The wine was Bonnes-Mares 1990, Comte de Vogue, bottle # 00624. There
were no cork issues, and the fill was quite high. The wine is still
rather full colored. It is now mature, but it might improve a bit more
and likely will last many more years. The bouquet is quite intense
with cherries, a hint of strawberries, and something floral coming to
mind. Tannins are resolved. There is plenty of fruit in the taste, and
the acid level is correct. The finish is fairly long. While perhaps
not the red Burgundy of the vintage for 1990, it is not very far
behind the very best. Unfortunately I only bought this one bottle
shortly after it was released. I do have a few bottles of de Vogue's
1990 Musigny VV, and hopefully it will be a bit better than this wine,
but one could hardly complain much if it is not and is only just as
good as the Bonnes Mares.

On Nov 15, 8:59*pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> The wine was Bonnes-Mares 1990, Comte de Vogue, bottle # 00624. There
> were no cork issues, and the fill was quite high. *The wine is still
> rather full colored. It is now mature, but it might improve a bit more
> and likely will last many more years. The bouquet is quite intense
> with cherries, a hint of strawberries, and something floral coming to
> mind. Tannins are resolved. There is plenty of fruit in the taste, and
> the acid level is correct. The finish is fairly long. While perhaps
> not the red Burgundy of the vintage for 1990, it is not very far
> behind the very best. Unfortunately I only bought this one bottle
> shortly after it was released. I do have a few bottles of de Vogue's
> 1990 Musigny VV, and hopefully it will be a bit better than this wine,
> but one could hardly complain much if it is not and is only just as
> good as the Bonnes Mares.

I hope for your sake that the Musigny rocks! But in interest of full
disclosure,it seems to be the one of the most heralded underachievers
of the last 20 years. For a VERY expensive wine, lots of people have
found it...lacking. I hope that your bottles show better. I look
forward to your notes (I always do, actually!)

On Nov 15, 9:17*pm, DaleW > wrote:
> On Nov 15, 8:59*pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
> > The wine was Bonnes-Mares 1990, Comte de Vogue, bottle # 00624. There
> > were no cork issues, and the fill was quite high. *The wine is still
> > rather full colored. It is now mature, but it might improve a bit more
> > and likely will last many more years. The bouquet is quite intense
> > with cherries, a hint of strawberries, and something floral coming to
> > mind. Tannins are resolved. There is plenty of fruit in the taste, and
> > the acid level is correct. The finish is fairly long. While perhaps
> > not the red Burgundy of the vintage for 1990, it is not very far
> > behind the very best. Unfortunately I only bought this one bottle
> > shortly after it was released. I do have a few bottles of de Vogue's
> > 1990 Musigny VV, and hopefully it will be a bit better than this wine,
> > but one could hardly complain much if it is not and is only just as
> > good as the Bonnes Mares.
>
> I hope for your sake that the Musigny rocks! But in interest of full
> disclosure,it seems to be the one of the most heralded underachievers
> of the last 20 years. For a VERY expensive wine, lots of people have
> found it...lacking. I hope that your bottles show better. I look
> forward to your notes (I always do, actually!)

I have not seen any recent tasting notes for de Vogue's 1990 Musigny.
However Clive Coates, as mentioned in his book Cote d'Or, tasted it
four times early on and he says all of his notes agree that this is
one of the wines of the vintage and he gives it his rather rare 20.0
point out of 20 points rating. He suggests drinking from 2000-2030. Of
course this does not prove that the wine will have developed as well
as expected - only tasting of the mature wine will tell. I agree that
some Musigny from this estate has not been up to what is expected for
the vintage in some years. For example, La Tache seems to be more
reliable, but then it costs much more than even the de Vogue Musigny.
Of course in the early 1990's neither of the mentioned wines was as
extremely expensive as popular recent vintages have been.

