As a well-known AFW resident busybody, I've periodically taken it upon myself
to post courtesy reminders. As the American holiday of Thanksgiving approaches,
I thought I'd do once more. The friends I've made here (though some I've never
seen!) are one of the things I'm thankful for.

BTW, Some very good info can be found at the group FAQ,
http://www.virtual-ink.com.au/afw-faq/guide.htm,

A few thoughts (mostly derived from previous courtesy posts):
1) This is Usenet , a tool for discussion. Don't expect to post something w/o
possibility of someone refuting it.
2) Please keep in mind that many of the contributors to alt.food.wine do not
speak English as their first language. Also even for some of us who do, it's
easy to mistake the tone of written communication. If there's 2 ways to take a
post, be easy on yourself and decide the least offensive perception is the
correct one.
3) Let's try to avoid personal comments. If you don't like someone, filter
their posts. The details of how to do that vary according to newsreader
software, but tutorials exist on the Web for employing filters in all the
popular newsreaders.
4) If you realize someone's intent is to provoke and annoy (in other words, a
troll) , please just ignore. Every time you argue with them, or invoke their
name, you're stroking their (IMHO somewhat warped) ego.
http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy9.html

If you feel compelled to respond,I can't stop you. But please don't quote
trolls , it puts their words in front of those who have kill-filed them
5)New Folks: you're here to learn, right? So if someone who has been on AFW
for years and serious about wine for 30+ corrects you, learn from it, don't get
your feelings hurt.
6) Old folks : remember you were new (to wine and AFW) at some point, too.
Correct if need be, but let's try to do so graciously.
7) Personally, I find it less than helpful to make generalizations about people
based on where they live, what they do outside wine, etc. People who invoke
offensive off-topic subjects on a regular basis deserve to be killfiled,
period.
8) No one is superior (In My Humble Opinion) based on either the simplicity or
elegance of what they eat or drink. Isn't this group big enough for someone to
have Shiraz with BBQed chicken and another to have rack of lamb with a fine
Pauillac? Does it somehow offend you to read about a meal you wouldn't eat
yourself? If someone says that they will not drink certain types of wines,
don't waste your time worrying about their opinions of those wines, listen to
those that do.
9)Newbies: we welcome your participation (this is speaking as someone who has
participated for a few years, I'm neither a true old-timer or a newbie). But as
in ANY social situation, whether on or off line, it is wisest not to attack a
respected member of a community while a newbie, it really won't win you any
points. It is a time-honored tradition that one should lurk for a while before
posting to get a feel re tone of a group.
10)Most of the people here use their real names Some use a pseudonym, but do
include a valid email address. As to others, I personally don't feel that it's
wise to put too much energy into conversations with those who are unaccountable
and unreachable. As they say,YMMV.
So there. As usual, I'm sure I've offended a couple of old-timers and a couple
of newbies, but hope the rest of you can take these remarks to heart. I don't
claim to be immune to digression (I remember ruefully the "collectors recork
wine every 10years/chianti cannot be drunk young/Europeans are all wine
sophisticates" guy.
I got a little over-involved;sorry!);all I'm asking is that we try to keep
these guidelines in mind.

best wishes,

Dale

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Dale Williams wrote:

<SNIP>

> So there. As usual, I'm sure I've offended a couple of old-timers and a couple
> of newbies, but hope the rest of you can take these remarks to heart. I don't
> claim to be immune to digression (I remember ruefully the "collectors recork
> wine every 10years/chianti cannot be drunk young/Europeans are all wine
> sophisticates" guy.

Dale, you #$&(*$(&&*ing $(&(*#$&(*%, may you burn in *&%^&*%&^%^!!!!! :P

p.s. Have a great Turkey Day! I hope to read about the feast when I
get back from our Thanksgiving excursion.

Mark Lipton

Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.

This year we are doing a Fondue for Thanksgiving of Tenderlon and my wife
will make some fun sauces in including bearnaise, mustard-horseradish...and
few others...

Life is to short to year Turkey and I have seen a Turkey processing
plant....never AGAIN.

