I recently had the pleasure of spending an afternoon drinking tea and
talking with a friend who knows a lot about the Pu'er industry.
(Sorry, he doesn't want to be identified.)

He brought along a non-compressed tea whose leaves were loosely
twisted and showed the occasional silvery tip. He didn't want to say
anything about it until I'd tasted it. (To the extent that this was a
test, I failed, as I really couldn't figure out what it was.) It had
something in common with a tippy Dian Hong (Yunnan red/black),
especially in the dry leaf aroma. When brewed, it reminded me at once
of white tea and some of the more delicate Chinese red teas. Its
aroma seemed better than its mouth feel. After three steeps, it was
pretty much played out. My friend then disclosed what it was:
essentially a Pu'er oolong. The tea's maker had taken sun-dried
maocha and subjected it to the bruising and oxidation normal for
oolong. As far as I know, this tea hasn't been sold, perhaps because
its maker wasn't satisfied with it. I was glad to have drunk it, and
if this was an experiment, I hope it will be pursued.

That afternoon, I found out something about a shu Pu'er that I love
(my friend is much less enthusiastic): the 2003 Wu Liang Mountain tea
from Fu Cha Ju (sometimes mis-romanized as Fo Cha Ji.) It's unusually
fruity - I could swear I taste quince - and has other interesting
layers, too. My friend says this tea was subjected to ultra-slow
baking, like some Taiwan oolongs, after a more or less normal
manufacturing process for a shu Pu'er.

The Chinese tea industry is pretty opaque to westerners like me, and I
think we tend to assume that the good producers, at least, follow
traditional methods unswervingly. That's a first approximation, at
best, I think.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lew Perin wrote:
> He brought along a non-compressed tea whose leaves were loosely
> twisted and showed the occasional silvery tip. He didn't want to say
> anything about it until I'd tasted it. (To the extent that this was a
> test, I failed, as I really couldn't figure out what it was.) It had
> something in common with a tippy Dian Hong (Yunnan red/black),
> especially in the dry leaf aroma. When brewed, it reminded me at once
> of white tea and some of the more delicate Chinese red teas. Its
> aroma seemed better than its mouth feel. After three steeps, it was
> pretty much played out. My friend then disclosed what it was:
> essentially a Pu'er oolong. The tea's maker had taken sun-dried
> maocha and subjected it to the bruising and oxidation normal for
> oolong. As far as I know, this tea hasn't been sold, perhaps because
> its maker wasn't satisfied with it. I was glad to have drunk it, and
> if this was an experiment, I hope it will be pursued.

As far as I am aware oolong-ized puerh do not age well. Good for drink
it now, bad for future consumption if you want to keep it. It lacks a
few things that a normal puerh would, among which is the long-lasting
brewing that you can subject a puerh to.

> That afternoon, I found out something about a shu Pu'er that I love
> (my friend is much less enthusiastic): the 2003 Wu Liang Mountain tea
> from Fu Cha Ju (sometimes mis-romanized as Fo Cha Ji.) It's unusually
> fruity - I could swear I taste quince - and has other interesting
> layers, too. My friend says this tea was subjected to ultra-slow
> baking, like some Taiwan oolongs, after a more or less normal
> manufacturing process for a shu Pu'er.

Funny you mentioned Fuchaju. I just literally came back from visiting
their store in Beijing. Clueless salespersons aside, I tried their
Wuliangshan puerh (sheng). I found it rather fruity, a bit odd,
definitely sundried though. I believe the baking you're talking about
is actually what would normally be called roasting for teas -- as in
roasting an oolong to make it more oxidized. The owner of Fuchaju is
well know for his skills in roasting everything from tea to tobacco.
He claims roasting puerh does something to the tea that makes it more
drinkable and better for you. I don't know. The sheng cake I tried
was so so.

