Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-06-2004, 08:02 PM
Wolfbrother
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/gca?SEA...bstract%28s%29


I find it amazing how REALITY contradicts almost everything the
medical mainstream as well as animal rights, vegetarian/vegan fanatics
would have us believe about nutrition. It is absolutely mind
boggling. While these diets are similar to what is recommended for us
to eat by AMA NIH and others when we see large groups of people eating
such diets we find they are extremely defficient and unhealthy. The
children are the ones who suffer the most on diets such as this yet
that is never taken into consideration by politically correct
nutritionists.

"Diets are mainly cereal-based, with tubers and a variety of
vegetables and fruits when available....In general, Kenyan children
have inadequate intakes of energy, fat...Baseline data revealed
stunting and underweight in 30% of children and widespread inadequate
intakes and/or biochemical evidence of micronutrient deficiencies,
particularly of iron, zinc, vitamins A and B-12, riboflavin and
calcium. Little or no ASF(animal source foods) were eaten and fat
intake was low...There is an urgent need to increase the intake of
animal source foods by Kenyan children."

hmmm inadequate energy intake...inadequate fat
intake...hmmm...grain/vegetable based diet...hmmm...does any of this
sound familiar?...Calorie restricted fat restricted vegetarian/vegan
diet perhaps? The very same that is recommended by mainstream
politically correct nutrition for health and longevity. Will they
ever get a reality check??



"Animal source foods (ASF) can provide micronutrients in greater
amounts and more bioavailable forms compared to plant source foods,
but their intake is low in many poor populations."

Another example of how plant/grain based diets are diets of poverty
and famine and not foods humans seek out for optimal health.


other significant quotes:
"Animal source foods can provide a variety of micronutrients that are
difficult to obtain in adequate quantities from plant source foods
alone. In the 1980s, the Nutrition Collaborative Research Support
Program identified six micronutrients that were particularly low in
the primarily vegetarian diets of schoolchildren in rural Egypt, Kenya
and Mexico: vitamin A, vitamin B-12, riboflavin, calcium, iron and
zinc. Negative health outcomes associated with inadequate intake of
these nutrients include anemia, poor growth, rickets, impaired
cognitive performance, blindness, neuromuscular deficits and
eventually, death. Animal source foods are particularly rich sources
of all six of these nutrients, and relatively small amounts of these
foods, added to a vegetarian diet, can substantially increase nutrient
adequacy"


"A previous longitudinal three-country study in Egypt, Kenya and
Mexico found significant positive associations between intake of
animal source foods (ASF) and growth, cognitive development and
physical activity."

"Observational studies of dietary patterns and growth and studies with
milk supplementation have shown that children consuming diets
containing animal source foods grow better."

It is sickening to me that despite all of this clear and indisputable
evidence we are still told to eat vegetarian low fat diets not only
for ourselves but for our CHILDREN!! And you can still see incidents
of ignorant missguided parants killing or seriously injuring their
babies and children by trying to feed them those kinds of diets. This
should not be happening!!!! There is absolutely no reason for it.
Every person should understand these basic facts about human and child
nutrition but they do not. It happens FOR NO OTHER REASON than the
flawed recomendations of the mainstream medical comunity and their
refusal to comprehend the basic facts of human and child nutrition and
do everything they can to inform parants about the truth. They are
responsible for the injury and death of countless children.

All of the observations in these recent studies fully support the
observations seen by Weston Price in his travels. Animal source foods
are vital to human health. That is the simple truth. The refusal of
people to understand and accept this reality is mind boggling. The
health of these vegetarian african groups is in stark contrast to the
superior health of cattle hearding tribes with animal source diets.
Another thing worth mentioning is the rate of diabetes in africa is
one of the highest DESPITE the lack of large amounts of modern
processed foods loaded with refined carbs. This is not surprising
considering the extremely large number of people who have no choice
but to live on vegetarian diets. This fact is significant showing
that strict plant/grain based diets consumed almost from birth with no
animal source foods can be just as dangerous if not more so than diets
with high amounts of refined carbs but also containing large amounts
of animal source foods like the modern american diet.

