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What made me become a Vegetarian
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What made me become a Vegetarian
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:44:54 GMT, wrote:
wrote: > >> On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:16:01 GMT, wrote: >> >> wrote: >> >> [...] >> >>>>than it would for them to consider the fact that >>>>they could contribute to less animal deaths by eating some >>>>types of meat than by eating some types of veggies? >>> >>>Why do you think people ought to place any value on the >>>unborn farm animals' mere potential to "get to >>>experience life"? >> >> >> Meat eating provides life for billions of animals. > >You keep harping on that. In four and a half years, >you have yet to show why anyone should care about it. >No sensible person does. > >> Veg*nism does not. > >Irrelevant, except to you. > >> If you can think of no reason(s) for that aspect of the >> situation to be taken into consideration then you should avoid >> discussing it, > >If you think you have a reason *why* anyone should >consider it, present it. I doubt you have. > >> unless you can explain why it should *not* be >> taken into consideration. > >That's not how it works. YOU need to show why it >*should* be considered. From where I sit, and >apparently from where most opponents of animal rights >sit, it deserves no consideration at all. It is >meaningless. > >> As yet none of you have been able >> to explain why we should consider that meat production kills >> animals, > >That's patently false. > >> but we should avoid considering that it also provides >> those same animals with life. > >Because "getting to experience life" is morally >meaningless, while deliberately killing animals has >moral meaning to most people. Then you need to explain why it's wrong to kill animals. >>>> Why do you think they should avoid considering the fact >>>>that they can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but >>>>not by being a veg*n? >>> >>>Ummm...because it isn't a fact. >> >> >> Then explain how being a veg*n contributes to decent lives >> for farm animals, and for which particular farm animals. > >*Being* a "veg*n", whatever that is, The term is beyond your ability to understand, but most people don't have that limitation. >is not intended to >contribute to any quality of life for farm animals. >It's a big mystery why you can't see this. I pointed out the fact that people can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but not by being a veg*n. >>>Since it is not a >>>fact, there's nothing for them to consider. >>> >>>Why do you think that people who don't want there to BE >>>any farm animals ought to try to "contribute to decent >>>lives" for them? That's idiotic and contradictory. >> >> >> I don't. > >Yes, you clearly do. You want farm animals to exist, >and you think everyone should want them to exist. > >> What I point out is for people who want farm animals >> to have decent lives, *not!* for you people who don't want there >> to be any farm animals. > >No, that's a bald lie. You are trying to trick vegans >into wanting farm animals to be born and "get to >experience life". Interesting that you veg*ns consider pointing out certain facts to be a trick. Do you consider pointing out the fact that animals are killed to be a trick as well? >Everyone can see what a stupid >attempt at a trick it is. > >> >> >>>This nonsense about "contributing to decent lives for >>>farm animals" is clearly a ruse. Your poorly >>>disguised, clearly obvious goal is to try to persuade >>>people to eat meat in order to keep farm animals in >>>existence. No one is fooled by your shoddy ruse. >> >> >> Some farm animals have decent lives and some do not, just >> as is true with wildlife, pets, humans, etc. > >Non sequitur. No. You veg*ns want to trick people into thinking no farm animals have decent lives. YOU are the ones who are trying to trick people, and I'm just pointing out another aspect of the situation that you don't want to see considered because it doesn't support veg*ism. >> People who want to >> contribute to decent lives for farm animals should *not* be veg*ns. > >There's your shabby trick, again. It's just a fact thay you hate seeing pointed out, again. >> They should be more conscientious consumers. > >People who believe that deliberately killing animals to >eat them is immoral should not consume meat. People who want to contribute to decent lives for farm animals should not be veg*ns. |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:00:15 GMT, "Candi Bowen" > wrote:
