Had a H2S problem in my Pinot. Followed Margalit's instructions per his
book and decided that 0.3ppm did the trick. However, when I should have
added 6ml of CuSO4 to 19 liters, I added 60ml of the 4.1g/L stock
solution I diluted for the tests. Bumming. So, question is, how much
did I end up adding and what is a best guess on how much Cu is left in
the carboy. AND, can the wine be saved?

I am thinking, I added 10x too much. So I must have added 3.0ppm. If
0.3ppm was required to eliminate the smell, then I should have 2.7ppm
left in 19L. Way too much. What can I do? Stabivin? Cufex?

Thanks all,
Joe

Copper sulfate is a poison so if you have any doubts how much you've
really added, the safest course is to dump the wine and count this
batch as part of the learning process.

Pp

On Jan 8, 9:08 am, JG > wrote:
> Had a H2S problem in my Pinot. Followed Margalit's instructions per his
> book and decided that 0.3ppm did the trick. However, when I should have
> added 6ml of CuSO4 to 19 liters, I added 60ml of the 4.1g/L stock
> solution I diluted for the tests. Bumming. So, question is, how much
> did I end up adding and what is a best guess on how much Cu is left in
> the carboy. AND, can the wine be saved?
>
> I am thinking, I added 10x too much. So I must have added 3.0ppm. If
> 0.3ppm was required to eliminate the smell, then I should have 2.7ppm
> left in 19L. Way too much. What can I do? Stabivin? Cufex?
>
> Thanks all,
> Joe

I second pp's comment. The only practical way I know to recover from
this is to dilute with 9X the amount of wine, and that doesn't seem too
practical here lol.

Gene

pp wrote:

> Copper sulfate is a poison so if you have any doubts how much you've
> really added, the safest course is to dump the wine and count this
> batch as part of the learning process.
>
> Pp
>
> On Jan 8, 9:08 am, JG > wrote:
>
>>Had a H2S problem in my Pinot. Followed Margalit's instructions per his
>>book and decided that 0.3ppm did the trick. However, when I should have
>>added 6ml of CuSO4 to 19 liters, I added 60ml of the 4.1g/L stock
>>solution I diluted for the tests. Bumming. So, question is, how much
>>did I end up adding and what is a best guess on how much Cu is left in
>>the carboy. AND, can the wine be saved?
>>
>>I am thinking, I added 10x too much. So I must have added 3.0ppm. If
>>0.3ppm was required to eliminate the smell, then I should have 2.7ppm
>>left in 19L. Way too much. What can I do? Stabivin? Cufex?
>>
>>Thanks all,
>>Joe
>
>

"JG" > wrote in message
et...
> Had a H2S problem in my Pinot. Followed Margalit's instructions per his
> book and decided that 0.3ppm did the trick. However, when I should have
> added 6ml of CuSO4 to 19 liters, I added 60ml of the 4.1g/L stock
> solution I diluted for the tests. Bumming. So, question is, how much
> did I end up adding and what is a best guess on how much Cu is left in
> the carboy. AND, can the wine be saved?
>
> I am thinking, I added 10x too much. So I must have added 3.0ppm. If
> 0.3ppm was required to eliminate the smell, then I should have 2.7ppm
> left in 19L. Way too much. What can I do? Stabivin? Cufex?
>
> Thanks all,
> Joe

Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your wine
contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more than 3
or 4 bottles per day.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA
www.geocities.com/lumeisenman

Lum Eisenman wrote:
> "JG" > wrote in message
> et...
>> Had a H2S problem in my Pinot. Followed Margalit's instructions per his
>> book and decided that 0.3ppm did the trick. However, when I should have
>> added 6ml of CuSO4 to 19 liters, I added 60ml of the 4.1g/L stock
>> solution I diluted for the tests. Bumming. So, question is, how much
>> did I end up adding and what is a best guess on how much Cu is left in
>> the carboy. AND, can the wine be saved?
>>
>> I am thinking, I added 10x too much. So I must have added 3.0ppm. If
>> 0.3ppm was required to eliminate the smell, then I should have 2.7ppm
>> left in 19L. Way too much. What can I do? Stabivin? Cufex?
>>
>> Thanks all,
>> Joe
>
> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your wine
> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more than 3
> or 4 bottles per day.
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>
>
>
All,
Thanks for the response. This group is always so helpful.

