Has anyone had the same cooked puerh in both compressed and uncompressed
forms?

What was the taste difference (was there any)? How long had it been aged?

Does one form age better than the other?

I have a golden melon that has become my favorite tea, but the mess and
resulting cleanup is getting old fast.

I personally have never seen both marketed side by side. I do know
that the exact same leaves often go into both products, the dried
fermented (usually 80% oxidized) leaves are simply stored for loose
puerh or the leaves are steamed and compressed. Both came form the
same source material but I have never seen them marketed side by side.

I personally prefer the compressed version because the lineage is
easier to validate. However most loose puerh I have seen is usually
made from the high leaf grades, but is not necessarily better puerh,
while many cakes can be lower grades.

I too really like golden melon cakes BTW.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:11:22 GMT, Dan Stromberg
> cast caution to the wind and posted:

>Has anyone had the same cooked puerh in both compressed and uncompressed
>forms?
>
>What was the taste difference (was there any)? How long had it been aged?
>
>Does one form age better than the other?
>
>I have a golden melon that has become my favorite tea, but the mess and
>resulting cleanup is getting old fast.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> I personally have never seen both marketed side by side. I do know
> that the exact same leaves often go into both products, the dried
> fermented (usually 80% oxidized) leaves are simply stored for loose
> puerh or the leaves are steamed and compressed. Both came form the
> same source material but I have never seen them marketed side by side.
>
> I personally prefer the compressed version because the lineage is
> easier to validate. However most loose puerh I have seen is usually
> made from the high leaf grades, but is not necessarily better puerh,
> while many cakes can be lower grades.
>
> I too really like golden melon cakes BTW.
>
> On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:11:22 GMT, Dan Stromberg
> > cast caution to the wind and posted:
>
> >Has anyone had the same cooked puerh in both compressed and uncompressed
> >forms?
> >
> >What was the taste difference (was there any)? How long had it been
aged?
> >
> >Does one form age better than the other?
> >
> >I have a golden melon that has become my favorite tea, but the mess and
> >resulting cleanup is getting old fast.

But wouldn't the cooking and compression leach out the caffeine and leave
the tannic acid making it more acidic? Cf. comments above regarding reuse of
teabags.

Leif

"Cooking" as referred to here means the oxidation or fermentation
process that is done while processing the raw tea leaves. This does
not deplete caffeine. This is very similar to the processing of green
leaves into black (red) tea except that the dried leaves are lightly
steamed to make them pliable and then compressed with great pressure.
This does not extract anything from the tea, the original caffeine
content remains intact for the most part.


On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:31:57 -0800, "Leif Thorvaldson"
> cast caution to the wind and posted:

>
>"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
.. .
>> I personally have never seen both marketed side by side. I do know
>> that the exact same leaves often go into both products, the dried
>> fermented (usually 80% oxidized) leaves are simply stored for loose
>> puerh or the leaves are steamed and compressed. Both came form the
>> same source material but I have never seen them marketed side by side.
>>
>> I personally prefer the compressed version because the lineage is
>> easier to validate. However most loose puerh I have seen is usually
>> made from the high leaf grades, but is not necessarily better puerh,
>> while many cakes can be lower grades.
>>
>> I too really like golden melon cakes BTW.
>>
>> On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:11:22 GMT, Dan Stromberg
>> > cast caution to the wind and posted:
>>
>> >Has anyone had the same cooked puerh in both compressed and uncompressed
>> >forms?
>> >
>> >What was the taste difference (was there any)? How long had it been
>aged?
>> >
>> >Does one form age better than the other?
>> >
>> >I have a golden melon that has become my favorite tea, but the mess and
>> >resulting cleanup is getting old fast.
>
>But wouldn't the cooking and compression leach out the caffeine and leave
>the tannic acid making it more acidic? Cf. comments above regarding reuse of
>teabags.
>
>Leif
>


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Mike,
for what I have understand, the oxidative process called "cooking" (I
actually prefere "ripening") is different from the enzimathic-oxidation
process of raw tea leaves applyed for black and oolong teas. It should
consist of a storing of the steam processed maocha (already fixated green
tea) at high humidity and high temperature conditions, that speed up the
fermentative-oxidation processes. For this reason it is also called
"houfajiao", post-fermentation.
L