Lewis 10/23/06

> I recently had the pleasure of spending an afternoon drinking tea and
> talking with a friend who knows a lot about the Pu'er industry.
> (Sorry, he doesn't want to be identified.)
>
> He brought along a non-compressed tea whose leaves were loosely
> twisted and showed the occasional silvery tip. He didn't want to say
> anything about it until I'd tasted it. (To the extent that this was a
> test, I failed, as I really couldn't figure out what it was.) It had
> something in common with a tippy Dian Hong (Yunnan red/black),
> especially in the dry leaf aroma. When brewed, it reminded me at once
> of white tea and some of the more delicate Chinese red teas. Its
> aroma seemed better than its mouth feel. After three steeps, it was
> pretty much played out. My friend then disclosed what it was:
> essentially a Pu'er oolong. The tea's maker had taken sun-dried
> maocha and subjected it to the bruising and oxidation normal for
> oolong. As far as I know, this tea hasn't been sold, perhaps because
> its maker wasn't satisfied with it. I was glad to have drunk it, and
> if this was an experiment, I hope it will be pursued.

Might I add without revealing sources that that tea tasted almost more "red"
than "oolong," but delightfully light in touch. As you say, aroma was
pronounced and pleasant.

> That afternoon, I found out something about a shu Pu'er that I love
> (my friend is much less enthusiastic): the 2003 Wu Liang Mountain tea
> from Fu Cha Ju (sometimes mis-romanized as Fo Cha Ji.) It's unusually
> fruity - I could swear I taste quince - and has other interesting
> layers, too. My friend says this tea was subjected to ultra-slow
> baking, like some Taiwan oolongs, after a more or less normal
> manufacturing process for a shu Pu'er.

Lew, is this one that we drank together a year ago and that another mutual
friend of ours described as "disgusting"? If it is, I'm fond of it. I like
teas that think outside the box. (Was that the right phrase?)

> The Chinese tea industry is pretty opaque to westerners like me, and I
> think we tend to assume that the good producers, at least, follow
> traditional methods unswervingly. That's a first approximation, at
> best, I think.

How did methods become "traditional"? Probably by being successful
experiments along the way. I have no doubt that over its thousands of years
of history, tea, like climate, changed more radically and more quickly than
we like to think. Opinions mine.

Michael

> Lew Perin wrote:
>> He brought along a non-compressed tea whose leaves were loosely
>> twisted and showed the occasional silvery tip. He didn't want to say
>> anything about it until I'd tasted it. (To the extent that this was a
>> test, I failed, as I really couldn't figure out what it was.) It had
>> something in common with a tippy Dian Hong (Yunnan red/black),
>> especially in the dry leaf aroma. When brewed, it reminded me at once
>> of white tea and some of the more delicate Chinese red teas. Its
>> aroma seemed better than its mouth feel. After three steeps, it was
>> pretty much played out. My friend then disclosed what it was:
>> essentially a Pu'er oolong. The tea's maker had taken sun-dried
>> maocha and subjected it to the bruising and oxidation normal for
>> oolong. As far as I know, this tea hasn't been sold, perhaps because
>> its maker wasn't satisfied with it. I was glad to have drunk it, and
>> if this was an experiment, I hope it will be pursued.

Marshal wrote
> As far as I am aware oolong-ized puerh do not age well. Good for drink
> it now, bad for future consumption if you want to keep it. It lacks a
> few things that a normal puerh would, among which is the long-lasting
> brewing that you can subject a puerh to.

Michael wrote
That makes sense and probably can go without saying
because the tea is essentially oolong in its making. We
can expect it to age as an oolong, which is not so well
unless we reroast it periodically.

