Was having a tipple with a friend the other day and got into an
"interesting" discussion. The (white) wine was particularly acidic and
the discussion of whether it would/could improve with age arose. There
_was_ a _hefty_ fruit component; it's just that the acidity was the
overwhelming character.

I've heard that (appropriate) acidity is necessary for successful aging
of wine, so I'm curious what the effect of time would be on a
particularly acidic wine. I was always under the impression that the
acidity would _not_ mitigate with time. My friend thought the acid
_would_ temper with time. Where lies the truth?

--
Regards,

- Roy

=*=*=
Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
- Mark Twain
The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Was having a tipple with a friend the other day and got into an
> "interesting" discussion. The (white) wine was particularly acidic and
> the discussion of whether it would/could improve with age arose. There
> _was_ a _hefty_ fruit component; it's just that the acidity was the
> overwhelming character.
>
> I've heard that (appropriate) acidity is necessary for successful aging
> of wine, so I'm curious what the effect of time would be on a
> particularly acidic wine. I was always under the impression that the
> acidity would _not_ mitigate with time. My friend thought the acid
> _would_ temper with time. Where lies the truth?
>
As with many aspects of the magic of wine.... You are both right. Some
whites age well & the acids will intigrate into the wine... some will become
teeth vibrating, test of manhood horrors. What kind of wine was it? Of
course, the classic ageing whites are German Rieslings & Semillon (botrytis
affected or otherwise)... Many Chards age well... But the whole topic of
ageing whites would take up far too many kilobytes & far too much of this
beautifull day.

Off to play in my garden
Mathew

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:23:37 GMT, Roy >
wrote:

>Was having a tipple with a friend the other day and got into an
>"interesting" discussion. The (white) wine was particularly acidic and
>the discussion of whether it would/could improve with age arose. There
>_was_ a _hefty_ fruit component; it's just that the acidity was the
>overwhelming character.
>
>I've heard that (appropriate) acidity is necessary for successful aging
>of wine, so I'm curious what the effect of time would be on a
>particularly acidic wine. I was always under the impression that the
>acidity would _not_ mitigate with time. My friend thought the acid
>_would_ temper with time. Where lies the truth?

I'll be able to tell you when my friends finally get to the "battery
acid" It's an 1990 Ayler Kupp Riesling Trocken. For the best part of
10 years I've been saying that it's "coming round".

There's one bottle left and I'll report the results of the experiment.

James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Roy,

I certainly think that acidic whites age better than rounder whites. But I
don't think a wine that is actually unbalanced young is likely to age well.

You don't specify what the wine is. Young Savennieres can often have very high
acidity, and probably ages as well as any dry white. The other main contenders
would probably be Austrian or Alsace Rieslings (my experience with German
trockens is limited) - wines that typically have a lot of acidity. White
Burgundy also tends to age better in more acidic vintages, IMHO.

I'll leave it to the chemists here to say whether the acidity actually changed
with age. My gut feeling of older Savennieres (and sec Vouvray) and older
Alsace Rieslings is that these are still clearly acidic wines, but the
development of secondary flavors helps the acidity integrate better.

In off-dry and sweet wines I think it's clear that acidity is a boon to aging.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Salut/Hi Roy,

le/on Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:23:37 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>the discussion of whether it would/could improve with age arose. There
>_was_ a _hefty_ fruit component; it's just that the acidity was the
>overwhelming character.
>
>I've heard that (appropriate) acidity is necessary for successful aging
>of wine, so I'm curious what the effect of time would be on a
>particularly acidic wine. I was always under the impression that the
>acidity would _not_ mitigate with time. My friend thought the acid
>_would_ temper with time. Where lies the truth?

IMO the acidity always seems to diminish with time, though I've no idea why,
or whether it _really_ does. The risk with a light white is that along with
the acidity diminishing, the fruit will disappear.

With a wine with plenty of fruit, it could be that the fruit will survive
and the wine become better balanced.

Plenty of dry whites live for ages. As others have said, Savennières is a
classic, as are Burgundies. I've had plenty of sauvignon based wines which
age remarkably gracefully for 6-8 years.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Dale Williams wrote:

> You don't specify what the wine is. Young Savennieres can often have very high
> acidity, and probably ages as well as any dry white. The other main contenders
> would probably be Austrian or Alsace Rieslings (my experience with German
> trockens is limited) - wines that typically have a lot of acidity. White
> Burgundy also tends to age better in more acidic vintages, IMHO.

