I may have several dozen extra Barbera vines available in Arizona. One
of the parties involved in a large order is having second thoughts.
That would leave the rest of us with far more than we need. Anyone
here interested? You could pick them up in Tucson or Phoenix.

By the way, Barbera should be an excellent hot climate grape. It's
said to retain a good amount of acidity despite extreme heat.

Just to keep this on topic, has anyone here made Barbera from fresh
grapes? What was your experience with this variety?

Greg G.

On Dec 26, 9:53*am, wrote:
> I may have several dozen extra Barbera vines available in Arizona. One
> of the parties involved in a large order is having second thoughts.
> That would leave the rest of us with far more than we need. Anyone
> here interested? You could pick them up in Tucson or Phoenix.
>
> By the way, Barbera should be an excellent hot climate grape. It's
> said to retain a good amount of acidity despite extreme heat.
>
> Just to keep this on topic, has anyone here made Barbera from fresh
> grapes? What was your experience with this variety?
>
> Greg G.

I have made Barbera from grapes and it has turned out to be an
excellent wine. I aged it in the barrel for about a year. A year in
the bottle improved the balance and flavor quite a bit. Let us know
how you make out with growing grapes in Arizona. The heat seems to be
too much for me and I would be concerned about irrigating the vines
since I would think that you would want to have the roots go deep into
the soil to pick up the minerals in the soil and so on. However, I
really don't know much about growing grapes, it is just the concern
based upon my ignorance of the topic. Best of luck.
Orlando

We've done 3 batches of barbera from Lodi grapes freighted into Boston.
First batch (and it was our first ever batch) we did "old timers" style: we
did nothing to the fruit except crush, press, & later bottle - no chemistry
at all! The wine was fabooo! tons of compliments, wish I kept some!
Batch 2, the next year, was a disaster - a $400 lesson in the value of MLF &
what not to do. Geranium City! Batch 3 was done 2 years ago & we
apparently had another Malo problem that wasn't apparent until after we
bottled.. There's a hint of geraniums in the nose and some petillance on the
tongue but after it breathes for an hour, its fine. We know it's probably
our methodology to blame, but we're gunshy about barbera grapes now. No
probs with other varietals (zin, CS, merlot,chard) so we're a wee tad
befuddled by barbera. YMMV, HTH, regards, bob



> wrote in message
...
>I may have several dozen extra Barbera vines available in Arizona. One
> of the parties involved in a large order is having second thoughts.
> That would leave the rest of us with far more than we need. Anyone
> here interested? You could pick them up in Tucson or Phoenix.
>
> By the way, Barbera should be an excellent hot climate grape. It's
> said to retain a good amount of acidity despite extreme heat.
>
> Just to keep this on topic, has anyone here made Barbera from fresh
> grapes? What was your experience with this variety?
>
> Greg G.
>
>
>

On Dec 30, 12:55*pm, "bobdrob" > wrote:
> ...
> Batch 2, the next year, was a disaster - a $400 lesson in the value of MLF &
> what not to do. Geranium City! *...

I'm a bit puzzled. I thought the Geranium aroma only occurred if you
did MLF after treating with sorbate. Surely you aren't adding sorbate
to a dry wine. Is there another cause for this off-odor?

Greg G.

at that time we didn't even know what MLF was! Sorbate wasn't even in our
vocabulary. To this day, I/we have never purchased nor knowingly used
sorbate. We made this batch the same old-timer way as the 1st batch: no
yeast, no acids, no sulfites, period. Somehow, it went horribly wrong. Since
that time, 1998, we've embraced more modern practices. I have no idea what
caused this reaction, though I'm sure there's a sound reason. Anyone else
care to speculate?...



> wrote in message
...
On Dec 30, 12:55 pm, "bobdrob" > wrote:
> ...
> Batch 2, the next year, was a disaster - a $400 lesson in the value of MLF
> &
> what not to do. Geranium City! ...

I'm a bit puzzled. I thought the Geranium aroma only occurred if you
did MLF after treating with sorbate. Surely you aren't adding sorbate
to a dry wine. Is there another cause for this off-odor?

Greg G

bobdrob wrote:

> at that time we didn't even know what MLF was! Sorbate wasn't even in our
> vocabulary. To this day, I/we have never purchased nor knowingly used
> sorbate.

> We made this batch the same old-timer way as the 1st batch: no
> yeast, no acids, no sulfites, period. Somehow, it went horribly wrong.

When you use "no yeast, no acids, no sulfites" you are rolling the dice;
with the exception being, that in dice there are only so many combinations
possible.