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> As a well-known AFW resident busybody, I've periodically taken it upon
> myself
> to post courtesy reminders. As the American holiday of Thanksgiving
> approaches,
> I thought I'd do once more. The friends I've made here (though some I've
> never
> seen!) are one of the things I'm thankful for.
>
> BTW, Some very good info can be found at the group FAQ,
> http://www.virtual-ink.com.au/afw-faq/guide.htm,
>
> A few thoughts (mostly derived from previous courtesy posts):
> 1) This is Usenet , a tool for discussion. Don't expect to post something
> w/o
> possibility of someone refuting it.
> 2) Please keep in mind that many of the contributors to alt.food.wine do
> not
> speak English as their first language. Also even for some of us who do,
> it's
> easy to mistake the tone of written communication. If there's 2 ways to
> take a
> post, be easy on yourself and decide the least offensive perception is the
> correct one.
> 3) Let's try to avoid personal comments. If you don't like someone, filter
> their posts. The details of how to do that vary according to newsreader
> software, but tutorials exist on the Web for employing filters in all the
> popular newsreaders.
> 4) If you realize someone's intent is to provoke and annoy (in other
> words, a
> troll) , please just ignore. Every time you argue with them, or invoke
> their
> name, you're stroking their (IMHO somewhat warped) ego.
> http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy9.html
>
> If you feel compelled to respond,I can't stop you. But please don't quote
> trolls , it puts their words in front of those who have kill-filed them
> 5)New Folks: you're here to learn, right? So if someone who has been on
> AFW
> for years and serious about wine for 30+ corrects you, learn from it,
> don't get
> your feelings hurt.
> 6) Old folks : remember you were new (to wine and AFW) at some point, too.
> Correct if need be, but let's try to do so graciously.
> 7) Personally, I find it less than helpful to make generalizations about
> people
> based on where they live, what they do outside wine, etc. People who
> invoke
> offensive off-topic subjects on a regular basis deserve to be killfiled,
> period.
> 8) No one is superior (In My Humble Opinion) based on either the
> simplicity or
> elegance of what they eat or drink. Isn't this group big enough for
> someone to
> have Shiraz with BBQed chicken and another to have rack of lamb with a
> fine
> Pauillac? Does it somehow offend you to read about a meal you wouldn't eat
> yourself? If someone says that they will not drink certain types of wines,
> don't waste your time worrying about their opinions of those wines, listen
> to
> those that do.
> 9)Newbies: we welcome your participation (this is speaking as someone who
> has
> participated for a few years, I'm neither a true old-timer or a newbie).
> But as
> in ANY social situation, whether on or off line, it is wisest not to
> attack a
> respected member of a community while a newbie, it really won't win you
> any
> points. It is a time-honored tradition that one should lurk for a while
> before
> posting to get a feel re tone of a group.
> 10)Most of the people here use their real names Some use a pseudonym, but
> do
> include a valid email address. As to others, I personally don't feel that
> it's
> wise to put too much energy into conversations with those who are
> unaccountable
> and unreachable. As they say,YMMV.
> So there. As usual, I'm sure I've offended a couple of old-timers and a
> couple
> of newbies, but hope the rest of you can take these remarks to heart. I
> don't
> claim to be immune to digression (I remember ruefully the "collectors
> recork
> wine every 10years/chianti cannot be drunk young/Europeans are all wine
> sophisticates" guy.
> I got a little over-involved;sorry!);all I'm asking is that we try to keep
> these guidelines in mind.
>
> best wishes,
>
> Dale
>
> Dale
>
> Dale Williams
> Drop "damnspam" to reply

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:03:34 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:

>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.

Which is why I am serving roast duck this year, along with some nice
Rosenblum Zinfandel!

-- Robert

>GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:
>
>>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
>
>Which is why I am serving roast duck this year,

Robert, that's one solution! Another is to get a heritage turkey (though it
takes advance planning!).

cheers,


>


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Dale Williams wrote:
>>GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:
>>>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
>>Which is why I am serving roast duck this year,
> Robert, that's one solution! Another is to get a heritage turkey (though it
> takes advance planning!).

Dale that must be a common problem. The more bottles that I have on
hand, the more often I have to shop for the "right" wine.
Bill

On 22 Nov 2004 23:08:34 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams) said:

] >GMT, "Richard Neidich"
] > wrote:
] >
] >>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
] >
] >Which is why I am serving roast duck this year,
]
] Robert, that's one solution! Another is to get a heritage turkey (though it
] takes advance planning!).
]

Thanks for the reminder, Dale. I was speculating how long it would
take before you stuck your oar in!

Happy thanksgiving to all. Just spoke to the bird farmer, ours is
ready to pick up tomorrow. BTW, what's a "heritage turkey?" No
antibiotics or hormones? Or one from here in France?

I haven't yet solved the wine conundrum for this year. Probably
won't until thursday morning when a decision is forced upon me...

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

> Just spoke to the bird farmer, ours is
>ready to pick up tomorrow. BTW, what's a "heritage turkey?" No
>antibiotics or hormones? Or one from here in France?

Heritage turkey is a marketing term circulated these days for a variety of
"heirloom" breeds which are raised in an enviroment that allows at least some
foraging . Bourbon Reds & Naragansetts are 2 of the most popular. Tend to have
much smaller breasts than whatever breed the butterball ones are, but far more
flavor .

Best to you and Adele!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article >,
Emery Davis > wrote:

> On 22 Nov 2004 23:08:34 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams) said:
>
> ] >GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> ] > wrote:
> ] >
> ] >>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
> ] >
> ] >Which is why I am serving roast duck this year,
> ]
> ] Robert, that's one solution! Another is to get a heritage turkey (though it
> ] takes advance planning!).
> ]
>
> Thanks for the reminder, Dale. I was speculating how long it would
> take before you stuck your oar in!
>
> Happy thanksgiving to all. Just spoke to the bird farmer, ours is
> ready to pick up tomorrow. BTW, what's a "heritage turkey?" No
> antibiotics or hormones? Or one from here in France?
>
> I haven't yet solved the wine conundrum for this year. Probably
> won't until thursday morning when a decision is forced upon me...
>
> -E

A really old turkey!!!! Actually, here they are called "free range" but
the ones I get are basically wild turkeys.