And Chablis -- which I would hazard is the most acidic chardonnay by and
large -- is famous for its ability to age well.

>
> I'll leave it to the chemists here to say whether the acidity actually changed
> with age. My gut feeling of older Savennieres (and sec Vouvray) and older
> Alsace Rieslings is that these are still clearly acidic wines, but the
> development of secondary flavors helps the acidity integrate better.

One aspect of aging is purported to be the reaction of the acids with
alcohol to form esters, one component of the bouquet that comes with
age. To be honest, I've never quite understood why that reaction should
proceed at all since there is no appreciable energetic benefit. Perhaps
over that time scale, however, the desolvation of the alcohol is the
driving force... <walks off mumbling to self>
>
> In off-dry and sweet wines I think it's clear that acidity is a boon to aging.

Yup.

Mark Lipton

>. White
>> Burgundy also tends to age better in more acidic vintages, IMHO.
>
>And Chablis -- which I would hazard is the most acidic chardonnay

Just to clarify, I include Chablis when I say white Burgundy.


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:14:46 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>
>IMO the acidity always seems to diminish with time, though I've no idea why,
>or whether it _really_ does.

I have heard that a small reduction in acidity happens as tartaric
acid reacts with any calcium and potassium in the wine, precipitating
as tartrate / bitartrate.

I have also heard that tartaric acid and alcohol react to produce
esters.

What's the truth, Mark?

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,

le/on Fri, 04 Jun 2004 13:48:27 +0200, tu disais/you said:-

>On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:14:46 +0200, Ian Hoare >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>IMO the acidity always seems to diminish with time, though I've no idea why,
>>or whether it _really_ does.

>I have heard that a small reduction in acidity happens as tartaric
>acid reacts with any calcium and potassium in the wine, precipitating
>as tartrate / bitartrate.

yes, that makes sense, though I'd expect this to be a fairly rapid
phenomenon. I'm thinking more about the much longer term softening in wines
like Savennières.

>I have also heard that tartaric acid and alcohol react to produce
>esters.

Yes, I could well see that happening in a small way, and indeed that it
would take longer. However I know the smell of most esters, which is pretty
characteristic, and I'm not sure that's what I find. I'm at a loss to
describe the change really. A general softening of the wine, and a gain in
complexity, perhaps. Similar to the changes in reds, though because the
acidity in whites is less masked by tannins, it shows somewhat differently.

>What's the truth, Mark?

I look forward to what he says too!

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Mike Tommasi wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:14:46 +0200, Ian Hoare >
> wrote:
>
>
>>IMO the acidity always seems to diminish with time, though I've no idea why,
>>or whether it _really_ does.
>
>
> I have heard that a small reduction in acidity happens as tartaric
> acid reacts with any calcium and potassium in the wine, precipitating
> as tartrate / bitartrate.
>
> I have also heard that tartaric acid and alcohol react to produce
> esters.
>
> What's the truth, Mark?

"'What is truth?' said jesting Pilate..." Great opening line, right up
there with "Cogito ergo sum" and "Call me Ishmael" and on a more obscure
note "...to wound the autumnal city." See my other post in this thread
for a serious answer to your question, Mike.

Mark Lipton

>IMO the acidity always seems to diminish with time, though I've no idea why,
>or whether it _really_ does.

Ian,

Am I alone in thinking same doesn't really seem true with reds? Acidic Chiantis
or Burgundy from an acidic vintage ('93 or '96) always seems acidic to me (not
a complaint, if you know my palate). This was one of the side points that got
lost last year in my (stupid) battle with the Collectors Recork Wines/Europeans
All Have Wine Knowledge guy. But was maybe the most interesting question of
the whole debate. I can't think of a reason that whites' and reds' acids would
age differently.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
news
> Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,
>
> le/on Fri, 04 Jun 2004 13:48:27 +0200, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:14:46 +0200, Ian Hoare
>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>IMO the acidity always seems to diminish with time, though I've no
idea why,
> >>or whether it _really_ does.
>
> >I have heard that a small reduction in acidity happens as tartaric
> >acid reacts with any calcium and potassium in the wine,
precipitating
> >as tartrate / bitartrate.
>
> yes, that makes sense, though I'd expect this to be a fairly rapid
> phenomenon. I'm thinking more about the much longer term softening
in wines
> like Savennières.
>
> >I have also heard that tartaric acid and alcohol react to produce
> >esters.
>
> Yes, I could well see that happening in a small way, and indeed that
it
> would take longer. However I know the smell of most esters, which is
pretty
> characteristic, and I'm not sure that's what I find. I'm at a loss
to