"Mike Petro" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
> "Cooking" as referred to here means the oxidation or fermentation
> process that is done while processing the raw tea leaves. This does
> not deplete caffeine. This is very similar to the processing of green
> leaves into black (red) tea except that the dried leaves are lightly
> steamed to make them pliable and then compressed with great pressure.
> This does not extract anything from the tea, the original caffeine
> content remains intact for the most part.
>
>
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:31:57 -0800, "Leif Thorvaldson"
> > cast caution to the wind and posted:
>
> >
> >"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> I personally have never seen both marketed side by side. I do know
> >> that the exact same leaves often go into both products, the dried
> >> fermented (usually 80% oxidized) leaves are simply stored for loose
> >> puerh or the leaves are steamed and compressed. Both came form the
> >> same source material but I have never seen them marketed side by side.
> >>
> >> I personally prefer the compressed version because the lineage is
> >> easier to validate. However most loose puerh I have seen is usually
> >> made from the high leaf grades, but is not necessarily better puerh,
> >> while many cakes can be lower grades.
> >>
> >> I too really like golden melon cakes BTW.
> >>
> >> On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:11:22 GMT, Dan Stromberg
> >> > cast caution to the wind and posted:
> >>
> >> >Has anyone had the same cooked puerh in both compressed and
uncompressed
> >> >forms?
> >> >
> >> >What was the taste difference (was there any)? How long had it been
> >aged?
> >> >
> >> >Does one form age better than the other?
> >> >
> >> >I have a golden melon that has become my favorite tea, but the mess
and
> >> >resulting cleanup is getting old fast.
> >
> >But wouldn't the cooking and compression leach out the caffeine and leave
> >the tannic acid making it more acidic? Cf. comments above regarding reuse
of
> >teabags.
> >
> >Leif
> >
>
>
> Mike Petro
> http://www.pu-erh.net
> remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

While intrepidly exploring rec.food.drink.tea, Mike Petro rolled
initiative and posted the following:

> I personally have never seen both marketed side by side. I do
> know that the exact same leaves often go into both products, the
> dried fermented (usually 80% oxidized) leaves are simply stored
> for loose puerh or the leaves are steamed and compressed. Both
> came form the same source material but I have never seen them
> marketed side by side.

My local shop has both loose Puerh and Puerh Tuocha and Rosettes
(the latter being compressed into forms). But I can't speak for
comparison as I've only tried the loose leaf variety and haven't
been as enamoured by it as others.

--
Derek

It's difficult to comprehend how insane some people can be.
Especially when you're insane.

"Livio Zanini" > writes:

> [...puerh "cooking" vs. black/red tea oxidation...]
>
> for what I have understand, the oxidative process called "cooking"
> (I actually prefere "ripening") is different from the
> enzimathic-oxidation process of raw tea leaves applyed for black and
> oolong teas. It should consist of a storing of the steam processed
> maocha (already fixated green tea)

"fixated" meaning that the enzymes involved in "normal" tea oxidation
have been incapacitated?

> at high humidity and high temperature conditions, that speed up the
> fermentative-oxidation processes. For this reason it is also called
> "houfajiao", post-fermentation.

similar to the slower oxidation of green Puerh, in that the enzymes
responsible for black/red and oolong aren't involved?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

> > for what I have understand, the oxidative process called "cooking"
> > (I actually prefere "ripening") is different from the
> > enzimathic-oxidation process of raw tea leaves applyed for black and
> > oolong teas. It should consist of a storing of the steam processed
> > maocha (already fixated green tea)
>
> "fixated" meaning that the enzymes involved in "normal" tea oxidation
> have been incapacitated?

Fixation is the word used for translating the Chinese term "shaqing",
literally "killing the green", that refers to the high temperature process
used to destroy the enzymes naturally present in the row tea leaves and that
cause the oxidation after the harvesting. You can do it by dry-firing or
steaming. Once distroyed, those enzymes do not perform any further oxidation
and tea is "fixated" to the wanted degree of oxidation (for green or
oolong).

