Several thoughtful comments on this subject appeared in recent NZ-Pinots TN
thread. I resonated.

I agree that Burgundy can be a minefield. And yet -- and yet! I too find
values as low as $10, memorable for sheer joy. (Examples below from recent
years, reds anyway.) Once in 1989 on This Very Usenet, to queries for
available inexpensive premium reds, I suggested what we Californians have
enjoyed for generations, namely Riojas, Chiantis, Beaujolais, and low-end
Burgundies. The last caused distraction and confusion. (What do you mean,
suggesting Burgundy for inexpensive wines, harumph.) Ian Hoare knows what I
meant, I gather, probably others do too.

As a rule I've found the $10-$20 red values, when they did appear, among
exceptional Bourgognes Rouges, regionals (Beaune, Nuits, HCdB, etc), and the
less-fashionable village wines -- Givry, Mercurey, even Rully, all of those
being from the Côte Challonaise; but sometimes from even more fashionable
villages than those. A few years ago the 1996 Jadot B.-Rouges at $11 was in
big US supermarkets and it tasted to promise -- and did in fact deliver --
good meaty stuff in a few years, amazing. (Jadot does many good values and
has expanded impressively over the years.) A good merchant lately showed me
an example -- Jadot 2000 Chorey-les-Beaune at $12 in California, "you may
find it a little hollow," he said; well, I did -- it was not the 96 Rouges
or 91 Lafarge Rouges or 93 Jadot Beaune-Bressandes ( :-) :-) ! ) or
several other 93s, or 95 de Villaine Mercurey "Montots" (doing well now) or
all those 94s that got sold off in 98 as everyone expects 2000s and 2001s to
be sold off later or the 96 Jadot Santenay (another good-value, non-hip
appelation) "Clos de Malte" [drinking well now as the 99 promises to do
also] or the 96 Hudelot-Noellat Rouges [STILL developing] or the 98 Groffier
Rouges or 99 Lafarge Rouges or others ALL of which were under $20 and some
at $10 -- but what this Jadot Chorey has around its hollow part seemed to me
creditable and true to region, certainly for US $12.

(This does not touch the larger and rewarding world of merely moderate
Burgundies that may be well over $20 but still not really expensive.) I
posted that paragraph elsewhere last year and got back, I think, complaint
for the lack of instantly useful recommendations, sadly so in that another
part of the original was an argument that finding wines like those is not a
matter of Revelations or Details but of a regular habit of watching and
tasting what's on the market and talking to others who do so. Merchants
especially.

I'd enjoy seeing other or differing perspectives on the issue.

Salut/Hi Max Hauser,

le/on Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:14:00 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

>Several thoughtful comments on this subject appeared in recent NZ-Pinots TN
>thread. I resonated.
>
>I agree that Burgundy can be a minefield. And yet -- and yet! I too find
>values as low as $10, memorable for sheer joy.

Absolutely right, and I'd tentatively suggest that markups at this bottom
end may be more reasonable that that practised at the "prestigious tip" of
the market. Here in France for example, if I find a Bourgogne Rouge or
Bourgogne Blanc from a decent producer (Sylvie Esmonin or Francis Mikulski,
both of whom I've patronised recently) at ‚¬5-8 then I'd expect to find their
1er cru at about 4-5 times the price. I bought '01 Clos St Jacques - which
is well up to Grand Cru standards anywhere that didn't make theological
subtleties of naming (Le Chambertin, Charmes-Chambertin, Chambertin-Clos de
Bèze) a fine art, at only ‚¬26 recently (working from memory). I also bought
Meursault-Genevrières at ‚¬28.

>Once in 1989 on This Very Usenet, to queries for available inexpensive premium reds, I suggested what we Californians have
>enjoyed for generations, namely Riojas, Chiantis, Beaujolais, and low-end Burgundies. The last caused distraction and confusion. (What do you mean, suggesting Burgundy for inexpensive wines, harumph.) Ian Hoare knows what I
>meant, I gather, probably others do too.

Some people harrumph _before_ putting brain in gear!

The great problem in discussing this on an international wine newsgroup, is
that prices for the same wine vary hugely from country to country. To some
extent, that's inevitable, with taxes varying, varying numbers of stages in
the import chain and their relative markups, and transport costs varying.

So wines that I describe as being excellent value for money at the ‚¬6.50
(call it US$8 between friends) would make me think twice at £6.50 (50%
markup, relative to their retail price in France from the maker), but which
would not shock Tohn Taverner, for example. I'd not consider buying them at
US$16, which as far as I can see is about rock bottom for a decent Bourgogne
Rouge.