In article >,
Emery Davis > wrote:

> On 22 Nov 2004 23:08:34 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams) said:
>
> ] >GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> ] > wrote:
> ] >
> ] >>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
> ] >
> ] >Which is why I am serving roast duck this year,
> ]
> ] Robert, that's one solution! Another is to get a heritage turkey (though it
> ] takes advance planning!).
> ]
>
> Thanks for the reminder, Dale. I was speculating how long it would
> take before you stuck your oar in!
>
> Happy thanksgiving to all. Just spoke to the bird farmer, ours is
> ready to pick up tomorrow. BTW, what's a "heritage turkey?" No
> antibiotics or hormones? Or one from here in France?
>
> I haven't yet solved the wine conundrum for this year. Probably
> won't until thursday morning when a decision is forced upon me...
>
> -E

A really old turkey!!!! Actually, here they are called "free range" but
the ones I get are basically wild turkeys.

> Just spoke to the bird farmer, ours is
>ready to pick up tomorrow. BTW, what's a "heritage turkey?" No
>antibiotics or hormones? Or one from here in France?

Heritage turkey is a marketing term circulated these days for a variety of
"heirloom" breeds which are raised in an enviroment that allows at least some
foraging . Bourbon Reds & Naragansetts are 2 of the most popular. Tend to have
much smaller breasts than whatever breed the butterball ones are, but far more
flavor .

Best to you and Adele!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 22 Nov 2004 23:08:34 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams) said:

] >GMT, "Richard Neidich"
] > wrote:
] >
] >>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
] >
] >Which is why I am serving roast duck this year,
]
] Robert, that's one solution! Another is to get a heritage turkey (though it
] takes advance planning!).
]

Thanks for the reminder, Dale. I was speculating how long it would
take before you stuck your oar in!

Happy thanksgiving to all. Just spoke to the bird farmer, ours is
ready to pick up tomorrow. BTW, what's a "heritage turkey?" No
antibiotics or hormones? Or one from here in France?

I haven't yet solved the wine conundrum for this year. Probably
won't until thursday morning when a decision is forced upon me...

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

> wrote:
>
>>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.

Get a turducken!
Bi!!

In article >,
(RV WRLee) wrote:

> > wrote:
> >
> >>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
>
> Get a turducken!
> Bi!!

Did a Turducken last year for a Cajun Thanksgiving. Did not go over well
with a diverse crowd who expect traditional but I loved it.

In article >,
(RV WRLee) wrote:

> > wrote:
> >
> >>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
>
> Get a turducken!
> Bi!!

Did a Turducken last year for a Cajun Thanksgiving. Did not go over well
with a diverse crowd who expect traditional but I loved it.

>GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:
>
>>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.
>
>Which is why I am serving roast duck this year,

Robert, that's one solution! Another is to get a heritage turkey (though it
takes advance planning!).

cheers,


>


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

> wrote:
>
>>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.

Get a turducken!
Bi!!

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:03:34 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:

>Turkey would be better if it tasted more like Duck.

Which is why I am serving roast duck this year, along with some nice
Rosenblum Zinfandel!

-- Robert

On 22 Nov 2004 21:00:55 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>As a well-known AFW resident busybody, I've periodically taken it upon myself
>to post courtesy reminders. As the American holiday of Thanksgiving approaches,
>I thought I'd do once more. The friends I've made here (though some I've never
>seen!) are one of the things I'm thankful for.
>
>BTW, Some very good info can be found at the group FAQ,
>http://www.virtual-ink.com.au/afw-faq/guide.htm,
>
>A few thoughts (mostly derived from previous courtesy posts):
>1) This is Usenet , a tool for discussion. Don't expect to post something w/o
>possibility of someone refuting it.
>2) Please keep in mind that many of the contributors to alt.food.wine do not
>speak English as their first language. Also even for some of us who do, it's
>easy to mistake the tone of written communication. If there's 2 ways to take a
>post, be easy on yourself and decide the least offensive perception is the
>correct one.
>3) Let's try to avoid personal comments. If you don't like someone, filter
>their posts. The details of how to do that vary according to newsreader
>software, but tutorials exist on the Web for employing filters in all the
>popular newsreaders.
>4) If you realize someone's intent is to provoke and annoy (in other words, a
>troll) , please just ignore. Every time you argue with them, or invoke their
>name, you're stroking their (IMHO somewhat warped) ego.
>http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy9.html
>
>If you feel compelled to respond,I can't stop you. But please don't quote
>trolls , it puts their words in front of those who have kill-filed them
>5)New Folks: you're here to learn, right? So if someone who has been on AFW
>for years and serious about wine for 30+ corrects you, learn from it, don't get
>your feelings hurt.
>6) Old folks : remember you were new (to wine and AFW) at some point, too.
>Correct if need be, but let's try to do so graciously.
>7) Personally, I find it less than helpful to make generalizations about people
>based on where they live, what they do outside wine, etc. People who invoke
>offensive off-topic subjects on a regular basis deserve to be killfiled,
>period.
>8) No one is superior (In My Humble Opinion) based on either the simplicity or
>elegance of what they eat or drink. Isn't this group big enough for someone to
>have Shiraz with BBQed chicken and another to have rack of lamb with a fine
>Pauillac? Does it somehow offend you to read about a meal you wouldn't eat
>yourself? If someone says that they will not drink certain types of wines,
>don't waste your time worrying about their opinions of those wines, listen to
>those that do.
>9)Newbies: we welcome your participation (this is speaking as someone who has
>participated for a few years, I'm neither a true old-timer or a newbie). But as
>in ANY social situation, whether on or off line, it is wisest not to attack a
>respected member of a community while a newbie, it really won't win you any
>points. It is a time-honored tradition that one should lurk for a while before
>posting to get a feel re tone of a group.
>10)Most of the people here use their real names Some use a pseudonym, but do
>include a valid email address. As to others, I personally don't feel that it's
>wise to put too much energy into conversations with those who are unaccountable
>and unreachable. As they say,YMMV.
>So there. As usual, I'm sure I've offended a couple of old-timers and a couple
>of newbies, but hope the rest of you can take these remarks to heart. I don't
>claim to be immune to digression (I remember ruefully the "collectors recork
>wine every 10years/chianti cannot be drunk young/Europeans are all wine
>sophisticates" guy.
>I got a little over-involved;sorry!);all I'm asking is that we try to keep
>these guidelines in mind.
>
>best wishes,
>Dale Williams