Lum - Does my math seem to make sense?
4.1 mg/ml CuSO4 * 60 ml (vol added) = 246 mg total added to wine.
246 mg / 19L = 12.94 mg/L CuSO4

Am I forgetting something?

Thanks!

Joe

JG wrote:
> Lum Eisenman wrote:
>> "JG" > wrote in message
>> et...
>>> Had a H2S problem in my Pinot. Followed Margalit's instructions per his
>>> book and decided that 0.3ppm did the trick. However, when I should have
>>> added 6ml of CuSO4 to 19 liters, I added 60ml of the 4.1g/L stock
>>> solution I diluted for the tests. Bumming. So, question is, how much
>>> did I end up adding and what is a best guess on how much Cu is left in
>>> the carboy. AND, can the wine be saved?
>>>
>>> I am thinking, I added 10x too much. So I must have added 3.0ppm. If
>>> 0.3ppm was required to eliminate the smell, then I should have 2.7ppm
>>> left in 19L. Way too much. What can I do? Stabivin? Cufex?
>>>
>>> Thanks all,
>>> Joe
>>
>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If
>> your wine
>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
>> than 3
>> or 4 bottles per day.
>> Lum
>> Del Mar, California, USA
>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>>
>>
>>
> All,
> Thanks for the response. This group is always so helpful.
>
> Lum - Does my math seem to make sense?
> 4.1 mg/ml CuSO4 * 60 ml (vol added) = 246 mg total added to wine.
> 246 mg / 19L = 12.94 mg/L CuSO4
>
> Am I forgetting something?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joe
I am forgetting that Cu accounts for only 25% of the total weight of the
CuSO4? That would then be:
12.94 mg/L * 0.25 = 3.235 mg/L
or about 2.42 mg / bottle of wine.

Joe

Hmmmm, VitaWine....

Hey, Lucy!!! Lookit This!




"Lum Eisenman" > wrote in message
et...

>
> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your
> wine
> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more than 3
> or 4 bottles per day.
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>
>
>

haha. I was following this thread quietly until I read your comment and
burst outloud when I read about VitaWine. What a great I LOVE LUCY show
it was. hahaha.

thanks for the laugh. DAve

Casey Wilson wrote:
> Hmmmm, VitaWine....
>
> Hey, Lucy!!! Lookit This!
>
>
>
>
> "Lum Eisenman" > wrote in message
> et...
>
>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your
>> wine
>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more than 3
>> or 4 bottles per day.
>> Lum
>> Del Mar, California, USA
>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>>
>>
>>
>
>

"JG" > wrote in message
news
> JG wrote:
> > Lum Eisenman wrote:
> >> "JG" > wrote in message
> >> et...
> >>> Had a H2S problem in my Pinot. Followed Margalit's instructions per
his
> >>> book and decided that 0.3ppm did the trick. However, when I should
have
> >>> added 6ml of CuSO4 to 19 liters, I added 60ml of the 4.1g/L stock
> >>> solution I diluted for the tests. Bumming. So, question is, how much
> >>> did I end up adding and what is a best guess on how much Cu is left in
> >>> the carboy. AND, can the wine be saved?
> >>>
> >>> I am thinking, I added 10x too much. So I must have added 3.0ppm. If
> >>> 0.3ppm was required to eliminate the smell, then I should have 2.7ppm
> >>> left in 19L. Way too much. What can I do? Stabivin? Cufex?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks all,
> >>> Joe
> >>
> >> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> >> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> >> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If
> >> your wine
> >> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
> >> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of
copper.
> >> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
> >> than 3
> >> or 4 bottles per day.
> >> Lum
> >> Del Mar, California, USA
> >> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > All,
> > Thanks for the response. This group is always so helpful.
> >
> > Lum - Does my math seem to make sense?
> > 4.1 mg/ml CuSO4 * 60 ml (vol added) = 246 mg total added to wine.
> > 246 mg / 19L = 12.94 mg/L CuSO4
> >
> > Am I forgetting something?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Joe
> I am forgetting that Cu accounts for only 25% of the total weight of the
> CuSO4? That would then be:
> 12.94 mg/L * 0.25 = 3.235 mg/L
> or about 2.42 mg / bottle of wine.
>
> Joe

