Betsy was driving her niece to an appointment, so I was assigned
Friday night dinner. I dared to pick up duck legs (Betsy is the Duck
Queen, and I seldom venture into her territory). Usually duck means
Burgundy or other PN in our house, but I was feeling like Bordeaux, so
seasoned with rosemary and garlic for better compatability. I added
some mushrooms to roast for the last bit, and served with egg noodles,
broccolini, and salad. Wine was my last bottle of the 1995 Corbin
Michotte (St Emilion). Lighter styled St-Em, pretty red fruit with
earth and cigarbox, a bit of dried green herbs on the finish. Maybe a
tad short, but a pleasant mature Right Banker that I doubt will get
any better. B+

Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.

In message .com>
"DaleW" > wrote:

> Betsy was driving her niece to an appointment, so I was assigned
> Friday night dinner. I dared to pick up duck legs (Betsy is the Duck
> Queen, and I seldom venture into her territory). Usually duck means
> Burgundy or other PN in our house, but I was feeling like Bordeaux, so
> seasoned with rosemary and garlic for better compatability. I added
> some mushrooms to roast for the last bit, and served with egg noodles,
> broccolini, and salad. Wine was my last bottle of the 1995 Corbin
> Michotte (St Emilion). Lighter styled St-Em, pretty red fruit with
> earth and cigarbox, a bit of dried green herbs on the finish. Maybe a
> tad short, but a pleasant mature Right Banker that I doubt will get
> any better. B+
>


I'm glad you have found the pleasures of duck and Saint-Emilion - I
normally get given everything except the quack when I go.

When you say the Corbin Michotte was "lighter styled", may I ask with
what you are comparing it? Maybe the answer is in your use of
"styled". If you are comparing with "Parkerised" wines I would agree,
but when compared with its peers - traditionally made Saint-Emilions -
I must say that I have never found it amongst the lighter wines -
rather the reverse as befits its heritage as part of an estate once
held by the Black Prince!

Tim Hartley

On Feb 11, 5:49�am, Timothy Hartley
> wrote:
> In message .com>
> * * * * * "DaleW" > wrote:
>
> > Betsy was driving her niece to an appointment, so I was assigned
> > Friday night dinner. I dared to pick up duck legs (Betsy is the Duck
> > Queen, and I seldom venture into her territory). Usually duck means
> > Burgundy or other PN in our house, but I was feeling like Bordeaux, so
> > seasoned with rosemary and garlic for better compatability. I added
> > some mushrooms to roast for the last bit, and served with egg noodles,
> > broccolini, and salad. Wine was my last bottle of the 1995 Corbin
> > Michotte (St Emilion). Lighter styled St-Em, pretty red fruit with
> > earth and cigarbox, a bit of dried green herbs on the finish. Maybe a
> > tad short, but a pleasant mature Right Banker *that I doubt will get
> > any better. B+
>
> I'm glad you have found the pleasures of duck and Saint-Emilion - I
> normally get given everything except the quack when I go.
>
> When you say the Corbin Michotte was "lighter styled", may I ask with
> what you are comparing it? *Maybe the answer is in your use of
> "styled". If you are comparing with "Parkerised" wines I would agree,
> but when compared with its peers - traditionally made Saint-Emilions -
> I must say that I have never found it amongst the lighter wines -
> rather the reverse as befits its heritage as part of an estate once
> held by the Black Prince!
>
> Tim Hartley

Tim,
I was just comparing it within the realms of St-E's that I typically
taste, which is for the most part Grand Cru Classes (and at least 50%
probably 1erGCC).. Unlike the UK, there's not a strong tradition in US
of drinking regular St. Emilion Grand Cru (or even less a straight St-
Emilion, which we virtually never see). What few non-classed St. Em GC
we see seem to usually be chosen for how cheap the importer can get
them, rather than any intrinsic worth. I found the Corbin-Michotte
lighter than other '95s I've had in last few years, but those
(Angelus, Figeac, Soutard) aren't neccessarily representative.

As to style, I actually don't think of Corbin-Michotte (based only on
'95, '98, '99) as especially traditional, rather as one of the mid-
moderns. That's not based on any knowledge of vineyard or cellar
practices, just my impression from tasting.

Thinking about this, here's my rough division of St Emilions.
Admittedly based on small samples in some cases.

Very traditional:
Soutard
Figeac
Magdelaine
L'Arrossee

Fairly Traditional
Cheval Blanc
Corbin
Beausejour-Becot
La Gaffeliere
Canon

Middle of the Road
Angelus
Pavie-Maquin
Corbin-Michotte
Canon-la-Gaffeliere
Trottevieille

Modern
Barde-Haut
Grand Corbin Despagne
Faugeres
Beausejour-Duffau
Troplong Mondot
Quinault l'enclos
Ausone (solely based on one taste of the '98, not in my normal budget)

Super-Modern
Pavie
Pavie-Decesse
Monbousquet
Peby Faugeres

Thanks for thoughtful reply.