Lew wrote
>> That afternoon, I found out something about a shu Pu'er that I love
>> (my friend is much less enthusiastic): the 2003 Wu Liang Mountain tea
>> from Fu Cha Ju (sometimes mis-romanized as Fo Cha Ji.) It's unusually
>> fruity - I could swear I taste quince - and has other interesting
>> layers, too. My friend says this tea was subjected to ultra-slow
>> baking, like some Taiwan oolongs, after a more or less normal
>> manufacturing process for a shu Pu'er.
>
Marshal wrote
> Funny you mentioned Fuchaju. I just literally came back from visiting
> their store in Beijing. Clueless salespersons aside, I tried their
> Wuliangshan puerh (sheng). I found it rather fruity, a bit odd,
> definitely sundried though. I believe the baking you're talking about
> is actually what would normally be called roasting for teas -- as in
> roasting an oolong to make it more oxidized. The owner of Fuchaju is
> well know for his skills in roasting everything from tea to tobacco.
> He claims roasting puerh does something to the tea that makes it more
> drinkable and better for you. I don't know. The sheng cake I tried
> was so so.

Michael wrote
Roasting/baking/firing/frying are all the same, right?

"MarshalN" > writes:

> Lew Perin wrote:
> > [...]
> > That afternoon, I found out something about a shu Pu'er that I love
> > (my friend is much less enthusiastic): the 2003 Wu Liang Mountain tea
> > from Fu Cha Ju (sometimes mis-romanized as Fo Cha Ji.) It's unusually
> > fruity - I could swear I taste quince - and has other interesting
> > layers, too. My friend says this tea was subjected to ultra-slow
> > baking, like some Taiwan oolongs, after a more or less normal
> > manufacturing process for a shu Pu'er.
>
> Funny you mentioned Fuchaju. I just literally came back from visiting
> their store in Beijing. Clueless salespersons aside, I tried their
> Wuliangshan puerh (sheng). I found it rather fruity, a bit odd,
> definitely sundried though.

Interesting that Wuliangshan raw, like the cooked WLS tea I mentioned,
has a strong fruity character.

Can you explain how you identify a Pu'er as sun-dried?

> I believe the baking you're talking about is actually what would
> normally be called roasting for teas -- as in roasting an oolong to
> make it more oxidized. The owner of Fuchaju is well know for his
> skills in roasting everything from tea to tobacco. He claims
> roasting puerh does something to the tea that makes it more
> drinkable and better for you. I don't know. The sheng cake I tried
> was so so.

So roasting increases the oxidation level of a tea?

I've long been confused by the way many people, when talking about
oolongs, conflate the amount of roasting with the level of oxidation.
You seem to be saying that this is no accident, right?

In my limited understanding of tea chemistry, the oxidation we're
talking about is accomplished by the polyphenol oxidase enzymes in the
leaves. And the PPOs function only when there's a certain amount of
moisture remaining in the leaves. Plus, the PPOs get destroyed by
heat beyond a certain level. So, put this all together, and you would
have *very* slow baking, at a temperature of approximately what?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Michael Plant > writes:

> Lewis 10/23/06
> > [...]
> > That afternoon, I found out something about a shu Pu'er that I love
> > (my friend is much less enthusiastic): the 2003 Wu Liang Mountain tea
> > from Fu Cha Ju (sometimes mis-romanized as Fo Cha Ji.) It's unusually
> > fruity - I could swear I taste quince - and has other interesting
> > layers, too. My friend says this tea was subjected to ultra-slow
> > baking, like some Taiwan oolongs, after a more or less normal
> > manufacturing process for a shu Pu'er.
>
> Lew, is this one that we drank together a year ago and that another mutual
> friend of ours described as "disgusting"?

No, but thanks for reminding me, because that tea, Jipin loose leaf
from Yunnan Tea Import Export, is dead-center on topic. It looks like
a very tippy Dian Hong, but it smells and tastes like no other tea I
know. The only thing I can compare it to is dried porcini (Steinpilz,
Karsten!) mushrooms. I'd love to know how it was made.

> If it is, I'm fond of it. I like teas that think outside the
> box. (Was that the right phrase?)

No, we say "teas that seep through the tray."

