Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:11 PM
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

Gary Beckwith wrote:

i have no responsibility to prove anything to you.


You have an intellectual responsibility to support your
claims. That you don't even attempt to support them,
particularly after shrilly demanding that others
support theirs, indicates not just the intellectual
bankruptcy of your position, but a massive character
flaw as well.

The massive character flaw, of course, was already in
evidence, when you LIED about your basis for knowing
about cattle slaughter and dairy farm operations. The
flaw is revealed as even deeper than expected, when you
top-post and refuse to address the fact that you LIED.

you are obviously closed minded anyway.


Non sequitur, and not based on either logic or
observation. You merely don't like that I disagree
with you.

to say it is worthless propoganda shows your
point of view already.


Robbins is a polemicist and propagandist, not a scientist.

why should I waste my time. the truth is, it is
NOT worthless propaganda when people who have spent their lifetimes
raising cattle tell their stories. photos don't lie either.

Jonathan Ball wrote:

Gary Beckwith wrote:


Jonathan Ball wrote:



now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Prove any of this. Get busy.



I don't have to prove it, there are dozens of books already written,


Cite them.


with photos, first hand accounts from farmers, etc. read Diet for A New
America.


Worthless propaganda by someone who ought to know
better, and probably does, but willfully lies.




Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop
lying.


My point was not about WHERE they are slaughtered, it is about HOW. The
WHERE has nothing to do with it.


Liar. You claimed to know the HOW because you live in
farm country, which is a WHE

I know [how beef cattle are slaughtered], I live in
farm country and I see it every day.

You LIED. You do NOT see it every day. In fact, you
filthy liar, you have NEVER seen it.

Admit it: you LIED.



Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

You've never been inside the building, either, so you
don't know what you're talking about.


Predictably, no comment. You liked about your
knowledge of dairy cattle operations, too.

Just out of curiosity, is there anything you HAVEN'T
lied about in this thread?



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested,
heavy machinery again drives through the fields,
killing animals.


killing what animals? the bugs in the soil? this is rediculous.


No, dummy. Burrowing mammals, birds, reptiles. What's
"rediculous" [sic] about it?



  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:15 PM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.


"Gary Beckwith" wrote in message
...
you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

=======================
And increases the demand for veggies that can cause even more animals to
die.
Why is it that only the big moo-eyed cows count toward all this vegan
'saving'?




second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life.

======================
Which is not being followed by *ANY* so-called vegan here on usenet.


many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

================
You do realize don't you that PeTA(the 'e' is lower case in their logo for a
reason) kills more
animals than it saves once they get their bloody hands on them don't you?



now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting.

=====================
It's killed in a far more humane fashion than the animals that die to
provide you with your cheap, conveninet veggies, hypocrite.
Have you seen what poisons do to an animals gut over the course of a few
days, while they die a slow painful death?



I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

====================
Yes, exactly. Look it up, killer. Plowing, spraying, harvesting, all can
cause death and suffering to animals.
Some crops even more so than others. Plus, your crops provide abundant
cover and easy food, allowing
the populations of many animals to explode over the summer. Then what
happens once these numbers are at their peak?
You take away all the food and cover, leaving the animals to suffer from
starvation and predation. Face it, crop production
is a killing proposition. And, that doesn't even include all the
petro-chemical input for the production, processing, and transportation of
your crops.



you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

==================
I suggest you get your's lined up first before you look even more stupid
than you already do.



It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit.

=================
No need. We accept that death occurs. Now, why do you try to justify all
the death
and suffering you cause?


Virtually all your statements are completely false.
=====================
Everyone of yours is....


If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.
But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.

==================
ROTFLMAO I suggest you worry about the mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and
amphibians tha die for no more reason
than your selfish conveninece.



Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you. Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though. Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.

==================
It's yours that is completly untrue and full of ignorance. And, vegans are
always trying to tell us how to eat.




Gary

wrote:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and

ethically
superior way, some people believe we should disregard certain facts.
Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to disregard more facts than
meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following are
lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want
to disregard. If you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they
can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone
else does by their use of wood, paper, roads, buildings,

electricity,
things that contain animal by-products, and the veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of
veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of
veggies.



  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:18 PM
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

Gary Beckwith wrote:
whatever, I find it quite odd that people who eat meat have the time to
criticize people who don't even though it has nothing to do with them.