>part of the original was an argument that finding wines like those is not a
>matter of Revelations or Details but of a regular habit of watching and
>tasting what's on the market and talking to others who do so. Merchants
>especially.

I use merchants less than recommendations from equally wine loving friends
here and on the French language NG. But most important - for me - I taste
wines directly from the producer either at their properties or at salons,
and judge for myself. Of course a decent merchant fills this niche, if you
can't taste "chez le vigneron".

I will virtually NEVER buy without tasting first, by the way. Anyone -
including a vigneron - can make a mistake, and (unlike Tom Ruddick, to whom
I normally defer without question, when it comes to Burgundies) I don't
really want to pay for them! Burgundy, as everyone agrees, is a minefield,
and the one essential step to avoid losing a foot in such an environment, is
to taste _before_ buying. The corollary of tasting, though, is being
prepared to buy in respectable quantities (a minimum of a dozen for a
moderate wine and perhaps 6 for an expensive one) if you really like the
wine. But it's really dumb to adore a wine and then NOT buy it! The only
excuse is lack of funds, and then one owes it to the winemaker/merchant to
warn them first, I feel.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

In article >, "Max Hauser"
> writes:

> 95 de Villaine Mercurey "Montots" (doing well now)

Hey, I had the '93 of this last night. Maybe a tad past its peak, but still
nice- and I wasn't complaining, think I got it for $4.99 from Premier Cru (plus
a couple bucks shipping).

I think it's pretty impossible in US to find much Burgundy (other than
closeouts) for less than $10 that's very good. The flipside is it's even
harder (for my palate) to find drinkable non-Burgundy PN. Once you get in the
$10-20 area, there's lots of good red Burg choices, that provide reasonable (or
more than reasonable) value. Some recent faves have been the Francoise & Denis
Clair Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Beaune ($12), the Michel Gros
Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Nuits($13), and the Michel Lafarge Bourgogne ($18).
Even though '99 is the most acclaimed vintage, most of these are pretty
dependable - I bought a case each of the 2000 & 2001 Lafarge (a rarity for me
to buy case in anything except Bordeaux to age, I like variety too much to have
a house wine & tend to buy wines I like in 3-4 bottle lots) .

Two other makers of generally top-quality Bourgognes I'd add are Chevillon &
Groffier. Though the 2001 Groffier, while quite tasty, has pushed above the $22
mark and doesn't provide the value of the others IMHO.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

I am far from being an expert on this subject. Please take my
comments as being from a relative wine newbie who has recently been
diving into the subject, and who has been exploring Burgs a little
more than other wines.

My impression from personal experience and comments from others is
that value for money varies a greatly and that good deals (and
rip-offs) are to be had at all levels. I would certainly want to
taste any Burg I was planning on buying more than a few bottles of.

I notice, Max, that Jadot features a few times in your post... I have
tried a few Jadot wines recently at the lower-end and must say that I
have found them all to be attractive and fairly-priced. I am,
literally as I write, dinking a Jadot straight Burgundy (red) 1999.
It is is not terrribly interesting, but beginning to show some
secondary flavours, and is IMO reasonably priced. I believe you can
get it for around £8.00 at supermarkets here in the UK.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

<<<<<(This does not touch the larger and rewarding world of merely
moderate Burgundies that may be well over $20 but still not really
expensive.) >>>>>>
----------------
I recently drank a Grand Cru, a 98 Clos de la Roche from
Morey-Saint-Denis that went for $29.95 which I felt was a steal. But I
should of drank the whole bottle the first night rather than saving rest
in 1/4 and 1/2 bottles. The following night it went flat on me.

Steve Solomon

"Steve Solomon"in ...
> <<<<<(This does not touch the larger and rewarding world of merely
> moderate Burgundies that may be well over $20 but still not really
> expensive.) >>>>>>
> ----------------
> I recently drank a Grand Cru, a 98 Clos de la Roche from
> Morey-Saint-Denis that went for $29.95 which I felt was a steal. But I
> should of drank the whole bottle the first night rather than saving rest
> in 1/4 and 1/2 bottles. The following night it went flat on me.


Any newcomers to red Burgundies reading this, please note the following
caution. Extraordinary quantities or good values for Clos de la Roche
(especially from the recent years 1993, 96, 99, or 01; and with the words
"Dujac," "Leroy," "Ponsot," or "Rousseau" on labels or boxes) are highly
suspect. Do not approach these wines. Expert knowledge is necessary. Call
me for disposition. Will come in person, anywhere, if quantities are
sufficient.