> > The Chinese tea industry is pretty opaque to westerners like me, and I
> > think we tend to assume that the good producers, at least, follow
> > traditional methods unswervingly. That's a first approximation, at
> > best, I think.
>
> How did methods become "traditional"? Probably by being successful
> experiments along the way. I have no doubt that over its thousands
> of years of history, tea, like climate, changed more radically and
> more quickly than we like to think. Opinions mine.

Of course I agree with you.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:

> The only thing I can compare it to is dried porcini (Steinpilz,
> Karsten!) mushrooms

Thanks for pointing that out to the ol´ shroom head, Lew
BTW: Excellent thread, keep it going folks !

Karsten [some XXX Ossi blend]




> Michael Plant > writes:
>
> > Lewis 10/23/06
> > > [...]
> > > That afternoon, I found out something about a shu Pu'er that I love
> > > (my friend is much less enthusiastic): the 2003 Wu Liang Mountain tea
> > > from Fu Cha Ju (sometimes mis-romanized as Fo Cha Ji.) It's unusually
> > > fruity - I could swear I taste quince - and has other interesting
> > > layers, too. My friend says this tea was subjected to ultra-slow
> > > baking, like some Taiwan oolongs, after a more or less normal
> > > manufacturing process for a shu Pu'er.
> >
> > Lew, is this one that we drank together a year ago and that another mutual
> > friend of ours described as "disgusting"?
>
> No, but thanks for reminding me, because that tea, Jipin loose leaf
> from Yunnan Tea Import Export, is dead-center on topic. It looks like
> a very tippy Dian Hong, but it smells and tastes like no other tea I
> know. The only thing I can compare it to is dried porcini (Steinpilz,
> Karsten!) mushrooms. I'd love to know how it was made.
>
> > If it is, I'm fond of it. I like teas that think outside the
> > box. (Was that the right phrase?)
>
> No, we say "teas that seep through the tray."
>
> > > The Chinese tea industry is pretty opaque to westerners like me, and I
> > > think we tend to assume that the good producers, at least, follow
> > > traditional methods unswervingly. That's a first approximation, at
> > > best, I think.
> >
> > How did methods become "traditional"? Probably by being successful
> > experiments along the way. I have no doubt that over its thousands
> > of years of history, tea, like climate, changed more radically and
> > more quickly than we like to think. Opinions mine.
>
> Of course I agree with you.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

[Marshal]
>> I believe the baking you're talking about is actually what would
>> normally be called roasting for teas -- as in roasting an oolong to
>> make it more oxidized. The owner of Fuchaju is well know for his
>> skills in roasting everything from tea to tobacco. He claims
>> roasting puerh does something to the tea that makes it more
>> drinkable and better for you. I don't know. The sheng cake I tried
>> was so so.
>
[Lew]
> So roasting increases the oxidation level of a tea?
>
> I've long been confused by the way many people, when talking about
> oolongs, conflate the amount of roasting with the level of oxidation.
> You seem to be saying that this is no accident, right?
>
> In my limited understanding of tea chemistry, the oxidation we're
> talking about is accomplished by the polyphenol oxidase enzymes in the
> leaves. And the PPOs function only when there's a certain amount of
> moisture remaining in the leaves. Plus, the PPOs get destroyed by
> heat beyond a certain level. So, put this all together, and you would
> have *very* slow baking, at a temperature of approximately what?

[Michael]
Since Marshal hasn't checked in yet -- his knowledge
superceding my speculations -- I want to suggest that
with Oolongs, sun (or other) drying is alternated with
baking. Thus, we'd get a bit of roasting, followed by
a bit of oxidizing. I've read that this process might be
repeated up to seven times. As you say, once the leaf
is dry, the oxidation process is over (until the leaf is
remoisturized through normal and/or bad storage and
takes up more [unwanted] oxidation). Now, let's here
from people who actually know what they are talking
about.

writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
>
> > The only thing I can compare it to is dried porcini (Steinpilz,
> > Karsten!) mushrooms
>
> Thanks for pointing that out to the ol´ shroom head, Lew
> BTW: Excellent thread, keep it going folks !
>
> Karsten [some XXX Ossi blend]

While we're talking state-of-the-art tea technology, can you tell me
if the Ossis use[d] anabolic steroids on their tea bushes?[1]

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
[1]Sorry, couldn't resist...