In message .com>
"DaleW" > wrote:


> I was just comparing it within the realms of St-E's that I typically
> taste, which is for the most part Grand Cru Classes (and at least 50%
> probably 1erGCC).. Unlike the UK, there's not a strong tradition in US
> of drinking regular St. Emilion Grand Cru (or even less a straight St-
> Emilion, which we virtually never see). What few non-classed St. Em GC
> we see seem to usually be chosen for how cheap the importer can get
> them, rather than any intrinsic worth. I found the Corbin-Michotte
> lighter than other '95s I've had in last few years, but those
> (Angelus, Figeac, Soutard) aren't neccessarily representative.
>
> As to style, I actually don't think of Corbin-Michotte (based only on
> '95, '98, '99) as especially traditional, rather as one of the mid-
> moderns. That's not based on any knowledge of vineyard or cellar
> practices, just my impression from tasting.
>
> Thinking about this, here's my rough division of St Emilions.
> Admittedly based on small samples in some cases.
>
> Very traditional:
> Soutard
> Figeac
> Magdelaine
> L'Arrossee
>
> Fairly Traditional
> Cheval Blanc
> Corbin
> Beausejour-Becot
> La Gaffeliere
> Canon
>
> Middle of the Road
> Angelus
> Pavie-Maquin
> Corbin-Michotte
> Canon-la-Gaffeliere
> Trottevieille
>
> Modern
> Barde-Haut
> Grand Corbin Despagne
> Faugeres
> Beausejour-Duffau
> Troplong Mondot
> Quinault l'enclos
> Ausone (solely based on one taste of the '98, not in my normal budget)
>
> Super-Modern
> Pavie
> Pavie-Decesse
> Monbousquet
> Peby Faugeres

> Thanks for thoughtful reply.
>
It's interesting how different people's perceptions of wine can be -
it is a very subjective thing. I would not have put Corbin Michotte in
the same bracket as the other four you mention, nor Ausone or Grand
Corbin Despagne in that bracket. Compared with some of the Grand Crus
Classes from the Cotes or the southern part of the plateau - for
example Fonplegade (at least under Moueix) I woud dtill no say it is
light. I do not find any of them so "modern" in style as you do, if by
modern you mean tending to maximum extraction and emphasis on fruit
above all else. Equally I would have put Quinault l'Enclos in your
final bracket. It may be because of our different expectations that
you found the Corbin Michotte "light" whereas I find depth and
complexity.
On a more general point I note your comments about Grand Cru
Saint-Emilion not finding its way to the US in general. That's a pity
bwcause there's some very good stuff among them but it is interesting
that those you mention that do find their way to you are all ones in
your "modern" or "super modern" lists - Monbousquet (you cannot yet
have had the promoted wine!, Pavie-Decesse, Faugeres and its special
cuve brother Peby Faugeres, Quinault l'Enclos,and Barde-Haut -
L'Arrossee being the exception.

Tim Hartley

Monbousquet

We can get this in Charlotte...at Costco no less.