Whatever he said....

Happy Thanksgiving. Only Monday and SWMBO is adrift in la cocina,
getting increasingly frantic and issuing random demands for unusual
ingredients....

Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
of Thursday.

(Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???)



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> Happy Thanksgiving. Only Monday and SWMBO is adrift in la cocina,
> getting increasingly frantic and issuing random demands for unusual
> ingredients....
>
> Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
> Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
> of Thursday.
>
> (Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
> buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???)

LOL!! Because you don't want to waste your precious Ridge Zins on the
impossible collection of foods that grace most Thanksgiving tables, Ed???

Mark Lipton

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:21:24 -0500, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
>> Happy Thanksgiving. Only Monday and SWMBO is adrift in la cocina,
>> getting increasingly frantic and issuing random demands for unusual
>> ingredients....
>>
>> Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
>> Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
>> of Thursday.
>>
>> (Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
>> buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???)
>
>LOL!! Because you don't want to waste your precious Ridge Zins on the
>impossible collection of foods that grace most Thanksgiving tables, Ed???
>
>Mark Lipton

Wine is to be consummed, and I've got few bottles that are
"off-limits". Still, it seems that nothing in the cellar seems to be
appropriate. The incredible conflict is the desire on one hand to
enhance the meal which comes as a result of significant effort while
at the other hand minimizing the "pearls before swine" syndrome of
seeing a few folks who don't make much distinction about what is
placed before them swill the good stuff without much appreciation.

Before someone chastizes me for crass elitism, let me state that the
friends who share my holiday table are highly valued and that I
inevitably lean toward the better bottles and the hope that maybe a
discussion of what we might be enjoying will blossom into greater
enjoyment.

Still, for the "impossible collection" of foods, I don't think the
Italians which seem to be the latest tilt of my cellar, nor the Ridge
zins (or their new co-tenants of the basement, the Renwood Amador
County zins), or the gradually growing Bordeaux samplings which need a
couple of years, nor anything else (particularly not the Monte Bello
vertical I've been nurturing) seem appropriate.

I've always liked Schug PN and the two spatleses will satisfy those
who insist that white goes with poultry. Rheingau has always been may
favorite German and the Mosel will offer a bit of contrast and a
lighter taste.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> Wine is to be consummed, and I've got few bottles that are
> "off-limits". Still, it seems that nothing in the cellar seems to be
> appropriate. The incredible conflict is the desire on one hand to
> enhance the meal which comes as a result of significant effort while
> at the other hand minimizing the "pearls before swine" syndrome of
> seeing a few folks who don't make much distinction about what is
> placed before them swill the good stuff without much appreciation.

Yup. I know the problem well. Some of our most cherished friends will
happily drink anything that's put in front of them and don't want to
spend any time analyzing the wine. I don't mind serving them bottles
that I treasure, but I'm not very motivated to pull a special bottle out
just for them. OTOH, like you I never give up trying to spark that
special, "aha" feeling in them either. You never know what might spark
that extra interest...

> Still, for the "impossible collection" of foods, I don't think the
> Italians which seem to be the latest tilt of my cellar, nor the Ridge
> zins (or their new co-tenants of the basement, the Renwood Amador
> County zins), or the gradually growing Bordeaux samplings which need a
> couple of years, nor anything else (particularly not the Monte Bello
> vertical I've been nurturing) seem appropriate.

No indeed. Simple roast turkey is a good red wine meat, and some
stuffings will be fine, too. However, gravy, cranberry sauce and sweet
potatoes are no friend of most red wines IMO. And then there are the
various extras such as creamed onions, boiled turnips, etc. that only
complicate things.

>
> I've always liked Schug PN and the two spatleses will satisfy those
> who insist that white goes with poultry. Rheingau has always been may
> favorite German and the Mosel will offer a bit of contrast and a
> lighter taste.

