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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 06-10-2003, 04:30 PM
Dale Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default Courtesy, once again

As one of the resident self-appointed AFW busybodies, I feel once again
compelled to make a post re courtesy. In doing so, I'm not trying to point
fingers, nor am I trying to sidestep my own responsibility in this latest
donnybrook. It's just good to step back sometimes and remember some general
guidelines. A lot of this is distilled from earlier posts, so might not apply
to recent discussions. But still, IMHO, worth remembering.

1) Personally, I find it less than helpful to make generalizations about people
based on where they live, what they do outside wine, etc. And don't be too sure
you know someone's nationality or residence- at least 3 assumptions made
recently were incorrect (to the best of my knowledge).
2) Let's try to cut the personal comments, OK? If you don't like someone,
filter their posts.
3) Try to avoid stating opinions as certainties. The use of terms like "in my
opinion" (IMO, IMHO, IMNSVHO, etc.) add nuance to statements which might
otherwise irritate or offend.
4) If you're being funny or teasing, use emoticons. If someone uses a smile or
wink emoticon, take a breath before you get offended by their words!
5) Please try to not relive old arguments.
6)Try to be precise if you can. But if someone isn't, correct only if there's a
real possibilty of confusion, or if you feel it can contribute to the general
readership's wine knowledge.
7)This is Usenet , a tool for discussion. Don't expect to post something w/o
possibility of someone refuting it.
8) No one is superior (In My Humble Opinion) based on either the simplicity or
elegance of what they eat or drink. Isn't this group big enough for someone to
have Shiraz with BBQed chicken and another to have rack of lamb with a fine
Pauillac? Does it somehow offend you to read about a meal you wouldn't eat
yourself?
9)New Folks: you're here to learn, right? So if someone who has been serious
about wine for many years corrects you, learn from it, don't get your feelings
hurt.
10) Old folks (speaking from perspective of how long you've been on AFW , you
can be new at 66 or old at 26 in my view): remember you were new (to wine and
AFW) at some point, too. Correct if need be, but let's try to do so graciously.

11) Newbies: we welcome your participation (this is speaking as someone who has
participated for a few years, I'm neither an old-timer or a newbie). But as in
ANY social situation, whether on or off line, it is wisest not to attack a
respected member of a community while a newbie, it really won't win you any
points.

So there. I'm sure I've offended a few people, including some I regard as
"friends" (in the newsgroup sense). But please try to take these as general
thoughts, not accusations or fingerpointing. And as I said, I'm aware that I
was a participant in the Venice discussion, no better than many others.

Please do not respond with posts about " well poster X broke number 3 before I
broke number 2", or even worse "the (insert Europeans or Americans) ignored
number 6". Let's try to move forward with a modicum of grace, ok?

Dale
PS:I'll add an excellent post Mark Lipton wrote a while ago (bad word wrap edit
my fault):
"Over the past few days, there has been a mini-spate of people takingexception
to the posts of others in this group. As I noted in anotherpost, from my
perspective this group has operated with a minimal amountof interpersonal
friction (for the most part) since I first started reading it in 1999. I think
I speak for everyone here when I say thatwe all want to *encourage* others to
post freely and without fear of"reprisal," so I now offer some advice for
negotiating this newsgroupwith a minimum of Strurm und Drang:
1. Please keep in mind that many of the contributors to alt.food.winedo not
speak English as their first language. Their comments may lacksome of the
nuances of native Anglophones' and consequently appear harshor rude where in
fact no such intention exists.
2. Internet-based communication is treated by most people as informal(like
spoken communication) despite the fact that it's written and solacks the
inflection of spoken communication -- this too can lead tomistaken impressions
of the writer's intent. This is one reason why"smilies" and other emoticons
have been embraced on Usenet. However,not all use them when they should, so we
must also take all comments onUsenet with a thick skin and open mind, as we are
forced to read intothose written words the emotional content that written words
lack.
3. The pseudoanonymity of Usenet also encourages some to behave
moreaggressively than they would in actual conversation. Taken to theexteme,
this results in that phenomenon known as the Usenet "troll":someone who
purposely tries to create havoc in newsgroups throughpersonal attacks and
ridicule. Short of that, one might still find thatthe posts of a certain
individual annoy or disturb. In such cases, onecan always employ the filters
that virtually all newsreaders areequipped with to filter out posts by certain
individuals or regardingcertain subjects. The details of how to do that vary
according tonewsreader software, but tutorials exist on the Web for
employingfilters in all the popular newsreaders.
4. Most of us who frequent this newsgroup do so out of a sincere desireto
discuss and learn more about wine. Part of this aspect of the groupis that
people routinely question or correct mistakes made by others.To some, this may
be "nitpicking," but such a definition is necessarilyin the mind of the
beholder. After three years of reading posts here, Iknow that such correction
is rarely if ever offered in anything but ahelpful spirit. However, if being
corrected bothers you, you shouldtake care to check your facts *before* posting
to reduce the probabilityof being in error -- because erroneous statements will
almost invariablybe corrected here.In summary, this group is fantastic resource
for learning about allthings wine-related. There will be times when a
particular post mayupset you, but free speech in this forum is encouraged.
However, wemust all strive to give others the benefit of the doubt and to avoid
asmuch as possible taking any comments made here too personally. As a sage
once remarked, "relax, it's only Usenet!" ;-)HTHMark Lipton"