When will you animal rights fanatics come to grips with reality?
When will you understand that your vegan diets are harmfull not just
to yourselves but especialy to children. Humans need animal foods to
thrive and children need them to grow properly. If you want to injure
yourself that is fine with me but when you endanger others, especialy
children, you are crossing the line. I can only wonder what animal
rights fanatics such as PETA would do in situations like those in
Africa. Probably let those millions of HUMAN! thats right HUMAN
children suffer and die so that animals would not have to die in order
to nourish them properly. Makes me sick.

  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-06-2004, 08:31 PM
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foodsfor children

Wolfbrother wrote:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/gca?SEA...bstract%28s%29


I find it amazing how REALITY contradicts almost everything the
medical mainstream as well as animal rights, vegetarian/vegan fanatics
would have us believe about nutrition.


Plonk!
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-06-2004, 09:01 PM
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children


"Wolfbrother" wrote in message
om...

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/gca?SEA...bstract%28s%29

"Wolfbrother" feels sick!

Well go and have a good puke.

Preferably on another newsgroup.

snip crap and lies





  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 12:20 AM
John Coleman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

a false dilemma, vegetarian/vegan children can do well if the conditions are
right

http://www.thegardendiet.com/


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 02:52 AM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children


"John Coleman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
a false dilemma, vegetarian/vegan children can do well if the conditions

are
right

http://www.thegardendiet.com/

===========================

ROTFLMAO A page that is trying to get dupes to buy a book!!! Now that's
objectivity, eh stupid?








  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 08:33 AM
John Coleman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

Rick, you didn't complain about Wolfbrothers lack of "objectivity" in
reporting problems from areas with poor soils or famine. This is a well used
false dilemma tactic.

The facts are that there are vegetarian kids who grow up and develop
normally. This is not my opinion, but as Wolfbrother admits, the opinion of
plenty of health experts, read his opening remarks.

"I find it amazing how REALITY contradicts almost everything the
MEDICAL MAINSTREAM as well as animal rights, vegetarian/vegan fanatics
would have us believe about nutrition. "

Wolfbrother is another one of those incredulous self appointed experts
(http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/SelfApptdExp.htm) who just can't accept
what has already been agreed by and observed by the experts.

John C


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 02:51 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:31:28 -0400, Steve wrote:

Wolfbrother wrote:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/gca?SEA...bstract%28s%29


I find it amazing how REALITY contradicts almost everything the
medical mainstream as well as animal rights, vegetarian/vegan fanatics
would have us believe about nutrition.


Plonk!


Plonk!
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 07:43 PM
Wolfbrother
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

"John Coleman" wrote in message news:[email protected]
Rick, you didn't complain about Wolfbrothers lack of "objectivity" in
reporting problems from areas with poor soils or famine. This is a well used
false dilemma tactic.

The facts are that there are vegetarian kids who grow up and develop
normally. This is not my opinion, but as Wolfbrother admits, the opinion of
plenty of health experts, read his opening remarks.

"I find it amazing how REALITY contradicts almost everything the
MEDICAL MAINSTREAM as well as animal rights, vegetarian/vegan fanatics
would have us believe about nutrition. "

Wolfbrother is another one of those incredulous self appointed experts
(http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/SelfApptdExp.htm) who just can't accept
what has already been agreed by and observed by the experts.

John C



Sorry but vegan diets are not natural and humans can not thrive on
them especialy not children and all the real evidence points to that.
When stupid ignorant people try this is what happens to them and their
children



Persistence of neurological damage induced by dietary vitamin B-12
deficiency in infancy:

http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...=&FIRSTINDEX=0


Neurologic Impairment in Children Associated With Maternal Dietary
Deficiency of Cobalamin—Georgia, 2001:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...urnalcode=jama


A maternal vegetarian diet in pregnancy is associated with
hypospadias. The ALSPAC Study Team. Avon Longitudinal Study of
Pregnancy and Childhood:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


Determinants of Cobalamin Status in Newborns:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...e=pediatric s


Unsuspected nutritional rickets:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ode=pediatrics


Totally vegetarian diets and infant nutrition:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ode=pediatrics


The changing pattern of maternal and neonatal anemia at Udaipur during
2 decades in relation to poverty, parity, prematurity and
vegetarianism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=2064586


http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

http://www.beyondveg.com/

http://www.zhealthinfo.com/newsletter-9.htm
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 09:51 PM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children


"John Coleman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
Rick, you didn't complain about Wolfbrothers lack of "objectivity" in
reporting problems from areas with poor soils or famine. This is a well

used
false dilemma tactic.