Your arithmetic looks OK to me Joe. But, chemistry was never my strong
suit.

Lum
Del Mar, California, USA
www.geocities.com/lumeisenman

Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it was
in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.

Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
CuSO4 in it.

At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the wine
in the hope of dropping some copper ions?


>
> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your wine
> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more than 3
> or 4 bottles per day.
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman

"Ric" > wrote in message
...
> Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
> me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
> pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it was
> in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
>
> Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
> CuSO4 in it.
>
> At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the wine
> in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
>
>
> >
> > Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> > The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> > milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your
wine
> > contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
> > would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
> > I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more than
3
> > or 4 bottles per day.
> > Lum
> > Del Mar, California, USA
> > www.geocities.com/lumeisenman

I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount of
copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper content
of wine considerably.
Lum

Lum Eisenman wrote:
> "Ric" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
>>me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
>>pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it was
>>in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
>>
>>Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
>>CuSO4 in it.
>>
>>At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the wine
>>in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
>>
>>
>>
>>>Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
>>>The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
>>>milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your
>
> wine
>
>>>contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
>>>would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
>>>I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more than
>
> 3
>
>>>or 4 bottles per day.
>>>Lum
>>>Del Mar, California, USA
>>>www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>
>
> I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
> I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
> I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount of
> copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper content
> of wine considerably.
> Lum
>
>
Here's the numbers from 24 CFR 184:

Copper sulfate: To remove hydrogen sulfide and/or mercaptans from
wine. "The quantity of copper sulfate added (calculated as copper)
shall not exceed 0.5 part copper per million parts of wine (0.5 mg/L)
with the residual level of copper not to be in excess of 0.5 part per
million (0.5 mg/L). 21 CFR 184.1261 (GRAS)."

Yes, in wine it is supposed to be less that 0.5 ppm.

The 3mg per liter amount is not typically considered critically
dangerous, as the human body has a good mechanism for excreting excess
copper. But it's not a good idea to challenge your body too much with
copper, your body has its limits of coping, and is slow at excreting
excess copper. The most immediate issue with too much copper in your
diet is that it competes with zinc absorption.

Here's a good summary reference on copper in humans:

http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/detail...ent=4&cat= 49

Copper is an essential metal and the daily requirement has been
estimated at 30 micrograms/kg of body weight for an adult. Copper acts
as a catalyst in the formation of haemoglobin, the oxygen-carrying blood
component. Copper is stored in the liver and excreted in bile salts.

Minerals including copper must be bound to a protein to be usable.
Biounavailable means the mineral is present, but in a form that is
unsuitable for the body. The highest concentrations in body tissues are
found in the liver and certain areas of the central nervous system,
particularly the brain. The normal concentration of copper in blood
plasma is 1 mg/litter. The gastrointestinal absorption of soluble copper
is regulated by the need and is usually around 50%; uptake may also take
place after inhalation. Elimination of copper is slow and takes place
via bile. The chronic accumulation of copper in the body is rare and
occurs in Wilson's disease caused by an inborn error of the copper
metabolism characterised by a diminished capacity to eliminate copper
via bile. This leads to secondary lesions in the liver and the brain.