Dale Williams wrote:
> In article >, "Max Hauser"
> > writes:
>
>
>>95 de Villaine Mercurey "Montots" (doing well now)
>
>
> Hey, I had the '93 of this last night. Maybe a tad past its peak, but still
> nice- and I wasn't complaining, think I got it for $4.99 from Premier Cru (plus
> a couple bucks shipping).
>
> I think it's pretty impossible in US to find much Burgundy (other than
> closeouts) for less than $10 that's very good. The flipside is it's even
> harder (for my palate) to find drinkable non-Burgundy PN.

I've never had ANY Burgundies that I can think of, but have noticed that
there are a number of American type negociants who sell some decent
drinkable PNs for $7 to 10. I can't think of any names right now off hand.

Most California commercial producers who put out a cheap PN are usually
selling a real swill of a wine. Nasty! I've not seen any low priced
Oregon Pino's, maybe Columbia Crest makes one? If they do I imagine they
put out a drinkable version.

> Once you get in the
> $10-20 area, there's lots of good red Burg choices, that provide reasonable (or
> more than reasonable) value. Some recent faves have been the Francoise & Denis
> Clair Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Beaune ($12), the Michel Gros
> Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Nuits($13), and the Michel Lafarge Bourgogne ($18).
> Even though '99 is the most acclaimed vintage, most of these are pretty
> dependable - I bought a case each of the 2000 & 2001 Lafarge (a rarity for me
> to buy case in anything except Bordeaux to age, I like variety too much to have
> a house wine & tend to buy wines I like in 3-4 bottle lots) .
>
> Two other makers of generally top-quality Bourgognes I'd add are Chevillon &
> Groffier. Though the 2001 Groffier, while quite tasty, has pushed above the $22
> mark and doesn't provide the value of the others IMHO.
> Dale
>
> Dale Williams
> Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Max Hauser" > wrote in message news:<
>
> Any newcomers to red Burgundies reading this, please note the following
> caution. Extraordinary quantities or good values for Clos de la Roche
> (especially from the recent years 1993, 96, 99, or 01; and with the words
> "Dujac," "Leroy," "Ponsot," or "Rousseau" on labels or boxes) are highly
> suspect. Do not approach these wines. Expert knowledge is necessary. Call
> me for disposition. Will come in person, anywhere, if quantities are
> sufficient.

Kind of you to help us out, Max. I have culled the offending wines
from my collection and emailed them to you for proper disposal.

> recently drank a Grand Cru, a 98 Clos de la Roche from
>Morey-Saint-Denis that went for $29.95 which I felt was a steal

Steve,

do you remember the producer? $30 for a Clos de la Roche is a good price in any
case.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>Extraordinary quantities or good values for Clos de la Roche
>(especially from the recent years 1993, 96, 99, or 01; and with the words
>"Dujac," "Leroy," "Ponsot," or "Rousseau" on labels or boxes) are highly
>suspect. Do not approach these wines. Expert knowledge is necessary. Call
>me for disposition.

You are a generous, generous man.

I'm trying hard not to buy any wine for a while, especially over $30 bottles. I
will note for the general good that Premier Cru is showing a couple bottles of
the 1996 Ponsot Clos de la Roche V.V. for $85 or $90, I forget.More than I want
to spend, but probably half of typical retail.






Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Steve,
do you remember the producer? $30 for a Clos de la Roche is a good price
in any case.
Dale
-------------
Domain Lignier - Michelot

I purchased the bottle at a independent grocery store in Berkeley called
Berkeley Bowl, January of 2003. Should of opened the bottle then.

Steve Solomon

In article >,
(Steve Solomon) writes:

>Domain Lignier - Michelot
>
>I purchased the bottle at a independent grocery store in Berkeley called
>Berkeley Bowl, January of 2003. Should of opened the bottle then

I'm met the producer (Virgile Lignier, I think ). Young guy, small domaine. But
usually makes quite good wines - I liked his '99 & '99 CdlR , didn't taste the
'98. Surprised it would fall apart that fast. I bought a couple of his wines
(Morey 1ers).
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

I'm met the producer (Virgile Lignier, I think ). Young guy, small
domaine. But usually makes quite good wines - I liked his '99 & '99 CdlR
, didn't taste the '98. Surprised it would fall apart that fast. I
bought a couple of his wines (Morey 1ers).
Dale
----------------
I think I failed to make clear that the wine was outstanding the first
night shortly after opening the bottle. It was the following night when
it all fell apart. I've only experienced this before with much older
vintages.

