pick the fruit when
> it is ripe_I do not think that I have a serious acidity problem.I do
> get white tartaric acid(?) crystals deposit out from my white wines
> quite often,but I think this is normal.
> I have read that a tiny amount of gelatin can be used to remave excess
> tannins.Is this a good idea?
> Cheers
> Michael