=======================
I don't know that he used any tatic at all. The link didn't work in my
browser, and I wasn't about to type all that in.

I do know however that *you* used a site that only wanted rubes to buy
books.




The facts are that there are vegetarian kids who grow up and develop
normally. This is not my opinion, but as Wolfbrother admits, the opinion

of
plenty of health experts, read his opening remarks.

================
But not on a 'natural' diet. There is nothing natural about suppliments.



"I find it amazing how REALITY contradicts almost everything the
MEDICAL MAINSTREAM as well as animal rights, vegetarian/vegan fanatics
would have us believe about nutrition. "

Wolfbrother is another one of those incredulous self appointed experts
(http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/SelfApptdExp.htm) who just can't

accept
what has already been agreed by and observed by the experts.

==================
What's been agreed on by experts is that a vegan cannot get his b12
naturally for plant material. Unless of course those foods have been
unnaturally fortified.

What the proof is that the longest living groups of people in the world are
not vegan.

Too bad you don't have any proof of the rest of vegan claims like 'saving'
more animals.



John C




  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 10:30 PM
John Coleman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

Wolfbrother
Persistence of neurological damage induced by dietary vitamin B-12
deficiency in infancy:


http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...=&FIRSTINDEX=0

This deficiency was treated with supplements - "Vitamin B-12 supplements led
to a rapid improvement of haematological and neurological symptoms". The
article does not support you proposition that we need to eat animal
products. It supports the proposition that humans need B12.

Neurologic Impairment in Children Associated With Maternal Dietary
Deficiency of Cobalamin-Georgia, 2001:


http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...urnalcode=jama

ditto

A maternal vegetarian diet in pregnancy is associated with
hypospadias. The ALSPAC Study Team. Avon Longitudinal Study of
Pregnancy and Childhood:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Inconclusive, but note that meat eater kids also get hypospadias.

Determinants of Cobalamin Status in Newborns:


http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...e=pediatric s

yep, people need B12!

Unsuspected nutritional rickets:


http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ode=pediatrics

Sunshine provides vitamin D, meat does not. Milk doesn't provide enough
either unless supplemented. Only a few kinds of fish provide much vitamin D.
Some mushrooms can be reasonable sources.

Totally vegetarian diets and infant nutrition:


http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ode=pediatrics

So what about vegan mothers who supplement with vitamin B12 and get plenty
of sunshine? How do you think they do?? I can save you answering this,
because I personally know vegan kids who have done fine, no rickets and no
anaemia. My daughter Candie is vegan from a vegan mother and has no
developmental problems. This single case destroys your hypothesis.

The changing pattern of maternal and neonatal anemia at Udaipur during
2 decades in relation to poverty, parity, prematurity and
vegetarianism:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=2064586

Again selection bias. Although of concern, none of these papers actually
seem to support your proposition Wolfbrother. I do agree with you that
veganism is unnatural, we would get insects and dirt in a natural diet, and
these can supply the B12, EFAs and even a useful protein boost.

John C




  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 10:46 PM
John Coleman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

Rick
I don't know that he used any tatic at all.


He did, I pointed it out, and now he has done it again!

I do know however that *you* used a site that only wanted rubes to buy
books.


No, if you read into it a little you will see that the mother there has 4
kids all vegan (I think they use honey), but they use no supplements. I have
heard other reports of 2nd and 3rd generation life vegans who don't touch
supplements - I suspect they grow their own produce in their own nightsoil.

But not on a 'natural' diet. There is nothing natural about suppliments.


Supplements are not essential. B12 may be obtained from faeces or dirt, but
we choose not to eat that - animal products are not the only source of B12.

What's been agreed on by experts is that a vegan cannot get his b12
naturally for plant material. Unless of course those foods have been
unnaturally fortified.