I don't eat meat. I also don't consume dairy or eggs. Shatters your
illusion, huh.

it's just like being environmental, and recycling.


No, it isn't.

I've heard people say it's a waste of time to recycle because there's
so much garbage.


Who cares what you've heard? Most of the people I know DO recycle. It
has nothing at all to do with this thread, but I know you're out of ammo
now that you've been called out on your country boy claims.

Or why buy an electric car,


Shit, with the cost of electricity in my city? No way I'd ever get an
electric car. If everyone (since you seem to like such thoughts) had an
electric car, we'd have to build more nuclear power plants to keep up
with electrical demand. You want more nuclear power? Or want us to burn
more coal and natural gas (the two main non-nuke sources of energy in
the US)? Funny, you leftists seem to want us to use less energy.

or use solar panels on your house, when it won't
really make a difference.


Irrelevant, Gary. Solar panels are only cost-effective for certain
situations.

The truth is, that if everyone ate vegetarian, there would be enough
food to feed the entire world.


That is not the truth. There is enough food to feed the entire world
already. The problem lies in distribution.

and if everyone used renewable energy
our planet would be inhabitable in 100 years.


The planet will still be inhabitable in 500 years. Stop getting your
talking points from failed policy wonks. The assholes feeding you this
nonsense, like Paul Ehrlich, were the ones who said we'd go to another
ice age. They were wrong about the coming ice age, they're wrong about
everything else now that they've changed their minds.

I didn't start this discussion.


You participated.

I don't go out of my way to tell people they should or shouldn't
do anything.


You made claims which you failed to support with evidence. The best
you've done is make reference to one book written by an activist.
Where's your evidence from mainstream sources?

You can eat all the meat you want.


I don't eat any.

But don't litter this newsgroup with lies and point the finger at
people who are making personal decisions that have nothing to do with
yours.


Whoa, wait one ****ing minute. You're the one who's made unsupported
claims. You do not get a pass by calling others liars without supporting
your own assertions. That's really pathetic. As for finger-pointing, wtf
are you doing to me? Loser.

PS: Quit top-posting and go back and respond point-by-point to what I
wrote, country boy.

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:20 PM
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

Stop top-posting, shitbag.

Gary Beckwith wrote:

whatever, I find it quite odd that people who eat meat have the time to
criticize people who don't even though it has nothing to do with them.


It has a lot to do with us. "veganism" is an
aggressive movement that seeks ultimately to impose its
values on those who disagree with "vegan" fanatics.


it's just like being environmental, and recycling. I've heard people say
it's a waste of time to recycle because there's so much garbage. Or why
buy an electric car, or use solar panels on your house, when it won't
really make a difference.

The truth is, that if everyone ate vegetarian, there would be enough
food to feed the entire world.


There already is more than enough food to feed the
entire world, EVEN WITH the consumption of grain by
livestock. You indicate that you are utterly ignorant
of the economics of world hunger.

and if everyone used renewable energy
our planet would be inhabitable in 100 years.

I didn't start this discussion.


Yes, you did.

I don't go out of my way to tell people
they should or shouldn't do anything.


It's implicit in "veganism". You feel you're doing
something "more" ethical by not consuming Animal Parts,
and it's quite natural to think that everyone else
ought to do likewise. In fact, if you DIDN'T feel that
everyone ought to do likewise, then it would be even
further removed from being a legitimate ethical choice.

It always amazes me that people are so indoctrinated
into moral relativism that when they behave, or believe
they are behaving, differently on ethical matters from
others, they can pretend there is no implied criticism
of those who don't believe and practice as they do.
Thus, for example, people who proclaim themselves
"personally" opposed to abortion, but out the other
side of their mouths say they don't want to "impose
their values" on those who want an abortion, are
massive hypocrites. If it's wrong for them to
extinguish the life of an unborn human fetus, then they
MUST necessarily believe that it is wrong for everyone.

You are LYING, again, if you say you don't want to tell
others what to eat.

You can eat all the meat you want.


There's your lie again.

But don't litter this newsgroup with lies and point the finger at
people who are making personal decisions that have nothing to do with
yours.


The "personal decisions" are based on lies and illogic.