Yup. PN and Riesling seem to be the hands-down favorites for this meal.

Enjoy!
Mark Lipton

>snip discription of the usual Thanksgiving fare

>Yup. PN and Riesling seem to be the hands-down favorites for this meal.
>
>Enjoy!
>Mark Lipton

Godd choices Mark. I picked the wine for Thanksgiving, and nobody objected to
the Fritz Haag Brauneberger Juffer Kabinett 02, or the Chevillon Bourgogne 01.

No, I didn't feel like taking notes, but the F.Haag had a little sulfur and
petrol, but not overwhelming, with none of the spritz I've seen in his other
bottlings. The Chevillon was simple cherry fruit melding nicely with subtle
oak.

Of course you didn't say whether you would prefer dry or off-dry Riesling, but
this was off-dry.

Tom Schellberg

>snip discription of the usual Thanksgiving fare

>Yup. PN and Riesling seem to be the hands-down favorites for this meal.
>
>Enjoy!
>Mark Lipton

Godd choices Mark. I picked the wine for Thanksgiving, and nobody objected to
the Fritz Haag Brauneberger Juffer Kabinett 02, or the Chevillon Bourgogne 01.

No, I didn't feel like taking notes, but the F.Haag had a little sulfur and
petrol, but not overwhelming, with none of the spritz I've seen in his other
bottlings. The Chevillon was simple cherry fruit melding nicely with subtle
oak.

Of course you didn't say whether you would prefer dry or off-dry Riesling, but
this was off-dry.

Tom Schellberg

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> Wine is to be consummed, and I've got few bottles that are
> "off-limits". Still, it seems that nothing in the cellar seems to be
> appropriate. The incredible conflict is the desire on one hand to
> enhance the meal which comes as a result of significant effort while
> at the other hand minimizing the "pearls before swine" syndrome of
> seeing a few folks who don't make much distinction about what is
> placed before them swill the good stuff without much appreciation.

Yup. I know the problem well. Some of our most cherished friends will
happily drink anything that's put in front of them and don't want to
spend any time analyzing the wine. I don't mind serving them bottles
that I treasure, but I'm not very motivated to pull a special bottle out
just for them. OTOH, like you I never give up trying to spark that
special, "aha" feeling in them either. You never know what might spark
that extra interest...

> Still, for the "impossible collection" of foods, I don't think the
> Italians which seem to be the latest tilt of my cellar, nor the Ridge
> zins (or their new co-tenants of the basement, the Renwood Amador
> County zins), or the gradually growing Bordeaux samplings which need a
> couple of years, nor anything else (particularly not the Monte Bello
> vertical I've been nurturing) seem appropriate.

No indeed. Simple roast turkey is a good red wine meat, and some
stuffings will be fine, too. However, gravy, cranberry sauce and sweet
potatoes are no friend of most red wines IMO. And then there are the
various extras such as creamed onions, boiled turnips, etc. that only
complicate things.

>
> I've always liked Schug PN and the two spatleses will satisfy those
> who insist that white goes with poultry. Rheingau has always been may
> favorite German and the Mosel will offer a bit of contrast and a
> lighter taste.

Yup. PN and Riesling seem to be the hands-down favorites for this meal.

Enjoy!
Mark Lipton

>> (Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
>> buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???

Ed, I totally sympathize. I have 600 bottles, and at least once a week I
realize I don't have what I want for that dinner! Good excuse for shopping.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article >,
Mark Lipton > wrote:

> Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
> > Happy Thanksgiving. Only Monday and SWMBO is adrift in la cocina,
> > getting increasingly frantic and issuing random demands for unusual
> > ingredients....
> >
> > Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
> > Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
> > of Thursday.
> >
> > (Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
> > buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???)
>
> LOL!! Because you don't want to waste your precious Ridge Zins on the
> impossible collection of foods that grace most Thanksgiving tables, Ed???
>
> Mark Lipton

That is always a problem I have as well. Despite a large collection I
always go out for wines for Thanksgiving. Will be having something for
everyone. Domaine Faurmarie Coteaux du Languedoc 2002, Robertson
Springfield Estate 2002 Chardonnay (South Africa) that has some
extremely unusual an interesting tastes to it (somewhat nutty and
spicy), and Domaine Carneros Brut Rose 2001. Hopefully, I've covered all
bases. Probably could use a couple of bottles of Rheingau as we have 12
people.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:21:24 -0500, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
>> Happy Thanksgiving. Only Monday and SWMBO is adrift in la cocina,
>> getting increasingly frantic and issuing random demands for unusual
>> ingredients....
>>
>> Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
>> Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
>> of Thursday.
>>
>> (Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
>> buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???)
>
>LOL!! Because you don't want to waste your precious Ridge Zins on the
>impossible collection of foods that grace most Thanksgiving tables, Ed???
>
>Mark Lipton

Wine is to be consummed, and I've got few bottles that are
"off-limits". Still, it seems that nothing in the cellar seems to be
appropriate. The incredible conflict is the desire on one hand to
enhance the meal which comes as a result of significant effort while
at the other hand minimizing the "pearls before swine" syndrome of
seeing a few folks who don't make much distinction about what is
placed before them swill the good stuff without much appreciation.