Mark, hope it's OK that I quoted you

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 06-10-2003, 04:45 PM
dick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Courtesy, once again

Well, I had no idea what a emoticon was until now. I searched on Google and
found this.

Happy person
Sad person
:-) Happy person with a nose
:-( Sad person with a nose
:---( Person who is sad because he or she has a large nose
Person who is sad because he or she has a large fish for a nose
:-D Person laughing
:-D* Person laughing so hard that he or she does not notice that a
5-legged spider is hanging from his or her lip
:-| Person unsure of which long-distance company to choose
8-O-(&) Person just realizing that he or she has a tapeworm

;-) Person winking
.-) Person who can still smile despite losing an eyeball
:-0WW Person vomiting a series of Slim Jims
:-Q Person who just had cybersex and is now enjoying a post-coital
cybercigarette
:-Q -... Person who was enjoying a post-coital cigarette until he

suddenly noticed, to his alarm, that there is some kind of discharge
dribbling from his cybermember
:-{8 Person who is unhappy with the results of her breast-enlargement
surgery
:V:-| Person who cannot figure out why nobody wants to talk to him or
her, little suspecting that there is an alligator on his or her head
~oE]:-| Fisherperson heading for market with a basket on his or her
head containing a three-legged octopus that is giving off smell rays
:-[ -{9 Person who is none too pleased to be giving birth to a

squirrel

"Dale Williams" wrote in message
...
As one of the resident self-appointed AFW busybodies, I feel once again
compelled to make a post re courtesy. In doing so, I'm not trying to point
fingers, nor am I trying to sidestep my own responsibility in this latest
donnybrook. It's just good to step back sometimes and remember some

general
guidelines. A lot of this is distilled from earlier posts, so might not

apply
to recent discussions. But still, IMHO, worth remembering.

1) Personally, I find it less than helpful to make generalizations about

people
based on where they live, what they do outside wine, etc. And don't be too

sure
you know someone's nationality or residence- at least 3 assumptions made
recently were incorrect (to the best of my knowledge).
2) Let's try to cut the personal comments, OK? If you don't like someone,
filter their posts.
3) Try to avoid stating opinions as certainties. The use of terms like "in

my
opinion" (IMO, IMHO, IMNSVHO, etc.) add nuance to statements which might
otherwise irritate or offend.
4) If you're being funny or teasing, use emoticons. If someone uses a

smile or
wink emoticon, take a breath before you get offended by their words!
5) Please try to not relive old arguments.
6)Try to be precise if you can. But if someone isn't, correct only if

there's a
real possibilty of confusion, or if you feel it can contribute to the

general
readership's wine knowledge.
7)This is Usenet , a tool for discussion. Don't expect to post something

w/o
possibility of someone refuting it.
8) No one is superior (In My Humble Opinion) based on either the

simplicity or
elegance of what they eat or drink. Isn't this group big enough for

someone to
have Shiraz with BBQed chicken and another to have rack of lamb with a

fine
Pauillac? Does it somehow offend you to read about a meal you wouldn't eat
yourself?
9)New Folks: you're here to learn, right? So if someone who has been

serious
about wine for many years corrects you, learn from it, don't get your

feelings
hurt.
10) Old folks (speaking from perspective of how long you've been on AFW ,

you
can be new at 66 or old at 26 in my view): remember you were new (to wine

and
AFW) at some point, too. Correct if need be, but let's try to do so

graciously.