Animals don't make B12, it is synthesised only by bacteria. These live
inside the animals guts.

What the proof is that the longest living groups of people in the world

are
not vegan.


There are no mortality studies on vegans so nothing to compare with. The
Okinawans have the greatest average longevity I believe, but meat is only a
small part of their diet. Populations that eat large amounts of animal
products don't have the greatest longevity. However, longevity is not an
indicator of quality of life. It is however, not a specific aim of vegans to
live longer, rather to reduce animal exploitation and suffering. In fact
dying sooner would probably help that greatly!

Too bad you don't have any proof of the rest of vegan claims like 'saving'
more animals.


I'm not sure vegans claim to save more animals, just to reduce some of the
suffering inherent in farming and lifestock slaughter. The key ethic for
veganism is actually non-exploitation - veganism is basically about animal
liberation, not how many animals are killed. Modern meat production is
inherently toxic and destructive, so I would imagine worse than veganism in
terms of total animals killed. Eating some bugs out the yard or bagging a
rabbit would save more lives than eating commerical meat I guess, and
probably more than eating a commercial vegan diet. But if you grew all your
own plant foods, then I think that would save the most animal lives.

John C


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-06-2004, 10:46 PM
John Coleman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

mmm... "plonkers"!?

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:31:28 -0400, Steve

wrote:

Wolfbrother wrote:

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/gca?SEA...bstract%28s%29


I find it amazing how REALITY contradicts almost everything the
medical mainstream as well as animal rights, vegetarian/vegan fanatics
would have us believe about nutrition.


Plonk!


Plonk!



  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-07-2004, 02:32 AM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children


"John Coleman" wrote in message
...
Rick
I don't know that he used any tatic at all.


He did, I pointed it out, and now he has done it again!

I do know however that *you* used a site that only wanted rubes to buy
books.


No, if you read into it a little you will see that the mother there has 4
kids all vegan (I think they use honey), but they use no supplements. I

have
heard other reports of 2nd and 3rd generation life vegans who don't touch
supplements - I suspect they grow their own produce in their own

nightsoil.

But not on a 'natural' diet. There is nothing natural about

suppliments.

Supplements are not essential. B12 may be obtained from faeces or dirt,

but
we choose not to eat that - animal products are not the only source of

B12.

What's been agreed on by experts is that a vegan cannot get his b12
naturally for plant material. Unless of course those foods have been
unnaturally fortified.


Animals don't make B12, it is synthesised only by bacteria. These live
inside the animals guts.

What the proof is that the longest living groups of people in the world

are
not vegan.


There are no mortality studies on vegans so nothing to compare with. The
Okinawans have the greatest average longevity I believe, but meat is only

a
small part of their diet.

====================
Then that makes them non-vegan you ignorant dolt. You can't argue about the
amount.



Populations that eat large amounts of animal
products don't have the greatest longevity. However, longevity is not an
indicator of quality of life. It is however, not a specific aim of vegans

to
live longer, rather to reduce animal exploitation and suffering. In fact
dying sooner would probably help that greatly!

===============
LOL Then why do you use a site that is all about promoting vegan as
healthy? You really are a hoot! You can't claim it both ways, dolt.
But the 2nd part of your claim is also false. You prove that with each and
every one of your ineane posts to usenet. Vegans have no real desire to
reduce their impact on animals. As I just said, you all prove that with
each post. You follow only a simple rule for your simple mind, 'eat no
meat.'



Too bad you don't have any proof of the rest of vegan claims like

'saving'
more animals.


I'm not sure vegans claim to save more animals, just to reduce some of the
suffering inherent in farming and lifestock slaughter.

=================
LOL The truth fainally comes out. It's not about killing animals, it's
only about the hatred you have for those that kill different animals than
you do. Way to go, killer.


The key ethic for
veganism is actually non-exploitation - veganism is basically about animal
liberation, not how many animals are killed.

====================
ROTFLMAO What's more exploitive of an animals than to kill it for your
convenience and entertainment? You realy really are just too stupid for
this, hypocrite.