>
> > at high humidity and high temperature conditions, that speed up the
> > fermentative-oxidation processes. For this reason it is also called
> > "houfajiao", post-fermentation.
>
> similar to the slower oxidation of green Puerh, in that the enzymes
> responsible for black/red and oolong aren't involved?

exactly, but differently form the slow oxidation of natural aged Pu'er, in
"ripened" Pu'er there is a real fermentation performed by yeast-like
bacteria.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:15:49 -0800, Derek wrote:

> While intrepidly exploring rec.food.drink.tea, Mike Petro rolled
> initiative and posted the following:
>
>> I personally have never seen both marketed side by side. I do know that
>> the exact same leaves often go into both products, the dried fermented
>> (usually 80% oxidized) leaves are simply stored for loose puerh or the
>> leaves are steamed and compressed. Both came form the same source
>> material but I have never seen them marketed side by side.
>
> My local shop has both loose Puerh and Puerh Tuocha and Rosettes (the
> latter being compressed into forms). But I can't speak for comparison as
> I've only tried the loose leaf variety and haven't been as enamoured by
> it as others.

I hated puerh when I first tried it, but it's become something I really
enjoy. I think it's well worth giving another try. If you have an old
box that's been in your cupboard unused for years, so much the better.

I had a similar experience with Lapsong Souchong, BTW. Is it supposed to
be better aged as well?

Livio /25/04


>>> for what I have understand, the oxidative process called "cooking"
>>> (I actually prefere "ripening") is different from the
>>> enzimathic-oxidation process of raw tea leaves applyed for black and
>>> oolong teas. It should consist of a storing of the steam processed
>>> maocha (already fixated green tea)
>>
>> "fixated" meaning that the enzymes involved in "normal" tea oxidation
>> have been incapacitated?
>
> Fixation is the word used for translating the Chinese term "shaqing",
> literally "killing the green", that refers to the high temperature process
> used to destroy the enzymes naturally present in the row tea leaves and that
> cause the oxidation after the harvesting. You can do it by dry-firing or
> steaming. Once distroyed, those enzymes do not perform any further oxidation
> and tea is "fixated" to the wanted degree of oxidation (for green or
> oolong).
>
>>
>>> at high humidity and high temperature conditions, that speed up the
>>> fermentative-oxidation processes. For this reason it is also called
>>> "houfajiao", post-fermentation.
>>
>> similar to the slower oxidation of green Puerh, in that the enzymes
>> responsible for black/red and oolong aren't involved?
>
> exactly, but differently form the slow oxidation of natural aged Pu'er, in
> "ripened" Pu'er there is a real fermentation performed by yeast-like
> bacteria.

AHA*** There go those bacteria in which I place my complete pu-erh faith.
They wouldn't under different conditions by any chance cause a slime to
develop, would they?

Seriously, I've heard the yeast-like bacteria theory juxtaposed to the
nothing-but-oxidation theory so many times my head spins. But...I want to
believe.

Michael
>
>

I too struggle with this concept. On one hand every knowledgeable
person I personally know tells me that no inoculation of any kind
takes place. On the other hand I see a lot of quotes like this:

"The fermentation may be due to the organism "Aspergillus niger" which
is normally found in high counts in Puerh tea (up to 200 000
organism/g) (SANO, 1996). Aspergillus niger, normally found in Pu Erh
tea is a microorganism much used in industrial fermentation (e.g. for
citric acid manufacture), which, however, may also be pathogenic (by
aspergillosis of skin or lung). "

Perhaps there are organisms that naturally occur, and thrive, in
artificially induced post-fermentation that cooked puerh is subjected
to. Since the enzymes are killed by fixation in green puerh the
natural post-fermentation is simple oxidation and not enzymatic. Very
old green puerh is said to develop a white mold, I would love to know
the science behind it!