  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:29 PM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.


wrote in message
ink.net...
wrote:


snippage...



Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't.


That's merely your opinion, and it is based on ignorance.

==================
Just as it is vegan ignorance that says they have bad lives?




If you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.


If one thinks that it is horrible to kill an animal for
human consumption, then they indeed all have horrible
lives.

=======================
Why is vegans never consider it bad to kill animals and then NOT eat them?
happens all the time for your veggies production.





your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?



From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef.


You are a massive hypocrite. You do not eat grass-fed
beef. You do not make any effort at all to choose meat
from sources that treated animals better than the
average for their industries. You buy whatever beef,
chicken, pork and other that Piggly Wiggly has in
shrink-wrapped packages. You are not an ethical meat
eater.

====================
Grass fed beef is quite easy to find, oh master mind-reader. The ones I eat
are raised just down the road, and are slaughtered
just a few more miles down the road. They aren't 'kept' in barns or stalls
either. They have an open 'shed' they can go into if they please, but they
mostly roam the fields doing what cows do best. Eating grasses.



A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.


You have no support for that claim. It's idle,
ignorant speculation.

=====================
No, it's not. What is speculative about pesticide deaths of animals? what
is speculative about poisoning animals at storage and processing facilities?
I think it's your blinders getting in the way.
Animals die in crop production. It's not a game. It's not speculation.
Plowing, spraying, harvesting are all machine intensive operations. their
direct usage
kills animals. the indirect costs from the petro-chemical industry causes
even more.

Have a nice blood-drenched dinner, killer...




Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animal die...
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...feFactSheet.pd
f



Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/


To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
Just a little extra proof that they are NO vegans on usenet.



snippage...





  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:36 PM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.


"Gary Beckwith" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Ball wrote:


now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.


Prove any of this. Get busy.


I don't have to prove it, there are dozens of books already written,
with photos, first hand accounts from farmers, etc. read Diet for A New
America.

==============
Yes, you do. You made a claim about meat. Starnge that I see the cows that
I end up eating roaming the fields right down the road day and night.
Never seen tham in a stall, since there are none. never seen them in a
crate, since there are none. So, come on, prove to me that these cows are
just a figment of my imagination, and that your so-called proof isn't just
the same trumped up stuff shown over and over and over....




Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I

know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.


Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop
lying.


My point was not about WHERE they are slaughtered, it is about HOW. The
WHERE has nothing to do with it.
========================

Some are. Some are slaughtered right on the farms at smaller operations.
But, the fact still remains, they die a far more humane death than the
animals that die for your cheap, conveninet veggies.



Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.


You've never been inside the building, either, so you
don't know what you're talking about.







your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?


Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested,
heavy machinery again drives through the fields,
killing animals.


killing what animals? the bugs in the soil? this is rediculous.

=======================
No, ignorant fool. mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and amphibians. Are you
really that stupid as to have to ask?
Now, if you want to discuss bugs, let's go right ahead. what do you think
they are? Mineral? Seem like live creatures to me though.
Want to add them to your 'account' of death and suffering of living
creatures just so that YOU can live a selfish, convenient lifestyle?




Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...feFactSheet.pd
f



Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/


To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:42 PM
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

Jonathan Ball wrote:
whatever, I find it quite odd that people who eat meat have the time to
criticize people who don't even though it has nothing to do with them.


It has a lot to do with us. "veganism" is an aggressive movement that
seeks ultimately to impose its values on those who disagree with "vegan"
fanatics.


Yes, and this is the reason Robbins writes his books. It isn't enough to
point to the healthy benefits of adding whole grains, fruits, and
vegetables to one's diet. He instead vilifies industries that involve
livestock and presents disinformation that those industries are
responsible for hunger and nearly every societal ill. The solutions
offered are not moderate, but radical: elimination of meat and dairy
industries.

Gary's tolerance is baseless in the respect that he offers such a
radical source as evidence. He willfully ignores the problem of
collateral deaths in production of plant-based foods. He wants to change
the world, but he cannot even change himself.

The truth is, that if everyone ate vegetarian, there would be enough
food to feed the entire world.


There already is more than enough food to feed the entire world, EVEN
WITH the consumption of grain by livestock. You indicate that you are
utterly ignorant of the economics of world hunger.


