A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar. I
have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed a
gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought that must be the
"mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother that I
was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the lower
layers.

Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it out,
but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have read
on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the vinegars
were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of the
vinegar.

Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it formed
the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in the
kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if the
temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
degrees F.

Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening again?

Fred

I didn't get any replies, so I changed the title. I'd like to hear some
opinions from people that make vinegar and possibly from some biochemists.

"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:H5ttd.459589$wV.297785@attbi_s54...
> A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar.
I
> have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed a
> gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought that must be the
> "mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother that
I
> was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
> additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
> mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the lower
> layers.
>
> Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it out,
> but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have
read
> on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the vinegars
> were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of the
> vinegar.
>
> Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it formed
> the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in the
> kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if
the
> temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
> better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
> degrees F.
>
> Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
again?
>
> Fred
>
>
>
>

"Fred C. Young" > skrev i melding
news:31Qtd.226849$R05.199293@attbi_s53...
>I didn't get any replies, so I changed the title. I'd like to hear some
> opinions from people that make vinegar and possibly from some biochemists.
>
Hi
You may want to try the rec.craft.winemaking newsgroup. They might put you
in the right direction or even give you answers!
hth
Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
> You may want to try the rec.craft.winemaking newsgroup. They might put
you
> in the right direction or even give you answers!
> hth
> Anders
>
>
Thanks, Anders. I will try that. I was thinking that there would be a lot
of wine drinkers that make wine vinegar and I didn't consider it as being
off topic since a person has to have wine before vinegar is made.

Fred

--
Remove _nail to reply

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
> You may want to try the rec.craft.winemaking newsgroup. They might put
you
> in the right direction or even give you answers!
> hth
> Anders
>
>
Thanks, Anders. I will try that. I was thinking that there would be a lot
of wine drinkers that make wine vinegar and I didn't consider it as being
off topic since a person has to have wine before vinegar is made.

Fred

--
Remove _nail to reply

Maybe you left it in the jar for too long. My wife is into "vinegar making"
and she regularly tastes the stuff and once she has the impression that it
is "mature" she fills it into bottles (i.e. separating it from the "mother"
to prevent it from becoming really nasty-acidic).

Maybe it is a silly question as you seem to have some experience with it:
are you sure that you never mixed white and red wine in the same vinegar jar
and that you never used cork-tainted wines?

Regards

Yves


"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:31Qtd.226849$R05.199293@attbi_s53...
> I didn't get any replies, so I changed the title. I'd like to hear some
> opinions from people that make vinegar and possibly from some biochemists.
>
> "Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
> news:H5ttd.459589$wV.297785@attbi_s54...
> > A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making vinegar.
> I
> > have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars developed
a
> > gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought that must be the
> > "mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother
that
> I
> > was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
> > additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words, the
> > mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the
lower
> > layers.
> >
> > Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it
out,
> > but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I have
> read
> > on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the
vinegars
> > were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of
the
> > vinegar.
> >
> > Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it
formed
> > the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in
the
> > kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering if
> the
> > temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked it
> > better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
> > degrees F.
> >
> > Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
> again?
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

I seem to have the same problem with my vinegar making. When my batch of
vinegar got a pungent smell I started some other batches in parallel. They
also have the scum on top but they have the expected vinegar aroma not the
pungent aroma.
I have no idea why the one batch smells pungent and noone has been able to
explain it.
I figure I left it too long and the vinegar turned into something else or I
didn't get enough air into it and some anaerobic bacteria beat out the
mother.
I am trying to make a balsamic style vinegar. Is there any Italians from
the region that make balsamic vinegar that can comment?
Sarge

"Yves Tychon" > wrote in message
...
> Maybe you left it in the jar for too long. My wife is into "vinegar
making"
> and she regularly tastes the stuff and once she has the impression that it
> is "mature" she fills it into bottles (i.e. separating it from the
"mother"
> to prevent it from becoming really nasty-acidic).
>
> Maybe it is a silly question as you seem to have some experience with it:
> are you sure that you never mixed white and red wine in the same vinegar
jar
> and that you never used cork-tainted wines?
>
> Regards
>
> Yves
>
>
> "Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
> news:31Qtd.226849$R05.199293@attbi_s53...
> > I didn't get any replies, so I changed the title. I'd like to hear some
> > opinions from people that make vinegar and possibly from some
biochemists.
> >
> > "Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
> > news:H5ttd.459589$wV.297785@attbi_s54...
> > > A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making
vinegar.
> > I
> > > have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars
developed
> a
> > > gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought that must be
the
> > > "mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother
> that
> > I
> > > was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
> > > additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words,
the
> > > mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the
> lower
> > > layers.
> > >
> > > Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it
> out,
> > > but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I
have
> > read
> > > on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the
> vinegars
> > > were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of
> the
> > > vinegar.
> > >
> > > Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it
> formed
> > > the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in
> the
> > > kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering
if
> > the
> > > temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked
it
> > > better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
> > > degrees F.
> > >
> > > Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
> > again?
> > >
> > > Fred