Copper (Cu) is a heavy metal whose unbound ions are toxic. Almost all of
the copper in the body is present as a component of copper proteins,
thereby reducing the in vivo concentration of unbound copper ions almost
to zero. Genetic mechanisms control the processes by which copper is
incorporated into apoproteins and those by which toxic accumulations of
copper are avoided. Almost every daily diet contains 2 to 3 mg of
copper, only about half of which is absorbed. Any copper absorbed in
excess of metabolic requirements is excreted through the bile, probably
via hepatic lysosomes. On average, an adult has about 150 mg of copper
in the body, of which about 10 to 20 mg is in the liver. The remainder
is distributed ubiquitously.

Acute copper poisoning is a rare event, largely restricted to the
accidental drinking of solutions of copper nitrate or copper sulphate,
which should be kept out of easy access in the home. Copper supplements
should be kept away from children. Chronic copper poisoning is also very
rare and the few reports refer to patients with liver disease. The
capacity for healthy human livers to excrete copper is considerable and
it is primarily for this reason that no cases of chronic copper
poisoning have been reported.

A high copper intake adversely effects zinc absorption, and thus dosage
recommendations for copper are often based on zinc intake. The optimal
ratio of zinc to copper is 10:1. Since copper and zinc compete with each
other for absorption in the gut, copper toxicity has been the subject of
greater concern in recent years. This is primarily due to reduced zinc
in the diet and the switch from galvanised to copper water pipes. Acidic
water such as rain water, left standing in copper plumbing pipes, can be
a source of toxicity when consumed. In prolonged contact with copper
cooking utensils, an acidic food or beverage can dissolve milligram
quantities of copper, sufficient to cause acute toxicity symptoms such
as self-limited nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea. High copper levels,
especially when associated with low zinc levels, have been linked to a
variety of symptoms and conditions.

Copper is a metal used as an alloy in brass and bronze, as a component
in some solders, in pigments such as emerald green, in ceramic glazes,
and as a salt in the lithographic process.

Copper salts are irritants to the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes.
Ingestion of copper salts may cause vomiting, diarrhoea, hemorragic
gastritis, and excessive salivation. Copper sulphate has clinically
(medicine) been used as an emetic. It is also used in the whitewashing
and leather industry. Toxicity is primarily due to accidental and
suicidal attempts, and results in intravascular hemolysis,
methemogloninemia, renal failure and often death. Vineyard sprayers
using a solution containing aqueous copper sulphate developed
granulomatous and fibrotic lung lesions. Inhalation of copper dust and
fume results in irritation of the respiratory tract, ulceration and
perforation of nasal septum, metallic or sweet taste, and in some
instances, discoloration of the skin and hair. The inhalation of metal
fumes produced at high temperature, such as welding, may cause "metal
fume fever", an influenza-like (benign) illness. High copper content in
drinking water and food may contribute to the development of severe
liver damage in infants. Copper compounds used by potters are not
considered hazardous as well as for pottery users. Copper in glazes
fluxed by lead compounds will leach more lead.

For further information, please refer to the URLs below:

http://environment.copper.org/uk/uk96.html

http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C514041.html

http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual/se...hapter4/4j.htm

Lum Eisenman wrote:
> "Ric" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
>> me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
>> pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it was
>> in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
>>
>> Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
>> CuSO4 in it.
>>
>> At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the wine
>> in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
>>
>>
>>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
>>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
>>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your
> wine
>>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
>>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of copper.
>>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more than
> 3
>>> or 4 bottles per day.
>>> Lum
>>> Del Mar, California, USA
>>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>
> I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
> I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
> I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount of
> copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper content
> of wine considerably.
> Lum
>
>
Lum,
Can you outline the procedure for removing copper with dry yeast?