Steve Solomon

In article >,
(Steve Solomon) writes:

>hink I failed to make clear that the wine was outstanding the first
>night shortly after opening the bottle. It was the following night when
>it all fell apart. I've only experienced this before with much older
>vintages.

no, I understood. Just a '98 Grand Cru from a decent maker should have better
body than falling apart overnight. Makes me wonder re some damage ? Light heat
damage doesn't usually have apparent cooked odors- in fact can sometimes make
wine more fruit-forward and accessible- but can damage longevity. Maybe this
sat around at 75-78°F for a while before you had it. Hey, at least the first
night was grand! I've had that happen a few times, saved some then regretted
next day I didn't have at least one more glass!

best,

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>I think it's pretty impossible in US to find much Burgundy (other than
closeouts) for less than $10 that's very good. The flipside is it's even
>harder (for my palate) to find drinkable non-Burgundy PN.

Dale

It's interesting that you mention non-Burgundian PN. I tried the Oregon Pinot
Noir club for a year (two bottles per month), for $18/bottle plus shipping. I
found most of the wines to be simple with a tendancy to use too much oak for
the amount of body and stuffing. They seem to be trying for subtlety, and have
interesting bouquets, but little complexity. I think the vines are too young. I
read a piece by Oz Clarke which said the same thing.

Tom Schellberg

I recently bought a wine safe for me trip to Spain/South France and when I
did I loaded with inexpensive Burgs to bring home from Florida.

Here is what I selected:

Lafaive Pommard 1998
Vosne Romanee Engel 2000
Bourgogne Rouge Vougeraie 2000
Fixen Pierre Gelin 1999
Cotes Du Ventoux Vidal 2000

All under $30.

Anyone familiar with these wines. I was not. However the retail owner used
to help me pick out wines at Berns Steak house in Tampa when he was an
employee and usually I enjoyed his recommendations when he was there. I
only bought 2-3 of each to try.

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> > recently drank a Grand Cru, a 98 Clos de la Roche from
> >Morey-Saint-Denis that went for $29.95 which I felt was a steal
>
> Steve,
>
> do you remember the producer? $30 for a Clos de la Roche is a good price
in any
> case.
> Dale
>
> Dale Williams
> Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article et>, "dick"
> writes:

>
>Lafaive Pommard 1998

Never heard of Lefaive, I'm guessing Leflaive, and I'm guessing Olivier. He has
a few reds, to my knowledge Domaine (Vincent) Leflaive is all white. Never had
this, but the '98 Pommards I have had were a little hard around the edges, I'd
suggest a little more bottle time or ample decanting.

>Vosne Romanee Engel 2000

I did have this, soft and accessible. Nice wine at under $30. Could drink now
or hold a few years.

>Bourgogne Rouge Vougeraie 2000
Not had, but like this newish domaine's Savigny. Vougeraie is gaining good rep.


>Cotes Du Ventoux Vidal 2000

Not a Burg, Southern Rhone. Most famous CdVentoux is La Vieille Ferme, from the
Perrrins. Vidal I believe is owned by Guigal, but I could be wrong. I'm
assuming this one was WAY under $30, most CdV go for $5-8.

Cheers!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Correct on the Cotes de Ventous---7.99 bottle...I bought a case of this for
my wife when I travel. I thought it tasted decent enough for her to share
with her Bunko night.



"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>, "dick"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Lafaive Pommard 1998
>
> Never heard of Lefaive, I'm guessing Leflaive, and I'm guessing Olivier.
He has
> a few reds, to my knowledge Domaine (Vincent) Leflaive is all white. Never
had
> this, but the '98 Pommards I have had were a little hard around the edges,
I'd
> suggest a little more bottle time or ample decanting.
>
> >Vosne Romanee Engel 2000
>
> I did have this, soft and accessible. Nice wine at under $30. Could drink
now
> or hold a few years.
>
> >Bourgogne Rouge Vougeraie 2000
> Not had, but like this newish domaine's Savigny. Vougeraie is gaining good
rep.
>
>
> >Cotes Du Ventoux Vidal 2000
>
> Not a Burg, Southern Rhone. Most famous CdVentoux is La Vieille Ferme,
from the
> Perrrins. Vidal I believe is owned by Guigal, but I could be wrong. I'm
> assuming this one was WAY under $30, most CdV go for $5-8.
>
> Cheers!
> Dale
>
> Dale Williams
> Drop "damnspam" to reply