>I have lupus, & with this condition for unknown reasons, a meatless diet >prolongs life. Read The Lupus Book by Daniel Greene, one of the world's >leading experts on lupus. They don't know the meat connection; maybe it's >the hormones, antibiotics, etc., no one really knows, but since I've been a >vegetarian for the past 6 years, I haven't been hospitalized, or near death. >Is this a good enough reason for you? > >Candi Any reason is good enough, but some people act as if *their* reason--or at least one of their reasons--is to reduce the cruelty and death they contribute to. Some even act as if they would like to contribute to better lives for animals, though that is rare. The point is that veg*nism does *not* contribute to better lives for farm animals, regardless of the influence it has on the health of different indiviual humans. If people want to contribute to decent lives for farm animals, they can *not* do it by being veg*n, and veg*ns should point that out when people come along asking about the ethics of a veg*n diet. But quite the opposite is the case...they never point that aspect out, and they oppose me for pointing it out as well. That shows clearly and without doubt that they are more interested in promoting veg*nism, than they are in human influence on animals. Best wishes to you and your success in dealing with your condition, regardless of your influence or lack of on animals. David |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
Candi wrote:
> Everyone EveryTHING. Use "everyONE" to refer to humans. BTW, you should use "who" rather than his for everyONE. > that lives with me was rescued; 2 horses, one starved nearly to > death by some meat eating person Was the meat-eating person going to eat his emaciated horse, or was that irrelevant point thrown in for no good reason? How about a list of veg-n parents who've made the news for subjecting innocent children to peculiar diets and causing starvation, disease, and even death? > (got him from Happy Trails, farm sanctuary in Ravenna, OH), Your point? > 2 chickens that the neighbor got & didn't feed (keep in > mind we have 2 acres not quite in the suburbs); Oh great, another Ohio hick. > they prefer my house go figure, Go figure what? > 3 kittens that a pregnant cat dropped off & 4 dogs (one's paralyzed, > should I perhaps eat him?). I don't know. Are you Korean? > I was animal caretaker for PigHoppers in > Michigan, fostered 3 pigs at home, & would never eat their flesh. Pigs make interesting pets, but they also make great bacon, ham, chops, and roasts according to people who eat them. Feral pigs, though, are a serious nuisance to farmers, ranchers, and homeowners (as they encroach upon towns and cities due to swine overpopulation). > The fact that I have lupus ....is none of our business. > & the experts say to avoid meat only reinforces my > personal beliefs; What experts? The only information I could find about vegetarianism and lupus came from self-serving activist sites. According to the Lupus Foundation of America's website, The cause(s) of lupus is unknown, but there are environmental and genetic factors involved. While scientists believe there is a genetic predisposition to the disease, it is known that environmental factors also play a critical role in triggering lupus. Some of the environmental factors that may trigger the disease a infections, antibiotics (especially those in the sulfa and penicillin groups), ultraviolet light, extreme stress, certain drugs, and hormones. http://www.lupus.org/education/cause.html Most (thought not all!) meat contains some trace levels of antibiotics, but penicillin's half life is short and it's doubtful it would have ANY effect on consumers. Other known criteria, like UV, stress, and hormones (see last paragraph on above link for why women are at higher risk for lupus) are far more likely to have an effect. BTW, the Lupus Foundation also says: Although much is still not known about the nutritional factors in many kinds of disease, no one questions the necessity of a well-balanced diet. Fad diets, advocating an excess or an exclusion of certain types of foods, are much more likely to be detrimental than beneficial in any disease, including lupus. Scientists have shown that both antibodies and other cells of the immune system may be adversely affected by nutritional deficiencies or imbalances. Thus, significant deviations from a balanced diet may have profound effects on a network as complex as the immune system. http://www.lupus.org/education/diet.html > and I'm healthier. Than whom or what? > 6 years ago before becoming vegetarian > I was hospitalized at least twice a year with pneumonia, Pneumonia? That's probably where you got the antibiotics, not from meat. > blood clots; Did they ever try to figure out why you were getting clots? > they were sharpening the blades to amputate my foot. Hick doctors. Next time go to a big city hospital, where the doctors are trained in medicine and have modern surgical tools. > Haven't had any problems at all in 4 years. Go figure. Your reduction in flare-ups is likely due to other factors, perhaps menopause (stabilization of hormones) or your attention to diet has led you to have fewer infections requiring less antibiotic therapy. Maybe you're not getting as much sun, either. > Big Huge Animal Lover Candi Big huge, huh. Another fat chick on the internet. Go figure. |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
