I have recently started experimenting with sourdough baking. I have
reviewed the Starter FAQ contained here. Based on the FAQ my two week
old starter is active - I have excellent foam on top - and lots of
bubbles through out. The viscosity is similar to pancake batter. My
concern is that when I feed it - that the starter only rises by about
1/3 of the total volume. My understanding is that to be able to make
bread rise - that it needs to be able to double in volume. In the two
weeks - no feeding as resulted in that kind of rising. Any comments
would be helpful.

Regards
Francis

On 19 Jul 2006 17:00:16 -0700, wrote:

>I have recently started experimenting with sourdough baking. I have
>reviewed the Starter FAQ contained here. Based on the FAQ my two week
>old starter is active - I have excellent foam on top - and lots of
>bubbles through out. The viscosity is similar to pancake batter. My
>concern is that when I feed it - that the starter only rises by about
>1/3 of the total volume. My understanding is that to be able to make
>bread rise - that it needs to be able to double in volume. In the two
>weeks - no feeding as resulted in that kind of rising. Any comments
>would be helpful.
>
>Regards
>Francis

Hi Francis,

Assuming that you are accurately judging the increase in
volume of the starter it is possible that the hydration is
so high that it cannot hold the gas that it is generating.

The next time you feed it, try adding some extra flour so
that the starter is more "dough like" than "batter like."
Then, put it in a warm place, and see if it doesn't rise
more than you have seen thus far.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Francis,

Kenneth probably has it right. I always use equal parts (by weight)
flour and water to feed. If you are using equal parts by volume (1/2 c
water + 1/2 c flour) you have proportionately about twice as much water
as I would use, but it should not hurt the product too much. I use 1:1
in part to make it easy to calculate how much equivalent flour I have
in the starter (1/2 of the weight of the starter), but I am just lazy.
It also turns out that a stiffer starter will keep better (at least for
me) in the refrigerator for the 5 days between the time I put it away
on Sunday night, and the time I take it out again on Friday evening.

Try this: put 2 oz of starter + 2.5 oz water + 2.5 oz flour in a pint
jar; stir and cover with plastic wrap. Set it in a bowl (because it
should just overflow if things are OK) and let it sit on the counter
overnight. Put a rubber band around the jar at the top of the mix when
you start. Report back how high it gets above the rubber band (you
will be able to see a mark on the side of the jar at the max height
point if it doesn't overflow). If it breaks out of the jar, you have
no problem. Bake with it!

Cheers,
Doc

I agree wth both Francis and Kenneth. The viscosity is probably the
key. If Im not wrong, the foam you see on the top is the result of
yeast activity. And is, in my limited experience, my "cue" so to speak.


Try a pre-ferment with equal amounts of flour/water and Im sure you'll
do fine .-)
I usually make my pre-ferment in a measuring cup, and cover it with
thin plastic foil.
Just to be sure, I usually write down time and volume with a marker on
the foil.
Thats just becuase my memory isn't all that .-)

Have fun!

Doc wrote:
> Francis,
>
> Kenneth probably has it right. I always use equal parts (by weight)
> flour and water to feed. If you are using equal parts by volume (1/2 c
> water + 1/2 c flour) you have proportionately about twice as much water
> as I would use, but it should not hurt the product too much. I use 1:1
> in part to make it easy to calculate how much equivalent flour I have
> in the starter (1/2 of the weight of the starter), but I am just lazy.
> It also turns out that a stiffer starter will keep better (at least for
> me) in the refrigerator for the 5 days between the time I put it away
> on Sunday night, and the time I take it out again on Friday evening.
>
> Try this: put 2 oz of starter + 2.5 oz water + 2.5 oz flour in a pint
> jar; stir and cover with plastic wrap. Set it in a bowl (because it
> should just overflow if things are OK) and let it sit on the counter
> overnight. Put a rubber band around the jar at the top of the mix when
> you start. Report back how high it gets above the rubber band (you
> will be able to see a mark on the side of the jar at the max height
> point if it doesn't overflow). If it breaks out of the jar, you have
> no problem. Bake with it!
>
> Cheers,
> Doc

After trying all kinds of starters, I've had terrific luck with this
one (described in Maggie Glazer's Artisan Baking). It uses a minimum
of flour. I like using the metric system on my scale because it is much
simpler. Take 1 1/2 tps SD starter (10 grams) and mix it well with 1 TB
+ 2 tsp water (25 grams) water. Do this even if your starter is weak.
Next add about 1/3 cup (45 grams) unbleached bread flour.

Here's where I go by feel. I use a spoon to mix everything, and then I
add little bits of flour to form a ball that feels like wonderful
pliant playdough. I spend a few minutes rolling the playdough between
my two hands. Then, I flatten it out, put it in a 1 cup glass
measuring cup and cover the top with clear plastic wrap. I watch it.
About every 8 hours, I repeat the process, taking out 10 grams to start
again (throw the rest away). When the starter has quadrupled in my
measuring cup, I know it has enough oomph for my SD bread recipes.