In the "old-timer" method of fermentation, the combinations and permutations
are EXTREMELY high and you may never know what happened.

Louis Pasteur won fame and recognition from his studies on why some wines
spoiled and did not taste good. It is amazing that in this time and day,
there are still those who refuse to learn from his work.


> Since
> that time, 1998, we've embraced more modern practices. I have no idea
> what
> caused this reaction, though I'm sure there's a sound reason. Anyone else
> care to speculate?...
>
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Dec 30, 12:55 pm, "bobdrob" > wrote:
>> ...
>> Batch 2, the next year, was a disaster - a $400 lesson in the value of
>> MLF &
>> what not to do. Geranium City! ...
>
> I'm a bit puzzled. I thought the Geranium aroma only occurred if you
> did MLF after treating with sorbate. Surely you aren't adding sorbate
> to a dry wine. Is there another cause for this off-odor?
>
> Greg G

> I'm a bit puzzled. I thought the Geranium aroma only occurred if you
> did MLF after treating with sorbate. Surely you aren't adding sorbate
> to a dry wine. Is there another cause for this off-odor?

Not that I know of, never heard of this other than with sorbate. Wine
conditioner contains it...

Joe

On Dec 31 2008, 7:07*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> bobdrob wrote:
> > at that time we didn't even know what MLF was! Sorbate wasn't even in our
> > vocabulary. * To this day, I/we have never purchased nor knowingly used
> > sorbate.
> > We made this batch the same old-timer way as the 1st batch: no
> > yeast, no acids, no sulfites, period. Somehow, it went horribly wrong.
>
> When you use "no yeast, no acids, no sulfites" you are rolling the dice;
> with the exception being, that in dice there are only so many combinations
> possible. *
>
> In the "old-timer" method of fermentation, the combinations and permutations
> are EXTREMELY high and you may never know what happened. *
>
> Louis Pasteur won fame and recognition from his studies on why some wines
> spoiled and did not taste good. *It is amazing that in this time and day,
> there are still those who refuse to learn from his work.
>
>
>
> > Since
> > that time, 1998, we've embraced more modern practices. *I have no idea
> > what
> > caused this reaction, though I'm sure there's a sound reason. *Anyone else
> > care to speculate?...
>
> > > wrote in message
> ....
> > On Dec 30, 12:55 pm, "bobdrob" > wrote:
> >> ...
> >> Batch 2, the next year, was a disaster - a $400 lesson in the value of
> >> MLF &
> >> what not to do. Geranium City! ...
>
> > I'm a bit puzzled. I thought the Geranium aroma only occurred if you
> > did MLF after treating with sorbate. Surely you aren't adding sorbate
> > to a dry wine. Is there another cause for this off-odor?
>
> > Greg G- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I can understand the desire to make wine the 'old timers' way. In fact
I understand that many of them never used chemicals and produced fine
wines year after year. Others produced lousy wines and some good ones.
It was a bit of a crap shoot it seems. Paul is correct that Pasteur
did some great work and helped with the consistency of wines; we
should learn from that. However, what do we do with the fact that wine
with chemicals gives some people a headache or causes sneezing? These
same people then find wines without chemicals and have no headaches or
sneezing fits. I will admit that this is a small sample and hardly a
controlled study, but nevertheless, an observation that seems to be
pretty consistent. How does the organic wine movement address this
issue?
Orlando

wrote:

> On Dec 31 2008, 7:07Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> bobdrob wrote:
>> > at that time we didn't even know what MLF was! Sorbate wasn't even in
>> > our vocabulary. Â* To this day, I/we have never purchased nor knowingly
>> > used sorbate.
>> > We made this batch the same old-timer way as the 1st batch: no
>> > yeast, no acids, no sulfites, period. Somehow, it went horribly wrong.
>>
>> When you use "no yeast, no acids, no sulfites" you are rolling the dice;
>> with the exception being, that in dice there are only so many
>> combinations possible.
>>
>> In the "old-timer" method of fermentation, the combinations and
>> permutations are EXTREMELY high and you may never know what happened.
>>
>> Louis Pasteur won fame and recognition from his studies on why some wines
>> spoiled and did not taste good. Â*It is amazing that in this time and day,
>> there are still those who refuse to learn from his work.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Since
>> > that time, 1998, we've embraced more modern practices. Â*I have no idea
>> > what
>> > caused this reaction, though I'm sure there's a sound reason. Â*Anyone
>> > else care to speculate?...
>>
>> > > wrote in message
>>
...
>> > On Dec 30, 12:55 pm, "bobdrob" > wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >> Batch 2, the next year, was a disaster - a $400 lesson in the value of
>> >> MLF &
>> >> what not to do. Geranium City! ...
>>
>> > I'm a bit puzzled. I thought the Geranium aroma only occurred if you
>> > did MLF after treating with sorbate. Surely you aren't adding sorbate
>> > to a dry wine. Is there another cause for this off-odor?
>>
>> > Greg G- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I can understand the desire to make wine the 'old timers' way. In fact
> I understand that many of them never used chemicals and produced fine
> wines year after year. Others produced lousy wines and some good ones.
> It was a bit of a crap shoot it seems. Paul is correct that Pasteur
> did some great work and helped with the consistency of wines; we
> should learn from that. However, what do we do with the fact that wine
> with chemicals gives some people a headache or causes sneezing? These
> same people then find wines without chemicals and have no headaches or
> sneezing fits. I will admit that this is a small sample and hardly a
> controlled study, but nevertheless, an observation that seems to be
> pretty consistent. How does the organic wine movement address this
> issue?
> Orlando

