There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any difference " between Rice
Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar. According to this Asian culinary site, they are
the same thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice Wine" is a different
matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would be found in a wine shop, not
in the vinegar section or the Asian food section of your supermarket. )

" In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice wine vinegar."
So says this Asian culinary site.

http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm

On 11 Apr 2004 00:35:18 GMT, (Nancree) wrote:

>
>There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any difference " between Rice
>Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar. According to this Asian culinary site, they are
>the same thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice Wine" is a different
>matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would be found in a wine shop, not
>in the vinegar section or the Asian food section of your supermarket. )
>
>" In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice wine vinegar."
>So says this Asian culinary site.
>
>http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm


OTOH,

"Rice vinegars are made from fermented rice. Rice wine vinegars are
generally made from the lees (dregs) of the wine. " from
http://www.ochef.com/595.htm

It doesn't seem to be a distinction with much difference, but my
bottle of rice vinegar says "made from fremented rice" while ads for
rice wine vinegar mention being brewed (or "distilled") from sake or
rice wine.

"Nancree" > wrote in message
...
>
> There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any difference " between
Rice
> Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar. According to this Asian culinary site,
they are
> the same thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice Wine" is a
different
> matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would be found in a wine shop,
not
> in the vinegar section or the Asian food section of your supermarket. )
>
> " In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice wine vinegar."
> So says this Asian culinary site.
>
> http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm
>

Right - just don't call it mirin.

Dimitri

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
...
> On 11 Apr 2004 00:35:18 GMT, (Nancree) wrote:
>
> >
> >There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any difference " between
Rice
> >Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar. According to this Asian culinary site,
they are
> >the same thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice Wine" is a
different
> >matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would be found in a wine shop,
not
> >in the vinegar section or the Asian food section of your supermarket. )
> >
> >" In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice wine vinegar."
> >So says this Asian culinary site.
> >
> >http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm
>
>
> OTOH,
>
> "Rice vinegars are made from fermented rice. Rice wine vinegars are
> generally made from the lees (dregs) of the wine. " from
> http://www.ochef.com/595.htm
>
> It doesn't seem to be a distinction with much difference, but my
> bottle of rice vinegar says "made from fremented rice" while ads for
> rice wine vinegar mention being brewed (or "distilled") from sake or
> rice wine.
>
>

But since the results are indistinguishable, does it really matter?


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Frogleg wrote:

> On 11 Apr 2004 00:35:18 GMT, (Nancree) wrote:
>
>
>>There has been frequent confusion on RFC about "any difference " between Rice
>>Vinegar and Rice Wine Vinegar. According to this Asian culinary site, they are
>>the same thing--just a difference in labeling. ("Rice Wine" is a different
>>matter. It is a wine and not a vinegar. It would be found in a wine shop, not
>>in the vinegar section or the Asian food section of your supermarket. )
>>
>>" In recipes, rice vinegar is sometimes also called "rice wine vinegar."
>>So says this Asian culinary site.
>>
>>http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bld_r.htm
>
> OTOH,
>
> "Rice vinegars are made from fermented rice. Rice wine vinegars are
> generally made from the lees (dregs) of the wine. " from
> http://www.ochef.com/595.htm
>
> It doesn't seem to be a distinction with much difference, but my
> bottle of rice vinegar says "made from fremented rice" while ads for
> rice wine vinegar mention being brewed (or "distilled") from sake or
> rice wine.

And, to add a further hairsplitting distinction, sake is technically a
beer, not a wine. A very flat beer, but a beer nonetheless.

pastorio

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:48:24 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
> And, to add a further hairsplitting distinction, sake is technically a
> beer, not a wine. A very flat beer, but a beer nonetheless.

True, or, not. Words don't work that way, except when they do.

The word "beer" has fairly specific connotations, and it's always been
used (in English, I have no opinion about other languages) to refer to
a malted beverage. Sake is not malted (that the once distilled beer from
which Scotch is distilled is referred to as "low wines" contributes
nothing _useful_ to the discussion); there are records of the use of
saliva-borne amylase to make sake, these days it's all two-step
fermentation aided by an enzyme producing fungus (the fungus makes an
enzyme that breaks down the undigestible starches into yummy sugars,
the yeasts mug them for the sugars (anthropomorphically speaking)).

Beer is a low strength carbonated beverage fermented from malted grain.
If beer means 'fermented from (malted) GRAIN', sake might be beer. If
beer means 'fermented from MALTED grain', it certainly isn't. That a
strong fermented still beverage made in the same manner as beer is
referred to as "barley wine" implies that carbonation and or strength
are, or at the time that usage became popular were, dispositive.

In several scientific fields, there are "splitters" (people who slice
groups ever smaller, based on ever more esoteric criteria) and lumpers
(people who try to maximise the population under any term). I'm a splitter;
I'd argue that sake is a different thing, and that only rarely would a
native speaker of English see, taste, or observe the construction of,
sake, and call it beer.

Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake, "brewed with the
best Louisiana rice!", and that would be a bad thing.

Martin
--
Martin Golding | If I'd wanted all that water in my beer,
Dod #0236 KotLQ | why would I have paid so much to have it dehydrated?

"Martin Golding" > wrote in message
news
>
> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake, "brewed with the
> best Louisiana rice!", and that would be a bad thing.
>
> Martin
> --

Miller used to make a point of saying they do not use rice in their beer.
Has their formula changed? If so it is not perceptible to my taste.

