Nina Paley wrote:

> I've avoided animal rights groups because I can't stand the hypocrisy and
> pronatalism. You know, "as long as I'm vegan I can do no wrong - my
> children are messengers for the animals!"
>
> Recently I received a fan letter from an animal advocate who really liked
> "The Stork." He tells me there's a small but quiet contingent of animal
> welfare advocates who don't breed, and are committed enough to get
> snipped. I am heartened. When they go from quiet to loud, I'll join in.
>
> I complained about the dearth of CF articles in the vegetarian press
> (VegNews, Vegetarian Times, etc.), and the letter-writer pointed me to a
> brief "point-counterpoint" from 4 years ago:
>
> http://www.cok.net/abol/10/9.php (point)
> http://www.cok.net/abol/10/10.php (counter-point, aka Breeder Bingo)
>
> The first article simply asks "If we're opposed to breeding cats and dogs,
> why aren't we opposed to breeding humans?" and points out the negative
> consequences of human breeding on animals and the environment. Right on.
>
> The second is retch-worthy, from the first fallacious line to the
> delusional last. I present it here for your shredding pleasure.
>
> --Nina
>
>
> http://www.cok.net/abol/10/10.php
> Counter-Point:
> "Procreation" Is Not a Bad Word
>
> By Erica Fredericks
>
> The animal rights and eco movements are notorious for their criticism of
> human breeding.
>
> Why do we create such divisions among people working toward the same goal?
> Are my actions on behalf of animals somehow less pure because I have
> chosen simultaneously to create human life? Has this rendered my activism
> less potent? I think not. In fact, I believe that not only have I, by
> having children, not obstructed the path to animal liberation, but,
> perhaps, I have helped to pave that road.
>
> While we spend countless hours visiting schools trying to impart our
> message to our youth, in one fell swoop I have given the animals two more
> messengers. Rather than banking on other people's children, why not create
> our own little army of animal advocates?What could be more natural than
> having a child? The will to survive is our most basic instinct. We guard
> our lives jealously, aware that our presence on this earth is contingent
> upon our reproduction. Biologically, we are programmed for long-term
> species survival. While our minds may remind us that we suffer no threat
> of extinction, our bodies and hearts know no such logic. They are
> programmed to want a child. To deny someone the fulfillment of what is
> arguably the most basic, unrelenting longing, is both callous and
> unreasonable.
>
> Many people believe that bringing yet another human life into this world
> is selfish, but I feel the exact opposite. Having children has taught me
> the true meaning of altruism, and, luckily for them, my new sentiments
> have extended themselves towards the earth and her creatures.
>
> Since having my children, I have experienced compassion, empathy,
> sacrifice, and love at depths far greater than I thought possible. I now
> know what it is to be truly at another's service, holding a life so sacred
> that I extend myself towards it fully. These lessons have become gifts to
> the animals for whom I work; rather than detracting from my ability to act
> within the animal rights movement, they have strengthened and inspired me.
>
> It is not just I who has emerged from this mother-child partnership a
> stronger advocate for the animals. My children, to whom I am imparting all
> of my wisdom and values, are already using their voices on behalf of the
> voiceless. The world now has two more members willing to stand up for the
> animals. While we spend countless hours visiting schools trying to impart
> our message to our youth, in one fell swoop I have given the animals two
> more messengers. Rather than banking on other people's children, why not
> create our own little army of animal advocates?
>
> People often ask me why I did not choose adoption. While I readily admit
> that adoption can fulfill many people's needs, there are several
> undeniable differences between it and having one's own biological
> children. The first?the natural urge to reproduce?I have already
> discussed. A second issue is one of health, and, while it may be deemed
> selfish and peripheral by some, it is extremely relevant to many women. It
> has been found that higher estrogen levels are linked to increased risk of
> breast cancer. Child-bearing reduces a woman's estrogen levels, perhaps,
> as I suspect, reflecting our natural conditioning toward child-bearing.
>
> Finally, for some, adoption simply involves too much bureaucracy. Adoption
> in this country can be a nightmare. Countless couples, despite their clear
> predisposition toward wonderful parenting, have been locked out of the
> adoption system. When, in this case, they turn to natural reproduction
> options, can we rightfully deny them this choice? What right have we to
> deny them the fulfillment of so many dreams and desires?
>
> As such, I choose to bring into this world two beings from my own body?to
> learn and grow and, one day, surpass me in my own activism for the
> animals.
>
> ERICA FREDERICKS is a vegan activist and mother of two living in Richmond,
> Va.