The problem of hunger is based on three main variables, which are best
summed up into one. The three main variables are war, famine, and
poverty; they are summed up by the problem of distribution. We can and
do drop food into Somalia, but most people there are unlikely to receive
very much, if any, because it's captured by warlords who use it to
increase their power bases. We can and do feed other regions hit by
drought, which only encourages them to remain in unproductive regions.
We can and do provide food to people of poor nations, whose governments
are usually corrupt and/or repressive (e.g., North Korea).

and if everyone used renewable energy
our planet would be inhabitable in 100 years.

I didn't start this discussion.


Yes, you did.

I don't go out of my way to tell people
they should or shouldn't do anything.


It's implicit in "veganism". You feel you're doing something "more"
ethical by not consuming Animal Parts, and it's quite natural to think
that everyone else ought to do likewise. In fact, if you DIDN'T feel
that everyone ought to do likewise, then it would be even further
removed from being a legitimate ethical choice.

It always amazes me that people are so indoctrinated into moral
relativism that when they behave, or believe they are behaving,
differently on ethical matters from others, they can pretend there is no
implied criticism of those who don't believe and practice as they do.
Thus, for example, people who proclaim themselves "personally" opposed
to abortion, but out the other side of their mouths say they don't want
to "impose their values" on those who want an abortion, are massive
hypocrites. If it's wrong for them to extinguish the life of an unborn
human fetus, then they MUST necessarily believe that it is wrong for
everyone.

You are LYING, again, if you say you don't want to tell others what to eat.


Very well put, Mr Ball. Gary's hypocrisy is pretty blatant.

You can eat all the meat you want.


There's your lie again.


"If everyone ate vegetarian" kind of blows up his notion of tolerance.
So do his sources -- PETA and Robbins.

But don't litter this newsgroup with lies and point the finger at
people who are making personal decisions that have nothing to do with
yours.


The "personal decisions" are based on lies and illogic.


All of which makes for a super-sized portion of self-delusion.

  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:46 PM
Gary Beckwith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

Whatever dude. You can call Robbins a propgandist all you want. Photos
don't lie. Have fun eating meat.



Jonathan Ball wrote:

Gary Beckwith wrote:

i have no responsibility to prove anything to you.


You have an intellectual responsibility to support your
claims. That you don't even attempt to support them,
particularly after shrilly demanding that others
support theirs, indicates not just the intellectual
bankruptcy of your position, but a massive character
flaw as well.

The massive character flaw, of course, was already in
evidence, when you LIED about your basis for knowing
about cattle slaughter and dairy farm operations. The
flaw is revealed as even deeper than expected, when you
top-post and refuse to address the fact that you LIED.

you are obviously closed minded anyway.


Non sequitur, and not based on either logic or
observation. You merely don't like that I disagree
with you.

to say it is worthless propoganda shows your
point of view already.


Robbins is a polemicist and propagandist, not a scientist.

why should I waste my time. the truth is, it is
NOT worthless propaganda when people who have spent their lifetimes
raising cattle tell their stories. photos don't lie either.

Jonathan Ball wrote:

Gary Beckwith wrote:


Jonathan Ball wrote:



now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Prove any of this. Get busy.



I don't have to prove it, there are dozens of books already written,

Cite them.


with photos, first hand accounts from farmers, etc. read Diet for A New
America.

Worthless propaganda by someone who ought to know
better, and probably does, but willfully lies.




Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop
lying.


My point was not about WHERE they are slaughtered, it is about HOW. The
WHERE has nothing to do with it.

Liar. You claimed to know the HOW because you live in
farm country, which is a WHE

I know [how beef cattle are slaughtered], I live in
farm country and I see it every day.

You LIED. You do NOT see it every day. In fact, you
filthy liar, you have NEVER seen it.

Admit it: you LIED.



Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

You've never been inside the building, either, so you
don't know what you're talking about.

Predictably, no comment. You liked about your
knowledge of dairy cattle operations, too.

Just out of curiosity, is there anything you HAVEN'T
lied about in this thread?



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested,
heavy machinery again drives through the fields,
killing animals.


killing what animals? the bugs in the soil? this is rediculous.

No, dummy. Burrowing mammals, birds, reptiles. What's
"rediculous" [sic] about it?

  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:48 PM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.