Thanks,
Joe

"gene" > wrote in message
et...
> Lum Eisenman wrote:
> > "Ric" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
> >>me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
> >>pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it was
> >>in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
> >>
> >>Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
> >>CuSO4 in it.
> >>
> >>At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the wine
> >>in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> >>>The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> >>>milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If your
> >
> > wine
> >
> >>>contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of wine
> >>>would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of
copper.
> >>>I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
than
> >
> > 3
> >
> >>>or 4 bottles per day.
> >>>Lum
> >>>Del Mar, California, USA
> >>>www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
> >
> >
> > I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
> > I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
> > I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount of
> > copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper
content
> > of wine considerably.
> > Lum
> >
> >
> Here's the numbers from 24 CFR 184:
>
> Copper sulfate: To remove hydrogen sulfide and/or mercaptans from
> wine. "The quantity of copper sulfate added (calculated as copper)
> shall not exceed 0.5 part copper per million parts of wine (0.5 mg/L)
> with the residual level of copper not to be in excess of 0.5 part per
> million (0.5 mg/L). 21 CFR 184.1261 (GRAS)."
>
> Yes, in wine it is supposed to be less that 0.5 ppm.
>
> The 3mg per liter amount is not typically considered critically
> dangerous, as the human body has a good mechanism for excreting excess
> copper. But it's not a good idea to challenge your body too much with
> copper, your body has its limits of coping, and is slow at excreting
> excess copper. The most immediate issue with too much copper in your
> diet is that it competes with zinc absorption.
>
> Here's a good summary reference on copper in humans:
>
>
http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/detail...ent=4&cat= 49
>
> Copper is an essential metal and the daily requirement has been
> estimated at 30 micrograms/kg of body weight for an adult. Copper acts
> as a catalyst in the formation of haemoglobin, the oxygen-carrying blood
> component. Copper is stored in the liver and excreted in bile salts.

Your numbers had me worried so I checked my vitamin bottle again. It still
says 3 mg of copper is 150% of the MDR, so I looked at your numbers more
carefully.

From above......for a 150 pound person, 30 micrograms/ kg of body weight is
roughly equal to
150 # / 2.2 #/kg = 68 kilograms
68 kg X 0.000030 gr/ kg = .002 grams or (2 mg of copper as minimum daily
requirement).
..003 /.002 = 150% of the minimum daily requirement.

So, the label on my vitamin bottle seems to be reasonable and I wonder how
TTB arrived at 0.5 PPM as the limit for commercial wines.

In any event, thank you for a great post Gene.

Lum

snip........

"JG" > wrote in message
. net...
> Lum Eisenman wrote:
> > "Ric" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
> >> me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
> >> pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it
was
> >> in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
> >>
> >> Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
> >> CuSO4 in it.
> >>
> >> At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the
wine
> >> in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> >>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> >>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If
your
> > wine
> >>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of
wine
> >>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of
copper.
> >>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
than
> > 3
> >>> or 4 bottles per day.
> >>> Lum
> >>> Del Mar, California, USA
> >>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
> >
> > I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
> > I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
> > I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount of
> > copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper
content
> > of wine considerably.
> > Lum
> >
> >
> Lum,
> Can you outline the procedure for removing copper with dry yeast?
>
> Thanks,
> Joe

The procedure is very simple Joe.

Add dry yeast to the wine, stir, rack the wine off the yeast lees after a
week or two.

Apparently, the metal ions adhere to the yeast sell membrane and are removed
when the wine is racked off the yeast lees. Old (dead) yeast seems to be as
good as fresh yeast, so I always save any old yeast just in case I need it
to remove metal ion. I have used as much as 50 grams of dry yeast per
5-gallons of wine.