"screedmonkey" > wrote in message
...
> Nina Paley wrote:
>
> > I've avoided animal rights groups because I can't stand the hypocrisy
and
> > pronatalism. You know, "as long as I'm vegan I can do no wrong - my
> > children are messengers for the animals!"
> >
> > Recently I received a fan letter from an animal advocate who really
liked
> > "The Stork." He tells me there's a small but quiet contingent of animal
> > welfare advocates who don't breed, and are committed enough to get
> > snipped. I am heartened. When they go from quiet to loud, I'll join in.
> >
> > I complained about the dearth of CF articles in the vegetarian press
> > (VegNews, Vegetarian Times, etc.), and the letter-writer pointed me to a
> > brief "point-counterpoint" from 4 years ago:
> >
> > http://www.cok.net/abol/10/9.php (point)
> > http://www.cok.net/abol/10/10.php (counter-point, aka Breeder Bingo)
> >
> > The first article simply asks "If we're opposed to breeding cats and
dogs,
> > why aren't we opposed to breeding humans?" and points out the negative
> > consequences of human breeding on animals and the environment. Right on.
> >
> > The second is retch-worthy, from the first fallacious line to the
> > delusional last. I present it here for your shredding pleasure.
> >
thank you for posting these; interesting reads. i'm definitely on the 'no
kids' list, for many reasons...but i do think you're being a little to hard
on the second article's author. i mean, she's already had these kids,
right? and from what i hear, having kids is pure magic. it might look
'retch-worthy' to those of us without kids, but i mean, this lady has gone
through that process, and it seems to have really had an effect on her. she
created life from her own body, and that's gotta make you feel all kinds of
feelings that make you spout lovey-dovey sentimental stuff. and i think
that once you have that experience, there's no way you're going to think
that you've done something negative, especially when you have plans to
impart values like compassion for animals to your kids. i do agree with her
that adoption still has too many barriers, and that you can't just tell
folks that they can't have any kids. i mean, some people just really have a
drive to procreate. it's natural, and i don't know what it feels like, but
i doubt you can override that kind of thing. so telling those folks that
they just can't have kids, unless they're truly unfit for parenting, would
be pretty cruel. maybe if we just work on changing attitudes (that life
progresses to include marriage + job + house + picket fence + minivan +
2.5children), make it less stigmatized to not have kids, and work on making
adoption and birth control (permanent and non-permanent) more accessible
(financially and otherwise), that would help more than trying to actively
prevent people from having kids.

> > --Nina
> >
> >
> > http://www.cok.net/abol/10/10.php
> > Counter-Point:
> > "Procreation" Is Not a Bad Word
> >
> > By Erica Fredericks
> >
> > The animal rights and eco movements are notorious for their criticism of
> > human breeding.
> >
> > Why do we create such divisions among people working toward the same
goal?
> > Are my actions on behalf of animals somehow less pure because I have
> > chosen simultaneously to create human life? Has this rendered my
activism
> > less potent? I think not. In fact, I believe that not only have I, by
> > having children, not obstructed the path to animal liberation, but,
> > perhaps, I have helped to pave that road.
> >
> > While we spend countless hours visiting schools trying to impart our
> > message to our youth, in one fell swoop I have given the animals two
more
> > messengers. Rather than banking on other people's children, why not
create
> > our own little army of animal advocates?What could be more natural than
> > having a child? The will to survive is our most basic instinct. We guard
> > our lives jealously, aware that our presence on this earth is contingent
> > upon our reproduction. Biologically, we are programmed for long-term
> > species survival. While our minds may remind us that we suffer no threat
> > of extinction, our bodies and hearts know no such logic. They are
> > programmed to want a child. To deny someone the fulfillment of what is
> > arguably the most basic, unrelenting longing, is both callous and
> > unreasonable.
> >
> > Many people believe that bringing yet another human life into this world
> > is selfish, but I feel the exact opposite. Having children has taught me
> > the true meaning of altruism, and, luckily for them, my new sentiments
> > have extended themselves towards the earth and her creatures.
> >
> > Since having my children, I have experienced compassion, empathy,
> > sacrifice, and love at depths far greater than I thought possible. I now
> > know what it is to be truly at another's service, holding a life so
sacred
> > that I extend myself towards it fully. These lessons have become gifts
to
> > the animals for whom I work; rather than detracting from my ability to
act
> > within the animal rights movement, they have strengthened and inspired
me.
> >
> > It is not just I who has emerged from this mother-child partnership a
> > stronger advocate for the animals. My children, to whom I am imparting
all
> > of my wisdom and values, are already using their voices on behalf of the
> > voiceless. The world now has two more members willing to stand up for
the
> > animals. While we spend countless hours visiting schools trying to
impart
> > our message to our youth, in one fell swoop I have given the animals two
> > more messengers. Rather than banking on other people's children, why not
> > create our own little army of animal advocates?
> >
> > People often ask me why I did not choose adoption. While I readily admit
> > that adoption can fulfill many people's needs, there are several
> > undeniable differences between it and having one's own biological
> > children. The first?the natural urge to reproduce?I have already
> > discussed. A second issue is one of health, and, while it may be deemed
> > selfish and peripheral by some, it is extremely relevant to many women.
It
> > has been found that higher estrogen levels are linked to increased risk
of
> > breast cancer. Child-bearing reduces a woman's estrogen levels, perhaps,
> > as I suspect, reflecting our natural conditioning toward child-bearing.
> >
> > Finally, for some, adoption simply involves too much bureaucracy.
Adoption
> > in this country can be a nightmare. Countless couples, despite their
clear
> > predisposition toward wonderful parenting, have been locked out of the
> > adoption system. When, in this case, they turn to natural reproduction
> > options, can we rightfully deny them this choice? What right have we to
> > deny them the fulfillment of so many dreams and desires?
> >
> > As such, I choose to bring into this world two beings from my own
body?to
> > learn and grow and, one day, surpass me in my own activism for the
> > animals.
> >
> > ERICA FREDERICKS is a vegan activist and mother of two living in
Richmond,
> > Va.
>