On Nov 16, 12:53�am, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> On Nov 15, 9:17�pm, DaleW > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 15, 8:59�pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
> > > The wine was Bonnes-Mares 1990, Comte de Vogue, bottle # 00624. There
> > > were no cork issues, and the fill was quite high. �The wine is still
> > > rather full colored. It is now mature, but it might improve a bit more
> > > and likely will last many more years. The bouquet is quite intense
> > > with cherries, a hint of strawberries, and something floral coming to
> > > mind. Tannins are resolved. There is plenty of fruit in the taste, and
> > > the acid level is correct. The finish is fairly long. While perhaps
> > > not the red Burgundy of the vintage for 1990, it is not very far
> > > behind the very best. Unfortunately I only bought this one bottle
> > > shortly after it was released. I do have a few bottles of de Vogue's
> > > 1990 Musigny VV, and hopefully it will be a bit better than this wine,
> > > but one could hardly complain much if it is not and is only just as
> > > good as the Bonnes Mares.
>
> > I hope for your sake that the Musigny rocks! But in interest of full
> > disclosure,it seems to be the one of the most heralded underachievers
> > of the last 20 years. For a VERY expensive wine, lots of people have
> > found it...lacking. I hope that your bottles show better. I look
> > forward to your notes (I always do, actually!)
>
> I have not seen any recent tasting notes for de Vogue's 1990 Musigny.
> However Clive Coates, as mentioned in his book Cote d'Or, tasted it
> four times early on and he says all of his notes agree that this is
> one of the wines of the vintage and he gives it his rather rare 20.0
> point out of 20 points rating. He suggests drinking from 2000-2030. Of
> course this does not prove that the wine will have developed as well
> as expected - only tasting of the mature wine will tell. I agree that
> some Musigny from this estate has not been up to what is expected for
> the vintage in some years. For example, La Tache seems to be more
> reliable, but then it costs much more than even the de Vogue Musigny.
> Of course in the early 1990's neither of the mentioned wines was as
> extremely expensive as popular recent vintages have been.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not sure I've ever had a Vogue that has lived up to expectations but
to e fair, I don't think I've ever had one that is fully mature and
I've had them up to twenty years old.

"Bi!!" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 16, 12:53?am, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> On Nov 15, 9:17?pm, DaleW > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 15, 8:59?pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
> > > The wine was Bonnes-Mares 1990, Comte de Vogue, bottle # 00624. There
> > > were no cork issues, and the fill was quite high. ?The wine is still
> > > rather full colored. It is now mature, but it might improve a bit more
> > > and likely will last many more years. The bouquet is quite intense
> > > with cherries, a hint of strawberries, and something floral coming to
> > > mind. Tannins are resolved. There is plenty of fruit in the taste, and
> > > the acid level is correct. The finish is fairly long. While perhaps
> > > not the red Burgundy of the vintage for 1990, it is not very far
> > > behind the very best. Unfortunately I only bought this one bottle
> > > shortly after it was released. I do have a few bottles of de Vogue's
> > > 1990 Musigny VV, and hopefully it will be a bit better than this wine,
> > > but one could hardly complain much if it is not and is only just as
> > > good as the Bonnes Mares.
>
> > I hope for your sake that the Musigny rocks! But in interest of full
> > disclosure,it seems to be the one of the most heralded underachievers
> > of the last 20 years. For a VERY expensive wine, lots of people have
> > found it...lacking. I hope that your bottles show better. I look
> > forward to your notes (I always do, actually!)
>
> I have not seen any recent tasting notes for de Vogue's 1990 Musigny.
> However Clive Coates, as mentioned in his book Cote d'Or, tasted it
> four times early on and he says all of his notes agree that this is
> one of the wines of the vintage and he gives it his rather rare 20.0
> point out of 20 points rating. He suggests drinking from 2000-2030. Of
> course this does not prove that the wine will have developed as well
> as expected - only tasting of the mature wine will tell. I agree that
> some Musigny from this estate has not been up to what is expected for
> the vintage in some years. For example, La Tache seems to be more
> reliable, but then it costs much more than even the de Vogue Musigny.
> Of course in the early 1990's neither of the mentioned wines was as
> extremely expensive as popular recent vintages have been.- Hide quoted
> text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not sure I've ever had a Vogue that has lived up to expectations but
to e fair, I don't think I've ever had one that is fully mature and
I've had them up to twenty years old.