"Sarge" > wrote in message
...
> I seem to have the same problem with my vinegar making. When my batch of
> vinegar got a pungent smell I started some other batches in parallel.
They
> also have the scum on top but they have the expected vinegar aroma not the
> pungent aroma.
> I have no idea why the one batch smells pungent and noone has been able to
> explain it.
> I figure I left it too long and the vinegar turned into something else or
I
> didn't get enough air into it and some anaerobic bacteria beat out the
> mother.
> I am trying to make a balsamic style vinegar. Is there any Italians from
> the region that make balsamic vinegar that can comment?
> Sarge

Hello Sarge,
My vinegar has been great until this batch. I have never seen the "mother'
before. There is always a lot of sediment in the bottom and a slight scum
on top, but no layer of the gelatinous substance. It has a beautiful, but
sharp nose. Sometimes when we have friends over for wine, we end up tasting
vinegar samples to see how they are when made from different wines. I had
some that I made with a full bodied zin. The zin was originally very good,
but tannic. I cellared some of it too long. It didn't get oxidized
tasting, the balance was just terrible. The vinegar from it had a very good
flavor.

When you start the vinegar, you have to have a fairly low alcohol content
(I'd guess about 12%) or you need to add water to lower the concentration
because the aceto bacter doesn't tolerate high levels of alcohol. The first
time I made vinegar, I used a sample from a bottle of wine that had turned
to vinegar. The wine wasn't very good, so I corked it and set it aside in
the cellar. About a month later I was dumping it out and it smelled and
tasted like vinegar. Then I started adding wine.

I'd like to learn about the balsamic vinegar, too. So far, I buy the
vinegar from Modena that is available in the grocery stores, but I'd like to
get a couple of small wood containers to use for making my own vinegar with
left-over wine.

Fred

--
Remove _nail to reply

Hello Fred
Glad to meet someone that appreciates vinegar!
My latest batch of vinegar has a thick grayish pink fuzzy (appears dry)
layer on top and smells very rough very little vinegar aroma. I guess it
went bad somehow and will pitch.
I am looking for a small barrel for vinegar. I would love to know how they
make the real balsamic. I understand it can take 12, 25, 50 years. The
white trebbiano grapes are cooked after they start fermenting to concentrate
the flavors. The vinegar ends up very dark. I don't know much more. I
can't see waiting 12-50 years but it does sound interesting.
Sarge

"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:AVIud.178729$V41.26882@attbi_s52...
>
> "Sarge" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I seem to have the same problem with my vinegar making. When my batch
of
> > vinegar got a pungent smell I started some other batches in parallel.
> They
> > also have the scum on top but they have the expected vinegar aroma not
the
> > pungent aroma.
> > I have no idea why the one batch smells pungent and noone has been able
to
> > explain it.
> > I figure I left it too long and the vinegar turned into something else
or
> I
> > didn't get enough air into it and some anaerobic bacteria beat out the
> > mother.
> > I am trying to make a balsamic style vinegar. Is there any Italians
from
> > the region that make balsamic vinegar that can comment?
> > Sarge
>
> Hello Sarge,
> My vinegar has been great until this batch. I have never seen the
"mother'
> before. There is always a lot of sediment in the bottom and a slight scum
> on top, but no layer of the gelatinous substance. It has a beautiful,
but
> sharp nose. Sometimes when we have friends over for wine, we end up
tasting
> vinegar samples to see how they are when made from different wines. I had
> some that I made with a full bodied zin. The zin was originally very
good,
> but tannic. I cellared some of it too long. It didn't get oxidized
> tasting, the balance was just terrible. The vinegar from it had a very
good
> flavor.
>
> When you start the vinegar, you have to have a fairly low alcohol content
> (I'd guess about 12%) or you need to add water to lower the concentration
> because the aceto bacter doesn't tolerate high levels of alcohol. The
first
> time I made vinegar, I used a sample from a bottle of wine that had turned
> to vinegar. The wine wasn't very good, so I corked it and set it aside in
> the cellar. About a month later I was dumping it out and it smelled and
> tasted like vinegar. Then I started adding wine.
>
> I'd like to learn about the balsamic vinegar, too. So far, I buy the
> vinegar from Modena that is available in the grocery stores, but I'd like
to
> get a couple of small wood containers to use for making my own vinegar
with
> left-over wine.
>
> Fred
>
> --
> Remove _nail to reply
>
>

