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Barbecue (alt.food.barbecue) Discuss barbecue and grilling--southern style "low and slow" smoking of ribs, shoulders and briskets, as well as direct heat grilling of everything from burgers to salmon to vegetables. |
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Experimental larding
I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is cooked. I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. And glad to post the results. Ideas, comments, etc? -- You wanna measure, or you wanna cook? |
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"Bubba" > wrote in message
. .. > I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an > office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I > figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding > needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but > have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason > that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I > catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage > my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and > therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the > meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is > cooked. > I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. > And glad to post the results. > > Ideas, comments, etc? Bubba, I think you're playing with botulism and I wouldn't do it. When you bring the fat up to the point of liquification (nice, warm bacteria breeding temp), then inject it into the venison (oxygen-free environment), you're creating a potentially lethal product. Smoking (I refer to cold smoking - 90 degree temps or so) is in itself a risky business which is why heavy salt and nitrate cures are used...to kill the botulin organisms. As with sausage-making, all meat handling must be done in a clean and cold environment to prevent bacteria growth and the same applies to larding. If you mean to try your injection technique and then *immediately* hot smoke the venison, it might be OK, but I certainly wouldn't offer any assurances. Be careful, that shit is lethal. Jack Curry |
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Jack Curry wrote:
>"Bubba" > wrote in message ... > > >>I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an >>office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I >>figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding >>needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but >>have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason >>that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I >>catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage >>my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and >>therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the >>meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is >>cooked. >>I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. >>And glad to post the results. >> >>Ideas, comments, etc? >> >> > >Bubba, > >I think you're playing with botulism and I wouldn't do it. When you bring >the fat up to the point of liquification (nice, warm bacteria breeding >temp), then inject it into the venison (oxygen-free environment), you're >creating a potentially lethal product. >Smoking (I refer to cold smoking - 90 degree temps or so) is in itself a >risky business which is why heavy salt and nitrate cures are used...to kill >the botulin organisms. >As with sausage-making, all meat handling must be done in a clean and cold >environment to prevent bacteria growth and the same applies to larding. >If you mean to try your injection technique and then *immediately* hot smoke >the venison, it might be OK, but I certainly wouldn't offer any assurances. >Be careful, that shit is lethal. > >Jack Curry > > > > > > I appreciate your concerns, they are well founded, but I should have been more specific. The fat will be at close to 200 degrees (I will render the fat by boiling) when injected. I intend to hot smoke the venison to about 200 degrees. I want the collagen to liquefy, but need the fat to help keep the meat moist in the process. Thanks. Bubba -- You wanna measure, or you wanna cook? |
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Bubba wrote:
> I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an > office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I > figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding > needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but > have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason > that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I > catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage > my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and > therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the > meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is > cooked. > I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. > And glad to post the results. > > Ideas, comments, etc? > How about brining, to keep the meat from drying out while cooking? It worked very well on some wild geese; I haven't tried it on venison. |
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Bubba wrote:
> I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an > office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I > figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding > needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but > have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason > that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I > catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage > my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and > therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the > meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is > cooked. > I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. > And glad to post the results. > > Ideas, comments, etc? > How about brining, to keep the meat from drying out while cooking? It worked very well on some wild geese; I haven't tried it on venison. |
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Louis Cohen wrote:
> Bubba wrote: > >> I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an >> office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I snip >> > How about brining, to keep the meat from drying out while cooking? It > worked very well on some wild geese; I haven't tried it on venison. Louis, I thought goose, even wild, was very fatty? -- Mike Willsey (AMWILatCOMPORIUMdotNET) http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:43:50 -0500, Bubba >
wrote: >I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an >office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I >figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding >needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but >have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason >that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I >catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage >my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and >therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the >meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is >cooked. >I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. >And glad to post the results. > >Ideas, comments, etc? Bubba, In your previous attempts at larding, did you have a real larding needle? http://www.chefknifes.com/larding_needles.htm Back in culinary school, we used to lard roasts all the time with no problem...now most of those were beef, don't know if the texture difference with venison would make a difference, but it would be an option to try... -Chef Juke "EVERYbody Eats When They Come To MY House!" www.chefjuke.com |
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0600, Piedmont > wrote:
>Bubba wrote: > >> I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an >> office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I >snip >> I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. >> And glad to post the results. >> >> Ideas, comments, etc? >> > >Seems like a lotta work my friend! Someone else just asked about this >same a very short time ago. > >Subject: Venison, Sender: Dave, Date: 11/20/04, he got lots of advice. > >Just cover with bacon, make life simple! > >According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is, >completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or >bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat. That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years. Larry Noah |
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:31:19 -0600, Piedmont > wrote:
>Larry Noah wrote: > >> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0600, Piedmont > wrote: >> >> >>>Bubba wrote: > >snip >>>According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is, >>>completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or >>>bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat. >> >> >> That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years. >> >> >> Larry Noah > >Do you "bard" just the breast? or the whole bird? Actually, just the breast. I cook it breast side down, without barding, for about 1/3 of the time. Then I turn breast side up and cover with bacon. Larry Noah |
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:32:02 GMT, Larry Noah >
wrote: >On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:31:19 -0600, Piedmont > wrote: > >>Larry Noah wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0600, Piedmont > wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Bubba wrote: >> >>snip >>>>According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is, >>>>completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or >>>>bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat. >>> >>> >>> That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years. >>> >>> >>> Larry Noah >> >>Do you "bard" just the breast? or the whole bird? > > >Actually, just the breast. I cook it breast side down, without >barding, for about 1/3 of the time. Then I turn breast side up and >cover with bacon. > > >Larry Noah Clarification, I bard the breast SIDE which includes thighs etc. with the breast side up, I completely cover the top of the bird. Larry Noah |
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"Larry Noah" > wrote in message ... > > >According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is, > >completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or > >bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat. > > That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years. > Affectionately called "Burkey" in our family. Jack Curry |
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Bubba wrote:
> I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an > office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I snip > I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. > And glad to post the results. > > Ideas, comments, etc? > Seems like a lotta work my friend! Someone else just asked about this same a very short time ago. Subject: Venison, Sender: Dave, Date: 11/20/04, he got lots of advice. Just cover with bacon, make life simple! According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is, completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat. -- Mike Willsey http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw (AMWILCOMPORIUMNET) (@ between L&C, dot between M&N) |
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Larry Noah wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0600, Piedmont > wrote: > > >>Bubba wrote: snip >>According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is, >>completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or >>bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat. > > > That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years. > > > Larry Noah Do you "bard" just the breast? or the whole bird? -- Mike Willsey http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw (AMWILCOMPORIUMNET) (@ between L&C, dot between M&N) |
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Larry Noah wrote:
SNIP > Clarification, I bard the breast SIDE which includes thighs etc. with > the breast side up, I completely cover the top of the bird. > > > Larry Noah Good idea Larry, turkey's worst problem is dry breast. Sounds like you "got it covered!" (grin) -- Mike Willsey http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw (AMWILCOMPORIUMNET) (@ between L&C, dot between M&N) |
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Bubba wrote:
> Jack Curry wrote: > >> "Bubba" > wrote in message >> . .. >> >> >>> I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for >>> an office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang >>> on!). I figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't >>> own a larding needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine >>> with frozen fat but >>> have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no >>> reason that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea >>> being that if I catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool >>> enough to not damage >>> my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and >>> therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) >>> Moisturize the meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat >>> when the meat is cooked. >>> I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. >>> And glad to post the results. >>> >>> Ideas, comments, etc? >>> >>> >> >> Bubba, >> >> I think you're playing with botulism and I wouldn't do it. When you >> bring the fat up to the point of liquification (nice, warm bacteria >> breeding temp), then inject it into the venison (oxygen-free >> environment), you're creating a potentially lethal product. >> Smoking (I refer to cold smoking - 90 degree temps or so) is in >> itself a risky business which is why heavy salt and nitrate cures >> are used...to kill the botulin organisms. >> As with sausage-making, all meat handling must be done in a clean >> and cold environment to prevent bacteria growth and the same applies >> to larding. >> If you mean to try your injection technique and then *immediately* >> hot smoke the venison, it might be OK, but I certainly wouldn't >> offer any assurances. Be careful, that shit is lethal. >> >> Jack Curry >> >> >> >> >> >> > I appreciate your concerns, they are well founded, but I should have > been more specific. The fat will be at close to 200 degrees (I will > render the fat by boiling) when injected. I intend to hot smoke the > venison to about 200 degrees. I want the collagen to liquefy, but > need > the fat to help keep the meat moist in the process. > > Thanks. > Bubba I'd forget about taking it to 200. Just go to 140 with no added fat. Very nice that way. Easy too. TFM® |
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Bubba wrote:
> Jack Curry wrote: > >> "Bubba" > wrote in message >> . .. >> >> >>> I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for >>> an office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang >>> on!). I figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't >>> own a larding needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine >>> with frozen fat but >>> have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no >>> reason that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea >>> being that if I catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool >>> enough to not damage >>> my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and >>> therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) >>> Moisturize the meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat >>> when the meat is cooked. >>> I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this. >>> And glad to post the results. >>> >>> Ideas, comments, etc? >>> >>> >> >> Bubba, >> >> I think you're playing with botulism and I wouldn't do it. When you >> bring the fat up to the point of liquification (nice, warm bacteria >> breeding temp), then inject it into the venison (oxygen-free >> environment), you're creating a potentially lethal product. >> Smoking (I refer to cold smoking - 90 degree temps or so) is in >> itself a risky business which is why heavy salt and nitrate cures >> are used...to kill the botulin organisms. >> As with sausage-making, all meat handling must be done in a clean >> and cold environment to prevent bacteria growth and the same applies >> to larding. >> If you mean to try your injection technique and then *immediately* >> hot smoke the venison, it might be OK, but I certainly wouldn't >> offer any assurances. Be careful, that shit is lethal. >> >> Jack Curry >> >> >> >> >> >> > I appreciate your concerns, they are well founded, but I should have > been more specific. The fat will be at close to 200 degrees (I will > render the fat by boiling) when injected. I intend to hot smoke the > venison to about 200 degrees. I want the collagen to liquefy, but > need > the fat to help keep the meat moist in the process. > > Thanks. > Bubba I'd forget about taking it to 200. Just go to 140 with no added fat. Very nice that way. Easy too. TFM® |
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