Back in 1992, I bought six bottles of Bonnes Mares by de Vogüe. The were as
good as red Burgundy gets, especially between 1997 and 2001. The last two
bottles tasted in 2004 and 2006, while being enjoyable, showed some signs of
fading.

As I am just sitting at this keyboard, can I just ask the Burgundy geeks
among you if your cellars are absolutely perfect (temperature and
humidity-wise)?
My own cellar has less than ideal temperature variations (14 °C in winter,
19 ° to 20° in summer) and, more often than not, I am disappointed by the
evolution of Burgundies, whereas there is almost never a problem with
Bordeaux. Any comments?

Thanks

Yves

Yves wrote:

> As I am just sitting at this keyboard, can I just ask the Burgundy geeks
> among you if your cellars are absolutely perfect (temperature and
> humidity-wise)?
> My own cellar has less than ideal temperature variations (14 °C in winter,
> 19 ° to 20° in summer) and, more often than not, I am disappointed by the
> evolution of Burgundies, whereas there is almost never a problem with
> Bordeaux. Any comments?

What is perfect, asked jesting Pilate? Is a constant 10°C considered
more perfect than what you've got and, if so, why? I do concede that
there's some anecdotal evidence that cooler cellar temps (hence slower
evolution) lead to greater complexity once/if the wine reaches maturity,
but it hardly seems like a consensus opinion. That being said, my
cellar is pretty much like yours, though in very cold winters, I've seen
temps as low as 5°C.

Regarding your question: there are several reasons why Burgundy may
offer greater disappointment than Bordeaux. One is that less robust
wines seem (anecdotally, again) to be more sensitive to heat damage than
bigger, more robust wines. That heat damage could have occurred before
it ever reached your cellar, or there might be subtle heat damage
resulting from the temperature oscillations and higher summer
temperatures in your cellar. Finally, Pinot Noir is a more finicky
grape. Most everyone I know experiences more disappointment with
Burgundy than with other areas, at least until recently.

Apropos the question of whether your cellar temperature variations lead
to subtle heat damage: stay tuned to this "channel," as on 4/1/2010 Dale
Williams and I will conclude The Great April Fools' Day Heat Damage
Trial. He and I, along with several others, have placed several bottles
of wine in two different locations, one in a temperature-controlled
cellar and the other in an area without temperature control (in my case,
a shelf in a room adjoining our bedroom). We'll compare in head-to-head
tastings whether there's any evidence of heat damage in the latter
wines. All results will be published here in alt.food.wine.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

On Nov 16, 6:18*am, "Bi!!" > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 12:53 am, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 15, 9:17 pm, DaleW > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 15, 8:59 pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
> > > > The wine was Bonnes-Mares 1990, Comte de Vogue, bottle # 00624. There
> > > > were no cork issues, and the fill was quite high. The wine is still
> > > > rather full colored. It is now mature, but it might improve a bit more
> > > > and likely will last many more years. The bouquet is quite intense
> > > > with cherries, a hint of strawberries, and something floral coming to
> > > > mind. Tannins are resolved. There is plenty of fruit in the taste, and
> > > > the acid level is correct. The finish is fairly long. While perhaps
> > > > not the red Burgundy of the vintage for 1990, it is not very far
> > > > behind the very best. Unfortunately I only bought this one bottle
> > > > shortly after it was released. I do have a few bottles of de Vogue's
> > > > 1990 Musigny VV, and hopefully it will be a bit better than this wine,
> > > > but one could hardly complain much if it is not and is only just as
> > > > good as the Bonnes Mares.
>
> > > I hope for your sake that the Musigny rocks! But in interest of full
> > > disclosure,it seems to be the one of the most heralded underachievers
> > > of the last 20 years. For a VERY expensive wine, lots of people have
> > > found it...lacking. I hope that your bottles show better. I look
> > > forward to your notes (I always do, actually!)
>
> > I have not seen any recent tasting notes for de Vogue's 1990 Musigny.
> > However Clive Coates, as mentioned in his book Cote d'Or, tasted it
> > four times early on and he says all of his notes agree that this is
> > one of the wines of the vintage and he gives it his rather rare 20.0
> > point out of 20 points rating. He suggests drinking from 2000-2030. Of
> > course this does not prove that the wine will have developed as well
> > as expected - only tasting of the mature wine will tell. I agree that
> > some Musigny from this estate has not been up to what is expected for
> > the vintage in some years. For example, La Tache seems to be more
> > reliable, but then it costs much more than even the de Vogue Musigny.
> > Of course in the early 1990's neither of the mentioned wines was as
> > extremely expensive as popular recent vintages have been.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Not sure I've ever had a Vogue that has lived up to expectations but
> to e fair, I don't think I've ever had one that is fully mature and
> I've had them up to twenty years old.