Before someone chastizes me for crass elitism, let me state that the
friends who share my holiday table are highly valued and that I
inevitably lean toward the better bottles and the hope that maybe a
discussion of what we might be enjoying will blossom into greater
enjoyment.

Still, for the "impossible collection" of foods, I don't think the
Italians which seem to be the latest tilt of my cellar, nor the Ridge
zins (or their new co-tenants of the basement, the Renwood Amador
County zins), or the gradually growing Bordeaux samplings which need a
couple of years, nor anything else (particularly not the Monte Bello
vertical I've been nurturing) seem appropriate.

I've always liked Schug PN and the two spatleses will satisfy those
who insist that white goes with poultry. Rheingau has always been may
favorite German and the Mosel will offer a bit of contrast and a
lighter taste.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

>> (Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
>> buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???

Ed, I totally sympathize. I have 600 bottles, and at least once a week I
realize I don't have what I want for that dinner! Good excuse for shopping.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article >,
Mark Lipton > wrote:

> Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
> > Happy Thanksgiving. Only Monday and SWMBO is adrift in la cocina,
> > getting increasingly frantic and issuing random demands for unusual
> > ingredients....
> >
> > Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
> > Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
> > of Thursday.
> >
> > (Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
> > buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???)
>
> LOL!! Because you don't want to waste your precious Ridge Zins on the
> impossible collection of foods that grace most Thanksgiving tables, Ed???
>
> Mark Lipton

That is always a problem I have as well. Despite a large collection I
always go out for wines for Thanksgiving. Will be having something for
everyone. Domaine Faurmarie Coteaux du Languedoc 2002, Robertson
Springfield Estate 2002 Chardonnay (South Africa) that has some
extremely unusual an interesting tastes to it (somewhat nutty and
spicy), and Domaine Carneros Brut Rose 2001. Hopefully, I've covered all
bases. Probably could use a couple of bottles of Rheingau as we have 12
people.

"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
...
> On 22 Nov 2004 21:00:55 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> wrote:
>
> Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
> Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
> of Thursday.
>
Interesting, what stock do you use, beef or veal? (the foreigner says)
:-)
Happy thanksgiving to you all over there.
Anders

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:25:12 GMT, "Anders Tørneskog"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
.. .
>> On 22 Nov 2004 21:00:55 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
>> wrote:
>>
>> Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
>> Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
>> of Thursday.
>>
>Interesting, what stock do you use, beef or veal? (the foreigner says)
>:-)
>Happy thanksgiving to you all over there.
>Anders
>
How humiliating to be caught in a language gaffe by a furriner!

As for the large (free range) turkey, it will be laved in a gravy made
with turkey stock, of course. From a turkey previously roasted who
gave his all for the sustenance of the family.

Thank you for the kind wishes.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

"Anders Tørneskog" in ...
>
> "Ed Rasimus" wrote:
> >
> > .. two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
> > of Thursday.
> >
> Interesting, what stock do you use, beef or veal? (the foreigner says)
> :-)

At least as apropos, and of possible interest, is an unusual recent thread
on the food forum at the (US) westcoastwine.net site. This thread chiefly
concerns making meat stocks (discussions of technique, amateur and
professional), but includes digressions into absinthes past and present, and
learned comments from that forum's own resident chemistry professor (Frank
Deis) on the chemistry of Beano(tm) and why this helpful product works for
multiple vegetables. Also, homage to _Tafelspitz_ and (sorry) a few
quotations and references to sources.

The full thread can be currently found at this address (the disgressions
start at about the second "Page"):

http://tinyurl.com/5exv4


-- Max

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:25:12 GMT, "Anders Tørneskog"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
.. .
>> On 22 Nov 2004 21:00:55 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
>> wrote:
>>
>> Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
>> Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
>> of Thursday.
>>
>Interesting, what stock do you use, beef or veal? (the foreigner says)
>:-)
>Happy thanksgiving to you all over there.
>Anders
>
How humiliating to be caught in a language gaffe by a furriner!

As for the large (free range) turkey, it will be laved in a gravy made
with turkey stock, of course. From a turkey previously roasted who
gave his all for the sustenance of the family.

Thank you for the kind wishes.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

Folks in the USA I wish you a very happy and healthy Thanksgiving. Dal;e
thankyou for your news group thoughts I find them well timed because I am a
real Newbe to this post and I agree with the spirit that you have
communicated to us. I personnally like wines and pairing them with foods.
When I started to drink wines in the 60's Ontario produced quite undrinkable
items other than sherry and port.

I drank many Italian and French wines until Ontario planted vinefera variety
and hybrid grapses and as a result became proficient in producing agreeable
wines. I now drink Ontario wines for the most part. I started making wine
from kits in 2000. I enjoy it and have been quite pleased by the quality of
wine the premium kits produce. I started looking at this post about three
weeks ago. that is how Newbe I am. I have enjoyed the banter and I have
found it very educational.

I do not agree totally with our friend on this post that feels Italy is or
should be the one and only source of wine. I firmly believe that the French
deserve more respect. The Boreaux region is the grandma for many of our
classic reds like Cab Franc, Cab Sauvignon, Merlot.