Michael Plant wrote:
> [Michael]
> Since Marshal hasn't checked in yet -- his knowledge
> superceding my speculations -- I want to suggest that
> with Oolongs, sun (or other) drying is alternated with
> baking. Thus, we'd get a bit of roasting, followed by
> a bit of oxidizing. I've read that this process might be
> repeated up to seven times. As you say, once the leaf
> is dry, the oxidation process is over (until the leaf is
> remoisturized through normal and/or bad storage and
> takes up more [unwanted] oxidation). Now, let's here
> from people who actually know what they are talking
> about.

>From what I understand -- and this is pretty rudimentary -- no tea is
ever 100% dry. There is always some moisture in there. Otherwise, I
suppose no tea will go bad?

For example, people re-roast oolongs before putting it away for
storage, because it dries the tea out further so that its quality will
be kept better over time. Oolong for long term storage before drinking
is often taken out to re-roast again after a few years before putting
back in the bottle/jar/whatever so that the moisture gets burned off a
bit more to keep it from going stale/bad.

So, some degree of oxidation must be happening in this period. Also,
the heat that is applied, I'd think, has something to do with it as
well. Since roasting is not exactly a high heat method, from what I
understand (versus, say, frying a thin layer of tea on a very hot pan a
la Longjing) there is plenty of time for the tea to further oxidize
while being roasted.

That's what I think anyway, because the taste of highly roasted
oolongs, when done well, is not from the charcoal. Sometimes you get a
charcoal taste, but that's actually poorly done roasting... good
roasting shouldn't have that, and also, a lot of times now they use
electric roasters, which entirely circumvents the problem of charcoal
taste. The heat does something to the tea, and other than enhancing
oxidation, I can't imagine what else.

Lewis Perin wrote:

> Interesting that Wuliangshan raw, like the cooked WLS tea I mentioned,
> has a strong fruity character.
>
> Can you explain how you identify a Pu'er as sun-dried?

I don't know what to say, other than that there's a certain "sun" taste
in the tea. Supposedly, you can find out what it's like by sundrying
say, a Chinese cabbage. This is from folks on Sanzui. I've never
tested it out, so I don't know.

Uneven colour in the leaves also helps -- if it's uniformly green, it's
probably been baked in the oven rather than sundried. Of course, that
is not a guaranteed thing.

I think sundrying gives raw puerh its unique taste profile.

Lew, I don´t know too much about those Ossis across the former iron
curtain, I was actually referring to this more local Ostfriesean tribe
over here in the west.
But as tea (coffee, bananas, zircon-incrusted tweezers, ...) has only
recently been introduced over there (about 17 years ago - correct me if
I´m wrong here) I guess they´d still be messing around with the first
generation of volks clones and that it would be pretty darn late for
the 2008 olympics.

Karsten [6th pot of that no-name XXX OstFRIESEN blend]



Lewis Perin wrote:
> writes:
>
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> >
> > > The only thing I can compare it to is dried porcini (Steinpilz,
> > > Karsten!) mushrooms
> >
> > Thanks for pointing that out to the ol´ shroom head, Lew
> > BTW: Excellent thread, keep it going folks !
> >
> > Karsten [some XXX Ossi blend]
>
> While we're talking state-of-the-art tea technology, can you tell me
> if the Ossis use[d] anabolic steroids on their tea bushes?[1]
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
> [1]Sorry, couldn't resist...

"MarshalN" > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
>
> > Interesting that Wuliangshan raw, like the cooked WLS tea I mentioned,
> > has a strong fruity character.
> >
> > Can you explain how you identify a Pu'er as sun-dried?
>
> [...the taste is different...]
>
> Uneven colour in the leaves also helps -- if it's uniformly green, it's
> probably been baked in the oven rather than sundried. Of course, that
> is not a guaranteed thing.