I never collected much Musigny. I have bought only 4 red Musigny wines
from Vogue including Musigny1949, Musigny VV 1949, Musigny VV 1988,
and Musigny VV1990. I also bought the Musigny Blanc1979. In contrast I
still have 23 different examples of the red wines from DRC from 1959
through 1990.

The 1949 Vogue Musigny is of course a legend and the plain (not VV)
was still very good several years ago. I have yet to open my single
bottle of the 1949 VV. The 1988, as was many other 88s, was a bit
tough and tannic when young and then went into a dumb phase. It
started to open up several years ago. I can not decide if it is likely
to improve much more or not. I have not tasted the 1990 Vogue Musigny
VV yet. If you store top red Burgundy properly, you may want to open a
bottle early to get an idea of how it may develop, but unless you have
tasted a huge number of wines at different ages, this can be very
difficult. For the likes of La Tache, Musigny, and Chambertin, I
consider the wine a failure if it is at the best before about 20 years
for the top years. I find very few top Burgundy wines very interesting
during their often long dumb period. I seldom open one much under 20
years old. Mme. Leroy has long proved that even some of the less
famous Burgundy wines can last and improve a very long time if the
grapes are grown with the best care and the wine is properly made and
properly aged. I believe she makes a Musigny, but to get a mature
example of it(or a young example for that matter) can cost even much
more than de Vogue.

I have not bought any red Burgundy or Bordeaux since the 1990 vintage.
One reason is that I want to be able to drink them at peak during my
lifetime. Another reason is the often extreme increase in price since
the 1990 came to market.. Also I fear that some estates have lowered
the peak quality of their wine by making it to be more drinkable when
young.

On Nov 16, 9:56�am, "Yves" > wrote:
> "Bi!!" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Nov 16, 12:53?am, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 15, 9:17?pm, DaleW > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 15, 8:59?pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
> > > > The wine was Bonnes-Mares 1990, Comte de Vogue, bottle # 00624. There
> > > > were no cork issues, and the fill was quite high. ?The wine is still
> > > > rather full colored. It is now mature, but it might improve a bit more
> > > > and likely will last many more years. The bouquet is quite intense
> > > > with cherries, a hint of strawberries, and something floral coming to
> > > > mind. Tannins are resolved. There is plenty of fruit in the taste, and
> > > > the acid level is correct. The finish is fairly long. While perhaps
> > > > not the red Burgundy of the vintage for 1990, it is not very far
> > > > behind the very best. Unfortunately I only bought this one bottle
> > > > shortly after it was released. I do have a few bottles of de Vogue's
> > > > 1990 Musigny VV, and hopefully it will be a bit better than this wine,
> > > > but one could hardly complain much if it is not and is only just as
> > > > good as the Bonnes Mares.
>
> > > I hope for your sake that the Musigny rocks! But in interest of full
> > > disclosure,it seems to be the one of the most heralded underachievers
> > > of the last 20 years. For a VERY expensive wine, lots of people have
> > > found it...lacking. I hope that your bottles show better. I look
> > > forward to your notes (I always do, actually!)
>
> > I have not seen any recent tasting notes for de Vogue's 1990 Musigny.
> > However Clive Coates, as mentioned in his book Cote d'Or, tasted it
> > four times early on and he says all of his notes agree that this is
> > one of the wines of the vintage and he gives it his rather rare 20.0
> > point out of 20 points rating. He suggests drinking from 2000-2030. Of
> > course this does not prove that the wine will have developed as well
> > as expected - only tasting of the mature wine will tell. I agree that
> > some Musigny from this estate has not been up to what is expected for
> > the vintage in some years. For example, La Tache seems to be more
> > reliable, but then it costs much more than even the de Vogue Musigny.
> > Of course in the early 1990's neither of the mentioned wines was as
> > extremely expensive as popular recent vintages have been.- Hide quoted
> > text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Not sure I've ever had a Vogue that has lived up to expectations but
> to e fair, I don't think I've ever had one that is fully mature and
> I've had them up to twenty years old.
>
> Back in 1992, I bought six bottles of Bonnes Mares by de Vog�e. The were as
> good as red Burgundy gets, especially between 1997 and 2001. The last two
> bottles tasted in 2004 and 2006, while being enjoyable, showed some signs of
> fading.
>
> As I am just sitting at this keyboard, can I just ask the Burgundy geeks
> among you if your cellars are absolutely perfect (temperature and
> humidity-wise)?
> My own cellar has less than ideal temperature variations (14 �C in winter,
> 19 � to 20� in summer) and, more often than not, I am disappointed by the
> evolution of Burgundies, whereas there is almost never a problem with
> Bordeaux. Any comments?
>
> Thanks
>
> Yves- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Mine is 55F/ 70%RH year around in a temp and humidity controlled
cellar.