Italy has a varied climate and soils that allow it to produce a vast number
of varieties of grapes and wines with local flavours. Europe has also
established the pairing of local wines with local foods to a much greater
extent than we have in North America. I include both Canada and the USA in
this regard. We are still wrestling with this and will be for a while. This
is not a criticism but it is rather a reflection of our more recent
production of varietal grapes and wines and our lack of local distinctions
in our foods. Canada has cool temperature growing conditions where In the
USA you have both warm and cool temperature growing conditions. you have
variations in your wines from the same grapes because of this you will have
Whites that are acid citrus from cool and sugar mellon from warm.(
simplified too much for some of you)

I gather our friend Ernie back from Europe who gags on California wines does
not appreciate the warm climate variation and so he should try the cool
temperture wines. One of my Canadian collegues found it odd that I had not
offered Niagara cool temperature wines as an alternative. Well I felt Ernie
wanted USA wines to puke.

I am aware of the many years of high degree of international cooperation
there has been between the growers of the Finger Lake Region of New York and
the Niagara Ontario growers in developing the varieties and improving the
wines in the area.

Take care and have a good holiday

Bob Patrick, Ontario

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On 22 Nov 2004 21:00:55 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> wrote:
>
> >As a well-known AFW resident busybody, I've periodically taken it upon
myself
> >to post courtesy reminders. As the American holiday of Thanksgiving
approaches,
> >I thought I'd do once more. The friends I've made here (though some I've
never
> >seen!) are one of the things I'm thankful for.
> >
> >BTW, Some very good info can be found at the group FAQ,
> >http://www.virtual-ink.com.au/afw-faq/guide.htm,
> >
> >A few thoughts (mostly derived from previous courtesy posts):
> >1) This is Usenet , a tool for discussion. Don't expect to post something
w/o
> >possibility of someone refuting it.
> >2) Please keep in mind that many of the contributors to alt.food.wine do
not
> >speak English as their first language. Also even for some of us who do,
it's
> >easy to mistake the tone of written communication. If there's 2 ways to
take a
> >post, be easy on yourself and decide the least offensive perception is
the
> >correct one.
> >3) Let's try to avoid personal comments. If you don't like someone,
filter
> >their posts. The details of how to do that vary according to newsreader
> >software, but tutorials exist on the Web for employing filters in all the
> >popular newsreaders.
> >4) If you realize someone's intent is to provoke and annoy (in other
words, a
> >troll) , please just ignore. Every time you argue with them, or invoke
their
> >name, you're stroking their (IMHO somewhat warped) ego.
> >http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy9.html
> >
> >If you feel compelled to respond,I can't stop you. But please don't quote
> >trolls , it puts their words in front of those who have kill-filed them
> >5)New Folks: you're here to learn, right? So if someone who has been on
AFW
> >for years and serious about wine for 30+ corrects you, learn from it,
don't get
> >your feelings hurt.
> >6) Old folks : remember you were new (to wine and AFW) at some point,
too.
> >Correct if need be, but let's try to do so graciously.
> >7) Personally, I find it less than helpful to make generalizations about
people
> >based on where they live, what they do outside wine, etc. People who
invoke
> >offensive off-topic subjects on a regular basis deserve to be killfiled,
> >period.
> >8) No one is superior (In My Humble Opinion) based on either the
simplicity or
> >elegance of what they eat or drink. Isn't this group big enough for
someone to
> >have Shiraz with BBQed chicken and another to have rack of lamb with a
fine
> >Pauillac? Does it somehow offend you to read about a meal you wouldn't
eat
> >yourself? If someone says that they will not drink certain types of
wines,
> >don't waste your time worrying about their opinions of those wines,
listen to
> >those that do.
> >9)Newbies: we welcome your participation (this is speaking as someone who
has
> >participated for a few years, I'm neither a true old-timer or a newbie).
But as
> >in ANY social situation, whether on or off line, it is wisest not to
attack a
> >respected member of a community while a newbie, it really won't win you
any
> >points. It is a time-honored tradition that one should lurk for a while
before
> >posting to get a feel re tone of a group.
> >10)Most of the people here use their real names Some use a pseudonym,
but do
> >include a valid email address. As to others, I personally don't feel that
it's
> >wise to put too much energy into conversations with those who are
unaccountable
> >and unreachable. As they say,YMMV.
> >So there. As usual, I'm sure I've offended a couple of old-timers and a
couple
> >of newbies, but hope the rest of you can take these remarks to heart. I
don't
> >claim to be immune to digression (I remember ruefully the "collectors
recork
> >wine every 10years/chianti cannot be drunk young/Europeans are all wine
> >sophisticates" guy.
> >I got a little over-involved;sorry!);all I'm asking is that we try to
keep
> >these guidelines in mind.
> >
> >best wishes,
> >Dale Williams
>
> Whatever he said....
>
> Happy Thanksgiving. Only Monday and SWMBO is adrift in la cocina,
> getting increasingly frantic and issuing random demands for unusual
> ingredients....
>
> Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
> Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
> of Thursday.
>
> (Why is it with several hundred bottles in the basement, I go out and
> buy wine for the dinner??? What's wrong with this picture???)
>
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org