Those who get headaches from wine may be their sensitivity to compounds in
wine other than sulphites.

Below is a rather long discussion on some of the compounds in wine that may
cause headaches and other health issues. This is a copy and paste from a
post I made in the past.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++
I always look for articles indicating positive
health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there
are many. I recently came across an article in
"Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy
with the heading of "Human health concerns
associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98).

The partial information I summarize below is NOT
an attempt to start religious wars over technique
or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that
we as wine makers/growers should know.

Personally, I believe there are "probably" more
health related issues in a can of soda than some
of the material discussed below but perhaps we
can make better wine if we are aware of some of
these facts.

Summary and quotes:

"From a winemaking perspective, there are two
types of compounds produced by wine microbes that
have health implications for the consumer:
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic
amines have been shown to cause negative
physiological effects in allergic humans (such as
headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl
carbamate is considered to be a probably
carcinogen to humans.**The*probable*carcinogenic
properties of ethyl carbamate are based on
studies with experimental animals, there is not
direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans."

"The concentration and type of biogenic amines
vary greatly in wines; however, generally red
wines contain significantly more than white
wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a*direct
correlation between elevated biogenic amines in
wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic
acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and
higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic
fermentation."

Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen,
it is becoming the focus of international
regulation, and so its formation must be managed
properly both in the vineyard and during the
winemaking process."

"Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate
precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea
produced from wine yeast is thought to be the
major precursor."

Factors that affect formation

"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host
of factors can influence the formation of
biogenic amines including:

1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on
grapes;

2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape
juice;

3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur*lie
ageing) or lees following malolactic
fermentation;

4)**extended*grape*maceration;

5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are
decarboxylase-positive:

7)**wine*pH;

8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2)
following malolactic fermentation and during
ageing;

9)**winery*sanitation*practices;

10)**yeast*strain;*and*

11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with
bentonite may remove biogenic amines).

Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that
malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for
biogenic amine formation during the winemaking
process.

Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the
following factors:

1)**argine*content*of*grapes;

2)**concentration*of*ethanol;

3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both
alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;

4)**yeast*straiin;

5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);

7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and
shipment;

8)**duration*of*wine*ageing;

9)**wine*pH;*and

10)**wineery*sanitation*practices."

"Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic
amines and ethyl carbamate

Biogenic Amines

if possible periodically monitor microbial
populations on grapes to determine risk for
biogenic amine producers.

if possible, assess concentration of primary
precursor amino acids in grapes and must.

avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity.

Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or
malolactic lees.

Try to minimize extended grape maceration.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or
have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry.

Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and
Pediococcus.

When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to
remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.

Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintan good sanitation practices during wine
production.

Ethyl Carbamate

Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice.

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of
vineyards.

Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and
soil.

Test nitrogen status of juice.

Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do
not add urea.

Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that are known to produce low levels of urea
(Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice
has a high arginine content.

Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing),
which can liberate amino acids and proteins.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not
have ability to produce high levels of
citrulline.

Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and
shipment of wine.

If wines are going to be aged for an extendd
period of time, it is advisable to periodically
monitor ethyl carbamate levels.

Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they
allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and
Pedioccus.

Immediately following malolactic fermentation and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintain good sanitation practices during wine
production."

I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the
resources to monitor all of the above but we can
control a good amount of them.

I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic
to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There*are*23
references cited at the end of the article.**I
did not quote the article in the entirety but
tried to summarize the main points.

Paul