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Yves wrote:
>
>> As I am just sitting at this keyboard, can I just ask the Burgundy geeks
>> among you if your cellars are absolutely perfect (temperature and
>> humidity-wise)?
>> My own cellar has less than ideal temperature variations (14 °C in
>> winter,
>> 19 ° to 20° in summer) and, more often than not, I am disappointed by the
>> evolution of Burgundies, whereas there is almost never a problem with
>> Bordeaux. Any comments?
>
> What is perfect, asked jesting Pilate? Is a constant 10°C considered
> more perfect than what you've got and, if so, why? I do concede that
> there's some anecdotal evidence that cooler cellar temps (hence slower
> evolution) lead to greater complexity once/if the wine reaches maturity,
> but it hardly seems like a consensus opinion. That being said, my
> cellar is pretty much like yours, though in very cold winters, I've seen
> temps as low as 5°C.
>
> Regarding your question: there are several reasons why Burgundy may
> offer greater disappointment than Bordeaux. One is that less robust
> wines seem (anecdotally, again) to be more sensitive to heat damage than
> bigger, more robust wines. That heat damage could have occurred before
> it ever reached your cellar, or there might be subtle heat damage
> resulting from the temperature oscillations and higher summer
> temperatures in your cellar. Finally, Pinot Noir is a more finicky
> grape. Most everyone I know experiences more disappointment with
> Burgundy than with other areas, at least until recently.
>
> Apropos the question of whether your cellar temperature variations lead
> to subtle heat damage: stay tuned to this "channel," as on 4/1/2010 Dale
> Williams and I will conclude The Great April Fools' Day Heat Damage
> Trial. He and I, along with several others, have placed several bottles
> of wine in two different locations, one in a temperature-controlled
> cellar and the other in an area without temperature control (in my case,
> a shelf in a room adjoining our bedroom). We'll compare in head-to-head
> tastings whether there's any evidence of heat damage in the latter
> wines. All results will be published here in alt.food.wine.
>
> Mark Lipton
>
> --
> alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

Mark,

I am definitely looking forward for the Glühwein versus Eiswein encounter
next April! By the way, I vaguely remember that Bouchard from Beaune had
performed some kind of test by handing over half a dozen of a Beaune 1er crû
to various journalists who were to store the wines in their own cellars (or
other storage facilities) in order to have a comparative tasting about 8
years later.

The result was that the differences between "perfect" conditions and cellars
with high humidity and some temperature variations over the seasons were
very limited.

I asked the question initially because I am intrigued by the fact that
ageing Bordeaux (and also top Rhône, Duero and most Italian reds) is almost
always a safe bet, whereas Burgundy seems to be predictably unpredictable.

Regards,

Yves
>