Charlie

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:48:24 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>Frogleg wrote:
>
>>
>> It doesn't seem to be a distinction with much difference, but my
>> bottle of rice vinegar says "made from fremented rice" while ads for
>> rice wine vinegar mention being brewed (or "distilled") from sake or
>> rice wine.
>
>And, to add a further hairsplitting distinction, sake is technically a
>beer, not a wine. A very flat beer, but a beer nonetheless.

I read that sake is technically the name for alcohol and that the
alcohol content of 'sake' was comparable to that of wine (around 16%).
Unless it's fortified with other alcohol.

Martin Golding wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:48:24 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>And, to add a further hairsplitting distinction, sake is technically a
>>beer, not a wine. A very flat beer, but a beer nonetheless.
>
> True, or, not. Words don't work that way, except when they do.

Couldna said it better myself. And I have an English degree. From an
actual university.

> The word "beer" has fairly specific connotations, and it's always been
> used (in English, I have no opinion about other languages) to refer to
> a malted beverage. Sake is not malted (that the once distilled beer from
> which Scotch is distilled is referred to as "low wines" contributes
> nothing _useful_ to the discussion);

And the first-run distillate is called "high wine" (just wrote an
article about distillation for an encyclopedia).

> there are records of the use of
> saliva-borne amylase to make sake, these days it's all two-step
> fermentation aided by an enzyme producing fungus

Aspergillus niger, among others.

> (the fungus makes an
> enzyme that breaks down the undigestible starches into yummy sugars,
> the yeasts mug them for the sugars (anthropomorphically speaking)).

And, interestingly, one of the enzymes the Japanese use to begin the
sake-making process is used in Beano. Which is neither a beer nor a
wine and is designed to minimize one of the secondary effects of beer
consumption. And Brussels sprouts. Not to mention all their kindred
brassicas.

> Beer is a low strength carbonated beverage fermented from malted grain.
> If beer means 'fermented from (malted) GRAIN', sake might be beer. If
> beer means 'fermented from MALTED grain', it certainly isn't. That a
> strong fermented still beverage made in the same manner as beer is
> referred to as "barley wine" implies that carbonation and or strength
> are, or at the time that usage became popular were, dispositive.

One of the traditional distinctions is the source material. If fruit,
it's wine. If grain, beer. Not very subtle, to be sure.

> In several scientific fields, there are "splitters" (people who slice
> groups ever smaller, based on ever more esoteric criteria) and lumpers
> (people who try to maximise the population under any term). I'm a splitter;
> I'd argue that sake is a different thing, and that only rarely would a
> native speaker of English see, taste, or observe the construction of,
> sake, and call it beer.

See, this is the dark side of orthography. The side that says popular
opinion should be considered in creating definitions. Where would all
those effete, armgarter/eyeshade types who sit in dark garrets writing
dictionaries be if we let the hoi polloi have a role in the subject.
It would be the ruin of us all, like having to consume great
quantities of corn syrup solids or reality TV.

Ok, for the sake of harmony, I'll support your notion of splitting.
Henceforward, sake will be a separate category (if that's what you
think is best, apparently being a scientist and all).

> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake, "brewed with the
> best Louisiana rice!", and that would be a bad thing.

Um, I don't think they use rice, but I could be wrong. Although
there's certainly nothing wrong with Louisiana.

'Nother glass...?

Pastorio

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:12:05 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
> Martin Golding wrote:
>> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake, "brewed with the
>> best Louisiana rice!", and that would be a bad thing.

I believe, on careful reconsideration, that I have unfairly disparaged
an honest purveyor of beer. On our motorcycle trip to Louisiana, the
first little cafe we stopped at in Cajun country had a Budweiser (my
slowly recovering memory tells me) calendar on the wall, with, in
letters readable across the room "Brewed with the Best Louisiana Rice!".
I have wrongully attributed to Miller that minim of goodness which is
rightfully Bud's.

> Um, I don't think they use rice, but I could be wrong.

I believe that all the American style beers add extra starch or sugar,
to increase the alcohol content without risking adding any flavor. In
the Northwest breweries I believe I've mostly seen corn, but I haven't
visited a major brand brewery for decades.


> Although there's
> certainly nothing wrong with Louisiana.

Lafayette Louisiana has some of the best food in the nation. It's the
heart of Cajun country, and hasn't been brutally touristed like N'awlins.

We're planning a trip back next year. We'll be eating off plan.

Martin
--
Martin Golding | Studies indicate that undernutrition increases lifespan.
DoD #236 | Eat good, die young. Leave a big corpse.

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 09:15:42 +0000, Charles Gifford wrote:
> "Martin Golding" > wrote in message
> news

>> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake, "brewed with the
>> best Louisiana rice!", and that would be a bad thing.

> Miller used to make a point of saying they do not use rice in their beer.
> Has their formula changed? If so it is not perceptible to my taste.

I was wrong. *Budweiser* uses rice. Miller uses assorted sugars.


My bad,

Martin
--
Martin Golding | I don't have to be right.
DoD #0236 | I have a _recipe_ for crow.

"Martin Golding" > wrote in message
news
> On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 09:15:42 +0000, Charles Gifford wrote:
> > "Martin Golding" > wrote in message
> > news
>
> >> Because, if sake is beer, Miller is, arguably, sake, "brewed with the
> >> best Louisiana rice!", and that would be a bad thing.
>
> > Miller used to make a point of saying they do not use rice in their
beer.
> > Has their formula changed? If so it is not perceptible to my taste.
>
> I was wrong. *Budweiser* uses rice. Miller uses assorted sugars.
>
>
> My bad,
>
> Martin

That's ok Martin. I like sugar in my beer I guess! ;-)

Charlie