Hello Fred
Glad to meet someone that appreciates vinegar!
My latest batch of vinegar has a thick grayish pink fuzzy (appears dry)
layer on top and smells very rough very little vinegar aroma. I guess it
went bad somehow and will pitch.
I am looking for a small barrel for vinegar. I would love to know how they
make the real balsamic. I understand it can take 12, 25, 50 years. The
white trebbiano grapes are cooked after they start fermenting to concentrate
the flavors. The vinegar ends up very dark. I don't know much more. I
can't see waiting 12-50 years but it does sound interesting.
Sarge

"Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
news:AVIud.178729$V41.26882@attbi_s52...
>
> "Sarge" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I seem to have the same problem with my vinegar making. When my batch
of
> > vinegar got a pungent smell I started some other batches in parallel.
> They
> > also have the scum on top but they have the expected vinegar aroma not
the
> > pungent aroma.
> > I have no idea why the one batch smells pungent and noone has been able
to
> > explain it.
> > I figure I left it too long and the vinegar turned into something else
or
> I
> > didn't get enough air into it and some anaerobic bacteria beat out the
> > mother.
> > I am trying to make a balsamic style vinegar. Is there any Italians
from
> > the region that make balsamic vinegar that can comment?
> > Sarge
>
> Hello Sarge,
> My vinegar has been great until this batch. I have never seen the
"mother'
> before. There is always a lot of sediment in the bottom and a slight scum
> on top, but no layer of the gelatinous substance. It has a beautiful,
but
> sharp nose. Sometimes when we have friends over for wine, we end up
tasting
> vinegar samples to see how they are when made from different wines. I had
> some that I made with a full bodied zin. The zin was originally very
good,
> but tannic. I cellared some of it too long. It didn't get oxidized
> tasting, the balance was just terrible. The vinegar from it had a very
good
> flavor.
>
> When you start the vinegar, you have to have a fairly low alcohol content
> (I'd guess about 12%) or you need to add water to lower the concentration
> because the aceto bacter doesn't tolerate high levels of alcohol. The
first
> time I made vinegar, I used a sample from a bottle of wine that had turned
> to vinegar. The wine wasn't very good, so I corked it and set it aside in
> the cellar. About a month later I was dumping it out and it smelled and
> tasted like vinegar. Then I started adding wine.
>
> I'd like to learn about the balsamic vinegar, too. So far, I buy the
> vinegar from Modena that is available in the grocery stores, but I'd like
to
> get a couple of small wood containers to use for making my own vinegar
with
> left-over wine.
>
> Fred
>
> --
> Remove _nail to reply
>
>

"Sarge" > wrote in message
...
> I seem to have the same problem with my vinegar making. When my batch of
> vinegar got a pungent smell I started some other batches in parallel.
They
> also have the scum on top but they have the expected vinegar aroma not the
> pungent aroma.
> I have no idea why the one batch smells pungent and noone has been able to
> explain it.
> I figure I left it too long and the vinegar turned into something else or
I
> didn't get enough air into it and some anaerobic bacteria beat out the
> mother.
> I am trying to make a balsamic style vinegar. Is there any Italians from
> the region that make balsamic vinegar that can comment?
> Sarge

Hello Sarge,
My vinegar has been great until this batch. I have never seen the "mother'
before. There is always a lot of sediment in the bottom and a slight scum
on top, but no layer of the gelatinous substance. It has a beautiful, but
sharp nose. Sometimes when we have friends over for wine, we end up tasting
vinegar samples to see how they are when made from different wines. I had
some that I made with a full bodied zin. The zin was originally very good,
but tannic. I cellared some of it too long. It didn't get oxidized
tasting, the balance was just terrible. The vinegar from it had a very good
flavor.

When you start the vinegar, you have to have a fairly low alcohol content
(I'd guess about 12%) or you need to add water to lower the concentration
because the aceto bacter doesn't tolerate high levels of alcohol. The first
time I made vinegar, I used a sample from a bottle of wine that had turned
to vinegar. The wine wasn't very good, so I corked it and set it aside in
the cellar. About a month later I was dumping it out and it smelled and
tasted like vinegar. Then I started adding wine.

I'd like to learn about the balsamic vinegar, too. So far, I buy the
vinegar from Modena that is available in the grocery stores, but I'd like to
get a couple of small wood containers to use for making my own vinegar with
left-over wine.