"Ed Rasimus" > skrev i melding
...
> On 22 Nov 2004 21:00:55 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> wrote:
>
> Two bottles of a nice Mosel-Saar Ruwer Spatlese, two of a Rheingau
> Spatlese and two Schug Carneros PN added to the stock in anticipation
> of Thursday.
>
Interesting, what stock do you use, beef or veal? (the foreigner says)
:-)
Happy thanksgiving to you all over there.
Anders

On 22 Nov 2004 21:00:55 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>As a well-known AFW resident busybody, I've periodically taken it upon myself
>to post courtesy reminders. As the American holiday of Thanksgiving approaches,
>I thought I'd do once more. The friends I've made here (though some I've never
>seen!) are one of the things I'm thankful for.
>
[snip]

>10)Most of the people here use their real names Some use a pseudonym, but do
>include a valid email address. As to others, I personally don't feel that it's
>wise to put too much energy into conversations with those who are unaccountable
>and unreachable. As they say,YMMV.

For the record, I post under a pseudonym for professional reasons. I
don't want my activities here to influence my (wine-related) job
responsibilities, or vice versa. But the e-mail address I use here is
a valid one. Anyone who has followed my postings knows that I live in
the Seattle area and recently had the pleasure of hosting Ian and
Jacquie Hoare while they were in this area. I admit to a certain
partiality toward Columbia Valley wines but by no means am I going to
insist that they are uniformly better than wines from anywhere else.
Anyone who has the opportunity to visit the Seattle area should feel
free to contact me via e-mail and I'll do what I can to make your
visit here enjoyable.

>So there. As usual, I'm sure I've offended a couple of old-timers and a couple
>of newbies, but hope the rest of you can take these remarks to heart. I don't
>claim to be immune to digression (I remember ruefully the "collectors recork
>wine every 10years/chianti cannot be drunk young/Europeans are all wine
>sophisticates" guy.
>I got a little over-involved;sorry!);all I'm asking is that we try to keep
>these guidelines in mind.
>
>best wishes,
>
>Dale
>
Thanks for your comments, Dale.

Vino

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> As a well-known AFW resident busybody, I've periodically taken it upon
> myself
> to post courtesy reminders. As the American holiday of Thanksgiving
> approaches,
> I thought I'd do once more. The friends I've made here (though some I've
> never
> seen!) are one of the things I'm thankful for.

I realize that this is a little late, but I've been out of town enjoying the
Holiday Week with my sister, her S.O. Lee, the Hoares, Michael Loo and Carol
Bryant. I'm sure that Ian will fill everyone in on the details, including
copious tasting notes and a play-by-play of dinner at the French Laundry.
We also managed to squeeze in some winery visits with Bob Robertson, which
was the first time we had all met in person.

I hope everyone here had as good a Holiday as we all did!

Tom S

Thanks Dale for your wise comments on courtesy.

The virtual-ink FAQ is very useful. I continue to feel that some light
information about roots and past history of this newsgroup might be a useful
addition. Thus as, for example, Google lists a "Timeline" of notable events
in Usenet (newsgroup) history on the Google Groups Information page at
groups.google.com (where that firm's very large archive resides), likewise a
few memorable events occurred in the circumstances leading to the present
AFW newsgroup and its current users. (I saw a few of those events,
certainly not all.) But a little context-setting can be useful, especially
for newcomers. As newsgroups progressed from being for many years the sole
public forums on the growing Internet (with its various earlier names and
adjuncts), to being the medium whereby Tim Berners-Lee disseminated his new
HTML/HTTP or "Web" concept in 1991, to being overshadowed lately by the
popularity and capability of those HTML tools, we now have a situation where
many Internet users are unaware of newsgroups, or confused about them.
Context is antidotal and has often been welcomed. Just a thought for the
day.

Incidentally one of the few disadvantages of reading newsgroups today
compared to the earlier days is that you no longer encounter the
automatically reposted "Netiquette Guidelines" reminders. They used to be
in the form of a re-posted article (from 1982) and in 1995 became formalized
as the well-known reference document RFC1855 (minus, alas, some earthy but
useful advice in its less-formal predecessor).


I wonder finally if anyone posting here from the US has already explained
that the "Thanksgiving" holiday is the US version of a harvest festival,
manifested in many countries since ancient times, through various holidays
and feasts. A widespread custom with local variations. Also of practical
importance to US wine merchants, French producers of Beaujolais Nouveau, and
to many turkeys personally.

-- Max

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> As a well-known AFW resident busybody, I've periodically taken it upon
> myself
> to post courtesy reminders. As the American holiday of Thanksgiving
> approaches,
> I thought I'd do once more. The friends I've made here (though some I've
> never
> seen!) are one of the things I'm thankful for.

I realize that this is a little late, but I've been out of town enjoying the
Holiday Week with my sister, her S.O. Lee, the Hoares, Michael Loo and Carol
Bryant. I'm sure that Ian will fill everyone in on the details, including
copious tasting notes and a play-by-play of dinner at the French Laundry.
We also managed to squeeze in some winery visits with Bob Robertson, which
was the first time we had all met in person.

I hope everyone here had as good a Holiday as we all did!

Tom S