"Timothy Hartley" > wrote in message
...
> In message .com>
> "DaleW" > wrote:
>
>
>> I was just comparing it within the realms of St-E's that I typically
>> taste, which is for the most part Grand Cru Classes (and at least 50%
>> probably 1erGCC).. Unlike the UK, there's not a strong tradition in US
>> of drinking regular St. Emilion Grand Cru (or even less a straight St-
>> Emilion, which we virtually never see). What few non-classed St. Em GC
>> we see seem to usually be chosen for how cheap the importer can get
>> them, rather than any intrinsic worth. I found the Corbin-Michotte
>> lighter than other '95s I've had in last few years, but those
>> (Angelus, Figeac, Soutard) aren't neccessarily representative.
>>
>> As to style, I actually don't think of Corbin-Michotte (based only on
>> '95, '98, '99) as especially traditional, rather as one of the mid-
>> moderns. That's not based on any knowledge of vineyard or cellar
>> practices, just my impression from tasting.
>>
>> Thinking about this, here's my rough division of St Emilions.
>> Admittedly based on small samples in some cases.
>>
>> Very traditional:
>> Soutard
>> Figeac
>> Magdelaine
>> L'Arrossee
>>
>> Fairly Traditional
>> Cheval Blanc
>> Corbin
>> Beausejour-Becot
>> La Gaffeliere
>> Canon
>>
>> Middle of the Road
>> Angelus
>> Pavie-Maquin
>> Corbin-Michotte
>> Canon-la-Gaffeliere
>> Trottevieille
>>
>> Modern
>> Barde-Haut
>> Grand Corbin Despagne
>> Faugeres
>> Beausejour-Duffau
>> Troplong Mondot
>> Quinault l'enclos
>> Ausone (solely based on one taste of the '98, not in my normal budget)
>>
>> Super-Modern
>> Pavie
>> Pavie-Decesse
>> Monbousquet
>> Peby Faugeres
>
>> Thanks for thoughtful reply.
>>
> It's interesting how different people's perceptions of wine can be -
> it is a very subjective thing. I would not have put Corbin Michotte in
> the same bracket as the other four you mention, nor Ausone or Grand
> Corbin Despagne in that bracket. Compared with some of the Grand Crus
> Classes from the Cotes or the southern part of the plateau - for
> example Fonplegade (at least under Moueix) I woud dtill no say it is
> light. I do not find any of them so "modern" in style as you do, if by
> modern you mean tending to maximum extraction and emphasis on fruit
> above all else. Equally I would have put Quinault l'Enclos in your
> final bracket. It may be because of our different expectations that
> you found the Corbin Michotte "light" whereas I find depth and
> complexity.
> On a more general point I note your comments about Grand Cru
> Saint-Emilion not finding its way to the US in general. That's a pity
> bwcause there's some very good stuff among them but it is interesting
> that those you mention that do find their way to you are all ones in
> your "modern" or "super modern" lists - Monbousquet (you cannot yet
> have had the promoted wine!, Pavie-Decesse, Faugeres and its special
> cuve brother Peby Faugeres, Quinault l'Enclos,and Barde-Haut -
> L'Arrossee being the exception.
>
> Tim Hartley

On Feb 12, 5:57�am, Timothy Hartley
> wrote:
> In message .com>
> * * * * * "DaleW" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I was just comparing it within the realms of St-E's that I typically
> > taste, which is for the most part Grand Cru Classes (and at least 50%
> > probably 1erGCC).. Unlike the UK, there's not a strong tradition in US
> > of drinking regular St. Emilion Grand Cru (or even less a straight St-
> > Emilion, which we virtually never see). What few non-classed St. Em GC
> > we see seem to usually be chosen for how cheap the importer can get
> > them, rather than any intrinsic worth. I found the Corbin-Michotte
> > lighter than other '95s I've had in last few years, but those
> > (Angelus, Figeac, Soutard) aren't neccessarily representative.
>
> > As to style, I actually don't think of Corbin-Michotte (based only on
> > '95, '98, '99) as especially traditional, rather as one of the mid-
> > moderns. That's not based on any knowledge of vineyard or cellar
> > practices, just my impression from tasting.
>
> > Thinking about this, here's my rough division of St Emilions.
> > Admittedly based on small samples in some cases.
>
> > Very traditional:
> > Soutard
> > Figeac
> > Magdelaine
> > L'Arrossee
>
> > Fairly Traditional
> > Cheval Blanc
> > Corbin
> > Beausejour-Becot
> > La Gaffeliere
> > Canon
>
> > Middle of the Road
> > Angelus
> > Pavie-Maquin
> > Corbin-Michotte
> > Canon-la-Gaffeliere
> > Trottevieille
>
> > Modern
> > Barde-Haut
> > Grand Corbin Despagne
> > Faugeres
> > Beausejour-Duffau
> > Troplong Mondot
> > Quinault l'enclos
> > Ausone (solely based on one taste of the '98, not in my normal budget)
>
> > Super-Modern
> > Pavie
> > Pavie-Decesse
> > Monbousquet
> > Peby Faugeres
> > Thanks for thoughtful reply.
>
> It's interesting how different people's perceptions of wine can be -
> it is a very subjective thing. I would not have put Corbin Michotte in
> the same bracket as the other four you mention, nor Ausone or Grand
> Corbin Despagne in that bracket. *Compared with some of the Grand Crus
> Classes from the Cotes or the southern part of the plateau - for
> example Fonplegade (at least under Moueix) I woud dtill no say it is
> light. I do not find any of them so "modern" in style as you do, if by
> modern you mean tending to maximum extraction and emphasis on fruit
> above all else. *Equally I would have put Quinault l'Enclos in your
> final bracket. It may be because of our different expectations that
> you found the Corbin Michotte "light" *whereas I find depth and
> complexity.
> On a more general point I note your comments about Grand Cru
> Saint-Emilion not finding its way to the US in general. *That's a pity
> bwcause there's some very good stuff among them but it is interesting
> that those you mention that do find their way to you are all ones in
> your "modern" or "super modern" lists - *Monbousquet (you cannot yet
> have had the promoted wine!, Pavie-Decesse, *Faugeres and its special
> cuve brother Peby Faugeres, Quinault l'Enclos,and Barde-Haut -
> L'Arrossee being the exception.
>
> Tim Hartley- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Tim,

Thanks for another thoughtful response.