>AHA*** There go those bacteria in which I place my complete pu-erh faith.
>They wouldn't under different conditions by any chance cause a slime to
>develop, would they?
>
>Seriously, I've heard the yeast-like bacteria theory juxtaposed to the
>nothing-but-oxidation theory so many times my head spins. But...I want to
>believe.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Mike,

.....which pretty much leaves us where we started, which in any event is not
a bad place to be.

Michael



Mike 3/30/04


> I too struggle with this concept. On one hand every knowledgeable
> person I personally know tells me that no inoculation of any kind
> takes place. On the other hand I see a lot of quotes like this:
>
> "The fermentation may be due to the organism "Aspergillus niger" which
> is normally found in high counts in Puerh tea (up to 200 000
> organism/g) (SANO, 1996). Aspergillus niger, normally found in Pu Erh
> tea is a microorganism much used in industrial fermentation (e.g. for
> citric acid manufacture), which, however, may also be pathogenic (by
> aspergillosis of skin or lung). "
>
> Perhaps there are organisms that naturally occur, and thrive, in
> artificially induced post-fermentation that cooked puerh is subjected
> to. Since the enzymes are killed by fixation in green puerh the
> natural post-fermentation is simple oxidation and not enzymatic. Very
> old green puerh is said to develop a white mold, I would love to know
> the science behind it!
>
>
>> AHA*** There go those bacteria in which I place my complete pu-erh faith.
>> They wouldn't under different conditions by any chance cause a slime to
>> develop, would they?
>>
>> Seriously, I've heard the yeast-like bacteria theory juxtaposed to the
>> nothing-but-oxidation theory so many times my head spins. But...I want to
>> believe.
>
>
>
> Mike Petro
> http://www.pu-erh.net
> remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Mike Petro > writes:

> I too struggle with this concept. On one hand every knowledgeable
> person I personally know tells me that no inoculation of any kind
> takes place. On the other hand I see a lot of quotes like this:
>
> "The fermentation may be due to the organism "Aspergillus niger" which
> is normally found in high counts in Puerh tea (up to 200 000
> organism/g) (SANO, 1996). Aspergillus niger, normally found in Pu Erh
> tea is a microorganism much used in industrial fermentation (e.g. for
> citric acid manufacture), which, however, may also be pathogenic (by
> aspergillosis of skin or lung). "

I feel somewhat relieved to note that the same source
(http://www.behrbonn.com/literat/puerhteb.htm) goes on to say

This is irrelevant, however, if Pu Erh tea is used for the preparation
of hot water infusions (which after all is the customary use of all
teas).

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Mike Petro" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
> I too struggle with this concept. On one hand every knowledgeable
> person I personally know tells me that no inoculation of any kind
> takes place. On the other hand I see a lot of quotes like this:
>
> "The fermentation may be due to the organism "Aspergillus niger" which
> is normally found in high counts in Puerh tea (up to 200 000
> organism/g) (SANO, 1996). Aspergillus niger, normally found in Pu Erh
> tea is a microorganism much used in industrial fermentation (e.g. for
> citric acid manufacture), which, however, may also be pathogenic (by
> aspergillosis of skin or lung). "

Hi Mike,
where can I find a copy of the essay by Sano you quoted?
Thank you
Livio

"Livio Zanini" > writes:

> "Mike Petro" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> ...
> > I too struggle with this concept. On one hand every knowledgeable
> > person I personally know tells me that no inoculation of any kind
> > takes place. On the other hand I see a lot of quotes like this:
> >
> > "The fermentation may be due to the organism "Aspergillus niger" which
> > is normally found in high counts in Puerh tea (up to 200 000
> > organism/g) (SANO, 1996). Aspergillus niger, normally found in Pu Erh
> > tea is a microorganism much used in industrial fermentation (e.g. for
> > citric acid manufacture), which, however, may also be pathogenic (by
> > aspergillosis of skin or lung). "
>
> Hi Mike,
> where can I find a copy of the essay by Sano you quoted?

SANO, M. et al., 1986: Effects of pu-erh tea on lipid metabolism in
rats.
Chem Pharm Bull (Tokyo) 1986 Jan;34(1):221-8

Thank you, Google!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html