Fred

--
Remove _nail to reply

"Yves Tychon" > wrote in message
...
> Maybe you left it in the jar for too long. My wife is into "vinegar
making"
> and she regularly tastes the stuff and once she has the impression that it
> is "mature" she fills it into bottles (i.e. separating it from the
"mother"
> to prevent it from becoming really nasty-acidic).
>
> Maybe it is a silly question as you seem to have some experience with it:
> are you sure that you never mixed white and red wine in the same vinegar
jar
> and that you never used cork-tainted wines?
>
> Regards
>
> Yves
>

When the vinegar is strong enough, I pour it off into another container and
throw away the sediment. I don't pasteurize it, like some do. The vinegar
that appears to be spoiled never made it to a good state. I have added a
bit of white wine, but 95% has been red. I have never put any TCA tainted
wine in the vinegar jug, but I have put wine in that wasn't good due to
Bret. The bad smell isn't barnyard, though.

Fred

--
Remove _nail to reply

I seem to have the same problem with my vinegar making. When my batch of
vinegar got a pungent smell I started some other batches in parallel. They
also have the scum on top but they have the expected vinegar aroma not the
pungent aroma.
I have no idea why the one batch smells pungent and noone has been able to
explain it.
I figure I left it too long and the vinegar turned into something else or I
didn't get enough air into it and some anaerobic bacteria beat out the
mother.
I am trying to make a balsamic style vinegar. Is there any Italians from
the region that make balsamic vinegar that can comment?
Sarge

"Yves Tychon" > wrote in message
...
> Maybe you left it in the jar for too long. My wife is into "vinegar
making"
> and she regularly tastes the stuff and once she has the impression that it
> is "mature" she fills it into bottles (i.e. separating it from the
"mother"
> to prevent it from becoming really nasty-acidic).
>
> Maybe it is a silly question as you seem to have some experience with it:
> are you sure that you never mixed white and red wine in the same vinegar
jar
> and that you never used cork-tainted wines?
>
> Regards
>
> Yves
>
>
> "Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
> news:31Qtd.226849$R05.199293@attbi_s53...
> > I didn't get any replies, so I changed the title. I'd like to hear some
> > opinions from people that make vinegar and possibly from some
biochemists.
> >
> > "Fred C. Young" > wrote in message
> > news:H5ttd.459589$wV.297785@attbi_s54...
> > > A couple of years ago I started using left over wine for making
vinegar.
> > I
> > > have had good results until a few months ago. One of the jars
developed
> a
> > > gelatinous layer on the top of the vinegar. I thought that must be
the
> > > "mother". It didn't smell good, but I thought it was only the mother
> that
> > I
> > > was smelling and the vinegar would still be fine. I've added wine and
> > > additional mothers have formed in different layers. In other words,
the
> > > mothers have stratified within the vinegar with vinegar between the
> lower
> > > layers.
> > >
> > > Besides smelling offensive, the vinegar isn't good. I'm throwing it
> out,
> > > but I would like to know what happened. Some of the information I
have
> > read
> > > on making vinegar describes the mother as what I have. When the
> vinegars
> > > were good, there was no evidence of this jelly like cap on the top of
> the
> > > vinegar.
> > >
> > > Apparently a bacteria started growing that wasn't desirable, but it
> formed
> > > the characteristic mother. I had the vinegar stored in a cupboard in
> the
> > > kitchen. I had cheesecloth over the top of the jar. I am wondering
if
> > the
> > > temperature may have been too high and the undesirable bacteria liked
it
> > > better than the aceto-bacter aceti. The temperature is kept around 70
> > > degrees F.
> > >
> > > Any ideas on what went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening
> > again?
> > >
> > > Fred

"Yves Tychon" > wrote in message
...
> Maybe you left it in the jar for too long. My wife is into "vinegar
making"
> and she regularly tastes the stuff and once she has the impression that it
> is "mature" she fills it into bottles (i.e. separating it from the
"mother"
> to prevent it from becoming really nasty-acidic).
>
> Maybe it is a silly question as you seem to have some experience with it:
> are you sure that you never mixed white and red wine in the same vinegar
jar
> and that you never used cork-tainted wines?
>
> Regards
>
> Yves
>

When the vinegar is strong enough, I pour it off into another container and
throw away the sediment. I don't pasteurize it, like some do. The vinegar
that appears to be spoiled never made it to a good state. I have added a
bit of white wine, but 95% has been red. I have never put any TCA tainted
wine in the vinegar jug, but I have put wine in that wasn't good due to
Bret. The bad smell isn't barnyard, though.

Fred

--
Remove _nail to reply

"Fred C. Young" > skrev i melding
news:31Qtd.226849$R05.199293@attbi_s53...
>I didn't get any replies, so I changed the title. I'd like to hear some
> opinions from people that make vinegar and possibly from some biochemists.
>
Hi
You may want to try the rec.craft.winemaking newsgroup. They might put you
in the right direction or even give you answers!
hth
Anders