"Gary Beckwith" wrote in message
...
whatever, I find it quite odd that people who eat meat have the time to
criticize people who don't even though it has nothing to do with them.
=================

More odd than ignorant bozos trying to make sure others can't continue to
eat what they want? Vegans are part of
groups that would tell others what they can or cannot eat. That makes it
everyones business, hypocrite.


it's just like being environmental, and recycling. I've heard people say
it's a waste of time to recycle because there's so much garbage. Or why
buy an electric car, or use solar panels on your house, when it won't
really make a difference.

The truth is, that if everyone ate vegetarian, there would be enough
food to feed the entire world.

======================
Hey, loser. there already is enough food to feed the world, and much still
goes to waste through spoilage.
eating meat has nothing to do with what the world does or doesn't have.


and if everyone used renewable energy
our planet would be inhabitable in 100 years.

I didn't start this discussion. I don't go out of my way to tell people
they should or shouldn't do anything. You can eat all the meat you
want. But don't litter this newsgroup with lies and point the finger at
people who are making personal decisions that have nothing to do with
yours.

===============
It's YOUR lys that are being discussed here killer. No one on this side is
lying.




usual suspect wrote:

Gary Beckwith wrote:
you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases

demand
for meat.


No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the
developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have negligible
influence on the lives of farm animals. What would improve the quality
of farm animals is if you were to consume animals raised organically and
in humane conditions. Such operations do exist. The fact that you have
chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

second, vegan is not just an eating habit.


No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

it is a way of life.


Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization. Such actions
become a "way of life" particularly when one ostracizes societal norms
and puts oneself on the fringe. VeganISM is a subculture.

many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA,


This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free
to support animal welfare programs and agencies -- which, incidentally,
are not concerns of PETA (Peta is for animal rights, not welfare).

that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.


Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to
do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected
in nearly every nation where it's been tried. The exceptions maintain
their anti-capitalism by force, not by popular choice.

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals.


Why?

That simply is NOT true.


Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when shocking
yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a farm
for yourself and see how animals are treated. Sick animals don't gain
weight, they lose weight; sick animals don't bring more revenue, they
drain revenue; sick animals do not save ranchers money, they lose
ranchers money.

The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives.


Care to prove that wild accusation?

They are confined to very small areas,


Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it
prevents disease in younger animals, injuries from aggressive or
territorial animals, etc. I realize in some parts of the country the
scale of farming requires intensive methods including confinement; this,
though, is usually a function of restricted land-use and economies of

scale.

pumped with hormones,


Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
ranching/farming to support this?

body parts removed,


Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta
or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you
promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.


Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and
I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither inhumane
nor painful for any animal.

snip

I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.


You do not know, and you probably live in the suburbs if you live near
any "farm country." Cattle aren't slaughtered out in the pasture,
nitwit. USDA makes sure of that.

Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam.


Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not. The reasons can be
manifold, but most cattle roam pastures as long as there's sufficient
forage for grazing.

I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.


How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the
"huge metal building"?

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?


Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on
animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
point is correct.

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".


So should you, Einstein.

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.


Davey isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but in this case he's
correct.

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.


If you do some research rather than reading propaganda from groups like
Peta, maybe you'll get the real facts.

But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.


No, he'll keep on about animals and life. He doesn't alter his posts one
bit. As for wearing blinders, what's your excuse, country boy?

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you.


Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder
for some people to eat what they want. Stop supporting anti-meat
organizations if you're so libertarian. Otherwise, stop whining when
others clear up your misunderstandings about ranching and animal

welfare.

Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though.


It's a free country and he can do that if he wants.

Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.


Especially if you're going to write bad sentences. Ick.



  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:48 PM
Gary Beckwith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.



rick etter wrote:

========================

Some are. Some are slaughtered right on the farms at smaller operations.
But, the fact still remains, they die a far more humane death than the
animals that die for your cheap, conveninet veggies.


can someone tell me what the heck you are talking about? that is
ludicrous. you people keep saying this but have not substantiated it a
single time. what animals are dying by the production of this organic
carrot in my hand? get real.


  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:49 PM
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

Gary Beckwith wrote:

Whatever dude.


The "whatever", "dude", is that you are a liar.

You can call Robbins a propgandist all you want.