You're talking about unevenness within a single leaf, right?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

MarshalN wrote:
> Uneven colour in the leaves also helps -- if it's uniformly green, it's
> probably been baked in the oven rather than sundried. Of course, that
> is not a guaranteed thing.

I´d say this highly depends on the way the leaves are manipulated
[transported, tossed, ...] after they´ve been carefully plucked as
well as the specific kinds of heat treatment they´ve been given.
During those all important phases
[harvesting-withering-tossing/manipulating-panning-baking-...] almost
everything else boils down to temperature/time.
AFAIR freshly plucked leaves don´t benefit too much from being exposed
to intense sunlight [UV, temp.] for extended periods, but then I´m
talking blacks (reds) and Oolongs and this possibly - or probably
doesn´t apply in the all mysterious world of Pu-Erh.
[I have pics of some leaves that have been gently plucked, transported
and sundried for 2 days - nice, even green all over them, but keeping
all those factors in mind that´s not necessarily the rule].

Karsten [Contemplating a 7th pot of that Ostfrisean brain buster]


MarshalN wrote:
> Lewis Perin wrote:
>
> > Interesting that Wuliangshan raw, like the cooked WLS tea I mentioned,
> > has a strong fruity character.
> >
> > Can you explain how you identify a Pu'er as sun-dried?
>
> I don't know what to say, other than that there's a certain "sun" taste
> in the tea. Supposedly, you can find out what it's like by sundrying
> say, a Chinese cabbage. This is from folks on Sanzui. I've never
> tested it out, so I don't know.
>
> Uneven colour in the leaves also helps -- if it's uniformly green, it's
> probably been baked in the oven rather than sundried. Of course, that
> is not a guaranteed thing.
>
> I think sundrying gives raw puerh its unique taste profile.

Ahh, missed out that one ...

MarshalN wrote:
> Oolong for long term storage before drinking
> is often taken out to re-roast again after a few years before putting
> back in the bottle/jar/whatever so that the moisture gets burned off a
> bit more to keep it from going stale/bad.
> So, some degree of oxidation must be happening in this period.

Definetely so, the "goodies" oxidate, this is highly pronounced if
there´s more, than say around 4-5% of water left in the leaves and
should be understood as a different set of chemical reactions as
opposed to those happening in the leaves between plucking and final
baking [until packed]. While those last temperature intense steps
primarily focus on stopping any chemical and biochemical process that
has been artfully initiated by plucking, withering and manipulating
[tossing, rolling, kneading, ... ] those leaves, any later reactions
could be described as the tea "getting stale". I could throw in some
chemical specs but AFAIR mentioned something some time ago. No tea
master will market a tea [again: green, black, oolong] that still
contains any active enzymes. However oxidation doesn´t stop with
packing, that´s why most of us take great care of how we store our
teas. There´s also a third set of reactions taking place, right after
packing that tea, some masters claim that their leaves take some time
to mature. From what I´ve seen, this behaviour is most prominent in
First Flush Darjeelings, especially the newer, greener styles. Ever had
a chance to compare some freshly produced FF DJ with that same tea 2
weeks later [in the mind that is] ? Not only does it change in taste,
but it also looks completely different [some DJ FFs I´ve sampled where
packed as ... well ... greens].

> Since roasting is not exactly a high heat method, from what I
> understand (versus, say, frying a thin layer of tea on a very hot pan a
> la Longjing) ...

Depends on what you call high heat. Ever stirred some tea leaves in a
red-glowing wok with bare hands ? Funny experience.

> there is plenty of time for the tea to further oxidize
> while being roasted.

Definetely so. Generally spoken the thicker the leaves, the colder and
shorter the roasting, and the shorter and less intense the rolling
periods the more often you -can- go all over again [don´t need to,
depends on what you´re heading for].