Lum
Del Mar, California, USA
www.geocities.com/lumeisenman

Lum Eisenman wrote:
> "JG" > wrote in message
> . net...
>> Lum Eisenman wrote:
>>> "Ric" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
>>>> me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
>>>> pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it
> was
>>>> in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
>>>> CuSO4 in it.
>>>>
>>>> At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the
> wine
>>>> in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
>>>>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
>>>>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If
> your
>>> wine
>>>>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of
> wine
>>>>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of
> copper.
>>>>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
> than
>>> 3
>>>>> or 4 bottles per day.
>>>>> Lum
>>>>> Del Mar, California, USA
>>>>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>>> I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
>>> I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
>>> I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount of
>>> copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper
> content
>>> of wine considerably.
>>> Lum
>>>
>>>
>> Lum,
>> Can you outline the procedure for removing copper with dry yeast?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joe
>
> The procedure is very simple Joe.
>
> Add dry yeast to the wine, stir, rack the wine off the yeast lees after a
> week or two.
>
> Apparently, the metal ions adhere to the yeast sell membrane and are removed
> when the wine is racked off the yeast lees. Old (dead) yeast seems to be as
> good as fresh yeast, so I always save any old yeast just in case I need it
> to remove metal ion. I have used as much as 50 grams of dry yeast per
> 5-gallons of wine.
>
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>
>
Thanks Lum! I will try it on a small carboy and see what happens.
Interestingly, MLF was going along swimmingly until I added the excess
copper. It then stopped and I cannot seem to get it going again and I
did a chromatography test and it is definitely not finished.

Thanks!
Joe

JG wrote:
> Had a H2S problem in my Pinot. Followed Margalit's instructions per his
> book and decided that 0.3ppm did the trick. However, when I should have
> added 6ml of CuSO4 to 19 liters, I added 60ml of the 4.1g/L stock
> solution I diluted for the tests. Bumming. So, question is, how much
> did I end up adding and what is a best guess on how much Cu is left in
> the carboy. AND, can the wine be saved?
>
> I am thinking, I added 10x too much. So I must have added 3.0ppm. If
> 0.3ppm was required to eliminate the smell, then I should have 2.7ppm
> left in 19L. Way too much. What can I do? Stabivin? Cufex?
>
> Thanks all,
> Joe
The is a method of reducing copper ions in wine. It is called pottassium
ferrocyanide fining. I do not recommend it be used.

Cold stabilisation may help reduce the concentration.

As other people had suggested add yeast hulls.

Also I think that it is best to work in ppm CuSO4.5H20 (copper sulfate
pentahydrate) when doing these trials and additions. It is the copper
ion which removes the sulphide character. However you cannot buy a
bottle of copper ions to add, you have to buy the salt.

The main reason the TTB has a 0.5 ppm limit I believe is because if
there is more than 0.5ppm copper ions present in solution in the bottle,
then you can have probems with copper casse, the copper drops out of
solution.

James.

Lum:

Any issues with clarity after the dry yeast is added, assuming the wine
was already clear?

Thx,

Pp

On Jan 9, 10:58 am, "Lum Eisenman" > wrote:
> "JG" > wrote in rodigy.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Lum Eisenman wrote:
> > > "Ric" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
> > >> me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
> > >> pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it
> was
> > >> in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
>
> > >> Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
> > >> CuSO4 in it.
>
> > >> At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the
> wine
> > >> in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
>
> > >>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> > >>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> > >>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If
> your
> > > wine
> > >>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of
> wine
> > >>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of
> copper.
> > >>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
> than
> > > 3
> > >>> or 4 bottles per day.
> > >>> Lum
> > >>> Del Mar, California, USA
> > >>>www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>
> > > I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
> > > I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
> > > I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount of
> > > copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper
> content
> > > of wine considerably.
> > > Lum
>
> > Lum,
> > Can you outline the procedure for removing copper with dry yeast?
>
> > Thanks,
> > JoeThe procedure is very simple Joe.
>
> Add dry yeast to the wine, stir, rack the wine off the yeast lees after a
> week or two.
>
> Apparently, the metal ions adhere to the yeast sell membrane and are removed
> when the wine is racked off the yeast lees. Old (dead) yeast seems to be as
> good as fresh yeast, so I always save any old yeast just in case I need it
> to remove metal ion. I have used as much as 50 grams of dry yeast per
> 5-gallons of wine.
>
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USAwww.geocities.com/lumeisenman- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

> AND, can the wine be saved?
> >

I made that mistake once too, exactly the same issue too, 10x too much.
I did the yeast thing but I also blended it down too, I ended up with
15 gallons of a sort of white zinfandel.