I don't think the various (the story is more complicated than books of
tables would indicate) ethyl tartrates have much of an odor and they
are themselves solids at room temperature and not very soluble in
water. The methyl esters probably don't occur in wine but they melt at
even higher temperatures. I don't deny that it's possible that
tartrate esters might form in wine given considerable time but I'd be
surprised if they had much effect on the acidity. However, as I said,
it's complicated and I'd be quite willing to be surprised!


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> One aspect of aging is purported to be the reaction of the acids with
> alcohol to form esters, one component of the bouquet that comes with
> age. To be honest, I've never quite understood why that reaction should
> proceed at all since there is no appreciable energetic benefit. Perhaps
> over that time scale, however, the desolvation of the alcohol is the
> driving force... <walks off mumbling to self>

Hi, Mark -

Another chemist friend of mine has the same problem with the concept of this
organic reaction going in an essentially aqueous solution. He mentioned
once that he'd heard of so called "lethargic reactions" that could account
for the phenomenon, but the mechanism wasn't clear to him even then.

Tom S

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 04 Jun 2004 20:43:16 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>IMO the acidity always seems to diminish with time, though I've no idea why,
>>or whether it _really_ does.

>Am I alone in thinking same doesn't really seem true with reds?

Well, I'd claim that reds certainly _do_ lose acidity, yes.

>lost last year in my (stupid) battle with the Collectors Recork Wines/Europeans
>All Have Wine Knowledge guy.

Chuckle. Pity Max wasn't around at the time. I wonder how he'd have had us
treat him!

> I can't think of a reason that whites' and reds' acids would age differently.

Simplist answer, Dale. "They start differently".

What I mean by this is that I don't feel red wines are just white wines with
red pigment "added". They usually - even in the softest examples - have
tannins, which are pretty active, chemically, for example. It's a truism
that for red wines to live a long time, they need to have plenty of acidity,
plenty of fruit and plenty of tannins. By the time they are "ready", they've
lost all three, but the original fruit driven flavours have been replaced by
complex (secondary or tertiary) flavours.

It's equally a truism that for whites to live a long time they need plenty
of fruit and acidity and they in turn THEY lose both fruit and acidity and
gain in complexity. I have no idea whatsoever of the chemistry of these
processes, my knowledge is in part from my own experiences, and more perhaps
from reading.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Tom S wrote:

>
> Another chemist friend of mine has the same problem with the concept of this
> organic reaction going in an essentially aqueous solution. He mentioned
> once that he'd heard of so called "lethargic reactions" that could account
> for the phenomenon, but the mechanism wasn't clear to him even then.

I'd think that most would have that same reaction: esters placed in aqueous
acid tend to hydrolyze, and the reverse reaction (what we're talking about
here) occurs only when the water is removed from the reaction. BUT, it's not
clear to me that either reaction -- as usually conducted in the lab -- ever
reaches equilibrium. Over 15-20 years, the system may come to an equilibrium
that favors the formation of the ester, though the only reason I can think of
to rationalize that would be the removal of ethanol from water, thereby
allowing the water to assume a more stable structure. (This explanation
accounts for a lot of biochemical energetics, for instance)

Mark Lipton

"Dale Williams" wrote:
> Am I alone in thinking [acidity doesn't diminish] with reds?
> Acidic Chiantis or Burgundy from an acidic vintage ('93 or '96)
> always seems acidic to me (not a complaint, if you know my palate).

This angle is new to me, and interesting.

What I am accustomed to hearing about, and seeing played out in wines for
many years, is the co-importance of acid content (along with tannins) as
preservatives permitting the "fruit" to evolve to other flavors. Probably
that is very familiar stuff to many of you. One experienced expert in the
1970s characterized tannin and acid as ropes of a "hammock" supporting the
fruit in its patient rest as the wine ages. In that view, acid in youth is
essential for the long term. (And not always appealing in youth. I wonder
by the way how many serious 1988 red Burgundies are yet drinkable? Patience
has been required of their owners.)