11) Newbies: we welcome your participation (this is speaking as someone

who has
participated for a few years, I'm neither an old-timer or a newbie). But

as in
ANY social situation, whether on or off line, it is wisest not to attack a
respected member of a community while a newbie, it really won't win you

any
points.

So there. I'm sure I've offended a few people, including some I regard as
"friends" (in the newsgroup sense). But please try to take these as

general
thoughts, not accusations or fingerpointing. And as I said, I'm aware that

I
was a participant in the Venice discussion, no better than many others.

Please do not respond with posts about " well poster X broke number 3

before I
broke number 2", or even worse "the (insert Europeans or Americans)

ignored
number 6". Let's try to move forward with a modicum of grace, ok?

Dale
PS:I'll add an excellent post Mark Lipton wrote a while ago (bad word wrap

edit
my fault):
"Over the past few days, there has been a mini-spate of people

takingexception
to the posts of others in this group. As I noted in anotherpost, from my
perspective this group has operated with a minimal amountof interpersonal
friction (for the most part) since I first started reading it in 1999. I

think
I speak for everyone here when I say thatwe all want to *encourage* others

to
post freely and without fear of"reprisal," so I now offer some advice for
negotiating this newsgroupwith a minimum of Strurm und Drang:
1. Please keep in mind that many of the contributors to alt.food.winedo

not
speak English as their first language. Their comments may lacksome of the
nuances of native Anglophones' and consequently appear harshor rude where

in
fact no such intention exists.
2. Internet-based communication is treated by most people as

informal(like
spoken communication) despite the fact that it's written and solacks the
inflection of spoken communication -- this too can lead tomistaken

impressions
of the writer's intent. This is one reason why"smilies" and other

emoticons
have been embraced on Usenet. However,not all use them when they should,

so we
must also take all comments onUsenet with a thick skin and open mind, as

we are
forced to read intothose written words the emotional content that written

words
lack.
3. The pseudoanonymity of Usenet also encourages some to behave
moreaggressively than they would in actual conversation. Taken to

theexteme,
this results in that phenomenon known as the Usenet "troll":someone who
purposely tries to create havoc in newsgroups throughpersonal attacks and
ridicule. Short of that, one might still find thatthe posts of a certain
individual annoy or disturb. In such cases, onecan always employ the

filters
that virtually all newsreaders areequipped with to filter out posts by

certain
individuals or regardingcertain subjects. The details of how to do that

vary
according tonewsreader software, but tutorials exist on the Web for
employingfilters in all the popular newsreaders.
4. Most of us who frequent this newsgroup do so out of a sincere desireto
discuss and learn more about wine. Part of this aspect of the groupis

that
people routinely question or correct mistakes made by others.To some, this

may
be "nitpicking," but such a definition is necessarilyin the mind of the
beholder. After three years of reading posts here, Iknow that such

correction
is rarely if ever offered in anything but ahelpful spirit. However, if

being
corrected bothers you, you shouldtake care to check your facts *before*

posting
to reduce the probabilityof being in error -- because erroneous statements

will
almost invariablybe corrected here.In summary, this group is fantastic

resource
for learning about allthings wine-related. There will be times when a
particular post mayupset you, but free speech in this forum is encouraged.
However, wemust all strive to give others the benefit of the doubt and to

avoid
asmuch as possible taking any comments made here too personally. As a

sage
once remarked, "relax, it's only Usenet!" ;-)HTHMark Lipton"

Mark, hope it's OK that I quoted you

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply





  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 06-10-2003, 08:34 PM
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default Courtesy, once again

"dick" wrote:

Well, I had no idea what a emoticon was until now. I searched
on Google and found this.

[...]

;-) Person winking


That's by far the most important one. If I get my English right
(please correct me if I'm wrong) there is also a "tongue in cheak"
notion associated with this emoticon.