The only commercial white zin I will even drinkg is Berringers, it's
less sweet. I made it in that style and it went fast, which was
actually a little annoying. (Most people around here like fruity
approachable wines.)

Since I give most of those style wines away I took it to a lab to
ensure it was under the limit and it was. (I'm not saying you need to
do that, just saying the solutions to your problem mentioned by Lum
work.)

Joe

Lum Eisenman wrote:
> "JG" > wrote in message
> . net...
>> Lum Eisenman wrote:
>>> "Ric" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts with
>>>> me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate sounds
>>>> pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it
> was
>>>> in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too much'
>>>> CuSO4 in it.
>>>>
>>>> At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the
> wine
>>>> in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
>>>>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
>>>>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If
> your
>>> wine
>>>>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of
> wine
>>>>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of
> copper.
>>>>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
> than
>>> 3
>>>>> or 4 bottles per day.
>>>>> Lum
>>>>> Del Mar, California, USA
>>>>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>>> I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
>>> I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
>>> I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount of
>>> copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper
> content
>>> of wine considerably.
>>> Lum
>>>
>>>
>> Lum,
>> Can you outline the procedure for removing copper with dry yeast?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joe
>
> The procedure is very simple Joe.
>
> Add dry yeast to the wine, stir, rack the wine off the yeast lees after a
> week or two.
>
> Apparently, the metal ions adhere to the yeast sell membrane and are removed
> when the wine is racked off the yeast lees. Old (dead) yeast seems to be as
> good as fresh yeast, so I always save any old yeast just in case I need it
> to remove metal ion. I have used as much as 50 grams of dry yeast per
> 5-gallons of wine.
>
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>
>
Lum,
So about 10 grams per gallon of yeast then give/take? How long should
it take to remove some of the copper? I suspect I will wait until the
yeast settles to the bottom. Will it have done the job by then? Its
$22 to test a sample for Cu conc. I am thinking about doing a
before/after to see how much was removed.

Thanks,
Joe

"JG" > wrote in message
news
> Lum Eisenman wrote:
> > "JG" > wrote in message
> > . net...
> >> Lum Eisenman wrote:
> >>> "Ric" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts
with
> >>>> me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate
sounds
> >>>> pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it
> > was
> >>>> in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
> >>>>
> >>>> Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too
much'
> >>>> CuSO4 in it.
> >>>>
> >>>> At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the
> > wine
> >>>> in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
> >>>>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
> >>>>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If
> > your
> >>> wine
> >>>>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of
> > wine
> >>>>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of
> > copper.
> >>>>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
> > than
> >>> 3
> >>>>> or 4 bottles per day.
> >>>>> Lum
> >>>>> Del Mar, California, USA
> >>>>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
> >>> I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
> >>> I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
> >>> I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount
of
> >>> copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper
> > content
> >>> of wine considerably.
> >>> Lum
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Lum,
> >> Can you outline the procedure for removing copper with dry yeast?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Joe
> >
> > The procedure is very simple Joe.
> >
> > Add dry yeast to the wine, stir, rack the wine off the yeast lees after
a
> > week or two.
> >
> > Apparently, the metal ions adhere to the yeast sell membrane and are
removed
> > when the wine is racked off the yeast lees. Old (dead) yeast seems to
be as
> > good as fresh yeast, so I always save any old yeast just in case I need
it
> > to remove metal ion. I have used as much as 50 grams of dry yeast per
> > 5-gallons of wine.
> >
> > Lum
> > Del Mar, California, USA
> > www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
> >
> >
> Lum,
> So about 10 grams per gallon of yeast then give/take? How long should
> it take to remove some of the copper? I suspect I will wait until the
> yeast settles to the bottom. Will it have done the job by then? Its
> $22 to test a sample for Cu conc. I am thinking about doing a
> before/after to see how much was removed.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe

Joe,

You have a lot of copper in your wine so the yeast may not get the copper
level down to a desirable level. But in my experience, several grams of dry
yeast per gallon of wine will remove a significant amount of copper.