But both "tannins" and "acid" tend to fade over time. (-: Dale maybe you
should wait longer to open your 93 and 96 red Burgs. Or if you don't like
them, sell them to me.)

Max

I think the first thing that needs to be established is if acid content
really decreases much over time as would be determined by chemical
analysis as the wine ages. The human sense of taste is easly fooled when
you have a combination of acid, sweet, bitter, and salty as well as
strong smells and mouth feel. For example, some rather sour tasting
lemon juice in water can be made to taste much less acid and quite sweet
by adding enough sugar. Development of various tastes and smells as the
wine ages could well tend to make the wine taste less acid. I think most
of us would agree that many wines taste less acid as they age. The
question is are they really less acid, or is some sort of masking effect
caused by components produced as he wine ages causing the reduction in
acid taste.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

Salut/Hi Cwdjrx _,

le/on Sat, 5 Jun 2004 02:38:36 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

>I think the first thing that needs to be established is if acid content
>really decreases much over time as would be determined by chemical
>analysis as the wine ages.

Grin!! You noticed my caution then.

>wine ages could well tend to make the wine taste less acid. I think most
>of us would agree that many wines taste less acid as they age.

I can't think of any wine off hand which I've followed through from youth to
maturity where this hasn't been true. So instead of "many" I'd say "almost
all", in case someone comes up with a (slightly nitpicking) exception to
invalidate "all" on it's own. :-)))

>question is are they really less acid, or is some sort of masking effect
>caused by components produced as the wine ages causing the reduction in
>acid taste.

Exactly, and without doing chemical analysis over a (say) ten year period,
for a white, I don't think there's any way of knowing. As you rightly say,
there are many ways in which our perception can change. Mind you - in the
real life situation in a bottle, and taking one of the commonest ways of
changing our acid perception, I can't believe that sugar content increases!
In fact it's pretty well documented that in Sauternes, perceived sugars
decrease too with age.

Fascinating subject.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

>many serious 1988 red Burgundies are yet drinkable? Patience
>has been required of their owners.)

Hmm, I always thought of 1988 as more a tannic vintage in Burgundies than an
acidic one.'88 DRC RSV still has quite ample tannins.

>
>But both "tannins" and "acid" tend to fade over time. (-: Dale maybe you
>should wait longer to open your 93 and 96 red Burgs. Or if you don't like
>them, sell them to me.)
>
Actually, I like them fine. Acidity (in balance) doesn't bother me. The recent
'93s I've tried were mostly pretty close to peak- but these were regional and
village level wines (though from good producers like Lafarge, Chevillon, etc).
I have no plans to open the Drouhin Clos de la Roche or CSD or the Chevillon
1ers for a while.

I'll still maintain that there seems to me to be little appreciable drop in
apparent acidity in most reds. I've in last couple years had some '88 & '90
Chiantis- great wines, for folks like me who like acidity. I love '85 Bdx - but
don't know any I'd characterize as fat. One would think that if acids faded
that riper low-acid vintages like '82 would be undrinkably flabby after 22
years. While '82s are not my favorite vintage (a little more opulent than my
preferred style), certainly most of the better classed-growths are drinking
quite well.

best,
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 04 Jun 2004 01:53:55 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams) said:

] >. White
] >> Burgundy also tends to age better in more acidic vintages, IMHO.
] >
] >And Chablis -- which I would hazard is the most acidic chardonnay
]
] Just to clarify, I include Chablis when I say white Burgundy.
]
]

As indeed you might!

Actually just found some bottles germane to this thread. Was clearing out
a pile of old (empty) boxes, underneath is were two 6 bottle cartons of wine
never intended to age. One, a '94 VdP de l'Ardeche from Colombier -- I think
a merlot in fact -- was really awful, down the sink went the first bottle. The other
for which I had even less hope, a '95 Sauvignon St Bris from Sorin de France.
But, lovely full color, intense nose of lemon and other citrus; in the mouth
_searingly_ acidic (which it wouldn't have seemed young) but with loads of
citrus and honey, even some thyme notes. Probably no fun to drink on its own,
but with line-fished bream in sorrel sauce it was really rather good. Since had
another bottle, just the same.

So, can the acidity increase with age?

OT, phew, lots of afw activity, had a hard time catching up. Some good threads,
(too many to respond to) well done all!

-E
--
Emery Davis
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