M.
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 06-10-2003, 10:08 PM
Larry
 
Posts: n/a
Default Courtesy, once again






Happy person
Sad person
:-) Happy person with a nose
:-( Sad person with a nose
:---( Person who is sad because he or she has a large nose
Person who is sad because he or she has a large fish for a nose
:-D Person laughing
:-D* Person laughing so hard that he or she does not notice that a
5-legged spider is hanging from his or her lip
:-| Person unsure of which long-distance company to choose
8-O-(&) Person just realizing that he or she has a tapeworm

;-) Person winking
.-) Person who can still smile despite losing an eyeball
:-0WW Person vomiting a series of Slim Jims
:-Q Person who just had cybersex and is now enjoying a post-coital
cybercigarette
:-Q -... Person who was enjoying a post-coital cigarette until he

suddenly noticed, to his alarm, that there is some kind of discharge
dribbling from his cybermember
:-{8 Person who is unhappy with the results of her breast-enlargement
surgery
:V:-| Person who cannot figure out why nobody wants to talk to him or
her, little suspecting that there is an alligator on his or her head
~oE]:-| Fisherperson heading for market with a basket on his or her
head containing a three-legged octopus that is giving off smell rays
:-[ -{9 Person who is none too pleased to be giving birth to a

squirrel



Thanks a lot Dick!

Now I'm going to have to finally get my upper case q fixed.

D*

Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 06-10-2003, 11:20 PM
dick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Courtesy, once again

Hey, thats DICK to you.

Glad to locate what an emoticon was in my case. I thought people were
having issues with their punctuation.


"Larry" wrote in message
...





Happy person
Sad person
:-) Happy person with a nose
:-( Sad person with a nose
:---( Person who is sad because he or she has a large nose
Person who is sad because he or she has a large fish for a nose
:-D Person laughing
:-D* Person laughing so hard that he or she does not notice that a
5-legged spider is hanging from his or her lip
:-| Person unsure of which long-distance company to choose
8-O-(&) Person just realizing that he or she has a tapeworm

;-) Person winking
.-) Person who can still smile despite losing an eyeball
:-0WW Person vomiting a series of Slim Jims
:-Q Person who just had cybersex and is now enjoying a post-coital
cybercigarette
:-Q -... Person who was enjoying a post-coital cigarette until he

suddenly noticed, to his alarm, that there is some kind of discharge
dribbling from his cybermember
:-{8 Person who is unhappy with the results of her

breast-enlargement
surgery
:V:-| Person who cannot figure out why nobody wants to talk to him

or
her, little suspecting that there is an alligator on his or her head
~oE]:-| Fisherperson heading for market with a basket on his or

her
head containing a three-legged octopus that is giving off smell rays
:-[ -{9 Person who is none too pleased to be giving birth to a

squirrel



Thanks a lot Dick!

Now I'm going to have to finally get my upper case q fixed.

D*

Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada





  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 06-10-2003, 11:38 PM
Larry
 
Posts: n/a
Default Courtesy, once again

Sorry I missed the comma DICK.

Post shoulda read. Thanks a lot, Dick!
Oh darn maybe it should have read; DICK, thanks a lot!

Well keep the postings on a lighter bodied note won't we.......Dick?


Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:20:56 GMT, "dick" wrote:

Hey, thats DICK to you.

Glad to locate what an emoticon was in my case. I thought people were
having issues with their punctuation.


Thanks a lot Dick!

Now I'm going to have to finally get my upper case q fixed.

D*

Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada



  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 07-10-2003, 01:28 AM
dick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Courtesy, once again

Yeah.

dick


"Larry" wrote in message
...
Sorry I missed the comma DICK.

Post shoulda read. Thanks a lot, Dick!
Oh darn maybe it should have read; DICK, thanks a lot!

Well keep the postings on a lighter bodied note won't we.......Dick?


Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:20:56 GMT, "dick" wrote:

Hey, thats DICK to you.

Glad to locate what an emoticon was in my case. I thought people were
having issues with their punctuation.


Thanks a lot Dick!

Now I'm going to have to finally get my upper case q fixed.

D*

Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada





  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 07-10-2003, 05:49 AM
Mark Lipton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Courtesy, once again



Dale Williams wrote:

major SNIP

Mark, hope it's OK that I quoted you


Of course, Dale. Even if not, Usenet is a public forum so my words are in the
public domain now. I just hope that people reading them realize that I *do* know
what the space bar is used for, ;-)

Mark Lipton



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