Robbins IS a propagandist. He has no expertise in any
of the stuff he's written about. He's written a book
that tells you what you want to hear, and being a
gullible nitwit, you gobble it right up.

Photos don't lie.


Actually, photos DO lie, particularly when they are of
some atypical phenomenon that is dishonestly being
passed off as typical.

Have fun eating meat.


I do.

Have a rotten conscience, knowing that the production
of the foods you eat STILL kills animals, in large numbers.

  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:51 PM
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:55:21 GMT, wrote:

wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:


you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.



Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?


second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.



Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.


Meat eating does nothing to help animals, either,
regardless of what other things a person does.


Firstly it provides billions of them with life. After they are born, it provides
them with food, shelter, protection from predators, and medical care. Those
things do help the animals. Some of them still have horrible lives as your
budy pointed out, but some of them have decent lives as well as none of
you want to think about.

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.



Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't.


That's merely your opinion, and it is based on ignorance.


It's based on observation. The first time I went in a broiler house
I just wished that I could provide my own birds with such a nice
environment. Some small percentage of them get beaten on when
they get old enough to be aggresive, some of them get sick, but
the majority of them have decent lives.
Every day I pass hundreds of cattle grazing in fields and nursing
their young. They have decent lives. If they don't like it when it's
their turn in the stock yard--and no one has shown that they don't
like it--then it's the equivalent of other animals' and humans' final
days being worse than the earlier parts of their lives.

If you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.


If one thinks that it is horrible to kill an animal for
human consumption, then they indeed all have horrible
lives.


Well we don't all believe it is horrible to kill them for food. And
some of us think that the methods of slaughter are more humane
than the killing methods you veg*ns contribute to, and also that
they are more humane than starvation, disease and nonhuman
predation which your "AR" buddies feel are ethically superior to
human hunting.
So far no one has been able to explain exactly what is wrong
with killing animals for human consumption btw, they just say that
it is wrong. My prediction is that you can't explain it either, but if
you can, please do so.

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?



From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef.


You are a massive hypocrite. You do not eat grass-fed
beef. You do not make any effort at all to choose meat
from sources that treated animals better than the
average for their industries. You buy whatever beef,
chicken, pork and other that Piggly Wiggly has in
shrink-wrapped packages. You are not an ethical meat
eater.


It doesn't matter what I do or don't eat. I could seek out the
cruelest foods possible (I eat a fair amount of rice, and feel
that rice production causes as much death and suffering as
any type of food), and still point out that some types of meat
involve less animal deaths than some types of veggies. You
show desperation by bringing up something as insignificant
as that. I haven't said that I contribute to as few deaths as
possibe. Veg*ns are the ones who say that, and they are
dishonest when they say it.

A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.


You have no support for that claim. It's idle,
ignorant speculation.


Your failure to appreciate facts like that show *without any
doubt!!* that you care more about promoting veg*nism than you
do about human influence on animals. And that has been the
case with EVERY SINGLE VEG*N who has discussed this with
me in these ngs. By this time I have been taught by veg*ns, to
view them as being ethically inferior to their opponents, and
also to people who don't care one way or the other. Veg*ns
want to promote the false impression that veg*nism helps
animals when it does not, and that no types of meat or dairy
involve less animal deaths than any types of veggies. That is
quite disgusting and grossly inconsiderate of animals!!

From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.


you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.



They are all true,


One of them is completely insignificant: the one about
the meat and dairy industries "providing life" for farm
animals.


Well the next time I'm around a herd of cattle I'll tell them that
their lives are completely insignificant, and see if they disapear
or something. My guess is that nothing will change. They will
still be there, living their lives 24/7, just like all the other billions
of farm animals around the world, whether you "think" they are
all insignificant or not.

as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider.


Vegans not giving any consideration to this stupid
"providing life" argument is not out of a fear of what
might be discovered. It is based on a full-knowledge
awareness that there is nothing to consider.


Then there's no loss when they are killed, so there's nothing
horrible about it.
  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:52 PM
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

Gary Beckwith wrote:


rick etter wrote:

========================


Some are. Some are slaughtered right on the farms at smaller operations.
But, the fact still remains, they die a far more humane death than the
animals that die for your cheap, conveninet veggies.



can someone tell me what the heck you are talking about? that is
ludicrous. you people keep saying this but have not substantiated it a
single time. what animals are dying by the production of this organic
carrot in my hand? get real.