usual suspect wrote:
> EveryTHING. Use "everyONE" to refer to humans. BTW, you should use "who" > rather than his for everyONE. Oops. You should use "who" rather than "that" for everyONE. Don't start up, Chelsea. |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
Candi Bowen wrote:
> ---------- > In article >, usual suspect > > wrote: >>I don't know. Are you Korean? > > > Hunky. Szekely Goulash; substitute dog meat for the pork. http://www.zoltech.net/h/szekely.html > >>>I was animal caretaker for PigHoppers in >>>Michigan, fostered 3 pigs at home, & would never eat their flesh. >> >>Pigs make interesting pets, but they also make great bacon, ham, chops, >>and roasts according to people who eat them. Feral pigs, though, are a >>serious nuisance to farmers, ranchers, and homeowners (as they encroach >>upon towns and cities due to swine overpopulation). >> >> >>>The fact that I have lupus >> >>...is none of our business. >> >> >>>& the experts say to avoid meat only reinforces my >>>personal beliefs; >> >>What experts? The only information I could find about vegetarianism and >>lupus came from self-serving activist sites. According to the Lupus >>Foundation of America's website, >> >>The cause(s) of lupus is unknown, but there are environmental >>and genetic factors involved. While scientists believe there is >>a genetic predisposition to the disease, it is known that >>environmental factors also play a critical role in triggering >>lupus. Some of the environmental factors that may trigger the >>disease a infections, antibiotics (especially those in the >>sulfa and penicillin groups), ultraviolet light, extreme stress, >>certain drugs, and hormones. >>http://www.lupus.org/education/cause.html >> >>Most (thought not all!) meat contains some trace levels of antibiotics, >>but penicillin's half life is short and it's doubtful it would have ANY >>effect on consumers. Other known criteria, like UV, stress, and hormones >>(see last paragraph on above link for why women are at higher risk for >>lupus) are far more likely to have an effect. >> >>BTW, the Lupus Foundation also says: >> >>Although much is still not known about the nutritional factors >>in many kinds of disease, no one questions the necessity of a >>well-balanced diet. Fad diets, advocating an excess or an >>exclusion of certain types of foods, are much more likely to be >>detrimental than beneficial in any disease, including lupus. >>Scientists have shown that both antibodies and other cells of >>the immune system may be adversely affected by nutritional >>deficiencies or imbalances. Thus, significant deviations from a >>balanced diet may have profound effects on a network as complex >>as the immune system. >>http://www.lupus.org/education/diet.html >> >> >>>and I'm healthier. > > > Than when I ate meat. Post Hoc fallacy. > Have you bothered with the book by Daniel Green as I > suggested? If you're as aware of The Lupus Foundation as you seem to think, Uh...he actually cited their web page. Where do you get off with this snide "as you seem to think" crapola? > you surely realize how political they are and are cautious in the extreme > when relaying information. It is normal and GOOD scientific counsel to be cautious in the extreme. > >>Than whom or what? >> >> >>>6 years ago before becoming vegetarian >>>I was hospitalized at least twice a year with pneumonia, >> >>Pneumonia? That's probably where you got the antibiotics, not from meat. > > > Lupus pneumonitis came before the antibiotics. > >>>blood clots; >> >>Did they ever try to figure out why you were getting clots? > > > Yes, the anti-cardiolipid antibody which oftens accompany lupus. > >>>they were sharpening the blades to amputate my foot. >> >>Hick doctors. Next time go to a big city hospital, where the doctors are >>trained in medicine and have modern surgical tools. > > > Hick doctors at University hospital in Ann Arbor, who were consulting with > the Director of Rheumatology at Cleveland University Hospital? > >>>Haven't had any problems at all in 4 years. Go figure. >> >>Your reduction in flare-ups is likely due to other factors, perhaps >>menopause (stabilization of hormones) or your attention to diet has led >>you to have fewer infections requiring less antibiotic therapy. Maybe >>you're not getting as much sun, either. >> >> >>>Big Huge Animal Lover Candi >> >>Big huge, huh. Another fat chick on the internet. Go figure. > > > Well, I won't be visiting here again. > |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
Candi Bowen wrote:
<snip> >>EveryTHING. Use "everyONE" to refer to humans. BTW, you should use "who" >>rather than his for everyONE. > > As a professional writer & designer, I use > the words I choose, when I want. You might be professional, but not a writer. >>>(got him from Happy Trails, farm sanctuary in Ravenna, OH), >> >>Your point? > > Bite me. I don't bite strangers, especially diseased ones. >>>2 chickens that the neighbor got & didn't feed (keep in >>>mind we have 2 acres not quite in the suburbs); >> >>Oh great, another Ohio hick. > > Akron is hooterville? Yes. I've been there. It has less culture than four ounces of fresh yogurt. >>>3 kittens that a pregnant cat dropped off & 4 dogs (one's paralyzed, >>>should I perhaps eat him?). >> >>I don't know. Are you Korean? > > Hunky. You mean chunky? >>>& the experts say to avoid meat only reinforces my >>>personal beliefs; >> >>What experts? The only information I could find about vegetarianism and >>lupus came from self-serving activist sites. According to the Lupus >>Foundation of America's website, >> >>The cause(s) of lupus is unknown, but there are environmental >>and genetic factors involved. While scientists believe there is >>a genetic predisposition to the disease, it is known that >>environmental factors also play a critical role in triggering >>lupus. Some of the environmental factors that may trigger the >>disease a infections, antibiotics (especially those in the >>sulfa and penicillin groups), ultraviolet light, extreme stress, >>certain drugs, and hormones. >>http://www.lupus.org/education/cause.html >> >>Most (thought not all!) meat contains some trace levels of antibiotics, >>but penicillin's half life is short and it's doubtful it would have ANY >>effect on consumers. Other known criteria, like UV, stress, and hormones >>(see last paragraph on above link for why women are at higher risk for >>lupus) are far more likely to have an effect. >> >>BTW, the Lupus Foundation also says: >> >>Although much is still not known about the nutritional factors >>in many kinds of disease, no one questions the necessity of a >>well-balanced diet. Fad diets, advocating an excess or an >>exclusion of certain types of foods, are much more likely to be >>detrimental than beneficial in any disease, including lupus. >>Scientists have shown that both antibodies and other cells of >>the immune system may be adversely affected by nutritional >>deficiencies or imbalances. Thus, significant deviations from a >>balanced diet may have profound effects on a network as complex >>as the immune system. >>http://www.lupus.org/education/diet.html >> >> >>>and I'm healthier. > > Than when I ate meat. Have you bothered with the book by Daniel Green as I > suggested? No, I don't have a copy of it on hand. > If you're as aware of The Lupus Foundation as you seem to think, > you surely realize how political they are and are cautious in the extreme > when relaying information. They're neither political nor cautious. You've read fad books written by vegetarian activists and you think that constitutes science. I can't change your mind about activism, but I can point to solid and reliable research. You're making cause and effect relationships that research not only doesn't support, but refutes. >>Pneumonia? That's probably where you got the antibiotics, not from meat. > > Lupus pneumonitis came before the antibiotics. Meat doesn't cause lupus or lupus pneumonitis. >>Did they ever try to figure out why you were getting clots? > > Yes, the anti-cardiolipid antibody which oftens accompany lupus. That makes sense, but meat doesn't increase anti-cardiolipiN antibody. Anti-cardiolipin antibody levels also have their own factors that aren't related to lupus, including insulin levels, diabetes, etc. >>>they were sharpening the blades to amputate my foot. >> >>Hick doctors. Next time go to a big city hospital, where the doctors are >>trained in medicine and have modern surgical tools. > > Hick doctors at University hospital in Ann Arbor, who were consulting with > the Director of Rheumatology at Cleveland University Hospital? Yes. Hick doctors. >>>Haven't had any problems at all in 4 years. Go figure. >> >>Your reduction in flare-ups is likely due to other factors, perhaps >>menopause (stabilization of hormones) or your attention to diet has led >>you to have fewer infections requiring less antibiotic therapy. Maybe >>you're not getting as much sun, either. You could've addressed these issues, Candi. I know a few people with lupus, and nearly all of them eat meat. Their flare-ups are rare, often years between complaints (sound familiar?). Anecdotal evidence, though, isn't proof of causation -- whether veg-n or meat-eater. Scientific studies just don't back up your claims that a veg-n diet is advantageous. I'm glad you're not suffering, though. |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
"Candi Bowen" > wrote in message . .. > > ---------- snippage... > > Well, I won't be visiting here again. =============== What a surprise.... |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:05:27 GMT, usual suspect > wrote:
>Candi Bowen wrote: ><snip> >>>EveryTHING. Use "everyONE" to refer to humans. BTW, you should use "who" >>>rather than his for everyONE. >> >> As a professional writer & designer, I use >> the words I choose, when I want. > >You might be professional, but not a writer. Stop trolling Jon, and use your real ID AGAIN U nutcase. . . . . . . . . The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... /( )` \ \___ / | /- _ `-/ ' (/\/ \ \ /\ / / | ` \ O O ) / | `-^--'`< ' (_.) _ ) / `.___/` / `-----' / <----. __ / __ \ <----|====O)))==) \) /==== <----' `--' `.__,' \ | | \ / ______( (_ / \______ ,' ,-----' | \ `--{__________) \/ I'm a horny devil when riled. pete who? -=[ Grim Reaper ]=- 6/97 .""--.._ [] `'--.._ ||__ `'-, `)||_ ```'--.. \ _ /|//} ``--._ | .'` `'. /////} `\/ / .""".\ //{/// / /_ _`\\ // `|| | |(_)(_)|| _// || | | /\ )| _///\ || | |L====J | / |/ | || / /'-..-' / .'` \ | || / | :: | |_.-` | \ || /| `\-::.| | \ | || /` `| / | | | / || |` \ | / / \ | || | `\_| |/ ,.__. \ | || / /` `\ || || | . / \|| || | | |/ || / / | ( || / . / ) || | \ | || / | / || |\ / | || \ `-._ | / || \ ,//`\ /` | || ///\ \ | \ || |||| ) |__/ | || |||| `.( | || `\\` /` / || /` / || jgs / | || | \ || / | || /` \ || /` | || `-.___,-. .-. ___,' || `---'` `'----'` I need a drink, feel all giddy...hic! |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
Pete wrote:
>>>As a professional writer & designer, I use >>>the words I choose, when I want. >> >>You might be professional, but not a writer. > > Stop trolling Jon, and use your real ID AGAIN U nutcase. This is my real ID, Malcolm/Pete/whatever. > The facts expressed here belong to everybody, You never use facts. > the opinions to me. You should keep your silly opinions to yourself. > The distinction is yours to draw... And quarter? > I'm a horny devil when riled. You should take a cold shower. > pete who? Too bad your parents didn't name you Richard instead. You're a real Dick. |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:51:32 GMT, usual suspect > wrote:
>Pete wrote: >>>>As a professional writer & designer, I use >>>>the words I choose, when I want. >>> >>>You might be professional, but not a writer. >> >> Stop trolling Jon, and use your real ID AGAIN U nutcase. > >This is my real ID, Malcolm/Pete/whatever. > >> The facts expressed here belong to everybody, > >You never use facts. > >> the opinions to me. > >You should keep your silly opinions to yourself. > >> The distinction is yours to draw... > >And quarter? > >> I'm a horny devil when riled. > >You should take a cold shower. > >> pete who? > >Too bad your parents didn't name you Richard instead. You're a real Dick. Sad dwarf, troll animal abuser. Do you abuse your son Jon, I wonder has anyone advised the social care dept about your propensity for deviancy. We already have a sister ****er here, don't need a son ****er too, or are you him as well Jon? . . . . . . . . The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... /( )` \ \___ / | /- _ `-/ ' (/\/ \ \ /\ / / | ` \ O O ) / | `-^--'`< ' (_.) _ ) / `.___/` / `-----' / <----. __ / __ \ <----|====O)))==) \) /==== <----' `--' `.__,' \ | | \ / ______( (_ / \______ ,' ,-----' | \ `--{__________) \/ I'm a horny devil when riled. pete who? -=[ Grim Reaper ]=- 6/97 .""--.._ [] `'--.._ ||__ `'-, `)||_ ```'--.. \ _ /|//} ``--._ | .'` `'. /////} `\/ / .""".\ //{/// / /_ _`\\ // `|| | |(_)(_)|| _// || | | /\ )| _///\ || | |L====J | / |/ | || / /'-..-' / .'` \ | || / | :: | |_.-` | \ || /| `\-::.| | \ | || /` `| / | | | / || |` \ | / / \ | || | `\_| |/ ,.__. \ | || / /` `\ || || | . / \|| || | | |/ || / / | ( || / . / ) || | \ | || / | / || |\ / | || \ `-._ | / || \ ,//`\ /` | || ///\ \ | \ || |||| ) |__/ | || |||| `.( | || `\\` /` / || /` / || jgs / | || | \ || / | || /` \ || /` | || `-.___,-. .-. ___,' || `---'` `'----'` I need a drink, feel all giddy...hic! |
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What made me become a Vegetarian
usual suspect wrote:
> Pete wrote: > >>>> As a professional writer & designer, I use >>>> the words I choose, when I want. >>> >>> >>> You might be professional, but not a writer. >> >> >> Stop trolling Jon, and use your real ID AGAIN U nutcase. > > > This is my real ID, Malcolm/Pete/whatever. The best is Bunghole. Malcolm/Pete used to call himself 'Bishop Mbongo', which I quickly fixed to Bunghole. He also used to go by 'John Thomas', which is British slang for penis. All of his names translate to Zero. > >> The facts expressed here belong to everybody, > > > You never use facts. > >> the opinions to me. > > > You should keep your silly opinions to yourself. > >> The distinction is yours to draw... > > > And quarter? > >> I'm a horny devil when riled. > > > You should take a cold shower. > >> pete who? > > > Too bad your parents didn't name you Richard instead. You're a real Dick. > |
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