First of all, you apparently think I used "light" as a perjorative. I
don't find lighter body and depth/complexity mutually exclusive.
I liked this wine, and my top all-time St Emilion experiences include
Figeacs and Magdelaines from moderate vintages that I wouldn't
characterize as big or full. Magdelaine is almost always "lighter-
styled" in my view, yet in no way lacking in either depth or
complexity.

As I said, these divisions are a bit off the cuff, and in some cases
based on small samples. Funnily I moved the Quinault from supermodern
to modern as I was doing, could easily have left it where it was. The
Ausone was based on one sample, but the wine since Rolland arrived
seems quite different from the austere Ausone of the past.

What constitutes modernism? I'd agree with fruit-emphasis and high
extraction, and add more apparent oak (whether by higher % of new or
toast) and "tannin management." Lots of factors affect this, use of
reverse osmosis, spinning cones, picking grapes at extremes of
ripeness, etc.

I'm not an idealogue for either side of the modernity debate (at least
in Bordeaux). My fave 1995 St. Emilion has been the Angelus, but I
happily own Soutard and Magdelaine, and enjoyed the modern Troplong-
Mondot. CT tells me these are the St Emilions I own, in rough
descending order of quantity:

Pavie-Macquin
Magdelaine
Soutard
Barde-Haut
Grand Corbin Despagne
Cheval Blanc (and Petit)
Corbin
Beausejour-Duffau
Pavie-Decesse
Figeac
du Cauze
Clos d'Oratoire
La Confession
La Gaffeliere
La Tour Figeac
Martinet
Monbousquet
Beausejour-Becot
Faugeres
Troplong Mondot
Rocher Bellevue Figeac
Vieux Fortin

I like both styles, I'm just more likely to drink the Monbousquet or
La Confession young with a steak, and the Figeac or Magdelaine with
more age with roast chicken. I don't like Pavie/Pavie Decesse/Le Dome
in the ripest vintages, where the sur-maturite overwhelms me.

>
> First of all, you apparently think I used "light" as a perjorative. I
> don't find lighter body and depth/complexity mutually exclusive.

Yet another example of two countries divided by a single language.
Yes, I had assumed it to be somewhat damning!
> I liked this wine, and my top all-time St Emilion experiences include
> Figeacs and Magdelaines from moderate vintages that I wouldn't
> characterize as big or full. Magdelaine is almost always "lighter-
> styled" in my view, yet in no way lacking in either depth or
> complexity.
>
I think we are agreed on that

> As I said, these divisions are a bit off the cuff, and in some cases
> based on small samples. Funnily I moved the Quinault from supermodern
> to modern as I was doing, could easily have left it where it was. The
> Ausone was based on one sample, but the wine since Rolland arrived
> seems quite different from the austere Ausone of the past.
>
> What constitutes modernism? I'd agree with fruit-emphasis and high
> extraction, and add more apparent oak (whether by higher % of new or
> toast) and "tannin management." Lots of factors affect this, use of
> reverse osmosis, spinning cones, picking grapes at extremes of
> ripeness, etc.

And on that
>
> I'm not an idealogue for either side of the modernity debate (at least
> in Bordeaux).
I must say I prefer the more traditional styles — but agree that the
1995 Angelus was yummy! It has, I think, become more modern in style
as the years have passed.
>My fave 1995 St. Emilion has been the Angelus, but I
> happily own Soutard and Magdelaine, and enjoyed the modern Troplong-
> Mondot. CT tells me these are the St Emilions I own, in rough
> descending order of quantity:
>
> Pavie-Macquin
> Magdelaine
> Soutard
> Barde-Haut
> Grand Corbin Despagne
> Cheval Blanc (and Petit)
> Corbin
> Beausejour-Duffau
> Pavie-Decesse
> Figeac
> du Cauze
> Clos d'Oratoire
> La Confession
> La Gaffeliere
> La Tour Figeac
> Martinet
> Monbousquet
> Beausejour-Becot
> Faugeres
> Troplong Mondot
> Rocher Bellevue Figeac
> Vieux Fortin
Plenty of good wine there to be going on with! — and some good Grand
Crus amongst them whch seem to have found their way across to the
watery West. Happy drinking — do you ever get over to Saint-Emilion?
Did you know that there is a Chancellery of the Jurade in Texas (as
well as many chapters of the Commanderie de Bordeaux)?
The published name and address of the Chancellor is Denis Swift, Box
44125, 3200 Team American Band Bdg., Forth Worth, Texas 76102 Tel +1
81 78 78 63 33