> ... because the taste of highly roasted oolongs, when done well, is not from the charcoal.
Right, at least if you have the right stuff at hand, good, correctly
glowing charcoal doesn´t smell of anything, one reason why they still
use it these days.

> Sometimes you get a charcoal taste, but that's actually poorly done roasting
Bad coals, bad glow [tea brought in too early], dirty fire from stuff
[broken leaves, cigarette buds] that has fallen onto the glowing coal.

> The heat does something to the tea, and other than enhancing oxidation, I can't imagine what else.
During the first production steps the two all important factors heat
and time basically allow for control of the direction all those
hundreds of different [bio-] chemical processes move [think
taste/color/...].
Finally it slowly stops the enzymatic activity as well as other closely
coupled [bio-]chemical reactions and removes the water [if you´re
talking about the first production cycle here and not about
re-roasting].

Again, I could throw in some more details, but heck ...

Karsten [one more cup of that O-stuff and I´ll walk up that wall]


MarshalN wrote:
> Michael Plant wrote:
> > [Michael]
> > Since Marshal hasn't checked in yet -- his knowledge
> > superceding my speculations -- I want to suggest that
> > with Oolongs, sun (or other) drying is alternated with
> > baking. Thus, we'd get a bit of roasting, followed by
> > a bit of oxidizing. I've read that this process might be
> > repeated up to seven times. As you say, once the leaf
> > is dry, the oxidation process is over (until the leaf is
> > remoisturized through normal and/or bad storage and
> > takes up more [unwanted] oxidation). Now, let's here
> > from people who actually know what they are talking
> > about.
>
> >From what I understand -- and this is pretty rudimentary -- no tea is
> ever 100% dry. There is always some moisture in there. Otherwise, I
> suppose no tea will go bad?
>
> For example, people re-roast oolongs before putting it away for
> storage, because it dries the tea out further so that its quality will
> be kept better over time. Oolong for long term storage before drinking
> is often taken out to re-roast again after a few years before putting
> back in the bottle/jar/whatever so that the moisture gets burned off a
> bit more to keep it from going stale/bad.
>
> So, some degree of oxidation must be happening in this period. Also,
> the heat that is applied, I'd think, has something to do with it as
> well. Since roasting is not exactly a high heat method, from what I
> understand (versus, say, frying a thin layer of tea on a very hot pan a
> la Longjing) there is plenty of time for the tea to further oxidize
> while being roasted.
>
> That's what I think anyway, because the taste of highly roasted
> oolongs, when done well, is not from the charcoal. Sometimes you get a
> charcoal taste, but that's actually poorly done roasting... good
> roasting shouldn't have that, and also, a lot of times now they use
> electric roasters, which entirely circumvents the problem of charcoal
> taste. The heat does something to the tea, and other than enhancing
> oxidation, I can't imagine what else.

wrote:

> I´d say this highly depends on the way the leaves are manipulated
> [transported, tossed, ...] after they´ve been carefully plucked as
> well as the specific kinds of heat treatment they´ve been given.
> During those all important phases
> [harvesting-withering-tossing/manipulating-panning-baking-...] almost
> everything else boils down to temperature/time.
> AFAIR freshly plucked leaves don´t benefit too much from being exposed
> to intense sunlight [UV, temp.] for extended periods, but then I´m
> talking blacks (reds) and Oolongs and this possibly - or probably
> doesn´t apply in the all mysterious world of Pu-Erh.
> [I have pics of some leaves that have been gently plucked, transported
> and sundried for 2 days - nice, even green all over them, but keeping
> all those factors in mind that´s not necessarily the rule].
>
> Karsten [Contemplating a 7th pot of that Ostfrisean brain buster]
>
Yes, it definitely depends a lot on how the tea was handled before
"kill-green" happened, but at the same time, much of it happens also
during the kill-green process. You can, for example, tell when a tea
has been improperly "killed" so to speak, when some leaves look like
they were baked a bit instead of getting the proper heat to be
pan-fried. i'm talking about puerh, mostly.