Modern meat production is
inherently toxic and destructive,

======================
No more so than modern mono-culture crop production.

so I would imagine worse than veganism in
terms of total animals killed. Eating some bugs out the yard or bagging a
rabbit would save more lives than eating commerical meat I guess, and
probably more than eating a commercial vegan diet. But if you grew all

your
own plant foods, then I think that would save the most animal lives.

================
Yet you, nor anyother usenet vegan here even comes close to terying to grow
their own. It's all about your selfish convenience and hatred of others.


John C




  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-07-2004, 02:32 AM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children


"John Coleman"

snippage...


...I do agree with you that veganism is unnatural,...


Way to go john!


snipage..


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-07-2004, 09:13 AM
John Coleman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dangers of vegetarian/vegan diets and importans of animal foods for children

Rick
====================
Then that makes them non-vegan you ignorant dolt. You can't argue about

the
amount.


The amount is important Rick, because some people suggest eating a lot of
animal products is optimal. There is no evidence of this at all.

LOL Then why do you use a site that is all about promoting vegan as
healthy? You really are a hoot! You can't claim it both ways, dolt.


It's up to people to choose Rick. Some are interested in health, many are
not. Since many vegans are not interested in health they make a selection
biased group to study for good health. You simply cannot generalise from a
heterogenous population like vegans and then draw specific conclusions.

But the 2nd part of your claim is also false. You prove that with each

and
every one of your ineane posts to usenet. Vegans have no real desire to
reduce their impact on animals. As I just said, you all prove that with
each post. You follow only a simple rule for your simple mind, 'eat no
meat.'


This is just specious rubbish Rick. There are many vegan land community
projects now than minimize their impact on land and animals. Here are 2:

http://www.ecoforest.org/
http://rawveganeco-villages.org/

These kinds of projects have minimal impact on animals, there is no use of
municipal supplies. These kind of projects are now growing in numbers, and
most are vegan or vegetarian. I plan to join one in the next few years, but
mostly to save my own animal, saving others is just an added bonus.
Furthermore I know vegans who work at shelters and rescue centres for
animals that would probably have died if they had not received their care.

LOL The truth fainally comes out. It's not about killing animals, it's
only about the hatred you have for those that kill different animals than
you do. Way to go, killer.


You don't listen do you Rick, I made this patently clear that it is about
exploitation, and the way in which people kill animals. The focus is
basically on psychology. Being vegan will obviously help to save the lives
of creatures that may otherwise be killed for the table. Comparing people
who live similar lifestyles, one vegan and one not, I think it fairly
obvious that the vegan will cause less death to animals - starting with
those killed for the table. I would like to see you demonstrate otherwise.

ROTFLMAO What's more exploitive of an animals than to kill it for your
convenience and entertainment? You realy really are just too stupid for
this, hypocrite.


No Rick, you are just illogical. You fail to acknowledge the difference
between intentional and accidental killing.

No more so than modern mono-culture crop production.


Eating agrochemical mono crop foods is not necessary for vegans. Most the
vegans I know are into organic foods, and try to grow their own. I grow a
few fruits and veggies in my yard, but really we need a lot more land and
time to work it to be self sufficient.

Yet you, nor anyother usenet vegan here even comes close to terying to

grow
their own. It's all about your selfish convenience and hatred of others.


Well I admit to disliking people for funding and participating in cruely to
animals for no good reason - and why not? For most people it is not so
convenient being vegan.

You paint a very narrow and warped picture of what vegans do for animals
Rick, which reflects your own biased agenda, an innevitable product of your
twisted psyche.

John C




Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why risk it? Vegetarian Diets and Cancer Prevention VolksVegan Vegan 0 04-12-2010 08:00 PM
ADA endourses VEGAN DIets for children (corrected buffer) Beach Runner Vegan 0 09-01-2006 01:00 PM
Low fa diets hurt children Beach Runner Vegan 3 23-11-2005 05:22 PM
FA: Four Vegetarian Books for children, mothers, etc. VEGAN VEGETARIAN Mark General Cooking 0 05-08-2004 09:11 PM
Animal Rights and cruelty free diets Forum Minoesj Vegan 0 29-06-2004 12:23 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:31 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2021 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Food and drink"

 

Copyright © 2017