Depending on the bread I bake, the evening before, I take about 20
grams SD starter and mix it with much more flour and water. At the
same time I do another refresh with 10 grams. I let it sit for about
an hour and then put in my refrigerator. On Ebay, I bough one cup
Pampered Chef bowls that have lids. I like these because it keeps my
SD starter from drying out. Also, I use permanent marker on the lid to
identify which SD starter it is (I have Finnish SD I use.)

I like to refresh my SD once a week, but I've found that even when I
had a hectic schedule, after three weeks, my SD starter kicked in after
I refreshed it every 8 hours for a day.

Hope this helps,
Diane

Thanks for all the great advice - I tried Doc's suggestion and after 24
hours the starter is flat with no growth. I think the starter is
inactive and I need to start from scratch again.

I will let you know how it goes. Thanks

Francis

Doc wrote:
> Francis,
>
> Kenneth probably has it right. I always use equal parts (by weight)
> flour and water to feed. If you are using equal parts by volume (1/2 c
> water + 1/2 c flour) you have proportionately about twice as much water
> as I would use, but it should not hurt the product too much. I use 1:1
> in part to make it easy to calculate how much equivalent flour I have
> in the starter (1/2 of the weight of the starter), but I am just lazy.
> It also turns out that a stiffer starter will keep better (at least for
> me) in the refrigerator for the 5 days between the time I put it away
> on Sunday night, and the time I take it out again on Friday evening.
>
> Try this: put 2 oz of starter + 2.5 oz water + 2.5 oz flour in a pint
> jar; stir and cover with plastic wrap. Set it in a bowl (because it
> should just overflow if things are OK) and let it sit on the counter
> overnight. Put a rubber band around the jar at the top of the mix when
> you start. Report back how high it gets above the rubber band (you
> will be able to see a mark on the side of the jar at the max height
> point if it doesn't overflow). If it breaks out of the jar, you have
> no problem. Bake with it!
>
> Cheers,
> Doc

> wrote in message ups.com...

> Thanks for all the great advice - I tried Doc's suggestion and after 24
> hours the starter is flat with no growth. I think the starter is
> inactive and I need to start from scratch again.

Why not start with a starter that is known to work:

http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/item...__Classic.html
http://www.carlsfriends.org (Free)
http://tinyurl.com/6vm9g (Fast delivery)

to mention several of many sources.

--
Dicky

wrote:
> Thanks for all the great advice - I tried Doc's suggestion and after 24
> hours the starter is flat with no growth. I think the starter is
> inactive and I need to start from scratch again.


Francis,
I am using a starter that I got from Ed Wood (http://www.sourdo.com/)
about 9 years ago (his San Francisco sourdough starter) and while I
have no idea if it is still the same stuff in the jar now that it was
then, I found it easy to get going and the flavor and character as
described on the web page (I also tried but no longer maintain the mild
French starter with the same results).

If you ask around, you can probably find somebody locally who has a
starter and will give you more than a pinch to get you going. It is
really amazing how many people maintain cultures, though a large
fraction do not bake with them each week.

Cheers,
Doc

wrote:
> Thanks for all the great advice - I tried Doc's suggestion and after 24
> hours the starter is flat with no growth. I think the starter is
> inactive and I need to start from scratch again.

You don't need to get crazy and buy starter, as one poster said,
someone in you area probably has some. If you're willing to invest no
effort and no time, you can, of course, start your own. It's dead easy.
Works for just about everyone.

1) get one cup's worth of rye or wheat berries from the local health
food store

2) mill or grind in a blender or spice mill or whatever... about 2
tablespoons worth of berries
you do not need fine powder, a mixture of flour dust and meal will do.
You can even soak and mash the berries with a fork or spoon. The
critters won't care.

3) add just enough water* to form a small, firm, ball of dough.

4) put the dough ball, probably somewhere between the size of a ping
pong ball and a golf ball in a small covered glass container

5) let it sit in a cool place for 2 days... not the refrigerator

6) peel the outside dry "skin", discard it, and knead the remainder
with some more freshly ground berries plus water

7) repeat step 6 about 2-3 more times. (every other day, or daily if it
is warm)

You should note a shift in the smell over time. First it will smell
like fresh flour, then it will smell vegetal, then a bit like vinegar,
then like cider. The scent marks your progress. You will know when it's
done by smell... also the dough ball will get gassy and you will see
expansion cracks in the "skin".

The berries come with all the microbes. There's no catching stuff from
the air. Store flour does not work nearly as well, it gets heated and
dried during the milling process.

* if your water is heavily treated, let it sit and gas off. Most
municipal water I've used has been fine.

.... and if we don't have a "local" health food store?

If you have to order wheat or rye berries, you may as well order a known
starter.