How do you suppose that carrot was grown, DUMMY? The
field was tilled by large machinery, for starters.
That kills burrowing animals and birds. During the
period the carrots were growing, pest animals were
killed in order to prevent them from eating the
carrots. Those animals are just as dead, whether or
not the means of killing them were "organic". Then,
the carrots were mechanically harvested, again by heavy
machinery driving through the fields, destroying animals.

But you don't only eat carrots. You eat rice and
cereal grains and all kinds of thing whose production
and distribution causes the death of animals. You
simply don't eat the animals that are killed. They are
just as dead, irrespective of if you eat them.

  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 06:53 PM
usual suspect
 
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Default Facts we should *not* consider.

STOP TOP POSTING!

Gary Beckwith wrote:
Whatever dude.


Is that really your best response to Jonathan's well-reasoned reply?

You can call Robbins a propgandist all you want.


The shoe certainly fits.

Photos don't lie.


No, but photographers often do. What you've seen are isolated instances,
and in many cases those instances are prosecutable (some of them were
pursued and resulted in severe punishment). The problem I have with some
of those photographs is that the same sets make the rounds. In other
words, the same horrific scenes are presented as though the problems are
systemic rather than isolated.

You're out there in farm country (haha, I don't believe you). Drop in on
a farm and check out the animals. See for yourself if they're
mistreated, confined, etc. Don't take John Robbins' word for it, much
less PETA's. Wtf do they know? They're safely esconced in their ivory
towers, living off your generosity (you said you support them, right?).

Have fun eating meat.


I'm sure he will. Do you ever have any fun?

  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2003, 07:01 PM
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default Facts we should *not* consider.

wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:55:21 GMT,
wrote:


wrote:


On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?

second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.


Meat eating does nothing to help animals, either,
regardless of what other things a person does.


Firstly it provides billions of them with life.


That is not a "help" to farm animals.



now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.


Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't.


That's merely your opinion, and it is based on ignorance.



It's based on observation.


It's based on ignorance. You are unqualified to judge
the quality of their lives, and you also are a shill.


If you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.


If one thinks that it is horrible to kill an animal for
human consumption, then they indeed all have horrible
lives.



Well we don't all believe it is horrible to kill them for food.


But vegans do believe it, and you are unable to counter
their belief.

So far no one has been able to explain exactly what is wrong
with killing animals for human consumption btw,


So far, you have been utterly unable to explain what is
wrong with preventing them from getting to live. You
clearly believe something IS wrong with it, but you are
unable to say what it is.



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?


From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef.


You are a massive hypocrite. You do not eat grass-fed
beef. You do not make any effort at all to choose meat
from sources that treated animals better than the
average for their industries. You buy whatever beef,
chicken, pork and other that Piggly Wiggly has in
shrink-wrapped packages. You are not an ethical meat
eater.



It doesn't matter what I do or don't eat.


It matters very much. It shows that you are a massive
hypocrite.



A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.


You have no support for that claim. It's idle,
ignorant speculation.



Your failure to appreciate facts like that show *without any
doubt!!* that you care more about promoting veg*nism than you
do about human influence on animals.


It shows nothing of the sort.

YOU have made a claim that involves a comparison, and
you not only have no numbers to justify the conclusion,
you have no theoretical knowledge that would make your
idle speculation likely to be accurate.



From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.



you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.


They are all true,


One of them is completely insignificant: the one about
the meat and dairy industries "providing life" for farm
animals.



Well the next time I'm around a herd of cattle I'll tell them that
their lives are completely insignificant,


I don't doubt that you would try to tell cattle
something like that.

"providing life" for farm animals does not create moral
bonus points. It is insignificant in the discussion.



as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider.


Vegans not giving any consideration to this stupid
"providing life" argument is not out of a fear of what
might be discovered. It is based on a full-knowledge
awareness that there is nothing to consider.



Then there's no loss when they are killed,


Yes, there is. There is the loss of life of a living
creature. As always, you keep getting confused between
the value of a potential for life, before an animal is
born, and the value of an actual life, after an animal
is born. No one else is confused about this. You are
confused. You give evidence of extremely weak intellect.




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