I think the reaction between yeast cells and metal ions is fast. But, it
will takes a week or so for the yeast to settle so the wine can be racked
off of the yeast and adhering copper.

Good luck,
Lum

Lum Eisenman wrote:
> "JG" > wrote in message
> news
>> Lum Eisenman wrote:
>>> "JG" > wrote in message
>>> . net...
>>>> Lum Eisenman wrote:
>>>>> "Ric" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Are you real sure of the numbers, Lum? I don't have my chem texts
> with
>>>>>> me right now - will check tomorrow - but 3 ppm of copper sulfate
> sounds
>>>>>> pretty high --- anyone know the 'safe' limits of CuSO4? I thought it
>>> was
>>>>>> in the neighborhood of something less than 1 ppm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I wouldn't want to drink wine with anything like 'too
> much'
>>>>>> CuSO4 in it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the very least - JG might want to consider bentonite fining the
>>> wine
>>>>>> in the hope of dropping some copper ions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't dump that wine yet Joe.
>>>>>>> The label on my jar of vitamins says........"each tablet contains 3
>>>>>>> milligrams of copper (150% of the minimum daily requirement)." If
>>> your
>>>>> wine
>>>>>>> contains 3 milligrams of copper per liter, one 750 liter bottle of
>>> wine
>>>>>>> would contain 2.25 milligrams of copper or just about the MDR of
>>> copper.
>>>>>>> I would drink the wine. But, I would make sure I didn't drink more
>>> than
>>>>> 3
>>>>>>> or 4 bottles per day.
>>>>>>> Lum
>>>>>>> Del Mar, California, USA
>>>>>>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>>>>> I am NOT real sure of the numbers Rick.
>>>>> I am sure of the quote from the label on my vitamin bottle.
>>>>> I am also sure that Bentonite will not remove any significant amount
> of
>>>>> copper from wine. But, fining with dry yeast can reduce the copper
>>> content
>>>>> of wine considerably.
>>>>> Lum
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Lum,
>>>> Can you outline the procedure for removing copper with dry yeast?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Joe
>>> The procedure is very simple Joe.
>>>
>>> Add dry yeast to the wine, stir, rack the wine off the yeast lees after
> a
>>> week or two.
>>>
>>> Apparently, the metal ions adhere to the yeast sell membrane and are
> removed
>>> when the wine is racked off the yeast lees. Old (dead) yeast seems to
> be as
>>> good as fresh yeast, so I always save any old yeast just in case I need
> it
>>> to remove metal ion. I have used as much as 50 grams of dry yeast per
>>> 5-gallons of wine.
>>>
>>> Lum
>>> Del Mar, California, USA
>>> www.geocities.com/lumeisenman
>>>
>>>
>> Lum,
>> So about 10 grams per gallon of yeast then give/take? How long should
>> it take to remove some of the copper? I suspect I will wait until the
>> yeast settles to the bottom. Will it have done the job by then? Its
>> $22 to test a sample for Cu conc. I am thinking about doing a
>> before/after to see how much was removed.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joe
>
> Joe,
>
> You have a lot of copper in your wine so the yeast may not get the copper
> level down to a desirable level. But in my experience, several grams of dry
> yeast per gallon of wine will remove a significant amount of copper.
>
> I think the reaction between yeast cells and metal ions is fast. But, it
> will takes a week or so for the yeast to settle so the wine can be racked
> off of the yeast and adhering copper.
>
> Good luck,
> Lum
>
>
Just got the results from the lab back. 1.69 ppm (mg/L) copper. This
result is prior to adding the yeast as suggested by Lum. I will post
the final amount of copper after I rack off the yeast.

Joe