> If you're willing to invest no
> effort and no time, you can, of course, start your own.
>
> 1) get one cup's worth of rye or wheat berries from the local health
> food store
>
> 2) mill or grind in a blender or spice mill or whatever... about 2
> tablespoons worth of berries

Rina wrote:
> ... and if we don't have a "local" health food store?
>
> If you have to order wheat or rye berries, you may as well order a known
> starter.

That would be true... though it's hard to imagine a place in North
America where you cannot get grain locally, if not a grocery or health
store, then perhaps a farm-feed operation. Well maybe Key West... I
admit that health stores as a genre may be problematic, the last one I
was in carried more supplements than anything else. Perhaps I should
have said "natural foods" instead. My bad.

As Jeff posted, his whole grain rye flour worked. If you have a degree
in cryptology you may even be able to ascertain how old the product is
<g>.

Rina wrote:
> ... and if we don't have a "local" health food store?
>
> If you have to order wheat or rye berries, you may as well order a known
> starter.

Whole wheat flour (and/or rye flour) from the grocery store works well, too.

Will wrote:

> 5) let it sit in a cool place for 2 days... not the refrigerator

I lived in a normal place and tried making a whole wheat starter. After
a couple days it smelled so terrible I threw it out. Fast forward a year
or two and now I live in a hot place. The other week I found I had
neglected my starter so much (a couple months) that I might as well
start from scratch.

I put some whole wheat flour and water in a clear container with a
light-fitting lid. The next day it was bubbling and smelled like starter
(not the terrible odor I had the time before). When the starter was 36
hours old I used it to bake this loaf which was light, fluffy, had a
nice mild sourdough taste, and rose exceptionally well:

http://flickr.com/photos/fugalh/191364637/

(Sorry there's no crumb pic, we took it to a dinner party and it was
devoured)

There were two differences in these two attempts. The first time I
ground my own whole wheat flour and room temperature was about 72. The
second time I use some king arthur whole wheat flour and room
temperature was 80-90. The flour is a confounding factor (and perhaps
the water), but I think it's reasonable to say a warm temperature helps
the process along.

So why let it sit in a cool place? Because San Francisco gets cool? Or
do you have a specific reason?

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:00:06 -0600, Hans Fugal
> wrote:

>Whole wheat flour (and/or rye flour) from the grocery store works well, too.

....as does white flour.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...

> >Whole wheat flour (and/or rye flour) from the grocery store works well, too.
> ...as does white flour.

Almost any flour works if you sniff it enough. This is related to
the property of the nostrils of being able to collect and concentrate
airborne smut, not all of which finds its way into the alimentary
system.

Here is a simple experiment. Shake out, or otherwise collect, some
of the crud which collects under the keys of your computer keyboard.
Use it to seed some flour batter. Use white wheat flour from a new
sack. Include an unseeded control.

I have professionally studied keyboard debris. Among other things,
one finds dust mites eating epithelial detritus. (Once I demonstrated
that to some minor scientists, using stuff from my keyboard. Lost
some friends that way, but they were dummies anyway.)

I thought you might be interested in that. Maybe some one will
develop a Lysol product for computer keyboards.

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
news:gQJxg.11294$yN3.1728@trnddc04...

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...

> >Whole wheat flour (and/or rye flour) from the grocery store works well,
too.
> ...as does white flour.

Almost any flour works if you sniff it enough. This is related to
the property of the nostrils of being able to collect and concentrate
airborne smut, not all of which finds its way into the alimentary
system.

Here is a simple experiment. Shake out, or otherwise collect, some
of the crud which collects under the keys of your computer keyboard.
Use it to seed some flour batter. Use white wheat flour from a new
sack. Include an unseeded control.

I have professionally studied keyboard debris. Among other things,
one finds dust mites eating epithelial detritus. (Once I demonstrated
that to some minor scientists, using stuff from my keyboard. Lost
some friends that way, but they were dummies anyway.)

I thought you might be interested in that. Maybe some one will
develop a Lysol product for computer keyboards.

--
Dicky

ty dick, i really needed a laugh tonight

dan w

"dan w" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> news:gQJxg.11294$yN3.1728@trnddc04...

> Almost any flour works if you sniff it enough.

> [ ... ]

> ty dick, i really needed a laugh tonight

It is not just funny. What gives me a big laugh is to see people
who think their cultures are pure sticking their noses right in.

Microbiologists, sniffing their microbiological stuff, hold the stuff
out front, and fan whatever odors towards their face with whichever
hand is not holding the stuff.

--
Dicky

Hans Fugal wrote:

> So why let it sit in a cool place? Because San Francisco gets cool? Or
> do you have a specific reason?

A good question.

You can make starters from a wide temperature range. Obviously either
extreme, very cool or very warm, limits the variety of microbes in the
starter colony. I choose cooler temperatures because I use freshly
milled whole wheat and the germ oils degrade quickly.